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M G
07-10-2004, 07:27 AM
I've noticed that in training certain techniques as uke (especially with kote gaeshi), i could easily give tori a nasty kick in the face when he throws me. Since you need both hands to perform the kote geashi i can't defend with my arm. I undertand that on the street it would be difficult to counter since you don't know what is coming, but does anyone have suggestions on this subject?

Thanks.

NagaBaba
07-10-2004, 07:59 AM
I've noticed that in training certain techniques as uke (especially with kote gaeshi), i could easily give tori a nasty kick in the face when he throws me. Since you need both hands to perform the kote geashi i can't defend with my arm. I undertand that on the street it would be difficult to counter since you don't know what is coming, but does anyone have suggestions on this subject?

Thanks.

Simply kick him. This way he can learn how to do technique right. Of course, next time, you will have to be very careful, cos he will change radically way of kotegaeshi(if he is any good) and you must be able to take it ;)

M G
07-10-2004, 11:49 AM
Ok, i'll try that one thanks.
But what if you are tori and uke tries to kick you when you execute the kote gaeshi.
What would be your anwser be to uke's foot? (unbalance doesn't work with me because he's already flying). Maybe switch his elbow in the ending pin in mid-air so he twists? (need to be fast the though)

L. Camejo
07-10-2004, 11:59 AM
Pull his arm sideways while sinking weight, stepping back and away from his incoming feet. In this case though the kotegaeshi ukemi will not save him as he will be having lateral instability added to the vertical instability. Basically, he will land shoulder, head or face first on the floor and be dragged a bit. Not a nice prospect if one is thinking about protecting one's aggressor, but will work if the foot is coming too close.

I don't recommend one try to practice this with a partner who you would like to show up the next day to train though. On the other hand it is best to practice technique with correct positioning and distancing to avoid the foot becoming a threat to begin with.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

M G
07-10-2004, 12:40 PM
Thank's for the recommendation!
I don't have problems with being a little hard sometimes, as long as there is no malice and/or fear from both sides, no one will get hurt.

Thanks.

csinca
07-10-2004, 02:02 PM
Machiel,

What you are descirbing is one of two reasons we no longer practice the style of kote that leads into a breakfall.

Chris

Don_Modesto
07-10-2004, 02:47 PM
Machiel,

What you are descirbing is one of two reasons we no longer practice the style of kote that leads into a breakfall.

Chris

I agree. Those sideways, high-lying KOTE GAESHI look flashy, but the "roll up the carpet" variety which puts UKE right onto his knee is safer.

Btw, try the kick when someone throws you. Don't hit them, but see how hard the UKEMI is; it like to knock the wind out of me (but it would have clocked my NAGE.)

Kyri Honigh
07-10-2004, 06:56 PM
Well at first somebody did the same to me, but when you apply the kotegaeshi grip carefully and strongly at a reasonable speed, getting kicked will be hard. The pain will not give him time to even think about kicking as he's just going to fast and resisting will hurt him (if he hasn't got wrists like my ankle's atleast). Even IF you get kicked, does it really pose a threat to you, or is it more a glancing blow. Never been kicked hard enough to either lose balance or feel any real pain, but then again the one kicking you, has he got any experience with kicks? Good luck with figuring out the best way do deal with it.I'd be happy to read about it.

Janet Rosen
07-11-2004, 12:36 AM
If one has unbalanced uke and is in a proper place, uke should not be able to do a kick nor in a position to land a good kick. This of course posits an ideal nage (big grin).

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-11-2004, 01:09 AM
*gestures to the chalkboard*
So, class, if we assume an ideal nage, you see that the ninja hordes and the robot dinosaurs cancel out, leaving us with just the Harmony variable, :ai:. Question in back? Ah, yes, indeed...even if robots are riding the robot dinosaurs. ... yes, I suppose even if the robot dinosaurs have studied BJJ. No, I don't think it makes a difference if the ideal nage is wearing an ideal hakama or not.

Jorx
07-11-2004, 03:03 AM
When he is able to kick you are standing in a wrong place...

Anyhow... kicks delivered in mid-air aren't as scary as you think... Far bigger problem is when throwing you are drawn to the ground if you are just a little bit late (pulled to open guard etc).

L. Camejo
07-11-2004, 08:26 AM
Last time I checked a kick gets more powerful as you project more hip power into it, either by turning or extension.

Unless I am mistaken, during kotegaeshi ukemi, both your legs (and by extension your hips) are rotating almost 360 degrees, at least 180 degrees by the time you encounter Tori's head. To me, this can generate a lot of power. The only difference to a normal roundhouse type kick is the plane of movement. However, if one maintains one's centre of gravity throughout the ukemi (as is supposed to be the case, else we would simply crash into the floor), one can focus a lot of power through the foot with this sort of hip movement. The only problem for the kick's effectiveness lies in what part of the foot actually strikes Tori and where Tori is struck.

There was one occasion where a Tori was dazed (read almost passed out) for a while after getting a light kick to the temple from a kotegaeshi ukemi. So I don't think that if one is intending to hit Tori that it will be so useless. A similar technique is used in Capoeira to generate power as well.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Kyri Honigh
07-11-2004, 04:01 PM
Hmm Hmmm, (nods head anime style). Ms Rosen and Mr Cimino, don't know if you were insinuating anything or not.. But I am NOT the ideal nage. Everybody messes up sometimes, but if it happens regularly nage is doing something wrong or overlooking something. About a kick getting more powerful when there is more hip thrown into it..it's true ofcourse. But when your throwing somebody you should be leading uke, and he should be unbalanced the whole time. IMO this is different drom a capoerista whirling to gain momentum for his kicks. If uke can kick the Sh%t out of you while you're performing a throw, he's either not unbalanced and just moving along out of free will or at the last moment you're grip has weakened so he can open up a bit. Mr Larry Camejo said:"However, if one maintains one's centre of gravity throughout the ukemi (as is supposed to be the case, else we would simply crash into the floor), one can focus a lot of power through the foot with this sort of hip movement". I think I understand what you said there, but if your position is good enough to deliver an extremely powerful kick..don't you think nage is doing something wrong??

L. Camejo
07-12-2004, 07:45 AM
I think I understand what you said there, but if your position is good enough to deliver an extremely powerful kick..don't you think nage is doing something wrong??

Yep, totally. :) It more often than not means that Uke's lower body (hips and legs) is a bit behind and very close to you, when in fact one should be able to see Uke's entire body at the point where the kotegaeshi becomes effective and he starts going over.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Greg Jennings
07-12-2004, 08:19 AM
The mechanics of throws is often very hard to discuss without training together. There is just so much context that is missing.

With that said, here is one (in three parts) thing to try that might help:
1.1 Rather than do kotegaeshi at hip/chest level, do it at thigh or even knee level.
1.2 Having unbalanced uke, do not give them their balance back by raising the hands back up. Keep them at thigh or knee level when you pivot.
1.3 When you pivot, put their hand down directly behind them or directly in front of them rather than to the side.

Best regards,

Dario Rosati
07-12-2004, 07:15 PM
When he is able to kick you are standing in a wrong place...


I quote this.
You're probably not "entering" enough, or fast enough.

Try this: ask your uke to try to punch you in the face with his left arm when applying a nikkyo-ura to his right arm.
If you're fast enough, not only he can't, but your final irimi tenkan will be ten times powerful due to his momentum.

The same thing applies in the kotegaeshi "kick": when you "recall" the uke after grabbing his wrist but before applying the pin, he's probably trying to punch you in the face with the free hand, or to kick with the external leg.

If you're doing right, you'll apply the pin/entering just before he lands the punch/kick, and not only you'll not get a kick from him, but your kotegaeshi will be more powerful due to his momentum reversed against him through the wrist pin.

As always, IMHO: I'm the last wheel of the chariot (1 year of practice).

Bye!

Ron Tisdale
07-14-2004, 06:34 AM
Hi Larry,

Yep, that kick does indeed generate a lot of power. It is easier than most think to deliver it...the jumping breakfall to deliver the kick is quite standard in many forms of aikido. I find it hardest to do that type of breakfall when kotegaishi is applied in the manner Don and some others described...but if you reach with the back hand to the floor you can soften the shock of the landing quite a bit.

The hardest thing is to always get the turn into shite when they are aware of that trick...a good atemi at the correct moment can forestall the turn into shite. Keeping the hand low also helps.

FWIW

Ron

batemanb
07-15-2004, 05:29 AM
I concur with Janet and Jorgen, if you have moved correctly you shouldn't be in a position to be kicked in the face by the passing leg. It's something that happened to me many years ago, and yes, the kick generates a lot of power, I've tried not to be there ever since.


rgds

Bryan

L. Camejo
07-15-2004, 06:32 AM
Hi Larry,

Yep, that kick does indeed generate a lot of power. It is easier than most think to deliver it...the jumping breakfall to deliver the kick is quite standard in many forms of aikido. I find it hardest to do that type of breakfall when kotegaishi is applied in the manner Don and some others described...but if you reach with the back hand to the floor you can soften the shock of the landing quite a bit.

The hardest thing is to always get the turn into shite when they are aware of that trick...a good atemi at the correct moment can forestall the turn into shite. Keeping the hand low also helps.

FWIW

Ron

Very true Ron,

My point was that in the event you did have poor positioning and the kick was within threatening range, the technique could still be applied safely at least for Tori by pulling the wrist and arm on which you are doing kotegaeshi backward and towards the floor in mid-technique by doing backward tsugi ashi and sinking the hips.

At the time of going into the ukemi, Uke has already adjusted his position based on where Tori's body and his own wrist and arm are in space. By moving the wrist/arm horizontally in mid-ukemi you are doing a sort of "mid-Ukemi kuzushi", disrupting his intended movement (which would have hit you in the head anyway) and causing the spiral of his legs to flatten out in mid-air (taking them away from your body as he turns over). The only problem lies in when he hits the ground as it will be sort of like a side ukemi while sliding head first along the mat after impact. Not too nice for Uke imo (unless he is very light and flexible), hence the reason I advised folks against practicing it too much.

Just my 2 cents. This is some of the theoretical stuff I work on as I've found there are Jujutsu schools here that teach Ukemi as an offensive manouever and these students sometimes come into my class and injure people.:)

LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
07-15-2004, 12:05 PM
:) Its not just jujutsu schools that train this...:)

Good post. I'll have to find someone light and flexible to try your counter with...

Ron