PDA

View Full Version : Seagal's fight with a Tomiki instructor


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


darin
07-16-2004, 09:21 AM
I recently was told of a fight which happened many years ago in Osaka between Steven Seagal and a now high ranking Tomiki instructor. Apparently Seagal broke the guy's leg. Does anyone know anything about this or have other stories of famous dojo fights?

Chris Birke
07-16-2004, 09:46 AM
Well there is always the one about Seagal and Gene LeBelle.

I've never heard of this Tomiki instructor fight - do you have more details?

aikidoc
07-16-2004, 10:44 AM
Probably a movie or urband legend:)

JamesC
07-17-2004, 12:58 AM
Well i'd like to hear about the Seagal and LeBelle fight...

batemanb
07-17-2004, 01:28 AM
Well i'd like to hear about the Seagal and LeBelle fight...


Just do a search for Labelle on here, or aikidojournal.com or e-budo.com, it has been discussed at length many times in all places :crazy:

darin
07-17-2004, 03:26 AM
I don't really have much information on the fight with the Tomiki instructor. The guy is pretty high up or head of the Tomiki style now so I am sure there are others who know more about it than me. It would be interesting to know if the fight was planned or spur of the moment.

I don't know Seagal personally or how he interacts with Japanese people but I am not surprised if he was involved in a few fights when he was running his school. I know a few foreigners in Japan who constantly get into fights with the locals. Then again at 6"5 tall and muscular I can't imagine many Japanese instructors willing to take on Steven Seagal.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-18-2004, 01:54 AM
I recently was told of a fight which happened many years ago in Osaka between Steven Seagal and a now high ranking Tomiki instructor. Apparently Seagal broke the guy's leg. Does anyone know anything about this or have other stories of famous dojo fights?


Hmm... Actually, the story goes ...is one of those encounters that we never recount...publicly. Bottom line, though:

1. something did happen.
2. it was witnessed by many people.
3. no one talks about it... much.
4. it is a good idea to leave it be.

KamiKaze_Evolution
07-18-2004, 03:22 AM
pictures or video clips please? :p

vanstretch
07-18-2004, 10:53 AM
I second the motion.

PeterR
07-21-2004, 02:46 AM
Sorry Shaun - if you know something put it out there. Right now it sounds as if the story is true.

What I know is that Nariyama Shihan was deshi to Kobayashi H. at the time that the latter was instructing at Seagal's dojo in Osaka. As the latter got confident he got mouthy with Kobayashi and Nariyama was not impressed. I heard words were exchanged but that was about it. By the way Nariyama is much smaller than Seagal but I would put my money on him any time - the man even now is one scary dude. There is a pici on my Dojo homepage below of Nariyama about that time. I've never heard of a broken leg.

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-21-2004, 12:08 PM
Sorry Shaun - if you know something put it out there. Right now it sounds as if the story is true.

What I know is that Nariyama Shihan was deshi to Kobayashi H. at the time that the latter was instructing at Seagal's dojo in Osaka. As the latter got confident he got mouthy with Kobayashi and Nariyama was not impressed. I heard words were exchanged but that was about it. By the way Nariyama is much smaller than Seagal but I would put my money on him any time - the man even now is one scary dude. There is a pici on my Dojo homepage below of Nariyama about that time. I've never heard of a broken leg.

Peter-San,

Nice to hear from you. I can't really make heads or tails of your account. Sorry. As for what others have already written, I don't put any credence into anyone's account that wasn't actually there at the time. What I know, I got from Matsuoka Sensei, and he definitely was there. So, to say that it seems like it is true, well, that is up to each person to judge for themselves. I choose not to add anything to the rumors in the thread for the following reasons:

1. I would not be giving a first-hand account.

2. There is nothing positive that can come from anyone other than those who already know the details knowing anything more about the incident.

3. In past years when rumors have surfaced on web boards like this, I have taken the time and energy to give accurate accounts of those incidents. However, even after people read them, they still insisted that it occurred as rumored, not as it actually happened. So I no longer feel any obligation to set the record straight because I really don't care that Joe Schmo Aikidoka believes whatever he reads on a web site's message board.

4. The original intention of the post is simply childish. If the poster really deserved to know anything more about it, he would approach those who were supposedly involved and ask them directly.


As for that my sensei can beat up your sensei malarkey - please choose to elevate the conversation back up to the level at which I normally find your comments.

PeterR
07-22-2004, 12:24 AM
So send me a private e-mail and let me check it from my end (I'll keep it private). I got the story from a non-Japanese who was living. training and teaching Aikido in Osaka contemporary with Seagal. Even so the event was a little before his time. I asked the question because a certain Tomiki person who is training with you asked me about the two men knowing each other.

What part of my story doesn't make sense.
Kobayashi H. did teach at the Juso dojo during the time Nariyama was his uchideshi. That's been confirmed by sources other than Tomiki. You have an eyewitness account which beats my source (I never asked Nariyama direct) but I must say a broken leg is pretty hard to hide. Again I heard that it didn't come to blows but perhaps I asked the wrong question.

As for the malarkey - it is relevant. The point was that Nariyama would not have been easy to take on much less damage. With Seagal's size and Nariyama's demeanor and training I suspect there would be caution all round.

Shaun - there are all sorts of Seagal in Japan stories that need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt. Yeah I know some take a segment of a movie and think its reality but the man himself bears some responsibility.

Ian Williams
07-22-2004, 04:03 AM
Hmm... Actually, the story goes ...is one of those encounters that we never recount...publicly. Bottom line, though:

1. something did happen.
2. it was witnessed by many people.
3. no one talks about it... much.
4. it is a good idea to leave it be.



wow.... thats a way to kill curiosity!! so what happened?? huh? huh? huh?? :crazy: :freaky: :hypno:

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-22-2004, 07:15 AM
So send me a private e-mail and let me check it from my end (I'll keep it private). I got the story from a non-Japanese who was living. training and teaching Aikido in Osaka contemporary with Seagal. Even so the event was a little before his time. I asked the question because a certain Tomiki person who is training with you asked me about the two men knowing each other.

Peter-San,

Yes, I was asked about the incident by the person you mentioned. Without revealing anything, I politely suggested that he locate any information using the back channels he might have access to. Of course, I am sure you would agree that a public message board is very far from a back channel. I don't see the efficacy of providing any relevant information so you can forward it back to the person whom I chose not to say anything to when I could have simply told him myself. Had he been perceptive, he would have dropped the subject entirely when he first encountered my unwillingness to speak about it.

What part of my story doesn't make sense.
Kobayashi H. did teach at the Juso dojo during the time Nariyama was his uchideshi. That's been confirmed by sources other than Tomiki. You have an eyewitness account which beats my source (I never asked Nariyama direct) but I must say a broken leg is pretty hard to hide. Again I heard that it didn't come to blows but perhaps I asked the wrong question.

Actually, I got lost in your use of the pronouns, latter and he, so I was simply not clear who was who, and who did or said what to whom...


As for the malarkey - it is relevant. The point was that Nariyama would not have been easy to take on much less damage. With Seagal's size and Nariyama's demeanor and training I suspect there would be caution all round.

What I suggested is that a person such as yourself does more to harm his own reputation by even instigating such a line of thought, and perpetuating it here. Personally, if I wanted to hit someone, then I would have done so, regardless of size or demeanor. Since you, yourself, admit this didn't come to blows, as far as you know, then the suggestion that Nariyama would have done this or that is simply irrelevant because he didn't and probably it is safe to say won't anytime in the future. I am not suggesting any particular outcome of such an encounter, because it would be silly to do so. It reminds me of the Seagal versus Van Damme malarkey of the early nineties. When the truth came out, Van Damme, whom everyone predicted would win such an encounter, turned out to be a ballet dancer. Now, Seagal Sensei has some bad clothing, I will admit, but I don't believe a tutu would be found amongst his wardrobe at the time of the encounter to which you refer.

Shaun - there are all sorts of Seagal in Japan stories that need to be taken with a heavy dose of salt. Yeah I know some take a segment of a movie and think its reality but the man himself bears some responsibility.

Actually, I have spoken about that before. You can choose to believe what you want, based upon the sources where you have obtained your information. I am not so easily swayed to believe what I read on a website, or hear from nameless, faceless sources. I have confirmed what I know about these many Seagal, Japan stories through multiple independent sources that were there at the time, have nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth, and didn't know I was fact checking information I obtained through sources other than themselves. The only statement I will make is so well known that you could finish the sentence having read only the beginning. That would be, "The truth is often..... stranger than fiction."

Whatever you think you know about Seagal Sensei's past is only a shadow of a truth that was constructed to reveal and hide what needed to be revealed and hidden. It is like the old Richard Pryor comedy routine about mosquitoes - It goes like this... When you are lying in bed and hear a mosquito buzzing around your head in the dark, don't worry about it. This is because the mosquitoes that make the buzzing noise are the male ones. They make a sound that is designed to attract the female mosquitoes. You see, male mosquitoes don't bite; only the female ones do. Interestingly, female mosquitoes don't make any noise. So, when you are lying in bed and trying to go to sleep and you hear that buzzing, you should just turn over and go to sleep. However, when you hear nothing, then you need to be concerned.

Translation - from what I know, those who know about these stories don't speak about it publicly. Those who are out there talking about it, well, they don't really know a Van-Damn thing. If I was to tell you anything, it might turn out that I knew nothing, after all. So, if you want me to tell you a story....

I'll tell you what, if you ever get the chance to ask Nariyama Sensei, yourself, you can write me a private e-mail detailing what he says. I will confirm or deny it - in person, based upon what I know, should that opportunity ever come to pass.

Ron Tisdale
07-22-2004, 07:55 AM
When you are lying in bed and hear a mosquito buzzing around your head in the dark, don't worry about it. This is because the mosquitoes that make the buzzing noise are the male ones. They make a sound that is designed to attract the female mosquitoes. You see, male mosquitoes don't bite; only the female ones do. Interestingly, female mosquitoes don't make any noise. So, when you are lying in bed and trying to go to sleep and you hear that buzzing, you should just turn over and go to sleep. However, when you hear nothing, then you need to be concerned.

Hi Shaun,

Conversely, maybe you should kill that male mosquito, since he is happily atttacting female mosquitoes to your immediate vicinity. :)

Best Regards (and to you too Peter),

Ron

Yann Golanski
07-22-2004, 10:11 AM
Wow, what a thread! It's so mature and educational... <\SARCASM>

Seriously now...

Shaun, if you have something to say then please say it. I would be happy to hear it. Your post sadly suggests to me that you know but refuse to tell us thus inflating your knowledge. Maybe I did get it wrong and I am not intended on flaming you.

Peter, if you do ask Nariyama and he does not mind, I'd like to know as well -- either here or privately, I care not.

Considering Seagal, I have heard and read a lot about him. Some of those are first hand stories, some are court transcripts... Most of what I have heard make me take anything involving Seagal with a grain of salt... OK a rock, a mountain of salt. For those who want to know more, there was a transcript of a court appearance Seagal made that was posted on the board some times ago. A quick search should find it.

As to who is the hardest, who cares!!! If I wanted to be the hardest, I'd plant home made bombs with napalm and phosphor. BOOM. I win, you're charcoal. AHAHAHAHAHA ... OK, lost the seriousness here...

Back to game theory... at least I can get my head round Nash equilibria.

Chris Birke
07-22-2004, 10:20 AM
"Whatever you think you know about Seagal Sensei's past is only a shadow of a truth that was constructed to reveal and hide what needed to be revealed and hidden."

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-22-2004, 01:21 PM
Wow, what a thread! It's so mature and educational... <\SARCASM>

Seriously now...

Shaun, if you have something to say then please say it. I would be happy to hear it. Your post sadly suggests to me that you know but refuse to tell us thus inflating your knowledge. Maybe I did get it wrong and I am not intended on flaming you.

Mr. Golanski,

Nice to make your acquaintance. I thought I was clear. I have nothing to say regarding anyone's childish need to know details of the sordid, and rumored past of someone else's aikido teachers. I thought we were practicing the art of peace, not the art of gossip and nattering. I am not attempting to inflate my apparent knowledge of this or any other incident involving Seagal Sensei. However, I am asking that people consider having the decency of asking the source, if they indeed need to know the answers to their questions. I would love have the opportunity to see the expression on the face of anyone who actually confronted Nariyama Sensei or Seagal Sensei and attempted to come up with a legitimate reason for wanting to know about these issues.

Believe me when I intimate that these issues are better left alone, as the reasons why these events occurred are always more interesting than what actually did or didn't happen. Considering that the what isn't known, and that the why is even less likely to be known, or better yet, not able to be communicated without a revisionist slant, we would have a much more realistic conversation on which would have bettered the plight of Wile E. Coyote; if he had studied aikikai, iwama, ki or tomiki based aikido?

Any takers?

By the way, while we are on the subject, has anyone checked the whereabouts of Seagal Sensei the night Nicole Brown Simpson was killed?

Misogi-no-Gyo
07-22-2004, 01:23 PM
"Whatever you think you know about Seagal Sensei's past is only a shadow of a truth that was constructed to reveal and hide what needed to be revealed and hidden."

Did you like that one enough to quote me on it?

Chris Birke
07-22-2004, 02:29 PM
Yes.

darin
08-14-2004, 11:25 AM
Hey Peter,

The person I heard it from is a Japanese Tomiki aikido instructor. I don't know if he got the information from Nariyama or from someone else. He just brought it up one night while showing me some tapes of Nariyama doing aikido in Osaka.

What I am curious to know is whether the fight was planned or spur of the moment and what was the outcome. Its interesting because both men are experts in aikido and from different styles.

Darin

Hanna B
08-14-2004, 06:48 PM
It is like the old Richard Pryor comedy routine about mosquitoes - It goes like this... When you are lying in bed and hear a mosquito buzzing around your head in the dark, don't worry about it. This is because the mosquitoes that make the buzzing noise are the male ones. They make a sound that is designed to attract the female mosquitoes. You see, male mosquitoes don't bite; only the female ones do. Interestingly, female mosquitoes don't make any noise. So, when you are lying in bed and trying to go to sleep and you hear that buzzing, you should just turn over and go to sleep. However, when you hear nothing, then you need to be concerned.
Ah, it is a comedy routine. It is not true.

It is correct that it is the female mosquitos who take some blood before they lay eggs, not the male ones. But the biting mosquitos do buzz. Mosquitos that do not buzz belong to other, non-blood sucking species.

L. Camejo
08-15-2004, 12:09 AM
Wow, educational thread. You learn new things about mosquitoes every day.:)

Seriously though, I think Wile E. Coyote would have had his best chance doing Ki Aikido. If he could develop his ki to be able to levitate and stuff he would get quite an edge. At least he wouldn't have to depend on those testy Acme rockets.:) Not to mention, for a road runner to run, he must have friction, just levitate him off the ground and into his mouth.:)

Oh, and Seagal may or may not have been at the Nicole Simpson crime scene. But I can't let you people know on a public forum like this, since with his CIA links and everything he may put a hit out on me, cuz y'know they sorta do stuff like that, and he is so tight with the CIA and all. Didn't you guys see the E! True Hollywood story?:p

Ok, getting back to reality now.

I now return to my state of lurkdom.:)

On another note though, exactly what Aikido technique allows you to break your opponent's leg? (Inquiring minds wanna know).

LC:ai::ki:

kironin
08-15-2004, 01:49 AM
Seriously though, I think Wile E. Coyote would have had his best chance doing Ki Aikido. If he could develop his ki to be able to levitate and stuff he would get quite an edge. At least he wouldn't have to depend on those testy Acme rockets.:) Not to mention, for a road runner to run, he must have friction, just levitate him off the ground and into his mouth.:)



well if that was meant as a slam of a style you are obviously ignorant of this thread has sunk even lower than the low it started with of trying get gossip and then slamming Shaun for not wishing to engage in gossip of some very old incident.

if ever a thread needed to be deleting...

George S. Ledyard
08-15-2004, 06:36 AM
Look, everybody likes the "legendary" stories of their art. I don't see wishing to know these stories as some kind of moral weakness, they're fun and interesting.

However, people have no fundamental "right" to know these stories. Shaun, nothing makes people crazier than being told they can't have something they want. Intimating that you know the true story and then telling folks you won't share the details is a recipe for an on-line feeding frenzy. You're really better off not saying anything.

People need to chill out about Seagal Sensei. This is a man who has some very complex personas which he has created over the years. There are a small number of people on this forum who actually know this man as a Teacher of Aikido, not as some show biz hyped myth. Don't expect them to be contributing to the general mythology any more than you are willing to provide un-flattering stories about your own teachers.

Zato Ichi
08-15-2004, 07:20 AM
Shaun, nothing makes people crazier than being told they can't have something they want. Intimating that you know the true story and then telling folks you won't share the details is a recipe for an on-line feeding frenzy. You're really better off not saying anything.

This is easily the most sensible thing anyone's said in this thread so far. Now that temper's are flaring (although, Craig, I think you need to chill out: given the smilies all over Larry's post, it seems like he's just fooling around), perhaps it's time to let this one die a quiet death.

L. Camejo
08-15-2004, 09:17 AM
Thanks Hori, my entire post was meant in a comic air (hence the preponderance of smilies). Didn't mean to harm or hurt anyone's feelings. I have actually done some Ki Aikido and I respect what they do very much. As I do with most styles I've come across. There's always something to learn.

The reason for the comic approach was because I really thought the thread was going nowhere and becoming comical and that the whole my Sensei vs your Sensei way of thinking does nothing to save one's a$$ in the dojo or out of it or prove anything about one's ability. How we train and how correctly we train is what is important, not how many duels our teacher had or who beat whom.

Relax Craig, I never intended to put down the Ki school or anything. If you feel this way, my apologies to you. Maybe my ignorance isn't so obvious after all.:)

Onegaishimasu.
L.C.:ai::ki:

acot
08-15-2004, 06:51 PM
This thread is so entertaining. The internet is especailly good at telling stories. If their is a story to tell why not make a big deal. We are taking about an even that likely took place more then 10 years ago, or perhaps 15 years ago. It seem that the actual people involved have moved on to bigger and better things. But I really encourage people to keep posting, because gossip makes for some good reading material.

Cheers:)

PeterR
08-15-2004, 07:32 PM
Try 30

Michael Cardwell
08-16-2004, 05:19 AM
Since this is a descution about Steven Seagul, I thought I would make a quick committe on him and see if anyone else agrees.Anyway after seeing Seagul teach and pactice his classes, like in the Path Beyond Thought, does anyone else think that his style of aikido has de-evoled back into it's aiki jujutsu roots?

mj
08-16-2004, 06:16 AM
On another note though, exactly what Aikido technique allows you to break your opponent's leg? (Inquiring minds wanna know).

LC:ai::ki:

Tripping over the hakama.

Ron Tisdale
08-16-2004, 06:50 AM
Yea, but shodokan stylists generally don't wear hakama....
RT (George is right on line here...)

L. Camejo
08-16-2004, 07:02 AM
Tripping over the hakama.

Ahhh, thank you Mark-san.

Now see, this is why we don't use hakama. :p Although, in so doing we are missing out on a very devastating hidden technique. Hmmm........ :freaky:

LC:ai::ki:

Chuck.Gordon
08-16-2004, 07:42 AM
Michael Cardwell said:
does anyone else think that his style of aikido has de-evoled back into it's aiki jujutsu roots?

First off, I'm no Seagal fan a'tall, in terms of his budo, though I find his movies occasionally amusing ...

So ... just curious. What leads you to the assumption that aikido has evolved (implying that it's moved to a higher level, yes?) beyond its aiki jujutsu roots?

Chuck

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-16-2004, 10:56 AM
On another note though, exactly what Aikido technique allows you to break your opponent's leg? (Inquiring minds wanna know).

Tripping over the hakama.

I thought this thread had died the appropriate death. However, legitimate questions deserve answers. As for the technique in question, we used to practice many techniques from kicks - front, side, round, hook, back and back hooks kicks, to be exact. Each one either involves a trap against the body, or a finishing lock. In both cases, there is substantial torque applied to the ankle, knee and hip joints. Add just a bit of koshi during application, and unlike the myth about 99.9 % of the nikyo out there, there is most certainly going to be a break. Oh, we still do practice these techniques... and for the record, they are not related to aiki-jujitsu. Some may beg to differ, but the end justifies the means. Aiki-Jujitsu is a killing art. Last time I checked, although quite painful, and if it happened to you, you may have wished you were dead, no one typically dies from a broken ankle.

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-16-2004, 10:59 AM
This is easily the most sensible thing anyone's said in this thread so far. Now that temper's are flaring (although, Craig, I think you need to chill out: given the smilies all over Larry's post, it seems like he's just fooling around), perhaps it's time to let this one die a quiet death.


Temper's flaring? This has been a quiet offering of varied opinions, if you ask me. If you want heated, try the lastes Seagal thread over at aikido journal's message board.

Craig, thank you for the support. So rare, I had to put it out there in lights. You and I simply differ on opinions about most things. However, that is what makes the beer taste a bit sweeter, so all in all, a good thing.

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-16-2004, 11:36 AM
Look, everybody likes the "legendary" stories of their art. I don't see wishing to know these stories as some kind of moral weakness, they're fun and interesting.

Agreed. However, since the origins of the thread come from individuals within the shodokan, I do believe that deference should be paid to Nariyama Kaiso. Should Nariyama Sensei have wanted it common knowledge, I am sure it would be just that.

However, people have no fundamental "right" to know these stories.

One would think. Right?

Shaun, nothing makes people crazier than being told they can't have something they want. Intimating that you know the true story and then telling folks you won't share the details is a recipe for an on-line feeding frenzy. You're really better off not saying anything.

Agreed. However, I have learned over the years that certain things need to be ignored, and certain things need a gentle hand guiding them back to the path. Then again, there are also those that deserve more of a direct approach, hence my response to one particular individual over at Aikido Journal. I have received quite a few private messages over that - some for and against my approach, in that case. In both cases, whether agreeing with how I handled it, or not, all agreed that that person was way out of line.

People need to chill out about Seagal Sensei. This is a man who has some very complex personas which he has created over the years.

With all due respect, and I could be reading into how you chose to phrase this, the idea of creating his persona, at least any more than the rest of us, may be more myth than meal. Yes, this does happen in Hollywood. However, from the things that I have come to know, many of the things you hear about Seagal Sensei are out there to deal with the over-active sensitivities of other individuals and more likely tone down or obfuscate facts that tend to be thorns in the side of these same individuals, as opposed to embellishing fact so as to, and forgive me for the pun, make it more painful for them. However, and I am sure this to be true, "That may not always be the case!"

There are a small number of people on this forum who actually know this man as a Teacher of Aikido, not as some show biz hyped myth. Don't expect them to be contributing to the general mythology any more than you are willing to provide un-flattering stories about your own teachers.

In this case, I was avoiding making disparaging statements about respected individuals from other organizations. I would think it more than a yard short of equitable if I had asked for individuals to not disrespect the Master of my former dojo on the one hand, and then lambasted someone else's teachers on the other.

I simply requested, or thought that I had, this issue to be dropped. Perhaps you are right, that I should have said nothing in the case, and let the thread die out. However, they rarely ever do without someone running their mouth off down the gamut of gossipy drivel.

siwilson
08-16-2004, 01:27 PM
Anyone seen the "Belly Of The Beast"?

:)

I hadn't realised that Steven Seagal had started doing comedy until I saw it. I hadn't laughed so hard in ages!!! :D

Mad!

:)

L. Camejo
08-16-2004, 04:51 PM
Hi Shaun,

I know a few of those trapping and ankle lock techniques you are referring to. Imo though they ended up in joint dislocation (ankle, knee, hip etc.). I guess I think of a "leg break" as a break along or across the bones that connect the joints (femur, shin etc.) not joint dislocations. But I think now I understand the techs you are referring to.

Thanks for the input.
LC:ai::ki:

PeterR
08-16-2004, 08:01 PM
Agreed. However, since the origins of the thread come from individuals within the shodokan
There you go again Shaun. The first post on this thread by a Shodokan person was number 10 (me) - after you posted. I responded because your gentle guiding sounded a lot like - well others have commented on that.


In this case, I was avoiding making disparaging statements about respected individuals from other organizations.
And once again you suggest that you could. Lots and lots of nudge nudge wink wink and very little substance.

You are right somethings are best left alone and personally I regret one of the comments I made in the thread. It wasn't meant the way it was taken but so it was. Still if something is going to be said I would rather be direct.

Misogi-no-Gyo
08-16-2004, 09:40 PM
There you go again Shaun. The first post on this thread by a Shodokan person was number 10 (me) - after you posted. I responded because your gentle guiding sounded a lot like - well others have commented on that.


In this case, I was avoiding making disparaging statements about respected individuals from other organizations.
And once again you suggest that you could. Lots and lots of nudge nudge wink wink and very little substance.

You are right some things are best left alone and personally I regret one of the comments I made in the thread. It wasn't meant the way it was taken but so it was. Still if something is going to be said I would rather be direct.

Peter-San,

My apologies. I did not go back and look at the beginning of the thread. My first comment I believed to be following someone who had intimate knowledge enough to have been either a member of, or close to another member of the Shodokan. However, upon re-reading what I originally posted, I realized that it probably was taken in a manner that I, too, did not mean. Again, apologies. I would like to add, though, that my comments with regards to the points you say I am "nudging" about were in direct response to Ledyard Sensei, a man whom I respect and believe deserved a reply. Perhaps this was better done privately.

I would ask you, had you been in my place, how would you have phrased your reply, should you have felt it important that others understand that you specifically refused to provide information, when the information would have seemed disparaging along side of a request to have others avoid doing the same? I think it important to also note, that I did not say which individuals, nor which organization. I see now, though, how it could have been, and probably was taken.

By the way, what exactly are you trying to infer with the phrase... "There you go, again..." I have not made any disparaging remarks about Shodokan, Nariyama Sensei, or the like. If my original comments are taken incorrectly, it actually tends to support the idea that I believe that Nariyama Sensei put Seagal Sensei in his place... Notice I said, if my comments were taken incorrectly. Read them again, with that in mind. Not that I am trying to win a pissing contest with you, but, in case you, like me, neglected to reflect on one's own earlier comments, it was not I who bandied about the old and fetid, "...my sensei is better than..." oh, you know where I am going with this.

In any case, should you ever find yourself in Los Angeles, you can ask Matsuoka Sensei yourself, and see what wonderful tidbits he might add that you might find very interesting, or even disturbing. As for me, although I don't recall you ever declaring that you might find yourself in New York, I would travel to Los Angeles to make the introduction myself. Heck, I'll even buy the sushi and beer after the training. As it happens, I am trying to plan the next excursion to Osaka, and would love to have the chance to come down to your neck of the woods, if the powers that be let me have a break and would write up a letter of introduction. That is a lot of ifs but the universe has a way of providing what is needed at the right time.

Michael Cardwell
08-17-2004, 01:42 AM
Michael Cardwell said:


First off, I'm no Seagal fan a'tall, in terms of his budo, though I find his movies occasionally amusing ...

So ... just curious. What leads you to the assumption that aikido has evolved (implying that it's moved to a higher level, yes?) beyond its aiki jujutsu roots?

Chuck
Well Chuck, as you said, I implied, and did not actually state, that aikido has moved past its aiki jujutsu roots. Evolution does not necessarily mean better, just that something adapted. To me Seaguls teaching style looks a lot more martial then other sensei's. I say that it reverted back because to me aikido is not so much about martial technique, as it is about harmony. Also, if you want to go the way of comparison, let me relate a story to you. A General by the name of Miura tried to to attack Osensei with all of his might, in order to test him. Miura was also a student of Takeda's and wanted to see what Osensei was made of. After failing, Miura said : "Your techniques are a world apart from those of the Daito Ryu. It is true Budo. Please enroll me as your disciple."
Anyway, just my thoughts about it, peace everyone. :)

jester
08-17-2004, 08:27 AM
Apparently if something did happened, then the 2 people in question weren't practicing the art of peace, so if they let it happen, then it should be known.

There's nothing childish about wanting to know things. And nothing morally superior to those who don't want to know.

Ron Tisdale
08-17-2004, 08:33 AM
Your techniques are a world apart from those of the Daito Ryu. It is true Budo. Please enroll me as your disciple.

While interesting, this quote does not say much about what we practice today. Many whose skills are better than mine have commented on the fact that Ueshiba did many things that we today don't seem to quite replicate. My experience is awfully close to that. FWIW.

Ron

Chuck.Gordon
08-17-2004, 09:38 AM
Michael Cardwell wrote:

To me Seaguls teaching style looks a lot more martial then other sensei's.


Fair enough. Yeah, I find Seagal's interpretation of aikido pretty aggressive, but, in truth, he's not altogether different in his approach than some others. There's a WIDE variation of implementation in aikido, and he's really a point along a spectrum.


I say that it reverted back because to me aikido is not so much about martial technique, as it is about harmony.


I'd say that 'good' aikido requires a balance of those things ...

However, there's a fair amount of sophistication in some Daito Ryu circles, and in some koryu circles you can find the same level of philospohical engagement ...


Also, if you want to go the way of comparison, let me relate a story to you. A General by the name of Miura tried to to


I've read and heard a couple versions of that story, too. Remember that Ueshiba was, at the time, still (basically) teaching Daito Ryu, and what he did was predicated upon that training as well as his phenomenal personal skill.

Chuck

siwilson
08-22-2004, 03:39 PM
Wow, I was totally taken as off topic! (Trying to lighten it up! :freaky: )

Firstly, what is wrong with Seagal being more martial? Is Aikido a martial art or not? Yoshinkan certainly is!

Secondly, films like "Belly Of The Beast" are saddening to see the once great Nico trying to be Jet Li and looking frumpy and middle aged!

From what I have come across concerning Seagal I wouldnot be surprised if he had a fight with anyone. I know of meny similar instances, so it is no big deal!

Human - Only - Are - We!!!

Peace!

:ai:

Aikidoiain
09-15-2004, 05:37 AM
I agree totally with George S. Ledyard.

Best wishes,
Iain. :ki: :)

oudbruin
09-16-2004, 08:12 PM
george says:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, everybody likes the "legendary" stories of their art. I don't see wishing to know these stories as some kind of moral weakness, they're fun and interesting.
.............>>>>>>>>>>.

People need to chill out about Seagal Sensei""
I SECOND THE MOTION - LETS FIND SOMEONE ELSE TO GOSSIP ABOUT- LIKE GWB'S RESERVIST RECORD...
Bruce