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Duval Culpepper
06-27-2004, 05:13 PM
Hello again,

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on how to properly execute iriminagi. I'm a smaller fellow (5'9, 140lbs), but when it comes to iriminagi I don't quite "feel" it. I think I'm not close enough to my partner when I'm performing the throw. Should it be a very small step when you go to move in and behind them?

For example, let's say an ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend takes a wide swing at me, and I step in to perform iriminagi, should my hands immediately go to the back of neck/(elbow, wrist?), cut down, and tenkan...?

Hard to explain, but any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.

SeiserL
06-27-2004, 09:42 PM
IMHO, just think "enter" and "take balance".

Hard to tell from your description. I probably wouldn't use irimi-nage against a "wide swing" unless i could catch the arm before it came forward in front of the center line.

Best advice is to have a Sempai or Sensei watch you and make subtle corrections. Maybe, as you suggested, you just need to enter closer and deeper.

Jordan Steele
06-28-2004, 11:47 AM
I think I understand what you're saying and from your description I would say you are correct for the most part, but if someone takes a wide (roundhouse) type swing at you, iriminage might not be the best response (too fussy). If you did attempt that technique, just keep your opponent off balance at all times, which usually means taking up a lot of space that isn't available. My advice, best "aikido" technique to use against someone trying to knock you out...sumiotoshi...enter...atemi....one hand on ukes wrist...the other in the crook of his elbow....step through...and watch uke flop on the mat like a fish...lots of fun.

gregstec
06-30-2004, 01:21 PM
Since we are on the subject of iriminage, can someone explain the difference between iriminage and kokyunage? I have seen the same technique called both in different books.

giriasis
06-30-2004, 10:12 PM
I'm 5'5" and often train with men over 6' tall. It's really important to get directly behind your uke, as you tenkan or pivot drop your center and bend your knees as if doing a squat/ horsestance. If they are big boned/ muscular it really helps to grasp their collar and pull down into their blind spot. If they are more wirey/ flexible, make sure you keep their head pinned against your shoulder. When you get them bent over backwards step behind them through their center while at the same time raising your arm up under their chin with your thumb pointing to the ceiling as you step through arc your arm/ thumb down almost taking your arm behind their back.

Lan Powers
06-30-2004, 10:32 PM
You can also do the triangular step form. (sankakutai)
Much more direct and sets up like the sumiatoshi mentioned before. wide swing, enter into the swing to place knife edge into the elbow to allow you to turn uke's body, switch feet as you enter into the dead space behind uke, turning him and breaking his balance, other hand alongside head into the throw as described above.
Our local club has named these techniques the "RFN" style. (Right F%*&in' Now) :)
More of a street applicable aproach from a classical form. That make any sense?
Lan

wxyzabc
07-01-2004, 12:20 AM
Hya David...I`m about the same size as you and have found the Nishio style to be the most effective in this technique... what this entails is...
1. A small step in with a karate style block (blocking arm at almost right angles)
2. Hold the attacker around the back of the ear...not the side of his head or neck (easy to wriggle out of)
3. firmly pull the uke`s head into your right shoulder (from a right foot forward starting position) and tenkan (deep tenkan not necessary).
4. Uke will be totally off balance allowing you to raise arm (up under his chin if he`s a big guy) and finish him off.

Hope this helps

Don_Modesto
07-01-2004, 04:18 PM
One thing that really helped my IRIMI NAGE, was doing TENKAN at 90 degrees rather than 180. I also concentrate on keeping UKE's head on my shoulder.

The IRIMI NAGE I strive to do is one I see Mary Heini and Ikeda Hiroshi do. It involves leading UKE around such that he walks his legs out from under his head. Executed cleanly, UKE sometimes pops up into the air with very little effort on NAGE's part (I'm still getting the feel of this myself). In this variation, there is no IRIMI, thus it is probably technically better regarded as KOKYU NAGE. But when you actually step through as Anne Marie describes, that is properly IRIMI NAGE I would guess (although being an Saotome/ASU person, I'm probably not the best one to be naming techniques...)

Duval Culpepper
07-02-2004, 11:13 PM
Thanks for all the responses, they've all helped.

--Duval

kokyu
12-11-2005, 07:16 AM
2. Hold the attacker around the back of the ear...not the side of his head or neck (easy to wriggle out of)
3. firmly pull the uke`s head into your right shoulder (from a right foot forward starting position) and tenkan (deep tenkan not necessary).


I am re-looking at my irimi shomenuchi nage for the xxx time (This always reminds me why they call this the 30-year technique)... I have a couple of questions that I would be grateful for some enlightenment:
(1) Holding uke - I notice that some styles tend to grab the collar... I was wondering whether anyone has done a comparison between grabbing the collar and holding the attacker somewhere near the head (as above)... I'll be trying this myself, but it'll be a while before I can make conclusions...
(2) Pulling uke's head onto the shoulder - this is also favored by some styles, while others don't pull the head so close... again, I will be trying this myself in the weeks ahead... but I'm curious what everyone thinks about pulling the head...
(3) Cutting down on uke's hand... I always thought (probably mistakenly) that we should blend in with uke's downward cut and "add to it" by cutting down ourselves... but I just read somewhere that we should NOT add to the cut but just extend uke's arm forwards... otherwise there is a tendency to cut uke's arm to ourselves... causing him to swing inwards towards you... sounds logical, but I wonder what everyone thinks...

Many thanks in advance...

dan guthrie
12-11-2005, 11:08 AM
(This always reminds me why they call this the 30-year technique)...






I've been doing this for 2 and a half years. When does the "30-year"s start? :(

tedehara
12-11-2005, 11:26 AM
Irimi-nage is known as the twenty year throw because it took the founder that long to develop it into the form used today from the original Daito-ryu technique. People mistakenly think it is called that because it will take you twenty years to learn.

Irimi-nage is entering throw. Kokyu-nage is breath throw, although the general understanding is breath = timing. Therefore kokyu-nage could be called timing throw. Both descriptions apply to the same technique. The description is so general, it can also apply to several other techniques. I usually call it irimi-nage hachi-noji aka figure 8 throw.

Ketsan
12-11-2005, 03:30 PM
Does anyone do the irime nage varient from yokomen where you go under the attack? Kinda like tsugi ashi only you drop in really low and cut up shomen with both hands sending the punch over your head as you enter in behind them. I like that one from a big wild swing.

eyrie
12-11-2005, 04:59 PM
I've seen at least 8 or 9 variations of irimi nage. I'm sure there are more. Every technique has 3 stages to it - kuzushi, tsukuri and kake.

The basic principles involved in irimi nage are:

kuzushi
Enter
However you want to enter is fine - dead side or live side works the same, although my preference is on the dead side and off the line of attack. If the attack is yokomen, then a kokyu entry is my preference, rather than ducking under - in case you mis-time it and get your face smashed in. ;)

Where the head goes the body will follow
There is absolutely no need to "pull" the head, grab the collar, or hook the neck. A light touch to the back of the neck is sufficient to draw the person off balance into your circle. I really only use my finger tips to redirect and draw uke into my "center". The fact that their head ends up near my shoulder is not the point, but the fact that their center of balance is affected is.

Downward "force"
Again, "cutting" thru the elbow crease is totally unnecessary. Draw the energy from the forward foot into the hips and transmit it to your hand and direct the force downward thru the elbow. If you do this is conjunction with the neck "caress", you'll find you'll require very little in the way of force to effect kuzushi. The idea is to draw uke's weight on their lead foot.

tsukuri
Tsukuri is positional alignment in preparation for kake.
Tenkan variation
i.e. Open. This happens because uke's reaction is to drag their back foot forward in order to right themselves and stand up. Open enough to let uke's momentum pass thru without interference. As you open, release the downward force and follow uke upwards.

Senkai variation
After you tenkan, to stop uke from flying out tangetially, pivot 180 degrees on the spot, whilst controlling the neck and elbow (lightly), as uke makes a 180 degree positional change around your central axis, as they try to stand upright.

kake
Kake variations
This is where the variations are unlimited. I've seen variations where nage enters in for a clothesline against the throat, against the chest and shoulder (a la Seagal), a light touch to the lower back with the hand that was on the neck as you come over the front of uke's face with the other hand (from the elbow crease), bouncing the elbow crease against uke's jawline whilst turning their head (for a neck break - my favorite!), taking an extra step to come in behind uke so they walk right into your elbow crease, or the more ubiquitous curved arm over uke's face, which I'm not quite sure does what....especially on non-cooperative ukes.

I've seen occasions where my sensei simply "walks" into the attack and turns to face uke's rear as his trailing knife hand comes up over the front of uke's face for a kokyu "strike" - nasty if your ukemi is not up to scratch. ;)

xuzen
12-12-2005, 02:25 AM
Since we are on the subject of iriminage, can someone explain the difference between iriminage and kokyunage? I have seen the same technique called both in different books.

The different could be found probably in its intent. I would classify irimi-nage the harder intent version of kokyu-nage. Kokyu-nage has more aiki or blending relative to irimi-nage. The Shodokan people classify irimi-nage (aigamae-ate) as part of their atemi-waza syllabus.

The more cynical of us would say that kokyu-nage is actually any technique you found to work but have no formal name for it. In aikido, successful application of many of its core techniques depends on timing (some say this means kokyu), hence I personally will say that kokyu-nage means any technique that is successful but is not in your syllabus. Thoughts? Anyone?

Boon.

eyrie
12-12-2005, 05:17 AM
It's all "kokyu" nage ;)

I think Greg is referring to "Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere" where the technique most identify as irimi-nage is called kokyu-nage in the book (projection 1, page 224), and what most identify as kokyu nage is called irimi-nage (projection 2, page 243) - actually what Yoshinkan calls Sokumen Irimi nage. Considering that the source of the book is from Ki Society, it'd be interesting to hear what the Ki Society people have to say....

kokyu
12-12-2005, 08:55 AM
Irimi-nage is known as the twenty year throw because it took the founder that long to develop it into the form used today from the original Daito-ryu technique. People mistakenly think it is called that because it will take you twenty years to learn.

Irimi-nage is entering throw. Kokyu-nage is breath throw, although the general understanding is breath = timing.

I am re-looking at my irimi shomenuchi nage...

Thanks for the correction on the twenty years... and apologies for misnaming the technique - it should be shomenuchi iriminage.

Also , many thanks to eyrie for his detailed explanation. Would you say that the senkai variation is "safer"? If I read the tenkan variation correctly, there's more room for error as the space between tori and uke can allow uke to spin around and attack you

The various terms are confusing, but from what little I know:
(1) Irimi nage is a body entering throw... usually refers to the case when tori faces uke and steps into uke's dead corner when throwing him...
(2) Kokyu nage usually refers to projecting uke such that he rolls (or flips) away from you
(3) Kokyu ho (in Aikikai) usually refers to projecting uke on his back and can be either tachiwaza (which then becomes sokumen iriminage in Yoshinkan) or suwariwaza (which is kokyu dosa).

I have seen at least one high-ranking Sensei correcting a student during grading that he wanted to see "kokyu ho" and NOT "kokyu nage"...

theflyingheadbuttsuplex
12-12-2005, 09:07 AM
Just a nice little tidbit thats probably already been mentioned, when you are behind uke and holding his neck, you should be looking at the hand that is going to throw (the one sticking out :p)

eyrie
12-12-2005, 04:44 PM
...
Also , many thanks to eyrie for his detailed explanation. Would you say that the senkai variation is "safer"? If I read the tenkan variation correctly, there's more room for error as the space between tori and uke can allow uke to spin around and attack you


Whatever the situation calls for, just as there is no right or wrong way to do it. It depends on how much control you have over uke's center thru the entire movement. I do both tenkan and senkai within the same movement. It depends on how much uke has control of their center as well. Sometimes after tenkan, uke with no sense of balance usually falls to the ground, in which case as they get up, rather than do another tenkan, a senkai gets them following the movement arc into the moment of kake.

Forgot to mention that jujitsu calls it (irimi-nage) hachi-mawashi (figure 8 return)...

Sonja2012
12-13-2005, 12:56 AM
People mistakenly think it is called that because it will take you twenty years to learn.

Twenty years to learn iriminage? I wish.... :sorry: :)

Rupert Atkinson
12-13-2005, 01:52 AM
Hello again,

For example, let's say an ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend takes a wide swing at me, and I step in to perform iriminagi, should my hands immediately go to the back of neck/(elbow, wrist?), cut down, and tenkan...?

Hard to explain, but any tips would be appreciated. Thanks.

I think you should forget about that ex-girlfriend. Ot at least, stay away from that new boyfriend. Anyway, the ex- part sounds like a move in the right direction. :cool:

kokyu
12-13-2005, 08:16 AM
Whatever the situation calls for, just as there is no right or wrong way to do it. It depends on how much control you have over uke's center thru the entire movement. I do both tenkan and senkai within the same movement. It depends on how much uke has control of their center as well. .

eyrie... thanks for your answer. I'm actually thinking about the case when uke has very good balance and gets up very quickly.

If you look at the following clip of the Aikikai Doshu performing shomenuchi irimi nage, http://www.aikikai.nl/movies/T_Shomen_Iriminage_.ram , you will note that uke stumbles quite a distance forward, so that Doshu is next to him during the kake stage. If uke had got up sooner, then Doshu would have been far in front. Uke would then have enough space to turn around and strike...

I am having this difficulty where uke gets up fast - probably because:
(1) my kuzushi is bad (so I need some advice)
(2) uke's balance is very good
(3) uke doesn't attack with much power, so there isn't enough energy to whirl him down and around

All this results in my kake being rushed or uke having enough space to turn around and attack.

roosvelt
12-13-2005, 10:06 AM
eyrie... thanks for your answer. I'm actually thinking about the case when uke has very good balance and gets up very quickly.



Except in Randori, aikido trainning is two person kata training. The Uke should perform his part as well. It's like dance. If one partner don't know the steps or rythem, two can't dance together. If the uke comes faster than you can handle, so what? Just go ahead and perform your form. If Uke does something funny, just ask him/her to slow down.

Don't regard uke as a sandbag for the nage to throw. The uke plays equal important part in the kata.

Slow is better than fast.

roosvelt
12-13-2005, 10:47 AM
(1) Holding uke - I notice that some styles tend to grab the collar... I was wondering whether anyone has done a comparison between grabbing the collar and holding the attacker somewhere near the head (as above)... I'll be trying this myself, but it'll be a while before I can make conclusions...


Why worry about this? Just do whatever your Sensei showed you. Don't grab collar. It misses the point of this excercise. If you really want effective, why don't you further and grab hair or ear?



(2) Pulling uke's head onto the shoulder - this is also favored by some styles, while others don't pull the head so close... again, I will be trying this myself in the weeks ahead... but I'm curious what everyone thinks about pulling the head...


Again do whatever your Sensei showed you.

For people use muscle power, shoulder is stronger than arms. For Ki, people, it's just send ki to shoulder, upper arm or forearm. Just defferent excercise.



(3) Cutting down on uke's hand... I always thought (probably mistakenly) that we should blend in with uke's downward cut and "add to it" by cutting down ourselves... but I just read somewhere that we should NOT add to the cut but just extend uke's arm forwards... otherwise there is a tendency to cut uke's arm to ourselves... causing him to swing inwards towards you... sounds logical, but I wonder what everyone thinks...



Don't know if the explaination is correct. I also don't like the word "cutting down". Blend is a more like it. I don't think it means to match speed with the uke's arm, it's more like to find uke's centre and blend/connect your centre to it, then redirect.

I'm not good at this either. I don't have much chance to practice either because my partner always cut down too fast for my ability to handle. I just do it at end of their cut. Sometimes, it takes a longer than they like.

eyrie
12-13-2005, 04:44 PM
...
If you look at the following clip of the Aikikai Doshu performing shomenuchi irimi nage,...

Look where his fingertips are!!!! Where the head goes the body follows... ;)


I am having this difficulty where uke gets up fast - probably because:
(1) my kuzushi is bad (so I need some advice)
(2) uke's balance is very good
(3) uke doesn't attack with much power, so there isn't enough energy to whirl him down and around


Timing and ma-ai plays a large part too. Uke doesn't have to attack with power. The initial entry and kuzushi should be enough to effect movement on uke's part. Granted, the movement will be a very small circle. If uke has got good balance, there are a few tricks to effect kuzushi. This has to do with where uke's weight is centered. Go back and re-read my description. Drawing uke's weight on his front foot and into your center is the key. This is where kokyu comes into play.

Ketsan
12-13-2005, 08:46 PM
With reference to Aikido and the dynamic sphere "Kokyu nage" is what we call irimi nage ura and what's refered to as irimi nage in the book is what we call irimi nage omote.
Kokyu for us is a sort of exercise based on just about any technique. Ikkyo kokyu for example is a one handed affair where tori extends forward as much as possible causing uke to forward roll rather than the usual pin.

kokyu
12-14-2005, 06:39 AM
Except in Randori, aikido trainning is two person kata training. The Uke should perform his part as well. It's like dance.Don't grab collar. It misses the point of this excercise. If you really want effective, why don't you further and grab hair or ear? Don't know if the explaination is correct. I also don't like the word "cutting down". Blend is a more like it. I don't think it means to match speed with the uke's arm, it's more like to find uke's centre and blend/connect your centre to it, then redirect.

I agree that Aikido training is two person kata training... but dance? Sometimes I like to train with beginners because they tend to resist or not move so smoothly, so it is a measure of skill if you can move them well and without force... More advanced students have good ukemi and tend to follow, so you are sometimes not sure if your technique is effective (the concept of resistance has been discussed in many forums, so I won't bring it up here).

Some books suggest that one should grab the collar... so I'm sure there's some wisdom there... just wanted to know what other people think.

As for matching speed with uke's arm, I thought if you could cut down and follow uke's strike downwards, you could use the arm's energy and downward movement to help bring uke down... But I agree, it's very difficult.

kokyu
12-14-2005, 06:44 AM
Look where his fingertips are!!!! Where the head goes the body follows... ;)

eyrie... thanks... I use that tip about the head during the kake stage, but never thought about using it during kuzushi...

roosvelt
12-14-2005, 07:05 AM
Sometimes I like to train with beginners because they tend to resist or not move so smoothly, so it is a measure of skill if you can move them well and without force.



Without force?! Beginners?!

You should try it on strangers. See if you can move them without force. Stop living in a fantasy aikido land.

odudog
12-14-2005, 12:15 PM
I am re-looking at my irimi shomenuchi nage for the xxx time (This always reminds me why they call this the 30-year technique)... I have a couple of questions that I would be grateful for some enlightenment:
(1) Holding uke - I notice that some styles tend to grab the collar... I was wondering whether anyone has done a comparison between grabbing the collar and holding the attacker somewhere near the head (as above)... I'll be trying this myself, but it'll be a while before I can make conclusions...

Many thanks in advance...

Here are my reasons for why some styles don't hold the collar and some styles do:
1) In Japan, I witnessed at Aikikai Honbu that they grab the collar. This seems effective for I don't think you will find a guy in Japan that will attack you and he won't be wearing a shirt.

2) In my dojo here in the US, we are taught to grab the head. This seems effective for you are more likely to be attacked by a guy that is shirtless. Either a drunk at the park during a picnic, at the beach, at a sporting event, etc...

Now I don't know the actual reasons for the differences in technique but these are the reasons that I came up with to justify the differences for me.

eyrie
12-14-2005, 03:38 PM
Without force?! Beginners?!

You should try it on strangers. See if you can move them without force. Stop living in a fantasy aikido land.

Better yet, try it on someone from a completely different martial art and see how your technique holds up without "power". ;)

kokyu
12-17-2005, 07:34 PM
If uke has got good balance, there are a few tricks to effect kuzushi. This has to do with where uke's weight is centered. Go back and re-read my description. Drawing uke's weight on his front foot and into your center is the key. This is where kokyu comes into play.

eyrie... thanks again for pointing me in the right direction. Drawing uke's weight onto his front foot and into one's center seems to be a general concept in the Aikido framework.

I chanced upon an excellent book a few days ago that talks about this and other ideas: "Center - The Power of Aikido" by Ron Meyer and Mark Reeder. The book summarizes some of the ideas of Ikeda Sensei of Boulder Aikikai. I'll be trying to incorporate the ideas in my training in the months ahead... Actually, I'm very excited as reading the book has made me look at the techniques in a different light :)

kokyu
04-15-2006, 01:17 AM
Recently, I've seen a slight variation in bringing uke down in the last part of shomenuchi iriminage. Tori snaps his shoulder and hip forward (a bit like what you might do in katadori ikkyo omote to bring uke down) and uses that momentum to swing his arm into uke's neck.

This is slightly different from what I normally see where tori uses his shoulder to rotate his arm or push it directly into uke's neck - i.e. the hip doesn't snap forward. Has anyone seen this variation? Any comments?

Thanks.

eyrie
04-15-2006, 07:52 PM
I would say to forget the variations and focus on one thing - that of controlling uke's center throughout the entire movement. All the other "variations" will manifest itself depending on how uke moves. Unless you have a really excellent uke, it would be difficult to physically "do" anything and still call it aikido. ;)

eyrie
04-15-2006, 08:02 PM
Someone (I think it was the original poster) mentioned something about performing irimi-nage on a taller uke. The answer is simple: Bring the person down to your level. Hanmi hantachi is good exercise for this.

kokyu
04-15-2006, 08:49 PM
I would say to forget the variations and focus on one thing - that of controlling uke's center throughout the entire movement. All the other "variations" will manifest itself depending on how uke moves. Unless you have a really excellent uke, it would be difficult to physically "do" anything and still call it aikido. ;)

That's true, but what I saw was rather unusual. A lot of variations I see start differently - e.g. swinging the uke around to dissipate the energy, difference in freeing the grip, etc... but the finishing move is about the same... and what I saw was rather different.

Nick Pagnucco
04-16-2006, 09:47 AM
That's true, but what I saw was rather unusual. A lot of variations I see start differently - e.g. swinging the uke around to dissipate the energy, difference in freeing the grip, etc... but the finishing move is about the same... and what I saw was rather different.

Have you felt it? If so, how different does it feel?