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BLangille
07-09-2004, 02:39 PM
Is it bad form for nage to move before uke has a chance to complete a grab? for example ryotedori, uke steps in and tries to grab nages wrists. nage steps back while moving his hands down to his center. Uke can either grasp air, or dive down to grab the wrists, unbalancing himself in the process.

Janet Rosen
07-09-2004, 03:39 PM
It depends entirely on the convention that is agreed to within the dojo, by that class' instructor, or by the pair practicing.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-09-2004, 04:10 PM
Well, now that nage's hands are down low, uke also has a number of openings available for another offensive maneuver...shomen-uchi, ganmen-tsuki, yokomen-uchi, suri-age shomen-uchi...

BLangille
07-09-2004, 06:28 PM
While its true I could throw in another sort of attack, I am under the impression that to be a good uke, you have to be committed to the proper attack, whichever one you happen to be practicing. I just dont think it is helpful to nage to unbalance myself by chasing his hands wherever he happens to move them. But I also dont feel right stopping my attack in the middle of it. Any suggestions?

L. Camejo
07-09-2004, 06:44 PM
Hey Brian,

In my understanding, as Tori (nage) one may be aiming to develop a degree of timing that causes Tori to lead Uke's attack a little bit, causing him to unbalance himself and overextend by moving just before the grab has settled. If the movement is too early and Uke discerns it and feels it necessary to change or stop the attack then Tori's timing is a bit off. But it is just as bad imo (unless if deliberately practicing a technique from a static position) to move too late after Uke has already grabbed and settled his attack.

Shihan Fumiaki Shishida gave me an example of this directly from Tomiki's teaching recently - In a grab, even though it looks like one movement, there are actually many very small movements. If you take 1 as the beginning of the grab and 10 as the completed and locked in grab, we should aim to be moving and applying kuzushi before 10 has occurred. The idea is to keep our movement as Tori just one step or so ahead of Uke's movement to lead his mind into thinking he can land the grab, even as he puts himself off balance trying to do so.

However, as indicated above by others, it all depends on what you are practicing, your dojo norms etc. Properly timed early movement is necessary to develop one's timing and leading skills though imo.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Charles Hill
07-09-2004, 08:35 PM
Hi Brian,

At a USAF midwest camp, someone asked Tohei Akira Shihan how O`Sensei`s uke grabbed him, soft/hard/?. Tohei Sensei replied that O`Sensei never let anyone get a firm grab on him.

Charles Hill

BLangille
07-10-2004, 08:21 AM
If the movement is too early and Uke discerns it and feels it necessary to change or stop the attack then Tori's timing is a bit off.

I think this may be the case. Thank you for your input.
Brian

NagaBaba
07-10-2004, 09:07 AM
Is it bad form for nage to move before uke has a chance to complete a grab? for example ryotedori, uke steps in and tries to grab nages wrists. nage steps back while moving his hands down to his center. Uke can either grasp air, or dive down to grab the wrists, unbalancing himself in the process.

this is real aikido, but you can move only in the moment when attacker can't change a way of his attack. Difficult to do with experienced attackers.

batemanb
07-11-2004, 03:13 AM
Is it bad form for nage to move before uke has a chance to complete a grab?


No, not unless the class is specifically practicing from static. It is important to practice from a strong static position initially, this helps you learn to feel what`s happening with your uke. If you can do the technique on someone using a strong solid attack, you can do it on anyone.

As you progress, things change, that`s when we try and not let uke take a firm hold. Ma ai and timing are the important points here, move too soon and uke will just stop, stand too close and uke doesn`t move so much. If your ma ai is good, and you maintain it at all times, uke will be forced to move to grab you, if your timing is right, he will continue to try and grab you, that`s when you have kuzushi and uke falls into the technique, hopefully ;).


rgds
Bryan

Lyle Laizure
07-12-2004, 06:34 AM
I agree, it depends what the aim of the given practice is to be. The description given sounds like an advanced form of the technique used, also as mentioned, to develop timing etc. If this is what the sensei has shown, practice.

akiy
07-12-2004, 11:05 AM
As Lyle and others say above, it depends on the nature of practice -- both speciflcally (ie at the time of the practice) as well as generally (ie what's usually done at the dojo). Some places I've been accept that uke will try to follow along, trying to grab uke's wrist wherever it goes -- kind of like a horse always trying to get the carrot dangled in front of them. Other places will allow uke to "abort" the attack if uke feels that the target has changed too much to enable a safe and smart attack. I sometimes do the latter if the "lead" is so obvious that it leaves way too many openings; the original poster's example of stepping back and lowering the hands down to one's center might leave nage's face open.

Just like anything else, I think it's also a matter of timing, direction, and intent...

-- Jun