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solidsteven
07-08-2004, 08:57 AM
i spar almost every weekend with a karateka friend of mine.
he mostly attacks with oi-tsuki and mae-geri
and i try to defend myself with aikido

it really helps my aikido.its also very fun and interessting to do.

try it! :D

well, but here is my problem:

last time i wanted to focus on using ikkiyo and iriminage
aggainst his oi-tsuki

i had problems using ikkiyo because he would follow
with a second tsuki when i would grabe him

iriminage worked kind of well except that i was too far away
from him after entering, so that i would have to take a step
to throw him

i also had problems throwing him because he was standing
too good

any ideas what i can do better next time?

thanks

DCP
07-08-2004, 09:03 AM
When he strikes, step off line and atemi to the face. When he blocks his face, perform ikkyo on the blocking hand. Of course, if he doesn't block, you get to experience the joy of hitting him in the face ;)

Yo-Jimbo
07-08-2004, 10:34 AM
i spar almost every weekend with a karateka friend of mine.
he mostly attacks with oi-tsuki and mae-geri
and i try to defend myself with aikido

it really helps my aikido.its also very fun and interesting to do.

try it! :D

It is great that you have a friend with which to cross train. It can be a great reality check.

well, but here is my problem:

last time i wanted to focus on using ikkyo and iriminage
against his oi-tsuki

Sound like good choices. Remember that if both of you know what is going to happen in the training, it is different than the spontaneous choice.

i had problems using ikkyo because he would follow
with a second tsuki when i would grab him

Possible solutions:
enter more on the first with timing and a tsuki of your own that precludes your partners second tsuki (as mentioned),
ikkyo or iriminage (or anything else appropriate for that matter) the second tsuki,
find more subtle solutions like block the 2nd tsuki with the first hand (anything else that is appropriate).

iriminage worked kind of well except that i was too far away
from him after entering, so that i would have to take a step
to throw him

Get closer on entry or continue to step through on the throw, or both.

i also had problems throwing him because he was standing
too good

any ideas what i can do better next time?

thanks

Don't throw through his strength and structure. Either take his center at the beginning of the technique or if you find him back at stability, look to find the empty place in his balance.
Keep training, have fun, be safe.

Chad Sloman
07-08-2004, 12:03 PM
i
ii also had problems throwing him because he was standing
too good

any ideas what i can do better next time?

thanks

I'm guessing that he's planting his feet on his strikes like a good karateka. You need to get his balance before he plants his heels. Are you doing the "irimi" or "tenkan" version of iriminage. I generally use the "irimi" version when I spar full contact in karate and it works pretty good, but you really have to enter quick and get there first. It also works really good against mae geri as well. Same thing with ikkyo in that you really have to jam him up by getting there before he does and really occupying his space to keep him from planting his heels and getting good posture.

Greg Jennings
07-08-2004, 12:11 PM
Why do you wait for him to initiate?

Regards,

John Boswell
07-08-2004, 01:01 PM
I agree with Chad in that you need more empahsis in getting his balance. That is what would interupt the second tsuki. And... rather than use the omote or frontal form of ikkyo, I would go to the rear (ura). This too would help take his balance and would better use the force of his attack in with your technique.

... that is, if I'm understanding your story.

Get off line
Take his balance
Maintain a good ma ai


Good luck!

p00kiethebear
07-08-2004, 01:23 PM
i also had problems throwing him because he was standing
too good

any ideas what i can do better next time?


Pick up a rock and throw it at him. That will break his mind and since the mind moves the body it will also break his posture. When he starts yelling at you with stupid things like "You could have hurt me!" "that's not aikido!" "I need my insuline!" etc etc. take advantage of his broken mind and do whatever.

Wow i'm in an evil mood today

-Nathan

mj
07-08-2004, 06:39 PM
By now you are probably always standing in the same place when he attacks...getting ready to do your 'counter'.

acot
07-08-2004, 06:50 PM
I realize your focus is ikkyo, but when he goes for the second strike switch to Juji nage! with a large ten ken... Though be careful you don't use too much power Juji nage can result in serious damage if your friend doesn't know how to breakfall..

Ryan

xuzen
07-09-2004, 03:10 AM
Dear Friends,

Sorry to 'hijack' your thread for a little while. I just don't know where to put this and i don't think this is necessary to start a new thread. A couple of weeks ago I saw one of the best jiyu waza to date.

Two fellow dojo mates of mine, one, a san-dan aikidoka and also an accomplised kalaripayat practitioner, the other a nidan aikidoka and also a TKD instructor from another state. It was after class, as I was folding my dogi, these two players started some light randori. But within seconds, they both start to go at each other for real. I can feel that they were not holding back. They were at each other doing also henka waza (counter techniques). it was beautiful because it was so fluid, dynamic and unrehearsed.

The reason I mention that they are also experience practitioner of other art is because during their attack they also employed non-traditional attack and techniques, such as leg sweeps, knee locks/twist. I also notice that the TKD practitoner did not employed their traditional high kicks. I guess if he does, he would be at most disadvantaged. The kalaripayat player was very ground oriented, going very often at lower region of the body (e.g., ankle and knee) One very beautiful counter was when the kalaripayat guy did a kotageshi, the uke flip, then grab the arm of the shite and immediately executed a stomach throw. It was most unexpected, brilliantly executed.

The two players held all our attention for about 2 - 3 minutes. In the end, it was applause all around. It was just so unexpectedly real and beautiful.

Thanks for reading this.

Boon.

Bridge
07-09-2004, 06:41 AM
i also had problems throwing him because he was standing
too good

any ideas what i can do better next time?

thanks

Ashi barai his front foot while he is still in motion? As he's coming forward oi-tsuki, just catch his sleeve/elbow/shoulder to take his balance and sweep his foot (across his front) just before he plants it. I'm sure you can figure the taisabaki.

Chudan mawashi geri off his back leg is really nice to blend with accompanied by scooping him up bodily and dumping him on floor, while taking out his supporting leg. It's easy to throw a karateka with that, I've done it loads of times and been on the receiving end of it. And you can easily follow him down to pin him or make like you're going to punch him in the nethers, which is always a laugh!

ian
07-09-2004, 09:29 AM
First, initiate the attack if at all possible. Yokomen uchi to the neck or shomen to the head in attempt to get a block repsonse from uke, then do ikkyo.

To throw, examine where the feet of the opponent are. If they have a very 'stable' posture it is likely they plant their feet. Direction of throw should be perpendicular to a line drawn between their feet. However needs to be quick enough or changeable enough to allow for them compensating with their feet movement.

A very simple technique from solid attacks is just to enter deeply and quickly, with irimi-tenkan so you are behind them and choke them out. Very under-utilised. (P.S. I accept no responsbilitity for damage or death as a result of this technique).

Ian

solidsteven
07-09-2004, 10:20 AM
thank you for all your replies!

im gonna kick his A$$ next saturday and show him what
the ultimate Martial Art is! :D

have a nice day

AsimHanif
07-09-2004, 11:38 AM
Steve,
I think the above suggestions are good, but I would also add when he tsuki's don't attack his fist. Go higher towards his elbow because he is most likely retracting. But be committed whether his second punch is coming or not. If you commit to your tenshin ikkyo movement (for example) his punch even if landed won't have a substantial impact. Always expect to get hit, just minimize the damage, if possible.
My 2cents.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-09-2004, 11:42 AM
Wow! And people said "what is the ultimate art" is a timeless and impossible question...I greatly anticipate your resolution to this quandry!

By the way, Boon, I loved your post. I felt I could really see it happening. It sounded like a wonderful sight to see. One of my best aikido memories is doing "blending practice" with someone from a different style of aikido. Uke/nage would trade often; we just kind of flowed together, taking control if we spotted vulnerability. It wasn't competitive, however, at least not in spirit. It just seemed "natural." We did this for what must have been 15-20 minutes, and it was a great experience. I should try to repeat it sometime.

gamma80
07-09-2004, 01:57 PM
Just remember, as you initiate your new moves and demolish your buddy: Smile! Remember, we love our enemies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jepi
07-12-2004, 02:22 AM
By the way, which lesson your karateka friend is taking?
Loosing always? Very good friend!
Perhaps can you (or your friend) explain "sparring with an aikidoka"? I think both arts have their weak side...

solidsteven
08-02-2004, 02:03 PM
i followed your advices, so things got a bit better.
But im still not happy yet.

i also noticed an other problem, its about the speed of the battle.
Im not able to any aikido moves aggainst the karateka because its all to fast for me.
I ve also trained with my brother who does muay-thai, there
the speed is even faster than karate, and here i has even more problems than fighting the karateka.

do you have any advice how i can slower the battle, or how i should deal with highspeed battles?

thank you

Greg Jennings
08-02-2004, 02:45 PM
Are you letting him initiate or are you dictating the course of events to him?

Regards,

solidsteven
08-02-2004, 04:03 PM
we spar freely

i dont tell him what im exactly going to do, but he knows that im trying to do aikido.

the fight is in this style:

first i provoke him with jabs to attack me
when he attacks, i evade backwards, hoping that he will then
attack me with an overstretched-punch.

but everytime he overstreches i m to far away or he finds his balance right away

but the overstrechted-punches are rare.
instead he covers the distant with a second punch
which forces me to step back again

the whole thing continues until backed up to the wall

what can i do to prevent this?

David Yap
08-02-2004, 08:29 PM
Hi Steven,

snip ...
but everytime he overstreches i m to far away or he finds his balance right away

but the overstrechted-punches are rare.
instead he covers the distant with a second punch
which forces me to step back again

the whole thing continues until backed up to the wall

what can i do to prevent this?

My questions:

What is your experience (skill) in aikido versus his experience in karate? Have you done karate before (to a certain level) to understand the essentials of the art? Is your friend a competitive karate fighter?

Except for the last question, if your answers to the above are in negatives, then you have a lot of mat time to catch up on to turn those answers to positives. You are lucky in the sense that you have a karateka friend to spar with. I suggest that before the sparring, get your friend to do a set of kata; observe his posture, his timing and rhythm of the attacks (punches & kicks) and the blocks, then you will realize the difference between the karate attacks and the attacks adopted in an aikido class. The karate tries not to telegraph his attacks. One way of reading his intention(s) is to focus on the "launching pads" of the punches or kicks - meaning certain parts of his body need to move before the punch or kick reaches you. Free your mind, forget about techniques, just move half a step (either irimi or tenkan or both), do not allow him space to kick you. Keep moving during his attacks, find or create an opening, your technique will come naturally. Think like a karate, strike when you see an opening. Your maai, timing and footwork are essential. Dance with him, the key is to break his rhythm.

Regards

David

willy_lee
08-02-2004, 10:25 PM
first i provoke him with jabs to attack me
when he attacks, i evade backwards, hoping that he will then
attack me with an overstretched-punch.

but everytime he overstreches i m to far away or he finds his balance right away

but the overstrechted-punches are rare.
instead he covers the distant with a second punch
which forces me to step back again

the whole thing continues until backed up to the wall

what can i do to prevent this?
My ideas:
Don't back up -- evade while entering. If you enter properly he won't be able to hit you with the second punch -- you will be able to take his balance instead.

Think deflect and move in -- use triangular footwork.

Let us know how it works,

=wl

Robert Cheshire
08-05-2004, 09:42 PM
It might help to "control" the attack. Decide what would be the best way to do your technique then leave an opening in the area his arm or leg would need to be. Be sure to cover all the other spots. If you enter slightly with these openings it's almost natural to attack them.

I would also suggest that you don't keep one throw in mind. Throw with what presents itself. I've found that ashi waza and koshi waze techniques work well in these type of sparring (for me anyway). If lucky - the occasional sutemi works.

The key though is to control the attack (speed and location of thier strikes).

Jorx
08-06-2004, 02:01 AM
Well now we have come to the most obvious "weak" point of Aikido. All the "defensive" and "reactive" techniques Aikido has are meant against commited attacks. And anyone who has been into sportfighting of any kind and is an intelligent fighter does not give you any (at least not in a sparring situation). Not the karate-friend and Muay Thai guy nontheless.

As they are both strikers there's 2 easy solutions: take them down or go to clinch and beat/take them down from there.

How much "Aikido" you can find in both those two solutions is another question.

Bridge
08-06-2004, 02:28 AM
My ideas:
Don't back up -- evade while entering. If you enter properly he won't be able to hit you with the second punch -- you will be able to take his balance instead.

Think deflect and move in -- use triangular footwork.

Let us know how it works,

=wl

Try to break to the blind side of their attacks using triangular footwork. It works for me, though you won't necassarily get a takedown in. Easy ones in include break to their blind side followed by jab or mawashi geri. Then again you could probably take their balance from there...

Going backwards is difficult to control if you have an attacker who is strong. If you get backed against a wall, block and counter or break to the side or even attack.

If they're going to jab it's highly likely their shoulder will drop or their elbow twitches slightly before.

"Sparring is like jazz music; you have to manipulate the rythmn" - some previous karate instructor I forget who.

To anyone in the UK "Sparring is like making love to a beautiful woman..." :D

Greg Jennings
08-06-2004, 05:49 AM
when he attacks, i evade backwards, hoping that he will then
attack me with an overstretched-punch.

Well, there is your first mistake. Does your aikido teacher tell you to evade backwards?

Try this next time. When your opponent makes to punch, slip it to either the inside or outside and strike him in the face with your near-side hand. You might strike, but he might block. If he blocks, apply ikkyo or similar to the arm.

Let me know how it goes.

Regards,

Greg Jennings
08-06-2004, 06:14 AM
All the "defensive" and "reactive" techniques Aikido has are meant against commited attacks..
Maybe the way you train.

I see my job in aikido to be provoking an expected response from my opponent to which I have a tree of possibilities pre-programmed so that I am always forcing him to *react* to me.

The simplist and most direct...and the first that we teach...is sticking an attack in uke's face and working with what you get. If he doesn't block, well, GREAT, open the hand, continue to drive it through and throw him with it. If he does block, then, GREAT, do ikkyo, nikyo, etc. on the arm or use the combative tempo gained to slip into shikaku and do whatever. He does something else, GREAT, regroup and try again.

The strategy is no different than that I learned...was not taught...when I did karate many years ago.

I also like your idea of grappling and throwing the partner...perhaps with sutemiwaza. We do this almost every class. I find that nikyo, sankyo, ude garame (which we use as a throw oftentimes) and juji garame often develop. I think these are most useful to people in which tachiwaza is their primary mode while newaza is their secondary. That doesn't address how they'll learn the basics of newaza (eliminate space and make them carry your weight). I hoping that at some point someone that has very significant skill in newaza will join the dojo so that I can wrangle them into teaching.

Regards,

Robert Cheshire
08-06-2004, 11:49 PM
Gregg,

Pardon my lack of Alabama Geography. If you are close to Huntsville we have some good teachers up there that are great at ne waza. Our other school in Tusc. works on it a little bit, but, not as much as our Huntsville dojo.

Jorx
08-07-2004, 03:41 AM
This is offtopic but somehow I remember that when I joined this forum couple of years ago noone spoke so much of Newaza within Aikido context... most believed that keeping the fight standing up is very easy...

Greg... how do you do this provoking? I know in theory it is easy to lure your opponent into overcommited pattern that you expect. In practice I've seen noone under 10 years of practice and nidan who at least looked like he/she could do something like that.

My fighting experiences say to me that you can only count on what you do. Never on what you think your opponent will.

I'm really not trying to provoke but I'm really curious...

Greg Jennings
08-07-2004, 08:07 AM
Gregg,

Pardon my lack of Alabama Geography. If you are close to Huntsville we have some good teachers up there that are great at ne waza. Our other school in Tusc. works on it a little bit, but, not as much as our Huntsville dojo.
Huntsville, unfortunately, is 200 miles North of Montgomery.

I work for Lockheed and there is a good chance that I'll be stationed in HSV sometime in the future. If so, I'll look up the YAB guys.

Best,

Greg Jennings
08-07-2004, 08:29 AM
This is offtopic but somehow I remember that when I joined this forum couple of years ago noone spoke so much of Newaza within Aikido context... most believed that keeping the fight standing up is very easy...

I think it's preferable for someone that practices aikido (or karate) but that it's wishful thinking to think that it's easy or will never happen. So, I train for it.


Greg... how do you do this provoking?

I gave one example previously. It's just like a boxing combination.

Another standard way is to offer them something they see as an opening but which is really a trap. Like dropping the front hand, shoulder to give them an opening for a hook. Or seeming to offer a clinch, but being set up to go for leg as soon as the start to buy it.


I know in theory it is easy to lure your opponent into overcommited pattern that you expect. In practice I've seen noone under 10 years of practice and nidan who at least looked like he/she could do something like that.

All my instructors have emphasized not taking my opponents for granted. So, I don't count on anything being easy. I count on studying more, training harder and therefore being better prepared.

Maybe the folks that are taking 10 years to look decent are doing so not because the concepts are missing but but due to an less-than-optimal pedagogical method.


My fighting experiences say to me that you can only count on what you do. Never on what you think your opponent will.

I boxed, wrestled and did karate in my younger days. All three, but especially the boxing, emphasized combinations. In a combination, you really expect your opponent to block (or attempt to block) the first or even the first and second shot. In fact, I'll commit and say that I never expected the first shot to land.

The BJJ guys that I've talked strategy with tell me that they do the same thing. That they feint, bait and trap just the way every other martial art does.

A quote from an article I was reading the other day comes to mind: "Left hook, left hook, left hook, shoot". Sure sounds like he's setting the guy up to me. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

So, it really comes down to the same thing...how much work does the artist put into their art.

FWIW,

Lyle Laizure
08-07-2004, 08:36 AM
I agree that taking his balance is the key to your scenario. I think it is easier to take his balance while he is in a transition state, while he is performing the tsuki. If you have to wait until he is on both feet you will have to use atemi. Be creative. Atemi doesn't have to be a strike, just something to distract him long enough that you are in the position you need to be.