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akiy
02-26-2001, 03:31 PM
Hi folks,

What do you think the state of the aikido community/world will be like in ten years?

-- Jun

DiNalt
02-26-2001, 03:51 PM
akiy wrote:
Hi folks,

What do you think the state of the aikido community/world will be like in ten years?

-- Jun

After the Third World War initiated by George W. Bush as a routine nuclear bombing, the remaining Aikidoka will be wandering the barren, radiated wastelands, hiding in the underground sewers from storms and giant mutated rats - their bokkens and katanas as their only weapons.

lt-rentaroo
02-26-2001, 04:49 PM
Pardon me while I pose a question here. DiNalt, What makes you think that President Bush is going to initiate WW III with a "routine nuclear bombing"? There is no such thing as a "routine nuclear bombing". I don't want to seem rude here, but please don't write such gibberish on the forums. It's not funny and definitely not based on any facts. I can say this because I work for Air Force Space Command and we maintain the majority of the United States' nuclear weapons.

Akiy,

To answer your question, I think Aikido will continue to grow in popularity among the people of the world. I'm sure there will be changes in organizational leadership and perhaps even the emergence of some different "styles" of Aikido. Change is not always for the good, but that is why as Aikido students we train to adapt to the situation and overcome it. I'm looking forward to continuing my training through visiting other dojos and attending seminars. Perhaps we will meet at a Boulder seminar this year.

DiNalt
02-26-2001, 05:06 PM
Yes, Sir.

Sorry for having intentionally mislead everyone here into thinking that there's such thing as a "routine nuclear bombing", Sir.

Won't happen again, Sir.

Permission to leave ?

lt-rentaroo
02-26-2001, 05:24 PM
DiNalt,

I was trying to be nice, maybe I was a bit rude. You must understand, I get a little concerned when folks make statements of that nature without (and excuse me if I'm wrong here) understanding fully what it is they are talking about. I'm guessing from the tone of your reply that you are probably about 15 years old, so I'll let the smart-ass tone slide. By the way, to quote a movie "Far more men, way better than you have rendered me that courtesy, don't disgrace them".
Have a nice day!

DiNalt
02-26-2001, 05:45 PM
You were trying to be nice ?

Listen man, I don't know who amputated your sense of humor and why they didn't use an anaesthetic, but it's NOT. MY. FAULT.

First you reply in a highly arrogant tone -

and just who do you think you are, that you're entitled to try and forbid another person from expressing themselves, because you don't find their jokes to be funny ?

Are you familiar with the term FUBAR ?

Dude, take your thorazine or whatever sedative you're supposed to take on regular basis, and just leave me the hell alone.

Take your pompous quotes with you, too.



lt-rentaroo wrote:
DiNalt,

I was trying to be nice, maybe I was a bit rude. You must understand, I get a little concerned when folks make statements of that nature without (and excuse me if I'm wrong here) understanding fully what it is they are talking about. I'm guessing from the tone of your reply that you are probably about 15 years old, so I'll let the smart-ass tone slide. By the way, to quote a movie "Far more men, way better than you have rendered me that courtesy, don't disgrace them".
Have a nice day!

tedehara
02-26-2001, 05:46 PM
akiy wrote:
Hi folks,

What do you think the state of the aikido community/world will be like in ten years?

-- Jun

Almost all of O Sensei's original students will be gone by 2011, those that will be alive will probably not be active in Aikido. The senior students now, would be the new leadership in these future aikido organizations. That means more nationalities represented in the top ranks, not just Japanese.

Because the founding instructors would not be there, this could create an opportunity for some wide-spread schisms. However, I tend to believe that all the major styles of aikido (like Yoshinkan, Ki Society, Tomiki and Aikikai) will continue as separate organizations.

There will probably be less independent dojos around, since aikido seems like a martial art where credentials and centralized authority are important. Although it will be harder for the centralized authority in Japan to deal with its various national organzations, since things will be more like the UN than a Japanese megacorporation.

There also might be more blended aikido. This would be where the martial artist studies aikido & "name another martial art here". It is more likely the other martial art will be tournament oriented. In this way, the individual uses the technical principles of aikido to gain an edge in a sports/tournament-setting.

You will also see the "Principles of Aikido" used more in settings outside of the traditional dojo. Just like Aiki Extensions (http://www.aiki-extensions.org/) now, things learned on the mat will be used more in areas like sociology and psychology.

Of course, there could be some other great event that would overshadow everything else. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. :)

lt-rentaroo
02-26-2001, 06:11 PM
DiNalt,

I apologize for the arrogant tone, I wasn't trying to be that way. However, I feel your replies are a bit rude. I've got a great sense of humor, I just don't find anything funny about nuclear war. I should have worded my replies in a different manner. The quote was not meant to be pompous, it was meant as a way to demonstrate that you should show people a general courtesy. I'm not going to respond with remarks that degrade your mental capacity, that would be inappropriate of me. Have a nice day.

Ted,

Excellent post, I agree with the changing organizations and the use of Aikido principles outside of Aikido. Several colleges and universities are beginning programs that focus on Ki principles. You are right, the future will be interesting.

[Edited by lt-rentaroo on February 26, 2001 at 05:18pm]

DiNalt
02-26-2001, 06:26 PM
lt-rentaroo wrote:
I've got a great sense of humor, I just don't find anything funny about nuclear war.

I don't find anything funny about a real nuclear war either. In fact I pray it doesn't happen.

My initial reply meant to be a creative spoof of the type of universe portrayed in movies like Madmax, Waterworld and computer games like Fallout - not to mention post-apocalyptic science fiction novels.

And the "routine nuclear bombing" was a parody on the Bush's statement on how the recent bombing of Iraq was a "routine bombing".

Erik
02-26-2001, 06:36 PM
akiy wrote:
Hi folks,

What do you think the state of the aikido community/world will be like in ten years?

-- Jun

Interesting as I was just thinking about this one in regards to my neck of the woods. The AANC has 3 divisions of which only one has a clearly defined successor that I see. I would imagine that if either of the other two were no longer with us there would be fragmentation in the organization. Personally, I don't see anyone likely to step into the vacuum that I would be interested in being under in any formal manner. Not that they aren't good Aikidoka but they just ain't the same thing. I'm only guessing but I'd bet that many folks would feel the same way.

I think I disagree with Ted on the idea of independent dojos. I think there will be more the further we get away from the first generation aikidoka (those who have trained with the founder). A lot of the glue in the Aikido world is the awe in which these people are held. Once that starts going away, and it will, I think the model will inevitably change into a much more fractured environment. I think we could look to karate and other arts for our future.

lt-rentaroo
02-26-2001, 06:37 PM
DiNalt,

I understand, I apologize for reading too much into your original post. Perhaps one day we will meet and train together. Sorry to all the other forum readers for letting this post drift off its intended subject. Have a good evening.

DiNalt
02-26-2001, 06:48 PM
lt-rentaroo wrote:
DiNalt,

I understand, I apologize for reading too much into your original post. Perhaps one day we will meet and train together. Sorry to all the other forum readers for letting this post drift off its intended subject. Have a good evening.

I want to apologize for my hostility as well.
Don't you just hate misunderstandings ?

Have a good day ;)

tedehara
02-26-2001, 07:21 PM
Erik wrote:
I think I disagree with Ted on the idea of independent dojos. I think there will be more the further we get away from the first generation aikidoka (those who have trained with the founder). A lot of the glue in the Aikido world is the awe in which these people are held. Once that starts going away, and it will, I think the model will inevitably change into a much more fractured environment. I think we could look to karate and other arts for our future.

Recently, two independent dojos in my area have affiliated themselves with national organizations. Within the last few years all of the independents in my area have affiliated themselves.

I tend to see aikidoists as more conservative than other martial arts groups. After all, they could have gone with a fashionable martial art like Gracie ju-jitsu rather than one that emphasized tradition and Japanese etiquette.

However, you could very well be right. If aikido groups follow the model of some other Japanese martial arts, aikido could be fractured down to various independent dojos and regional organizations.

Well, we'll see. Maybe 10 years from now, we can have a message posting "How well did you guess about Aikido's Future?" :D

Jim23
02-26-2001, 07:28 PM
DiNalt wrote:
I want to apologize for my hostility as well.
Don't you just hate misunderstandings ?


Look what happens when I'm away.

Were you messin' with my buddy? ;)

I'm glad you cooled down ... or I'd have to come over there.

Jim23

lt-rentaroo
02-26-2001, 08:21 PM
Hello Jim,

DiNalt and I settled our differences peacefully.

No need to drop any bombs ;)

Have a good evening!

Erik
02-26-2001, 09:08 PM
tedehara wrote:
Recently, two independent dojos in my area have affiliated themselves with national organizations. Within the last few years all of the independents in my area have affiliated themselves.


Actually, you make a good point here. I've seen a number of folks recently affiliate or probably more accurately reaffiliate.

I tend to see aikidoists as more conservative than other martial arts groups. After all, they could have gone with a fashionable martial art like Gracie ju-jitsu rather than one that emphasized tradition and Japanese etiquette.

I don't know on this one. I'm certainly different than most folks here on the need for etiquette and tradition. I also came out of an independent dojo (since then I've been assimilated into the collective) so it's no big deal to me. In fact, if not for my current instructor, I'd probably be a ronin wandering from dojo to dojo which I still do. Maybe this warps my perspective (even more than it normally is) as to what everyone else is thinking.

As I think on it, I remember someone on this forum saying "it just makes sense to affiliate...." and my mind went ??????? so I'm probably just different. Still, it will be very interesting to see what happens in the future.

DiNalt
02-27-2001, 12:04 AM
Jim23 wrote:
DiNalt wrote:
I want to apologize for my hostility as well.
Don't you just hate misunderstandings ?


Look what happens when I'm away.

Were you messin' with my buddy? ;)

I'm glad you cooled down ... or I'd have to come over there.

Jim23

I'm glad to find out that, as impossible as it is to believe, I'm not the lamest person in here.

Thank you, Jim.

shadow
02-27-2001, 04:19 AM
DiNalt wrote:


-- Jun

After the Third World War initiated by George W. Bush as a routine nuclear bombing, the remaining Aikidoka will be wandering the barren, radiated wastelands, hiding in the underground sewers from storms and giant mutated rats - their bokkens and katanas as their only weapons.



I wouldn't feel safe using a bokken against a giant mutated rat, a katana maybe, but certainly not a bokken!

Sam
02-27-2001, 07:17 AM
The combination of lesiure activities becoming more and more popular together with a general fall of the standard of living in the developed world will probably mean and increase in people seeking a cheaper alternative to going to their expensive gym and more people training (maybe?)

There is also the possiblity of tomiki aikido becoming an olympic sport in the next few years (I heard).

ian
02-27-2001, 09:39 AM
I think aikido may continue to become increasingly split. I expect one section of the aiki community will go down the road of 'the harder you apply the technique the better' and it will revert more towards ju-jitsu. Another section will be almost dance orientated with superficial attacks and stylised movements which have no self-defence application.

Unfortunately I think that much of a 'blending' style aikido which is also suitable for self-defence will become increasingly rare. I thought it was interesting about aikido being used to assist people practising other martial arts esp. in competition. Maybe aikido will rub off on other martial arts and produce a more 'blending' approach.

Sorry to be cynical, but I think things tend to get watered down as they become less used in real situations. I'm sure we all know of various techniques that 'other people' practise, or styles which we think are completely ineffective. I think no matter how much we argue over it, its only stuff which is practised for real which can be really assessed for its effectiveness - and most people don't get the opportunity to do that to any extent.

Also, although we like to think that all Ueshiba's Uchideshis adapated their aikido to suit their body/temperament etc, I worry that really, all the uchideshis didn't get the whole picture and Ueshibas aikido was only practised by Ueshiba.

Ian

tedehara
02-27-2001, 02:35 PM
ian wrote:

...Also, although we like to think that all Ueshiba's Uchideshis adapated their aikido to suit their body/temperament etc, I worry that really, all the uchideshis didn't get the whole picture and Ueshibas aikido was only practised by Ueshiba.
Ian

I thought that was a given. O Sensei's aikido ended with O Sensei. If you study a style from one of his students, you will reflect the styles of your instructors plus your own expression of aikido.

Much of aikido has to do directly with the person. Because of the personality of Morihei Ueshiba, much of his understanding has been forgotten. Many of his students mentioned that he spoke Japanese in a feudal manner, even though he lived in the 20th century.

Most of his students used what they understood and developed their aikido with those understandings. The only person whose approach might be slightly different is Saito Sensei of Iwami Ryu. It appears that he documented O Sensei's techniques, like a good modern journalist would do. Trying to leave out his own subjective feelings on the descriptions of the techniques.

Did Ueshiba have any special insights into aikido? Perhaps. During the last year of his life, Takahashi Sensei visited O Sensei in Japan. They were walking down a road, when the founder looked at Takahashi Sensei and said "I think I'm finally able to understand this Aikido thing (my paraphrasing)."

That was O Sensei's understanding. I'll have my understanding. You'll have your understanding.

[Edited by tedehara on February 27, 2001 at 06:15pm]

Nick
02-27-2001, 05:17 PM
That reminds me of a prspective student of Aikido who walked up to O'sensei one day-- he told O'sensei, "Wow, this is very interesting. I would really like to practice your Aikido sometime." O'sensei replied "Well, that's odd-- everyone else wants to practice their Aikido."

Paraphrased by me, as stories told by mouth often are...

I'm also of the belief that Aikido will become more like karate or ju-jitsu, but rather with different styles all calling themselves Aikido... however, I can only hope that the principles, the ettiquete, the true Spirit of Aiki remains untainted for many years to come so that the next generation of Aikidoka can enjoy a wonderful way of life.

Nick

Jim23
02-27-2001, 10:13 PM
DiNalt wrote:
Jim23 wrote:
DiNalt wrote:
I want to apologize for my hostility as well.
Don't you just hate misunderstandings ?


Look what happens when I'm away.

Were you messin' with my buddy? ;)

I'm glad you cooled down ... or I'd have to come over there.

Jim23

I'm glad to find out that, as impossible as it is to believe, I'm not the lamest person in here.

Thank you, Jim.

Don't mention it. :eek:

I'm always happy to help people find themselves. BTW, next time, please use my full name.

Jim23

DiNalt
02-28-2001, 01:51 AM
Jim23 wrote:
DiNalt wrote:
Jim23 wrote:
DiNalt wrote:
I want to apologize for my hostility as well.
Don't you just hate misunderstandings ?


Look what happens when I'm away.

Were you messin' with my buddy? ;)

I'm glad you cooled down ... or I'd have to come over there.

Jim23

I'm glad to find out that, as impossible as it is to believe, I'm not the lamest person in here.

Thank you, Jim.

Don't mention it. :eek:

I'm always happy to help people find themselves. BTW, next time, please use my full name.

Jim23

I'm not aware of your full name, Jim, because you don't sign your posts with it.

andrew
02-28-2001, 05:59 AM
ian wrote:

Also, although we like to think that all Ueshiba's Uchideshis adapated their aikido to suit their body/temperament etc, I worry that really, all the uchideshis didn't get the whole picture and Ueshibas aikido was only practised by Ueshiba.

Ian

The problem is people aren't happy to learn new things. I'm sure we've all encountered the guy at a course who doesn't do the technique as demonstrated because that's not how he learned it the first time, and "corrects" you for actually paying attention to the teacher. Actually, most of us ARE that guy a fair amount of the time. Too many people spend too much time being good students to bad teachers and bad students to good ones.
My first teacher constantly told us that we couldn't learn aikido from one person. That's probably why I spend so much time reading this. (Reading doesn't improve my Aikido, but sometimes it gives me a new approach to bring to the mat.) Which reminds me that I want to start training with the local ki-aikido club as well. So there you go.

andrew

Jim23
02-28-2001, 06:14 AM
DiNalt wrote:
[QUOTE]
I'm not aware of your full name, Jim, because you don't sign your posts with it.

Jim23

NYFE Man
02-28-2001, 08:01 AM
DiNalt wrote:


I'm not aware of your full name, Jim, because you don't sign your posts with it.



Jim23


Jim23? Gim23? I'm just getting confused now! :D

Jim23
02-28-2001, 08:07 AM
NYFE Man wrote:

Jim23? Gim23? I'm just getting confused now! :D



Good point! :)

Gimmy23

ian
02-28-2001, 08:07 AM
I was really interested to hear what O'Sensei had said about his own aikido, Ted and Nick. One thing I would like to ask Ted (or anyone else that knows);

I've heard that Ueshiba actually disliked the use of weapons in the dojo (esp. later on in his life) and said that it wasn't aikido; actually reprimanding someone for bringing a bokken (I think) into the 'class'. Ted, you said that Saito noted much of Ueshibas stuff down in an objective way. However, Saito is well known for his weapon work (probably through his 'advanced aikido' range of books). Also, Ueshiba's uchidechi went off for weekends etc and did a lot of weapon work.

Did Ueshiba feel weapon work was a part of aikido, or did he not? Or did he just not want to train his non uchideschi students in weapon work (was he worried that someone he didn't know or trust would be learning it?).

Any views?

Ian

andrew
02-28-2001, 08:25 AM
ian wrote:
Did Ueshiba feel weapon work was a part of aikido, or did he not? Or did he just not want to train his non uchideschi students in weapon work (was he worried that someone he didn't know or trust would be learning it?).



I have read that Saito Sensei was the only person ALLOWED to teach weapons by O Sensei, apart from his good self.

I have heard (and it may be completely incorrect) that in Japan you go to one place to learn your (non-weapon) aikido and another to learn your weapons. (Perhaps this only happens in some places?)

I'd imagine he was just fairly particular about teaching weapons. Perhaps he was concerned that a student taught badly or not enough in Aikiken or Aikijo would be badly shown up by kendoka, Iaidoka, Jodoka etc. and acquire a bad reputation for his O Senseis Budo?
andrew

ian
02-28-2001, 10:47 AM
Cheers. That seems to make sense. Maybe Ueshiba thought Aikido wouldn't spread as rapidly as it did (or even as far), and therefore Saito would have the chance to go around the world teaching everyone weapons work for Aikido. (Looking at Chiba's weapon work I would say he hasn't done too badly off himself).

Ian

DiNalt
02-28-2001, 02:06 PM
Jim23 wrote:
DiNalt wrote:
[QUOTE]
I'm not aware of your full name, Jim, because you don't sign your posts with it.

Jim23

I can just imagine a cop pulling you over, asking for your driver's license, and then going "In all of my godforsaken career... what the HELL is that ? Your last name is '23' ?!"

Jim23
02-28-2001, 04:21 PM
DiNalt wrote:

I can just imagine a cop pulling you over, asking for your driver's license, and then going "In all of my godforsaken career... what the HELL is that ? Your last name is '23' ?!"

OK, it's actually James Twentythree ;), but we're all friends here.

Jim23

Mike Collins
02-28-2001, 06:28 PM
There is a thread here, which is interesting, and to which I'd like to add my opinion:

Aikido, and the whole world will be different. If I train well, and develop my Aikido, it will seem to be better. If I train less well, and devolve, it will seem worse, and I'll be looking back on the "good old days". There are some pretty tremendous younger teachers who will probably just get better. The good old days weren't all that good, and tommorrow aint as bad as it seems (to quote Billy Joel).

There is also a sub thread which is one of the most stupid and inane things I've read in a long time. I'm proud of ya fellas.

DiNalt
02-28-2001, 07:39 PM
Mikey wrote:
There is a thread here, which is interesting, and to which I'd like to add my opinion:

Aikido, and the whole world will be different. If I train well, and develop my Aikido, it will seem to be better. If I train less well, and devolve, it will seem worse, and I'll be looking back on the "good old days". There are some pretty tremendous younger teachers who will probably just get better. The good old days weren't all that good, and tommorrow aint as bad as it seems (to quote Billy Joel).

There is also a sub thread which is one of the most stupid and inane things I've read in a long time. I'm proud of ya fellas.


And you're helping everyone to forget about it by... ?

Mike Collins
02-28-2001, 07:52 PM
Sorry, I didnt realize it was my responsibility to help anyone forget anything.

I once read a teabag which said "A spoken word, once uttered, remains in the public domain for 9 years" The internet may be worse.

DiNalt
02-28-2001, 10:00 PM
Mikey wrote:
Sorry, I didnt realize it was my responsibility to help anyone forget anything.

I once read a teabag which said "A spoken word, once uttered, remains in the public domain for 9 years" The internet may be worse.

I phrased it wrong.
What I meant to say was "And you're not exactly helping, either."

Nor am I, actually.

BC
03-01-2001, 10:50 AM
There's been some serious thread drift here, and I don't think the flaming is helping any...

Anyway. I think that ten years from now the aikido community will be reflective of some significant changes that are just now starting to arise today. One of the biggest will be how the art's leaders dealt with the transition from being an art taught and led by aikidoka one or two generations removed from its founder to individuals three or four generations removed. At the same time the art will most likely be even more international in its membership, and I think the leadership within the various aikido organizations will reflect that. I think that as others have pointed out, there could be more organizations formed as a result of fissures between today's existing ones. But at the same time, I think that there might be more collaboration and cooperation between these future organizations than what we see today. Essentially, new walls will be created and old walls will be brought down. This seems to be pretty consistent with other aspects of humanity. Also, many people have said that today aikido is one of the fastest growing martial arts in tems of increasing popularity, athough the number of people practicing it is still significantly smaller than that of judo, karate, TKD, etc. I think this accellerated growth will probably slow in ten years, but the number of people practicing could be on a parity with some of the more popular arts today.

For me, in ten years I hope that I will still be alive and practicing aikido, and that I will be able to utilize my aikido in more aspects of my life. Like dealing with my future-to-be teenage children.