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Devin McDowell
07-13-2004, 11:46 AM
1. How do you defend against a horizontal swing from a baseball bat aimed at hip or stomach level?

2. When usinga round-house kick, which part of the foot is used to hit the target?

Thanks in advance for any help.

senshincenter
07-13-2004, 12:34 PM
1. Angle of Deviation: Move out to zero-pressure, or move in to zero-pressure.

2. The part of the foot used in the kick is dependent upon the target. Under those considerations the roundhouse kick generally employs the ball of the foot, the instep, or even the toes. (Note: Other parts of the leg are used in roundhouse fashion as well.)

Devin McDowell
07-13-2004, 12:48 PM
Thank you very much, but what do you mean by "angle of deviation"?

senshincenter
07-13-2004, 01:06 PM
"Angle of Deviation" is that angle by which you move out of the way of the Angle of Attack (i.e. of the body moving forward and of the limb/bat moving horizontally) BUT place yourself in a position at which or from which you can launch your own Angle of Attack. (i.e. Get out of the way by moving to place from which you can attack).

Angle of Deviation is a tactial term and it is different from just "getting out of the way" because of the restriction of also having to be able to launch one's own Angle of Attack in a tactically valid manner from where one moved to.


Hope that is of some assistance.

Yours,
dmv

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-13-2004, 02:19 PM
You might try 'countering circle with triangle' and step into the center of the swing, where you can grab and control, not unlike a yokomenuchi kokyunage.
Alternatively, stop it before it starts - as they wind up, rush in and stop it before it acquires power, or maybe even before it begins to move.

Mike Collins
07-13-2004, 02:48 PM
Sounds like you're both suggesting the same things, just saying it differently.

For me:

Defense against a horizontal swing of a baseball bat, I try not to be where the bat hits and hurts. I'll take a hit if I need to, but not in the sweet spot, if possible. Jam or get outside, either is good. But if ya get outside, get all the way outside.

There, I just said it again, but differently. We all said pretty much the same thing, I think.

A horizontal swing is not radically different from a yokomen done poorly. A horizontal swing SHOULD give you a lot of time to see it.

When kicking, I don't kick. My feet like the ground just fine thank you. If I were to kick, it'd probably only be a low kick, more as atemi to affect balance than for effect of great force. And most likely only a front snapping kick. Been in a lot of fights when I was young, and watched a lot more. In most cases, kicks are a poor strategic choice.

gilsinnj
07-13-2004, 03:38 PM
I've always been taught to "enter in" in cases like these. Many of the people in this thread have described entering inside of the strike to the stomach or ribs. This is also similar to what we've been taught.

When it comes to round-house kicks, the defense is very similar, get inside the range of the foot. If you take a hit, it won't have nearly as much force as if it did at the full extension of the kick. Also, I've always been taught to do a round-house kick that impacts the top of the foot against the other person. We prefer low kicks since high ones leave you more open to counters and being off balance. With a low round-house kick to the knee or thigh, you hit with the flat section of your foot between the ancle and the toes. Make sure to point your foot and toes to make it less likely you will break them.

-- Jim

senshincenter
07-13-2004, 03:41 PM
Yeah - I think all these "answers" are the same thing. If we want to try something different, here are some others:

- get a longer bat
- get a firearm (if no firearms are allowed in your country, try a throwing star, a blow dart gun, or a slingshot)
- have your friend come up from behind and whack him over the head with a bat of his own
- use your attack dogs to surround him and then simultaneously bite him from every angle (be sure to have your least favorite dog close the gap from the front, your favorite dog comes in from the back)
- lure him over the tiger trap you dug earlier that day (spikes optional)
- throw him a ball right in the middle of the strike zone, catch it when it is hit, and then throw it real fast right back at his face (or you can always catch the ball two more times, then he's out, and then it is your turn to use the bat)
- get to your horse and mount it real fast with the help of your squire - then CHARGE!

Any of these things will also work - just as well as moving in or out.

hee hee,
d

Dario Rosati
07-13-2004, 05:12 PM
A horizontal swing is not radically different from a yokomen done poorly. A horizontal swing SHOULD give you a lot of time to see it.


I agree.

We practice this kind of evasion in Katori Shinto Ryu: uke attacks in yokomenuchi aiming at your hip with his bokken (in this example, the bat). An horizontal swing would be slower and easier to evade, so I think this applies.
Tori raises his hands as to prepare a jodan guard (http://www.katorishinto.it/Bokjodan.gif) and at the same time moves his center swiftly to the back with an ayumi-ashi to evade the bokken/bat, both with arms and hip... raising the hands makes all the movement (arms + feet + center) natural.
The bokken (bat) misses, and you're free to cut his arms/wrists with your already charged bokken. Barehanded (i.e. from an aikido view) I would enter (irimi) in ura and apply whatever uke's unbalance derived from the missed swing permits (kotegaeshi or iriminage for example; in a "real" situation with a bat, i'll strike with an atemi directly to the back/side of the head/face, or at least grab his wrists to block the bat).


Bye!

Devin McDowell
07-13-2004, 05:26 PM
Thank you all so very much for your help.

batemanb
07-14-2004, 02:55 AM
As most above have stated, enter. Is the bat held with one or two hands? I think most would swing it with two, therefore enter on the backswing, use the ikkyo principle on the arm across the body, extremely effective. If they are swinging the bat single handed, still enter in on the back swing, don't forget a good atemi to the face, at this point you can either turn inside the swing so that uke comes around you, your resulting technique is up to you but a nage waza should be quite effective. Or you can take the swinging arm before it starts coming forward, cut back and down for a sumio otoshio, cut down and across for a shihonage, go under and through for sankyo. The list is endless, all techniques are available to you providing you have avoided the blow and gotten your uke off balance.

WIth regards to Mike's comments about taking the blow if neccessary, this is not as silly as it may sound ;), as long as you are entering. The full power of the swing will not be effective until it has built up momentum, so if the blow connects just after it has started forward, there's not that much power in it, I'm not saying that it won't hurt :) but it won't do any where near the same damage as it would if you were taking the blow at the apex of its power. The same principle can be used against a punch, i.e. if someone aims a chudan tsuki at you, enter towards it so that when they hit you, their elbow hasn't passed infront of their body or is at least close to it, there's nowhere near the power in the blow. I'm not suggesting you all go out and try this, but it is something we practice from time to time, if only to help with the mindset of entering an attack.

Best to avoid getting hit at all times :D.

rgds

Bryan

xuzen
07-14-2004, 03:27 AM
Dear devin,

As the agressor swings his bat backwards, step in front of his face, hug him tight and plant a good wet & juicy kiss on his cheek. Just see his reaction... Ha ha ha hoo hee hee!!! Oops I just remember that this is a rated 'U' webside. Better stop at this. WRT to round house kick, dunno, not into foot fetish yet...

OK ok, I just thought of lighten the mood, just came out of the Judo versus aikido thread and it has some very serious discussion going on.

Boon.

batemanb
07-14-2004, 04:25 AM
As the agressor swings his bat backwards, step in front of his face, hug him tight and plant a good wet & juicy kiss on his cheek. Just see his reaction...


That is a very valid atemi ;) and one that I have actually done on more than one occasion :D. I did it in Japan a few times, you're right, the reaction can be priceless :D.


rgds

Bryan

Devin McDowell
07-14-2004, 06:54 AM
"As the agressor swings his bat backwards, step in front of his face, hug him tight and plant a good wet & juicy kiss on his cheek."
Priceless! I should try that in the dojo sometime.

Bryan, thanks for the info. Hopefully I will never need it.

Amassus
07-14-2004, 07:57 PM
As the agressor swings his bat backwards, step in front of his face, hug him tight and plant a good wet & juicy kiss on his cheek. Just see his reaction

Heh, that is aiki, spreading the love. O' sensei would be proud!
:)

xuzen
07-14-2004, 11:11 PM
Bryan, Dean & Devin,

Thanks, you are all too kind.
Yeah, spread da'love man (say it in a Bob Marley fashion)!

Boon.

batemanb
07-15-2004, 02:07 AM
Another good one atemi is a wet finger in the ear when you do iriminage :)!

Give your middle finger a quick lick as you enter the attack, instead of going for the neck, place your hand gently around the side of the head, as you draw uke to you, insert said wet finger lightly into the ear (you're not trying to go caving here ;)), I guarantee that you will break his balance :D.

rgds

Bryan

senseimike
07-29-2004, 10:00 PM
I've also been taught to enter against an attack like this.... the most power will be at the end of the bat, also where the attackers ki or intent is. By moving in, you are moving to the part of the attack that has the least strength. Think of it as the eye of the storm. It's always been said that the storm rages on the outside, but the eye is calm. Myself being from tornado country, I would rather hear it and believe it than actually venture into the eye.

As for the question about the kick, if I do a roundhouse kick, it's low (below waist level) and I use the shin as a striking surface. This is not a good idea for everyone, you can injure yourself by doing this. I've had very limited experience in Muay Thai and that is where I picked it up. I'm not a big fan of kicks though.

batemanb
07-30-2004, 01:58 AM
hug him tight and plant a good wet & juicy kiss on his cheek. Just see his reaction... Ha ha ha hoo hee hee!!!

Last week I was teaching kokyu ho from hanmi handachi, tori kneeling, uke standing and pushing both hands on the shoulders. I demonstrated breaking uke's posture by body movement a couple of times, on uke's third try to push me over, I just tipped my head forward slightly and puckered a kiss very close to his face, the effect was instant, unable to contain his laughter, he crumpled to the floor in a heap :D .

rgds

Bryan

Jorx
07-31-2004, 05:25 AM
Always kick with the shin. There's not enough power in kicking with the foor or toes (exept maybe a kick to the head) and there's great risk of injury. Every (barefeet) full contact sport which allows kicks kicks usually with the shin. Be it kyokushinkai karate, muay thai, low kick kickboxing, in K1 or UFC.

Of course... kicking with the shin requires shin conditioning:)

Aikidoiain
09-11-2004, 03:53 PM
Hi Jim,

All the above are valid counters. The one I've used is to drop to the ground and either apply a low kick to the knee or a recumbant ankle throw. You need to be fast to do this though. It sends the attacker down for you to apply a joint lock of your choice.

As for the roundhouse kick - on the street I strike with the toes (always to the legs: not into high kicks). The power comes from the hip, as you pivot on your back foot ( the heel should be pointing at the attacker). In the dojo with bare feet, I strike with the flat part rather than the toes. A low roundhouse kick to the knee will drop any attacker.

Iain.

Aikidoiain
09-11-2004, 03:56 PM
Sorry, I meant Devin - not Jim. Oops!

Iain.

Devin McDowell
09-11-2004, 05:37 PM
Thanks Aikidoiain.

JayRhone
11-14-2004, 05:22 PM
For the bat. Get out of the way!! If that doesn't work, drop. Then put your feet on the lower part of the shin and push. If this doesn't work. Well, they have a bat. No one will think much of it if you simply put your foot into his um... owie part. Again if you want something more technical, rush in. They can't get the effectiveness the bat would have to offer if you are right next to him. Then simply put your foot behind him, grab his shoulder and take him to the ground. This will usually result in him face down. Then you can get away.

You usually try to strike with the top of your foot to the shin. If you have conditioned your shins enough this will not hurt. I have seen guys break bats, bamboo and forearms with their shins. If your shins are not conditioned. Then go for a soft part of the body. Sorry guys. I'm new to akido and have 11 years of MA behind me. It kicks in once and a while. No pun intended. =0)
Jay

Dazzler
11-26-2004, 10:51 AM
Its friday afternoon and time to go home...heres some thoughts for the weekend



All the above are valid counters. The one I've used is to drop to the ground and either apply a low kick to the knee or a recumbant ankle throw. You need to be fast to do this though. It sends the attacker down for you to apply a joint lock of your choice.

Iain.

Not a personal favourite for me since it risks lowering the head to meet the bat in full swing. Ok for glasgie boys but for us softie english a bit risky!

Dojo defence would be to step in using irimi / atemi. Maybe menuchi. Foot movement would be iwama-ryu's second suburi. From here absorb and trap the swinging arms and maybe finish with tenchi nage...anyones choice on how you finish from here. As has been pointed out..its a pretty poor attack.

More street based work would be to employ same entering foot movement but a more circular atemi in the form of a fine slap across the ear hole. Locate the eye socket with the thumb once youve landed the atemi and the head is yours. From here a rising knee or shin to the groin is fun for tori and as ukes head lowers grab both ears, twist the head and take him to floor. Strike at will pretty much from here. Or walk away.


As for the roundhouse kick - on the street I strike with the toes (always to the legs: not into high kicks). The power comes from the hip, as you pivot on your back foot ( the heel should be pointing at the attacker). In the dojo with bare feet, I strike with the flat part rather than the toes. A low roundhouse kick to the knee will drop any attacker.

Iain.

I think in the street I'd be wearing shoes but a front snap kick against the circular round house would suit me here. Target knees or nads depending on size (of the opponent not the nads :) ) If I've not got much time training instinct would kick in and I'd enter down the centre line maybe a straightforward strike to the head to send the assailant to the floor while he has 1 foot on the ground.

Really its tenchi nage again or maybe kokyuho.

Either way the move takes me inside the kick where its much less dangerous. If the kicker is still hanging around and not down then an inner hock combined with a palm heel to the jaw should change things a bit.

Once he's down its a choice thing on how you ensure he stays there (or she...).

As I say...a friday post. ;) just thinking out loud on the scenario.

Have a nice safe weekend everyone.

D