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p00kiethebear
07-07-2004, 02:33 PM
Recently the topic of fake credentials came up in the thread "These Styles"

This isn't the first time that i've seen this topic come up. I guess there are organizations out there that are willing to hand out titles like "8th dan" and "shihan" like they're candy.

What exactly do these organizations gain other than a few hundred bucks and their name in some guys resume?

More importantly, who are these organizations? Is there a big mega-list out there of what is crap and what isn't? I know i'd like to have one.

jimbaker
07-07-2004, 02:59 PM
Given that there are over seventy organizations giving out black belt ranks in Aikido in the US, it's possible that some of them might be giving out self-inflicted high ranks. Okay, maby more then "some".

You can check out the "Bad Budo" or "Baffling Budo" forums over on E-Budo.

Jim Baker

aikidoc
07-07-2004, 03:11 PM
E-Budo is a good start. Type in soke sometime and see what you come up with. Anything beyond the major organizations (which I believe there is an article somewhere on this site or Aikido Journal outlining them), needs to be scrutinized with care-check the credentials, See who issued them and what their credentials are. Check websites for discussions. A beginning student does not have the background to watch the training and see if there is any quality there.

crbateman
07-07-2004, 03:13 PM
Know what? It's all relative. People who want to be judged by their "credentials" (real or otherwise) still will have to demonstrate real ability at some time or other, and will be labeled accordingly. A wall full of dubious certificates can't conceal a lack of ability for very long.

I'm reminded of a demonstration I once saw where a self-styled "grandmaster" got on the mat, and could barely move around at all. The guy sitting next to me commented thusly: "No wonder he can't move... He's being weighed down by all the stripes on his belt!" Couldn't have said it better myself. You are what you are, and eventually that's all it comes down to.

siwilson
07-07-2004, 06:07 PM
One thing to remember is that x-Dan in organisation-a bears no relation to y-Dan in organisation-b!

Who cares what grade they have. What is important is that we have quality Aikido teachers, which give us quality Aikido, which we can pass on to those who want to learn and practice it.

p00kiethebear
07-07-2004, 06:39 PM
Who cares what grade they have.

Not about the grade they have. About the grade they Lie about.
Do you want to be taught by someone who lies about themselves?

I want to know the truth about my instructors. Not some fancy qualifications that they WISHED they had.

otto
07-07-2004, 08:31 PM
I agree with Nathan , is all about INTEGRITY , and i'm contrary to being overcautios about outing those bogus grandmasters....people out there need to have the "facts" about x or y organization/dojo/teacher before comitting themselves to training.

Just my opinion.

aikidoc
07-07-2004, 08:36 PM
Ditto. Integrity is important. Unfortunately some are legends in their own mind. I'm sure there are cases where rank has not been awarded for various reasons when deserved. Those are simply life's injustices that are difficult to explain. The ones that seem to think they should be a certain rank without earning it need to check their egos and award them the rank but don't insult the art. The other one that is disturbing is organizations or sokeships awarding ranks in arts they have no training in or give someone a video to study then test them. How can you award aikido rank if you don't have aikido rank? Escapes me.

Chris Li
07-07-2004, 11:47 PM
The other one that is disturbing is organizations or sokeships awarding ranks in arts they have no training in or give someone a video to study then test them. How can you award aikido rank if you don't have aikido rank? Escapes me.

Hmm, IIRC both Shioda and Mochizuki took Aikido ranks from the Kokusai Budoin (IMAF), which is not an Aikido organization...

Best,

Chris

csinca
07-08-2004, 02:40 PM
I agree that we face a tremendous problem with claims of rank and lineage. But I also see that at least part of this is brought about because students are impressed by and and expect it.

How many of us make an assumption of a person's skill level because of who the train under (either real or claimed)?

Nathan, you said "I want to know the truth about my instructors. Not some fancy qualifications that they WISHED they had." What is it you want to know about them that you won't find out on the mat?

I'm going to be travelling on business and I'll be visiting at least one Aikido dojo while I'm gone. I have no idea what the lineage or rank of the instructor is and it wouldn't matter one way or the other. After the first night I'll know if I will ever go back again.

Maybe if we cared less about lineage and rank, people wouldn't try to take advantage of us.

Chris

aikidoc
07-08-2004, 05:03 PM
Christopher: "Hmm, IIRC both Shioda and Mochizuki took Aikido ranks from the Kokusai Budoin (IMAF), which is not an Aikido organization..." good point but they at least were qualified by training and experience to achieve such levels. I just have a problem with a Karate Soke giving an aikido rank. Just doesn't fit.

Chris S: You mean you visit a dojo without checking credentials while traveling? I for one get on the Aiki-Web and check. You are right about the first night being the clincher though. I don't care what their affiliation, if it is not a good school I would not go back a second time.

Experienced aikidoka will see through the scammers. However, new students simply don't have the skills to filter out the b.s. Often times (I have experienced this), they will set up in an area devoid of aikido and pass themselves off as having high rank-no one there has enough knowledge to question them-unless of course someone with credentials comes into town:).

John Boswell
07-09-2004, 08:55 AM
Experienced aikidoka will see through the scammers. However, new students simply don't have the skills to filter out the b.s. Often times (I have experienced this), they will set up in an area devoid of aikido and pass themselves off as having high rank-no one there has enough knowledge to question them-unless of course someone with credentials comes into town.

Exactlly.

One poster said (in essence) 'what does their rank matter so long as they can demonstrate skill?' Well, when you have total newbies coming into a "dojo", what the hell do they know about skill? They don't.

With the right attitude, work-out location, black belt, hakama and photo shop... I could have my own 'dojo' and sucker in a good number of students into thinking I'm some rockin' black belt... when in fact I'm 4th kyu with a long way to go. I know enough to fake it... IF I wanted to dupe people, which I don't.

Point is, anyone can... many do... and those NOT in the know get suckered everyday. You all know it happens everyday, or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. Creditials are there for a reason and should be held with regard when obtained through hard work, bone fide organizations and proper time / effort, not blown off and disregarded because 'rank isn't that important.'

Rank has a purpose.
Certification has a purpose.
Neither should be revered nor disregarded... it's a fine line that should be respected by all martial artists.

csinca
07-09-2004, 02:01 PM
John R, for the most part, yes I visit a dojo without checking into credentials. If I were going to Midland TX I'd use the dojo finder on this site (which I did for my trip next week). I'd send you an email and ask if I could stop by and workout, if you said yes I'd be over. From a distance there is no way I could judge what you have to offer based on claimed rank and affiliations. The worst that can happen is I waste a night working out with folks and I get absolutely nothing from it, and that has happened. On the other hand, maybe I learn something great and I make a new friend, this has also happened to me.

Maybe this is because I cross train with other arts or maybe this is because I'm from an unaffiliated dojo. I have no rank with any recognized aikido affiliation. When I'm visiting I'll bring my black belt and hakama but I'll also have a white belt and pants. I don't care which the sensei wants me to wear because they'll know soon enough if I have any ability.

John B, I have some experience and can judge for myself fairly quickly if someone has something to offer me (note: I'm not saying whether they are good or not, just whether they have what I'm looking for). It's true that the newbie to Aikido probably can't do that, but then again they also can't get much from a claimed rank and affiliation. The unfortunate reality is that the new student in any art runs the risk of walking into the type of outfit you hypothetically described. The best thing a new student can do is be honest with themselves about why they want to train and visit as many places as they can before leaping in.

Chris

PS: if anyone gets to the San Diego area, please feel free to visit even though we are unaffiliated.

Lyle Laizure
07-12-2004, 06:05 AM
There is a school, not aikido, where I live that thrives with questionable credentials, though now they appear more legitamate. I had always wanted to study this particular art and thought; "Wow, what an opportunity." I was not new to the martial arts but 99% of the students this person attracted were at that time. The technique taught, though modified, wasn't ineffective but the person's attitude was to say the least very poor. I studied for about 6 months and decided to leave. I feel very badly for the students though that do not know better that his "way" of thinking is flawed.

MaryKaye
07-12-2004, 09:27 AM
Everyone says "beginners have no way to tell" but is this really true? I mean, you can't tell the day you walk into a dojo, but within a few months it seems to me that a reasonably alert student should begin to get a clue.

As a beginner I was taught by a mix of people from first kyu to fourth dan, and it didn't take all that long to recognize that the fourth dan *really* knew her stuff. She could look at my fumbling beginner attempts to do something and reliably give a single bit of advice that would lead to immediate and visible improvement. (She could also do wicked impersonations of what I was doing, almost like showing it to me on video--oh gosh, was I really waving my feet in the air like that?) The first kyus did a lot more "That's not right, um, maybe try it like this? Does that help?" They're good teachers, don't get me wrong, but the rank difference does show.

The fourth dan could also throw me in such a way that the fall didn't hurt--as if she picked out exactly what part of my body I should land on, and put me there. (To this day I don't know how she does it.)

I think that if beginners don't allow themselves to be intimidated, they can be reasonable judges of whether they are being taught well. I'm more worried about schools where the instructors put forward the attitude "You know nothing, you can't judge me, don't you dare try."

I was probably the worst forward roller my dojo has ever seen--it took me five months to learn how--and I was blessed with patient and humble teachers who kept working out new teaching tricks to try on me. Most of the problem dojo I've read about sound like they would have told me I was hopeless and gotten rid of me, to save face. I figure this experience really showed me the quality of my teachers. No, they couldn't magically teach me to roll (though it *was* like magic when I finally got it) but they worked hard at it, didn't give up, didn't let *me* give up, and were unfailingly encouraging.

So maybe the most important thing to share with beginners is not how to tell legitimate rank from inflated rank, but how to tell good teaching from bad teaching.

Mary Kaye

Peter Seth
07-14-2004, 06:02 AM
If you watch senior black belts performing, in my experience (many years) if you see prominent technical technique - think? If you see little technique, just flow and the impression of ease, and uke is disposed of nicely without pain or a lot of fussy movement then this may indicate an understanding of true AiKi. Remember harmony and energy are the key words.

batemanb
07-14-2004, 08:19 AM
Recently the topic of fake credentials came up in the thread "These Styles"

This isn't the first time that i've seen this topic come up. I guess there are organizations out there that are willing to hand out titles like "8th dan" and "shihan" like they're candy.

What exactly do these organizations gain other than a few hundred bucks and their name in some guys resume?



If the info I googled yesterday is true

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5912

then they can get quite a bit.,

rgds

Bryan

philipsmith
07-16-2004, 07:08 AM
Fake credentials are a real problem in not only Aikido but in all walks of life. Would you consult a doctor who had made up his own form of medicine or who had only comleted one year of med. school?
I use this analogy as I have ex students now claiming to be (extremely) high Yudansha and as a Chartered Physiotherapist I have also come across "Physiotherapists" who frankly have little or no knowledge of treating injuries and are dangerous!
Proper accreditation is important because it protects the consumer (in this case the Aikido student) who can expect a reasonable core knowledge from their instructor.
The issue is who will accredit who?
As a beginner I would be very dubious if my prospective instructor could not show affiliation to a recognised body such as the Aikikai, Yoshinkan etc.

darin
07-16-2004, 08:49 AM
I know a few martial arts schools out there that have become good businesses but were started by instructors with questionable credentials. I also know a few instructors who have credentials but are poor at teaching and running a school. All you need is a well organized teaching system, good presentation skills and an understanding of the basics. The rest is up to you.

aikidoc
07-16-2004, 09:56 AM
That is always depressing when your students become "much higher" ranked than you via circuitous and questionable means. It makes one feel you did not get through to them.

alpo
07-16-2004, 01:44 PM
I believe the following link shows a good example of "Fake Credentials", which eventually involved the British Governments "Sport England" (The Head of all Governning Bodies in the UK) and the embarrassingly pathetic attempt of one student trying to outrank his teachers.

www.geocities.com/britishaikido

Peter Seth
07-19-2004, 06:29 AM
Hi Alexander
I am a member of the BAB (affiliated via my organisation) and may I say this is the first I have heard of this 'dispute'. Seems a shame really but 'politics and the like' tend to arise when people get together in such organisations. Let me assure you that in my experience British Aikidoka in general, as I am sure most others around the world see Aikido as a 'Way', a path to follow through life, to live well and find some harmony and balance in the chaos of life. Maybe this ethic gets a little lost as you rise through the ranks and maybe ego starts to make itself felt?
I am sure there is much more in the 'dispute than meets the eye, but -
The spirit of aikido goes beyond the physical, and to be true, must be practiced with respect and integrity throughout all aspects of life. I know that sincere people are sometimes caught up in what I would term petty squabbles, but come on everyone, lets show an example here. We can be seen to 'represent' British Aikido to the world (Though there are many other organisations who do not have such a high profile). Get a grip! (and that does not mean ai hanmi).

alpo
07-20-2004, 11:00 AM
Hello Peter,
After doing some reading and some net research on the link I submitted on my first post, I wouldn't call this a petty squable. Someone trumping up their credentials to supersede their instructors and trying to rewrite the Aikido History in the UK, now that's a petty thing, especially when there's evidence of your falsehood.

I do agree with you that an example needs to be shown here and the person who's fluffed up their credentials needs to get a grip, as well as the organisation that supported that person in the first place.

David Humm
07-20-2004, 01:57 PM
Hey guys.

I'm someone directly involved in the investigation into the individual linked a couple of posts above. Some four years of investigation to be exact, I'd like to offer my opinion if I may.

It would be inappropriate at this time to discuss here, the out come of a mediated meeting that was brought to conclude that issue and other matters pertaining to the British Aikido Board. Suffice to say an official statement will be presented on the BAB website specifically detailing this matter very soon.

www.bab.org.net

In direct response to Mr. Seth, Sir, this matter wasn't isn't petty by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it politically orientated. I say with due respect, most if not all of the "this is a petty dispute" comments in the past have been made by those who do not care to absorbe the entire factual nature of the things said in writing through a biography issued about one such individual. I can say this with absolute conviction because I have the documented evidence in a 160 page report that presents proof and testimony to the contrary.

However, fake credentials.. During my time involved in the investigations, I've been exposed to all manor of opinion from a very large cross section of the international Aikido community, some in support and some quite threatening but, that aside, there is a real need to ensure (especially in such a small isle like Great Britain) control is exercised to prevent the situation described in this thread.

The foundation of our martial art (lets not talk of technicality) is basic human trust, and a respect that is gained from honest and transparent behavior in those whom we look to for our training.

The problem with Aikido in general (talking grades) is that a small (here in the UK) group of individuals (about 40ish) decided for their own reasons to create their own organisations and have nothing to do with the respective Hombu dojo's. There are however a small number of organisations who do affiliate to their respective Hombu and none of these organisations have issues with credibility or grades (obviously)

The issues here in the UK are those of regulation. Who issues the senior Yudansha to the principal instructors who have no accountability to anyone else? The reality is that their grades are either granted internally by the "students" or gained from other organisations of 'independent' sources that can and do consist of other martial arts.

Is that right or wrong ? Jeez that's a difficult debate however, I personally share exactly the same opinion as Philip Smith, not surprising really considering I spent nearly ten years in the United Kingdom Aikikai - an Aikikai affiliated organisation.

Does an organisation really have to have affiliation to a respective Hombu to be credible ? No however, if the principal instructor wishes to advance there needs to be some structured source where legitimate Aikido grades can be offered. Even so, there will always be the people who want the easy option and either fabricate their history/grades/experience or, obtain Yudansha grades from sources that are far less credible than we might expect.

There is also a greatly misused term to describe Aikido.. "Traditional" which is often associated with groups and organisations who realistically don't teach aikido that resembles anything "traditional" I base this observation on first hand experience and not on speculation. I'm not at all surprised that each of the individuals I have experienced this with are 7th / 8th dan / Shihan Aikido and or 7th / 8th dan BUDO (??) as well.

Within the UK we have a law known as Pecuniary Advantage; the law in this regard is broad covering things such as financial gain from fraudulent qualification. Although I doubt a Police Force within the UK would bring a charge against an Aikido instructor making money under the pretences of fake grades or experience, the principle is there.

Anyone within the UK who makes a claim (mainly in writing) of a qualification/experience/skill and results in obtaining financial reward based upon this information can, in theory be prosecuted.

Regards.

p00kiethebear
07-20-2004, 02:37 PM
The foundation of our martial art (lets not talk of technicality) is basic human trust, and a respect that is gained from honest and transparent behavior in those whom we look to for our training.

That's what i was trying to get at when i started this thread. It's not about whether or not they're a good teacher. It's about how truthful they are to the students and the rest of the community.

kironin
07-20-2004, 04:21 PM
The issues here in the UK are those of regulation. Who issues the senior Yudansha to the principal instructors who have no accountability to anyone else? The reality is that their grades are either granted internally by the "students" or gained from other organisations of 'independent' sources that can and do consist of other martial arts.
.


Of course in the US there is no regulation and this happens in the Martial Arts all the time. It's very common in karate to have their own organizations to promote them to something like 9th dan. Some "martial artists" don't even bother with forming or building an organization or buying it from a mail order organization, they just go print it up.

The daughter of a friend of mine who works at a print shop came home recently and asked my friend if he knew this person the print shop had just made nice official looking certificates for yondan in Iaido and yondan in Kendo. It turned out to be a beginner he had as a student for a little over a year until about a year ago when he had just stoppped attending class after my friend refused his repeated requests to teach him Okuden kata.
The student was already studying tapes. The problem in our information rich age is that it is all too easy for frauds to mimic advance stuff because videos and online information is easily obtainable (http://www.geocities.com/kampaibudokai/Okutachi.htm) and prospective students often have no idea what to look for. Aikido has a large amount of visual and written material available. It's a great resource for good or bad.

If there is something to be gained, there will always be those who prey on basic human trust. I think vigilance about the quality of documentation is warranted even if some are offended. The honest should always keep things upfront and open to help make a distinction for those less aware.

Peter Seth
07-22-2004, 07:00 AM
David
Please don't take my 'general' comment using the words 'politics' and 'petty' to heart. I did also say that there was probably a lot more to the dispute than met the eye. I can also see all the points you raise as being valid (depending on your standpoint) - but, having been in the Martial arts 'game' (I know its not a game - but why not? - it should be enjoyable), for over 40 years I have encountered similar events on regular occasions.
The key words are as you said honesty, also integrity, respect and trust, but unfortunately that 'thing' we all in the arts should be trying to control, the 'EGO', tends to get loose and make itself felt - not usually in a positive , constructive manner.
We could have an interesting conversation on 'Traditional' , independant organisations etc.
Firstly may I say that Parent organisations are very useful and on the whole do a great job - as does the BAB. But, did not O'sensei say 'Take what I leave to you (Aikido - physical and spiritual) and make it your own'. I believe he understood that his/our art is 'organic' in nature and must develop and grow (keeping to general principles which govern all things). So maybe a bit of independance is a good thing? If something is 'controlled' it tends to stop growing.

No offence - I tend to approach things a bit like a devils advocate, this usually 'raises the grouse' as it were and the discussion becomes a little more open.
Cheers
Peter

philipsmith
07-22-2004, 07:57 AM
I've already posted some comments earlier in this thread.
Without going over old ground I can see a need for proper "vetting" of credentials by a governing body but I think we also have to cautious who is vetting whom. In the UK (and I assume elsewhere) there are a lot of independent dojos whose instructors carry what I would call inflated grades.
Essentially I dont have a problem with that if they clearly state I am x grade in y association but I DO have a problem when they represent themselves as being x Dan Aikido ( or Iai-do etc. etc.) without making it clear where that grade came from.
I also think that the propspective student should check up on the instructor's history (perhaps through a governing body) and credibility before getting on a mat with him or her, but at the end of the day peole make their own choices. I just ask that those choices be informed.
There will always be charlatans in all walks of life and gullible people who are taken in by them.

P.S. In the current BAB dispute I don't think either side is completely right; as usual there are shades of grey.

aikidoc
07-22-2004, 09:15 AM
Philip. Unfortunately, in the states we have no restrictions. Anyone with a computer and the inkling to do so can set up their own organization, establish bylaws making them some lofty dan grade and print up a fancy looking rank certificate. Unless a wise consumer or experienced one bothers to check the credential or someone else points out the inconsistencies or fraudulent behavior such legends in their own mind can easily dupe the public. It's unfortunate but happens a lot here. We do not have one organization monitoring or controlling the behavior of martial artists teaching in this country. Large organizations do have their criteria unfortunately, there is nothing to stop anyone from doing what they want to do.

David Humm
07-22-2004, 12:30 PM
In the current BAB dispute I don't think either side is completely right; as usual there are shades of grey.

Hi Philip.

The "current" dispute has been resolved as of the 6th July with an apology forthcoming form the BAB. This information will be available on the Governing Body's website.

Regards

alpo
07-23-2004, 02:43 PM
Hi Dave,
An apology from the BAB? Interesting. Life does have its shades of Grey, but as in this case, Life can also be blatantly Black and White.

David Humm
07-23-2004, 03:23 PM
Hi Dave,
An apology from the BAB? Interesting. Life does have its shades of Grey, but as in this case, Life can also be blatantly Black and White.

Indeed. :)

Time to put my gi on and have some training.

siwilson
07-23-2004, 04:46 PM
Time to put my gi on and have some training.

Which is, of course, what really matters!

:)

David Humm
07-23-2004, 05:38 PM
Digressing slightly but remaining on the theme..

Dan grades in BUDO ??? Has this subject been discussed here before ?

Within the UK I'm seeing more and more 'apparently' senior Yudansha claiming grades in Budo, I Googled "dan Budo" and was quite surprised at the results.

Is this just another ruse to inflate ego with 'other' dan grades or, am I completely mistaken ?

Thanks

alpo
07-26-2004, 07:32 AM
.. I know that sincere people are sometimes caught up in what I would term petty squabbles....

Petty squabbles do exist, however this is far from petty. I've been reading about British Aikido at www.geocities.com/britishaikido and I find it hard to believe Mr. Seth, that anyone who calls themselves a martial artist could refer to anything that involves the integrity of a martial arts teacher as "petty". I find this totally beyond my belief, I've re-visited the British Aikido site, and I suggest you do the same , and please read what Sensei Henry Ellis has to say about the use of the word "petty" in his reply to the strange letter from the UK organization called the Ken-Shin-Kai.

Jason Tonks
07-30-2004, 02:47 AM
Absolutely Alpo. This is no petty argument.Truth and sincerity lie at the heart of the martial arts. To try and build ones own kudos by falsely aligning yourself to deceased masters is not a charge the vast majority of martial artists would want laid at their door.

All the best Jason T

alpo
08-04-2004, 01:45 PM
Hello Jason,
Truth and Sincerity are excellent points that seem to have fallen unfortunately on the wayside. The importance of accurate credentials is explained in an excellent article on the importance of lineage in the Japanese Martial Arts by Sensei Ellis Amdur. This article can be read here: http://www.geocities.com/britishaikido/messages.htm

aikidoc
08-04-2004, 03:22 PM
Alexander thanks for the link. Great comments by Ellis. I would make some alterations though (my suggestions are in quotes): '.... to falsify a "rank" makes one's entire practice corrupt, because one is not merely measured by one's skill, but by one's integrity. To lie about one's "rank"" is to spit on the gift that was given to "others who earned rank by training" many years before. It expresses an inadequacy of character that, in my opinion, will be reflected in other actions both within and without the dojo.' To me, this is the crux of lofty grades and sokeships not earned but awarded by self serving organizations often times set up by the same person.

philipsmith
08-05-2004, 04:28 AM
I have responded to this thread before.

Without going into detail or impuning anyones charachter can I just say that having been involved in Aikido since 1968 (as a student of Chiba Shihan) I know both parties and quite frankly there are huge shades of grey on both sides.
At times the level of debate has been that of throwing toys out of the pram and after nearly 5 years lets hope the BAB statement puts an end to it.

To paraphrase; why do you see the mote in anothers eye and not the plank in your own. (Sorry to all biblical scholars)

ruthmc
08-05-2004, 07:52 AM
At times the level of debate has been that of throwing toys out of the pram and after nearly 5 years lets hope the BAB statement puts an end to it.

We all hope for this. Human nature being what it is, I worry that certain parties will try to prolong the unpleasantness through continual stirring up on the internet, which has led to innocent people being dragged in. It's all so unneccesary.

I think that everybody has the right to hold their own opinions, but no right to use them to stir up trouble using inflammatory posts.

I really don't care who agrees and disagrees whith whom. I am an adult who can make up her own mind about this case, having trained under both parties, and I trust my own judgement about the character of each sensei concerned.

Ruth

siwilson
08-05-2004, 01:48 PM
Well said, Ruth.

Robert Cheshire
08-05-2004, 10:23 PM
Hmm, IIRC both Shioda and Mochizuki took Aikido ranks from the Kokusai Budoin (IMAF), which is not an Aikido organization...



Minoru Mochizuki was already a 9th dan prior to IMAF offering the 10th dan and only accepted it AFTER asking Ueshiba family who said that they felt O-Sensei would want Minoru to have the 10th dan.

That being said - I agree with the statements that people should not give rank in something they don't have rank in themself. It is also way to easy to print up just about any type of credentials you want. That's one of the strong parts about belonging to a national and/or international organization. My credentials, for instance, can be confirmed by our national and international organizations - both of which know me by name.

alpo
08-06-2004, 01:59 PM
To paraphrase; why do you see the mote in anothers eye and not the plank in your own. (Sorry to all biblical scholars)

Sounds like Matthew 7 verse 3 to 4, but by all means don't stop there, finish the rest of the verse which says first remove the plank from your eye so you can remove the mote in your brothers. This translates as I can't tell my "brother" to quit shooting heroin if I'm addicted myself. I need to be clean and sober before helping him with his addiction or problem. Now I'm using the example of heroin, but it could be anything else and in this case it's a brother who's lying about his history, creating fake credentials. The person correcting him has authentic credentials and is staying true to the history of British Aikido and honoring his Japanese Teachers, in short he has no mote, no plank, and a clear position to correct "the brother" who's intentionally misleading.

I think a more appropriate biblical verse should be "thou shalt not lie or create false credentials."