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Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-02-2004, 05:07 PM
I've heard this mentioned, but don't believe I've ever been formally taught it. I realize it's risky to try to learn techniques from computer screens, but perhaps someone could give me a link or technical description of what this throw is like?

Thanks!

Janet Rosen
07-02-2004, 05:27 PM
Howdy, almost neighbor!
I don't have a link handy, but it is actually one of the easier things to describe.
From a basic grab: say, the attacking partner's right hand grabs the other's left wrist. The entry is to the attacking side: left foot slides in and to the left, with grabbed arm maintaining extension; free right hand stays at center ready to come into play so that when the right foot steps in to the attacker's left side, the right hand is at the attacker's elbow.
Basically, the feet do like ice skating to the attacking side, and the balance is taken laterally and back. Many variations possible.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
07-02-2004, 07:16 PM
Ahhh. Thank you!

L. Camejo
07-02-2004, 08:15 PM
Hey folks,

Sumi otoshi is one of those techs that I love to experiment on. :)

Paul, another option (animated) can be found here - http://www.ttac.0catch.com/uki.htm .

On a related note, I've heard that there are technical debates as to which may be more effective - right foot or left foot being forward when executing the throw. Any views anyone?

Gambatte.

LC:ai::ki:

nothingness
07-02-2004, 08:16 PM
Here is the link to a Judo's version. In reality, I think this technique is one of the hardest ones to be executed from grappling position. This technique is best executed to counter a strike since some of the aspect of the techniques is an element of surprise. Best of lucks!

http://judoclub.ca/mpegs/sumi.wmv

Don_Modesto
07-03-2004, 02:30 PM
Many variations possible.

Curious about the terminology. The version described here is the usual one, I think. But the folks I train with consider SUMI OTOSHI to enter from UKE's back; others might call it a KOKYU NAGE/HIJI NAGE, although it works at driving into the shoulder as well as the elbow.

How many others regard this as SUMI OTOSHI?

Thanks.

Lan Powers
07-03-2004, 08:35 PM
We call the elbow driven version Sumi otoshi. I can see the drive towards the back corner in the first clip as one also tho. I like the second clip (the judo one) but would not have clicked to it being a corner drop without it being named that by Laurent.
Sweet throw from a close-up grip. My thought of sumi otoshi is with extension into the dead spot behind uke. Like they said many variants.
Lan

MikeE
07-03-2004, 09:34 PM
Anytime the elbow is used we call it hijiotoshi. If we are just leading the attack and it ends in use of shomitzu (shikaku) then we call it sumiotoshi.

Just our style.

Don_Modesto
07-03-2004, 10:38 PM
Anytime the elbow is used we call it hijiotoshi. If we are just leading the attack and it ends in use of shomitzu (shikaku) then we call it sumiotoshi.

Just our style.

"shomitzu " means the same as SHIKAKU? Haven't come across this term before.

Thanks.

nothingness
07-04-2004, 04:06 AM
I just think that learning Judo movements help us understand body mechanic better, which helps us understands the mechanic of Aikido, too. Once we understand the general principle of a specific throw, the grips, etc. are just details and are a subject of variations.

Remember that 10 Aikidokas will have 10 Aikidos.

otto
07-04-2004, 02:58 PM
Hummmm... about the first technique in Larry's link , I've always been told this is "Tempi , Tenmi Nage" , anybody else? is this term correct?..

About the sumi otoshi , we refer to this as Kokyu Nage too , but plenty of waza is ofter called that , right?

akiy
07-04-2004, 03:20 PM
Hummmm... about the first technique in Larry's link , I've always been told this is "Tempi , Tenmi Nage" , anybody else? is this term correct?..
Probably "tenbin nage" with "tenbin" referring to a balance scale:

http://www.cascadelegalsupport.com/images/200_justice-scales.gif

-- Jun

MikeE
07-04-2004, 03:28 PM
Don,
Shomitzu is referred to as the "first big secret" in budo. If you move someone in the direction that both their heels are pointed, they will fall. So, it's probably a bit broader than shikaku.

otto
07-04-2004, 04:07 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Jun , i had my doubts about the correct spelling on that one , have you heard the term before when referring to that technique?.

Mike , thats a pretty interesting term/concept...any other "budo secret" you may want to share :) ?

L. Camejo
07-04-2004, 05:11 PM
Don,
Shomitzu is referred to as the "first big secret" in budo. If you move someone in the direction that both their heels are pointed, they will fall. So, it's probably a bit broader than shikaku.

Hi folks,

From my learning in Shodokan we call this the "weak line concept", not sure what the Japanese is for it. It's part of understanding kuzushi. Basically we take any stance, draw a line to connect the heels and a perpendicular of that line represents the weakest line of any stance or attack. It is this line that we exploit to break balance or throw.

Sumi otoshi is based almost entirely on this concept as the idea is to drop Uke's weight onto the back corner (one part of the "weak line", the other being the opposite front corner).

The other concepts being applied in sumi otoshi are I Do Ryoku (power of body movement), else it becomes very muscle oriented and difficult to do; and To Itsu Ryoku (focus of power) to place Uke's weight exactly where Tori needs to disrupt balance and throw, between his heels.

On another note, the 3rd technique on the link I gave (Hiki Otoshi) follows a similar principle to Sumi Otoshi, but breaks balance to the opposite side of the weak line, the front inner corner, and Tori moves backward instead of forwards.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

otto
07-04-2004, 06:34 PM
Mike and Larry..

Something like this?

L. Camejo
07-04-2004, 08:34 PM
Mike and Larry..

Something like this?

Almost Otto,

A bit more like this though, the arrow should be perpendicularly dissecting the strong line of the attacker's stance. Force is also applied effectively in both directions along the weak line as a push/pull, irimi or tenkan to cause kuzushi and then technique.

LC:ai::ki:

batemanb
07-05-2004, 02:21 AM
Thanks for clearing that up Jun , i had my doubts about the correct spelling on that one , have you heard the term before when referring to that technique?.


When I first started Aikido, we called this Mae Otoshi. Later when we moved associations, the new one called it Tenbin Nage. After I moved to Japan, it went back to Mae Otoshi, I asked my sensei there about tenbin, he said that either term was OK.

rgds

Bryan

markwalsh
07-05-2004, 11:28 AM
Like the diagram.

I think this is the best technique (along with ikkyo on the other side) for showing his. Although as a practical technique it doesn't work as uke will naturally move their feet and turn to face nage. Of course you can make atemi or whatever to conter this and it satrts to look more like tenchi-nage. IMHO and all that.

Mark
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