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aikidofan
07-18-2004, 01:26 AM
hello,

I was wondering if someone here could outline the general ground fighting strategies employed by aikido.

Also how do they differ from other styles approach to ground fighting

thanks

KamiKaze_Evolution
07-18-2004, 03:24 AM
Aikido has no ground fighting, that isn't BJJ. OK? Aikido has sitting techniques beside standing techniques. That's all! :ai: :ki: :do:

shihonage
07-18-2004, 03:36 AM
Aikido's groundfighting consists of applying standing techniques while kneeling.

DaveO
07-18-2004, 04:13 AM
Aikido's groundfighting consists of applying standing techniques while kneeling.

...which most decidedly is not groundfighting.
:)
Aikido is a standing art; though many of its concepts can be used at ground level - though if that happens; you're straying into BJJ/wrestling territory. Which is a good thing - the right tool for the right job. :)

mj
07-18-2004, 04:41 AM
Groundfighting is the current 'in thing'.

No-one can doubt its effectiveness but there is something to be said for nice posture :)

Anyway...which groundwork do you mean? There is BJJ, MMA, Judo and so on.

darin
07-18-2004, 09:54 AM
I know that in Yoseikan Aikido they teach or used to teach judo ground fighting techniques. I haven't seen any ground fighting in other styles but quite a few Japanese aikido masters are also black belts in Judo.

csinca
07-18-2004, 10:08 AM
Peter,

My general strategy is to apply the same principles I use standing up.

The major principles that I apply are: don't get hit, relaxation, moving around the power, posture, skeletal locks, and triagulation. There are a few more but these are the main ones that I use all the time.

A quick example, many an aikido class are spent learning ikkyo, nikkyo sankyo etc... well these are nothing more than skeletal locks starting at the wrist. In a BJJ class you may work on a keylock or an armbar, well these are nothing more than skeletal locks.

By remaining relaxed and moving around the opponents power you are trying to
1. avoid losing (don't get hit, or in this case choked out or have something snapped)
2. improve your position (balance and triangulation)
3. End the encounter (skeletal locks)

Of course there is a lot more but that is the general outline I start from

Good luck

Chris

vanstretch
07-18-2004, 10:48 AM
I like the idea that anything can be considered an aikido technique. By this, I mean that one has the OPTION of applying more or less force in whatever positon we end up in. Isn't that the point of all this?

Tharis
07-18-2004, 12:19 PM
I like the idea that anything can be considered an aikido technique. By this, I mean that one has the OPTION of applying more or less force in whatever positon we end up in. Isn't that the point of all this?

I'm inclined to agree. I tend to think that the spirit of the application is what makes technique aikido, rather than the specific form. Generally, if you can end a conflict through de-escalation or immobilization, then it's aiki. Even in groundfighting, which generally, in my experience, isn't taught in traditional aikido (coming from an aikikai dojo, of course).

xuzen
07-18-2004, 11:15 PM
Dear all,

Here is my $ 0.02 thought wrt to ground fighting:

Aikido was derived from weapomanship. Many of the movements and techniques were improvised from yari, juken and kenjutsu. Hence ground technique is never aikido forte. In a system, if you were to incorporate all aspect of fighting, then you will have more than a lifetime to learn. I have said before, in this forum, Dr Jigaro Kano and Osensei Ueshiba took what was a very large syllabus (from various sect/school of jujitsu) and distilled them to retain what was in their capacity the best workable technique.

In any weoponmanship, the idea was the frist strike is all that was needed to finish your adversary. It also serve a functional purpose to avoid ground grappling because in combat, it is most likely one may face multiple aggressor. Grappling on the ground would be suicide. While you are grappling with one, many more would be there ready to hack you to pieces. Also, aikido maintains that you have very light footwork, for the numerous tenkan and irimi for avoidance and counter attack.

Should any unfortunate practitioner were to face aggressor in real life, IMO practice atemi more than, ground fighting, because real fighting is about getting out alive, not trying to determine who can grapple better. That would be more for showmanship/sport.

Truly,
Boon

DaveO
07-18-2004, 11:41 PM
Very true; Boon - but what do you do if an attacker takes you down? I personally hate groundfighting - it's dirty and disgusting rolling around on a beer-soaked floor (trust me on this) and practice generally involves wrapping yourself up with scantily clad sweaty guys. AAAACK!!! (LOL!)
Doesn't stop me from knowing how to do it - it's a skillset that can save your life.

BTW; an earlier post said: "I like the idea that anything can be considered an aikido technique. By this, I mean that one has the OPTION of applying more or less force in whatever positon we end up in. Isn't that the point of all this?" Heh heh - I like the thought of someone trying to tell a Judoka what he's really doing is aikido. Two different arts; two different styles, two different skillsets and reasons.

vanstretch
07-19-2004, 01:01 AM
Organ,no one is trying to tell a (judoka) or anybody anything. I refer you to Mr. Thomas Harris response and to rethink your position. Please dont take this as something that you have to rebut or as a personal attack on your ego either-no response is required. Take it easy friend.

vanstretch
07-19-2004, 01:37 AM
PS; take chokes for example; you could crush the larynx and cause a tremedous amount of damage and/or end the individual permanently. Or you can use the arm to give pressure to both sides of the neck and put the guy to sleep for a few seconds. Reiterating the point that its the OPTION to cause less harm to the person. We learned this last week in Aikido class from a guest who was an aikido guy who also grapples and was a cage guy. This is where I got the idea that any thing can have aikido technique WITHIN it. later all.

Ian Williams
07-19-2004, 03:32 AM
with respect, this is a good example of why some fights end up on the ground

Gif Image (700K) (http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/452/HOLD_DAT.gif)

DaveO
07-19-2004, 03:45 AM
Well first; if I offended anyone with my comment; I apologize. (And BTW - my name is Dave; not Organ. That does offend.)
Second; your point is valid; that anything that follows aiki principles can preseumably be used in aikido. However; I tend to draw a line at groundfighting - it's a totally different dynamic than fighting upright. The division of striking/redirective/grappling arts is fairly well established; and attempting to use one to describe another without a good understanding of both can get one into trouble. Aikido is not made for groundfighting; attempting to use it as such can be problematic.
For that reason; when I teach ASD on Sundays, I use a blend of groundfighting, Jiu-jitsu, karate and raw SD technique to explain concepts, demonstrate situations, show position and test tactical movement. When I do that; I make damn good 'n sure I tell the folks I'm teaching 'this is not aikido - this is JJ' or 'this is raw SD' etc. so that the separation is firmly held in place. Particularly when dealing with newer students; if this separation is not kept clear it can cause confusion as to what an 'aiki principle' actually is - saying something is aikido is a lot easier than determining if it actually is aikido. Remember; while considering the similarities; one must also consider the differences.
Aikido is aikido; Judo is Judo; even if you study both - and many do - and blend both arts into your defensive repetoir; it's important to understand the divisions between the arts.
Lol - and just in point of fact; I have seen aikido people try to tell practicioners of other arts that 'what they're doing is really aikido'. The judoka in question were rather offended - and rightly so; IMO. :D

Cheers!

Ian Upstone
07-19-2004, 04:36 AM
Thought I'd chuck in my opinion - please disregard if you don't agree!

To answer the original questions, I would say there are no ground fighting strategies employed by aikido - and this is how it differs!

The old adage "if you're any good at aikido, you won't end up on the ground!" comes to mind. Which although idealistic, (and a little blinkered maybe) seems to make sense.

Although ground skills are very very useful, no one wants to end up on the ground in the first place (unless in a controlled competition - against one person - who you know you can defeat on the ground), as it this is where your attacker (and of course, his friends, or even bystanders) will put the boot (or worse) in.

IMO the chap being clobbered in Ian's link seemed so busy sizing up to the guy in front of him, that his awareness of everything else around him was ignored, and he suffered for it.

...and I don't think that particular example would end up in a 'groundfight'. More like a severe kicking to someone when they're down.

I'd say the best strategy is getting up as soon as you possibly can, or even, better still - not ending up on the ground in the first place.

(runs before a wave of groundwork experts jump in to disagree...)

James Finley
07-19-2004, 04:37 AM
Hi. In my opinion, even if you choose not to study ground fighting (for whatever reason), you owe it to yourself to learn two escapes: an escape from a headlock on the ground and an escape from the full mount (opponent has you mounted). At least if the fight does go to the ground, you will have the ability to escape and give yourself a fighting chance. Adding the rear strangle might be useful in case he gives his neck. In my experience, if you are mounted in a real fight, you will have mere seconds to escape before you will be so severely beaten that you will be unable to fight back effectively. Work these two escapes relentlessly until you can do them in your sleep. James.

Michael Neal
07-19-2004, 06:15 AM
I'd say the best strategy is getting up as soon as you possibly can, or even, better still - not ending up on the ground in the first place

That is a good strategy but it is not always going to work that way

Ian Upstone
07-19-2004, 06:56 AM
You're right Michael. It's not always going to work that way, but like you say, it's a good plan to have!

As for me, I would try to stay on my feet at all costs, as I know that if I went down, I'd probably stay down, and that would be the end of me. Hopefully studying aikido will increase my chances of staying up in the first place...

I think that's also perhaps why many people who study arts with no ground fighting make a point of trying to learn some in case it does happen. And I don't think it's about people doubting aikido - it's about doubting their own ability at it.

nothingness
07-19-2004, 09:32 AM
Just my 2 cents worth:

I assume that one is good at a close range fight as an Aikidoka. Learning newaza is not that hard. There is a saying in Judo :"Newaza one year, nagewaza ten years." I don't think you have to be really proficient in ground fight to learn to escape from it. Learning the basic will be sufficient. At the very least, you can always ask one of your buddies who is doing a ground fight about a proper spyder guard. Learning this methods should give you a sufficient time to resist a ground attack and buy you time to get up again.


The key in newaza for the attacker is to keep the condition static. The key for the defender is to keep the condition dynamic.

One catch about newaza for Akidoka is that (pardon me) usually Aikidokas are not physically strong built. Newaza requires strong muscles, especially strong forearms.


Best wishes,

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2004, 09:38 AM
Hmm, some of the aikidoka I know have the strongest forearms...buki waza has its good points, even if its not classical/koryu...

RT

kironin
07-19-2004, 11:16 AM
I think that's also perhaps why many people who study arts with no ground fighting make a point of trying to learn some in case it does happen. And I don't think it's about people doubting aikido - it's about doubting their own ability at it.

There is also the point for some of us that we are actively practicing strategies that make it very hard to take us down being aware that is not where our strengths lie (A Clint Eastwood movie quote comes to mind). I have done enough Newaza with Judo and BJJ to know it takes a lot of energy even when you are doing your best to stay relaxed and efficient. From a SD point of view, it's not ideal even if you do it well.

came across this interesting site this weekend while randomly surfing,
http://www.geocities.com/global_training_report/mehdi.htm

Mehdi's view was that a good throw can make ground fighting unnecessary. And even if the fight goes on, you are going to be in a much better position after dropping or slamming your opponent onto the ground from five feet up in the air, no matter how you look at it. Ukemi or no ukemi, it hurts.

Michael Neal
07-19-2004, 12:18 PM
I have done enough Newaza with Judo and BJJ to know it takes a lot of energy even when you are doing your best to stay relaxed and efficient. From a SD point of view, it's not ideal even if you do it well.

The best newaza experts I have sparred with use almost no strength at all. They use all technique, squirming around like a snake and methodically getting better positions.

Being able to escape a pin or get a dominant position is very important in a self defense situation, don't assume that your Aikido will keep you off the ground. Think of all the mistakes you make during training, this will also happen in a confrontation regardless of how skilled you are. If your attacker has wrestling experience and you make a slight error you will likely be taken to the ground.

Also when people get thrown they often panic a grasp firmly to the person throwing them, this could put you in a dangerous ground situation as well.

Ed Stansfield
07-19-2004, 01:04 PM
you owe it to yourself to learn two escapes: an escape from a headlock on the ground and an escape from the full mount (opponent has you mounted).

This thread's moved on a little but anyway . . .

The headlock on the ground I can visualise (though I'm not sure about the escape) but what's "the full mount"?

[sounds of people tsk ing at my ignorance]


Best,

Ed

kironin
07-19-2004, 01:07 PM
...
Also when people get thrown they often panic a grasp firmly to the person throwing them, this could put you in a dangerous ground situation as well.

yes, I am aware of all this Michael.

like I said we have strategies to prevent this.

you of course can play "what if?" all day.

Craig

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2004, 01:40 PM
Also when people get thrown they often panic a grasp firmly to the person throwing them, this could put you in a dangerous ground situation as well.

When people do this during training it scares me a little...in trying to lessen the power of the throw and protect them I sometimes worry about falling on them. I'm usually pretty stable and don't have to worry about that, but...not always.

If someone should do that outside of training I think its time for a smile and a piledriver... :)

RT

NagaBaba
07-19-2004, 02:01 PM
When people do this during training it scares me a little...
RT
Why not hit them with your body when landing? Strange thing, judo ppl do it all time. Seems working fine.
Please don't be so afraid ;) :)

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2004, 02:04 PM
Because in training the instructor hits me with a bokken when I do that!

Ron :)

paw
07-19-2004, 02:06 PM
Learning newaza is not that hard. There is a saying in Judo :"Newaza one year, nagewaza ten years."

I disagree. While current rule interpretation leaves little, if any, time for ne waza in judo shiai --- learn to turtle and defend for 30 seconds, and you'll be stood up --- and could be the basis of this statement, the situation determines the tactics. For example, in bjj where rules allow the entire match to take place on the ground it becomes clear that a good deal of training is needed.

In my neck of the woods, it will take much more than a year of working on just escapes to avoid being pinned (and then pounded) by a high school wrestler.


The key in newaza for the attacker is to keep the condition static. The key for the defender is to keep the condition dynamic.

I disagree. As a general rule --- and this shows my bias towards bjj --- the key in ne waza is to establish a superior position. Once a superior position is established, keep a superior position. Flowing from one superior postion to another is perfectly fine...you don't have to hold one and only one position.

One catch about newaza for Akidoka is that (pardon me) usually Aikidokas are not physically strong built. Newaza requires strong muscles, especially strong forearms.


The body becomes it's function. Like aikido, judo or bjj require a base level of fitness, but strength, much like technique is a learned skill. There's more to groundfighting than just who is the strongest.

Regards,

Paul

David Humm
07-19-2004, 02:29 PM
I'm a former Prison Officer working within mainly Cat A (High Security) and SSU (Special Security Units) During the years I worked in these establishments, I can say with conviction (pardon the pun) that every fight I've either witnessed or had to get involved in as part of an intervention team, has always, quickly degenerated on to the ground.

The main reason why this is the case is a subconscious desire to gain advantage through physical control. This control cannot be achieved whilst standing, additionally, unless you know how to "handle" yourself, a standing fight is much harder to win. Our untrained natural defensive reaction is to stifle a potential assault by holding or grasping, this eventually ends up on the floor.

During my service I learned Aikido, not specifically because I was a Prison Officer but because I'd been introduced to it by a mate however, I have found it extremely useful in the course of my duties. Although having to be very careful not to be seen to be applying applications not "authorised" within a fairly strict 'Control and Restraint' policy, but, suwari waza has been invaluable in my abilities to stay in control when otherwise I'd be rolling about. Comments from my colleagues were testimony to this.

I can't say that I had a formulated "strategy" for dealing with ground fights other than to say, never let my opponent get on top, always be moving and ultimately get him face down and pinned ASAP.

Regards

Chris Birke
07-19-2004, 02:37 PM
Ground fighting is excellent because of the way it is trained today. A year of modern groundfighting will forever change the way you look at all martial arts. Not because every fight goes to the ground, or even because the ground is a good place to be, but because of the way it's trained. Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Catch - whatever; if you can barely move after you're done you were learning a lot.

If you want to fight nhb in a ring or a cage, it is essential that you learn to fight on the ground. Same if you want to learn to attack (ie, army, bouncer or cop). Otherwise it questionable.

Full mount is when you are lying on your back and someone is straddled upon your chest (past your legs) where they can pummel you, and yet you cannot reach back.

http://bjj.org/techniques/aranha/mountescape/mount_escape1.jpg

The best escape (in my opinion) is laid out here (http://bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/escapemount1/).

As for the headlock, he probably means a "side headlock" or "scarf hold" which is the most common (as it's the natural progression from the exceedingly common standing side headlock). This is generally much harder to escape than mount and is often used in Judo as a 30 second pin.

http://bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/kesagatame/gatame1.jpg

There are many escapes, but they all generally involve the key concept of shoving your forearm under the other persons neck to make space.


Here's one. (http://bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/kesagatame/)

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2004, 02:42 PM
What I like best about bjj is the way they train transitions...both transitions between positions and transition between techniques. I could use some more of that focus in my aikido.

Ron

Chris Birke
07-19-2004, 02:45 PM
"What I like best about bjj is the way they train transitions..."

What I like is that it is absolutely clear WHY you train transitions - most a fight is transitions from one failed technique to another until you finally succeed. Some people who don't train this often get the sense that knowing all the techniques is enough to actually use them.

Ron Tisdale
07-19-2004, 03:08 PM
Good point...

Michael Neal
07-19-2004, 06:10 PM
yes, I am aware of all this Michael.

like I said we have strategies to prevent this.

you of course can play "what if?" all day.

Craig


This whole thread is about what if

Jorx
07-20-2004, 01:02 AM
Ground fighting is excellent because of the way it is trained today. A year of modern groundfighting will forever change the way you look at all martial arts. Not because every fight goes to the ground, or even because the ground is a good place to be, but because of the way it's trained. Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Catch - whatever; if you can barely move after you're done you were learning a lot.

As for the headlock, he probably means a "side headlock" or "scarf hold" which is the most common (as it's the natural progression from the exceedingly common standing side headlock). This is generally much harder to escape than mount and is often used in Judo as a 30 second pin.


Word @ this training methods thing!

Just my 2 cents offtopic: Kesa-gatame is MUCH easier to escape than a good mount :) Quoting Lucio Linhares (bjj bb): Kesa-Gatame is paska (paska meaning shit in finnish).

Chris Birke
07-20-2004, 01:15 AM
I always have good luck with it in attack and trouble in defending it; I should have added "for me" in there.

He surely knows something I don't =).

I remember the first time I saw Eddie Bravo play his half guard (before I'd never really considered half guard anything but an accident); to see him own his way to the mundials with the same halfguard to oldschool pass on every second opponent really made me rethink it =).

Then again, maybe I just have the pyoveli scarf hold.

Jorx
07-20-2004, 12:47 PM
I always have good luck with it in attack and trouble in defending it; I should have added "for me" in there.


At first: to your "best" mount escape (the upa) there is an exellent contra. He grabs your arm, starts to bridge, slide the other leg to his head, put the shin over his face, let hime roll over and finish your face-down armbar :) Another thing is when opponent gets you crossfaced while in full mount then there is no way you can escape that way.

There are several ways of escaping the kesa-gatame scarfhold which working alltogether make it a very bad position to take afterall. Kesa-kuzure gatame the modified scarfhold is much better as it allows more movability. The escapes:
1. Taking the back with underhook (which you always have in kesa-gatame).
2. If the head is stuck throw your leg over his leg and crawl to top releasing your head by pressing onto his head - come to mount or back.
3. Bridge in and throw him across your chest.
4. If he posts the other hand for support on the ground to the other side of your head, grab the hand and feed it inbetween your legs - crucifix position.
5. Same as 4. goes for when he stretches your arm really up - you can feed it between your legs right away.
6. If you can post the elbow of the hand which is being pulled up onto the ground you can use it to support you stand sitting up and roll him to his back - end in sidemount.

These all six escapes wonderfully work together and at least I have been able to escape kesa gatame of guys about 30 pounds heavier than me. The trouble is noone smart enough doesn't take that hold nowadays ;)

Little offshoot in groundfighting that was...

Anyhow... in the Open Discussion section of this forum under headline "Systema" Jason DeLucia posted some exerpts from Aikido book where guard and armbar are shown. Yet to me it makes no difference because nowadays this is not typically taught in any Aikido class AND the groundfighting and it's methods have really evolved during last 20-30 years.

So my personal smartass opinion is that proper bjj / submission wrestling will really improve your SD / fighting abilities no matter what level you currently are in aikido. And it's fun. ;)

Chris Birke
07-20-2004, 02:41 PM
First off, I'm ready to defend the upa escape - watch tons of groundfighting, what gets people out of the mount all the time? Upa!

That said, you'd have to assume I'm an idiot to think that knowing only one escape will get you out of most situations. How I usually escape mount is the upa, elbow, backdoor trinity of techniques. With the three of them it's very solid.

If you only know one, though, I think upa escape is the best to teach beginners, simply because the upa bridge alone is full of such crucial and yummy fundamental principle.

As for my scarf hold; I call anything remotely close to kesa-gatame scarf hold (for lack of more accurate terms). I'm sure mine falls under modified scarf something.

Firstly I never put an arm all the way behind their head in a headlock - that's ruinous; I just control the collar or back of the neck. The other key is to keep my hip under their shoulder and my head in good position. Lifting that shoulder makes a huge difference. From there I dominate the arm, work armlocks, chokes or transition into the mount (just switch the hips back) or head to head (come around).

No place is invincible (except maybe the sunk rear naked), but as I was saying about the halfguard, you can always be suprised by a slightly different incarnation of something that hadn't worked before.

(someone with ocd out there is just itching to post the counter to the rear naked now...)

Chris Birke
07-20-2004, 02:50 PM
Looking at my post with the escapes, though, you're right. The scarfhold in the picture is the street thug one. That's IS a joke.

What I should have said was a GOOD scarfhold can be much harder to escape than mount.

Tharis
07-20-2004, 06:03 PM
No place is invincible (except maybe the sunk rear naked), but as I was saying about the halfguard, you can always be suprised by a slightly different incarnation of something that hadn't worked before.

(someone with ocd out there is just itching to post the counter to the rear naked now...)


I won't argue, but I will ask a question. What is this "sunk rear naked" position? What makes it invincible?

Jorx
07-21-2004, 01:36 AM
I won't argue, but I will ask a question. What is this "sunk rear naked" position? What makes it invincible?

The rear naked choke... that meanas that the choke is in place and your body is controlled with hooks... So you are about to pass out in 8 or so seconds while trying to escape
:D

Jorx
07-21-2004, 01:42 AM
Chirs I was by no means meaning to be disrespectful... what made me wiseass about those escapes was that the hold in pic was really the streethug / judo pin version...

And I do agree about all that upa being very essential and stuff... still a good mount is hard to escape...

Chris Birke
07-21-2004, 02:29 AM
Oh I know Jorgen, no disrespect taken - I think we're totally in agreement, and even then I still enjoy a little bit of a disagreement anyway =).

Michael Cardwell
07-21-2004, 04:13 AM
I have a question, why is there no ground fighting in Aikido? I know that O-sensei took Judo and Sumo wresting, so why is there no grappling at least? Just curious.

Jorx
07-21-2004, 06:01 AM
And I do agree about all that upa being very essential and stuff... still a good mount is hard to escape...

Then it's good... there is just this one thing which gives a new dimesion to every pin... CROSSFACE. Really hard to escape with anything else from being mounted than elbow'n'knee.

And don't come telling me that you've heard of the "kesa-gatame into crucifix position"-escape before my escapes post;)

Usually the modifed scarf we practice is that you take the underhook with other hand as well (instead of grabbing near the head or smth) and roll his shoulder back...

willy_lee
07-22-2004, 04:55 PM
What I like is that it is absolutely clear WHY you train transitions - most a fight is transitions from one failed technique to another until you finally succeed.
What I find most interesting is that the transitions are trained systematically. Very chess-like -- and dynamic. New directions are explored, new tactics become the favored ones to beat another. This one is countered by this one, but sets up this variation. The old standard considered de rigeur 5 years ago is now too easy to beat, etc.

=wl

willy_lee
07-22-2004, 05:04 PM
In any weoponmanship, the idea was the frist strike is all that was needed to finish your adversary.
I would disagree with this. In every system of (non-fantasy) weapons usage I've seen, there was never such an assumption. Assuming that the adversary was also armed :), never, never act under the false confidence that a single strike would do the job. You might miss. Or your opponent might shrug it off.

Vorpal weapons are much rarer in real life :)

=wl

xuzen
07-22-2004, 09:31 PM
I would disagree with this. In every system of (non-fantasy) weapons usage I've seen, there was never such an assumption. Assuming that the adversary was also armed :), never, never act under the false confidence that a single strike would do the job. You might miss. Or your opponent might shrug it off.

Vorpal weapons are much rarer in real life :)

=wl

Dear Willy,

It was not an assumption, it was the underlying fundamental principle. For example In iaijutsu, the first cut is also the last cut. Again my emphasize, it is the fundamental principle not an assumption.

There are too many what ifs and what's not, the dynamics of human confrontation is too complex, we can discuss the dynamism until the cows come home, and not reaching any nearer to the goal wrt to real life confrontation. But the premise remains the same, the combat should ideally finish after the first strike (be it a weapon or empty handed). This allow one to move on to the next combantant and the next and next...

Truly,
Boon.

p/s sorry to other posters for diverting this thread to weapon discussion. Pls continue with the grappling discussion. I was just passing through.

Martin Ruedas
07-28-2004, 05:24 AM
I think Aikido teaches us to be always on guard so that we won't end up fighting on the ground. I think we should be always be aware of our surroundings. It teaches us to be always in a stable position where we will not lose our balance.
fighting on ground only means we are not on a stable position anymore. And I think kneeling techniques is what should be done if ever we lose balance while we're standing. Just my opinion. :) :ki: be with you:)

Martin Ruedas
07-28-2004, 05:29 AM
This whole thread is about what if
We'll see :)

paw
07-28-2004, 07:46 AM
I think Aikido teaches us to be always on guard so that we won't end up fighting on the ground. ... It teaches us to be always in a stable position where we will not lose our balance.
fighting on ground only means we are not on a stable position anymore.

Respectfully, if Olympic judoka and wrestlers can be thrown on the ground, everyone on this board can as well.

If you believe your lifestyle will make it pretty unlikely that you'll ever meet a person capable of knocking you to the ground and keeping you there, that's another thing entirely.

Regards,

Paul

Jorx
07-28-2004, 12:37 PM
Respectfully, if Olympic judoka and wrestlers can be thrown on the ground, everyone on this board can as well.

If you believe your lifestyle will make it pretty unlikely that you'll ever meet a person capable of knocking you to the ground and keeping you there, that's another thing entirely.


Word!

I have never seen nor heard of anyone who made claims "I cannot be taken down, 'cause I will move / 'cause I will hit you in the head with elbow / 'cause I will knee you into face / 'cause I stand so firmly / etc" AND who had not a VERY surprised face after couple of successful applications of ground & pound strategy.

Bronson
07-28-2004, 01:27 PM
fighting on ground only means we are not on a stable position anymore.

I think that technically being on the ground is a more stable position than standing. Your probably not going to get knocked off the ground ;)

Bronson

Chris Birke
07-28-2004, 01:53 PM
The problem with training ground defense is that a good takedown is considered too rough for most Aikido places. Training on a simulated takedown only gives people a false sense of confidence, there's just not enough energy. Luckily, there are some really good schools out there who have what it takes, and you can always crosstrain otherwise.

JasonFDeLucia
07-28-2004, 06:42 PM
Word!

I have never seen nor heard of anyone who made claims "I cannot be taken down, 'cause I will move / 'cause I will hit you in the head with elbow / 'cause I will knee you into face / 'cause I stand so firmly / etc" AND who had not a VERY surprised face after couple of successful applications of ground & pound strategy.
word! that is fact even in aikido, because half of the waza is ground work,just the emphasis on preserving the standing form while you operate is essential AND HIT YOU IN THE FACE AND ELBOW YOU AND KNEE YOU and we should practice with that in mind SUWARI WAZA NOME