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stern9631
06-17-2004, 02:46 PM
Does Aikido have leg throws,trips&traps and if so are they applied standing or on your back?

Greg Jennings
06-17-2004, 03:12 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "leg throws, trips and traps". But, I'll go out on a limb...

Most aikido schools do not have the kind of leg reaps that judo has such that nage ends up standing on one foot and reaping with the other foot, calf, thigh, etc.

Some schools do have many techniques where nage uses his lower and/or upper leg to create an obstacle that an unbalanced uke ends up pivoting over. The way that I explain this is that nage takes ukes balance but that that isn't good enough and nage has to use some sort of strategy to keep uke from regaining his balance. The techniques that I mention are one such strategy.

Some aikido schools have techniques where nage actually steps on uke's foot to keep uke from moving the foot to regain his balance. One has to be careful with this and get off the foot in good time.

Most aikido schools don't have the groundwork where one works from one's back. I'm not going to get into reasons, I'm just stating an observation.

Best regards,

Fred Little
06-17-2004, 03:53 PM
While these are not part of the core technical syllabus in ASU, I've attended a number of seminars in which Saotome Sensei has taught most of the standard ashi-waza, demonstrated as variations that can arise if nage's positioning and balance are correct. But the primary focus was correct positioning, timing, and balance. The foot and leg techniques were treated as fortuitous possibilities and not as outcomes to be sought in themselves.

Virtually all involved standing technique, although in past years he has (less frequently) also demonstrated some interesting sacrifice throws that involved foot techniques.

Best,

Fred Little

Greg Jennings
06-17-2004, 04:19 PM
Doh! In my effort to provide a simple answer to a beginner, I totally forgot about sacrifice throws...and they're one of my favorite techniques!

Regards,

Jordan Steele
06-17-2004, 04:31 PM
No, Aikido doesn't contain these types of techniques in its core curriculum, but that doesn't mean anything because 95% of the time the positioning is the same to execute a leg sweep or step in deep enough to perform various hip throws. So, leg throws and trips definitely have their place. I don't know about trapping though.

stern9631
06-17-2004, 04:48 PM
What is a sacrifice throw?

Jordan Steele
06-17-2004, 06:11 PM
Sacrifice throw="uh oh, I'm screwed, do whatever I can to get this guy on the ground!" Usually both nage and uke end up on the ground grappling. Most common sacrifice throw is when nage and uke are facing eachother and nage sticks his foot into ukes stomach and falls backwards projecting uke over himself. Hope this make some sense.

Fred Little
06-17-2004, 06:44 PM
Most common sacrifice throw is when nage and uke are facing eachother and nage sticks his foot into ukes stomach and falls backwards projecting uke over himself.

In Judo, this is called "tomoenage."

At a Star Trek Convention, this is called "the Captain Kirk throw." You know the episode: big lizard, cheesy styrofoam rock formations, single combat, fate of the human race riding on the outcome......

Best,

Fred Little

Lan Powers
06-18-2004, 02:33 AM
Throw Kirk, Throw!!! Use your "Federation flingdowns"
Gotta love the cheeeeeezy fight choreography.....
Lan

stern9631
06-18-2004, 09:13 AM
The main reason why I asked this question is because while I was training with my brother he decided to take his knee and shin and put it in the back of my knee and my calf. At this point he stopped his forward momentum and took my balance. Also, the leg trips we worked on are essentially throws from the ground.

Greg Jennings
06-18-2004, 09:32 AM
Sacrifice throw="uh oh, I'm screwed, do whatever I can to get this guy on the ground!" Usually both nage and uke end up on the ground grappling. Most common sacrifice throw is when nage and uke are facing eachother and nage sticks his foot into ukes stomach and falls backwards projecting uke over himself. Hope this make some sense.

I believe that the Japanese for what we're talking about is "sutemi".

I seem to remember that it means "to throw away the body", but I'm stretching there.

I've always taken it to mean a situation where, for whatever reason, my strategy is to give up my own balance in order to throw uke. Because my balance is gone, I do often end up on the ground, but not necessarily grappling.

The "Captain Kirk" or "Cowboy Throw" that you mention rarely shows up for me. I usually get it when somone leans over when they throw me..even in kokyu dosa.

Best regards,

gilsinnj
06-18-2004, 11:16 AM
As a general rule, leg sweaps and trips aren't really effective. That doesn't mean that kneeing someone in the back of their thigh (in that nasty little nerve above the knee). I really enjoy that little move. :) :D

We also practice some judo and jujitsu along with our Aikido techniques, which usually involve doing some ground fighting and leg locks and such. Although these aren't standard Aikido techniques, you can still train your Aikido principles (remain relaxed, keep one point, etc.) while working on different physical techniques.

And who knows, you might be taken down while in a situation. Aikido teaches you to work from suri waza, but not much else. You need to know how to defend youself if you do end up on your back or in a strange situation, so it doens't hurt to learn to deal with whatever comes at you.

Don_Modesto
06-18-2004, 12:54 PM
As a general rule, leg sweaps and trips aren't really effective.

Why do you say so?

DaveO
06-18-2004, 01:37 PM
Why do you say so?

By themselves; they're not very useful - too easy to counter/avoid and fairly difficult to obtain since the attacker's legs are most likely either moving fast or well grounded. Used in conjunction with a high/low attack/counter series however; devastatingly effective. ;)

Ron Tisdale
06-18-2004, 02:01 PM
Yep, I like 'em. Work exceptionally well if you off balance the person first. :) There's a sweet one in the ikkajo Daito ryu syllibus...

Also, there is a style of koshinage that uses the leg instead of the hip to block uke's movement to cause the throw. If you do that in combination with shihonage...devastating would be an understatement. I HATE taking that ukemi...

Ron

Michael Neal
06-18-2004, 02:54 PM
As a general rule, leg sweaps and trips aren't really effective

leg trips, reaps are very effective. If they are not working for you then you are not doing them correctly.

my strategy is to give up my own balance in order to throw uke. Because my balance is gone, I do often end up on the ground, but not necessarily grappling

You should not give up your own balance while doing sacrifice throws, you should yield, there is a difference. Often in order for these to work you need to pull uke sharply towards you first to get them off balance, kuzushi. Rarely will uke just happen to be leaning way forward for you to execute them, you have to create off balancing not just wait for it.

there is a style of koshinage that uses the leg instead of the hip to block uke's movement to cause the throw

that would be Harai-goshi in Judo, "sweeping hip throw". Ideally you use both your hip and the sweeping motion of the leg simultaniously.

Ron Tisdale
06-18-2004, 03:12 PM
yep, works like a charm.

In one aikido style of koshi where you do this, you can also enter with your body, hips perpendicular to the ground, uke stretched to off balance (the controling hand held high) then use the power of turning the hip parallel to ground and cutting with the hand to throw. Tends to take folks by surprise a lot...especially when combined with a body change, or shooting the leg in an unexpected angle.

Ron

gilsinnj
06-18-2004, 11:21 PM
I said leg sweaps aren't really effective because many people that really know something about fighting have seen them and have some sort of counter.

There are a lot of strikes or atemi's to the legs that aren't what I would consider a sweap. Sweaps are usually just meant to take the balance away from your attacker. Yeah, you might be able to catch the person off gaurd, but its much mroe effective to do an actual atemi with some power behind it that actually moves their mind than just trying to sweap their feet/leg.

-- Jim

Michael Neal
06-19-2004, 09:32 AM
sweeping works on seasoned Judoka who know how to avoid and counter them, they will surely work on other people as well. They also work good as a combination throw, foot sweep to a koshinage as you would call it.

Ron, I think the throw you are describing is tai otoshi, "body drop".

Ron Tisdale
06-21-2004, 08:02 AM
I said leg sweaps aren't really effective because many people that really know something about fighting have seen them and have some sort of counter.

As Michael said, they work against judoka who use them themselves, all the time...if they work in shiai, I see no reason to doubt them in other environments, as long as you take into account the fact that people may well be striking or using weapons as well as grappling. Everything has a counter...shiho, nikkajo...everything.

There are a lot of strikes or atemi's to the legs that aren't what I would consider a sweap. Sweaps are usually just meant to take the balance away from your attacker. Yeah, you might be able to catch the person off gaurd, but its much mroe effective to do an actual atemi with some power behind it that actually moves their mind than just trying to sweap their feet/leg.
-- Jim

Well, since the 'sweeps' I do are predicated on taking the balance **first** (after all we are talking aikido/daito ryu, which means breaking the balance at the moment of contact) I've already 'moved' uke's mind (and body) before the sweep occurs. Remember that the model here for the sweep is the judo ashi barai / daito ryu model, not the kung fu/karate spinning sweep model. Add to that the fact that they are ususally part of a coordinated attack/defense/movement...

uke does a strong wrist or sleave grasp,

shite enters into that side of uke and out at an angle striking the carotid artery at the same time,

Shite's striking hand moves to the shoulder of uke's grasping hand to maintain the kuzushi,

shite draws the back foot even with their front foot (without raising your body or center) and then strongly thrusts the foot back behind ukes close leg, and cutting/thrusting down with the hand on the shoulder.

Please be carefull if you should try this...the atemi and the sweep can both be dangerous if control isn't used, or if uke's ushiro ukemi isn't up to snuff. I've seen people concussed from this throw (head hits the mat first). For regular practice, change the atemi to a strike to the solar plexus...safer that way.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
06-21-2004, 08:39 AM
Oh, just a note...you can find a much better and more detailed explanation of the technique above in Kondo Sensei's book on Ikkajo.

RT

L. Camejo
06-21-2004, 08:41 AM
Hey Ron,

That tech you gave above sounds very similar to a leg sweep modification of aigamae ate (irimi nage) that I have taught in our "open" sessions as a response to a yokomen strike or grab. Similar to your strike to the carotid, we move in with sen timing with a palm heel to the chin which takes the head back and the balance with it. After this, pressure is maintained on the chin, pushing the head back as Tori's inner leg does an osoto gari type sweep while stepping in and pushing the head backwards and downwards simultaneously. Pushing on the shoulder is great, pushing on the chin is even more effective I've found. Shoulder is good to understand the movement principle behind the tech imo, chin is good for nasty application. evileyes

The result is a very hard ushiro ukemi that can easily cause a concussion. We tend to practice this at about 1/10th power at first so folks can get the feel for the movement and the ukemi. From my judo experience I've found that a lot of the atemi waza in aikido can be nicely enhanced through the use of a few leg sweeps/locks. Though I tend to teach these not as part of our main Aikido class, but as self defence options and applications, as folks tend to use these sweeps as a means of avoiding applying the proper kuzushi and timing in regular practice.

In my learning, proper Aikido uses correct timing, body movement and kuzushi to apply technique without resorting to sweeps. However the effect of sweeps in enhancing kuzushi for techniques is undeniable and should be explored if it is allowed.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
06-21-2004, 09:36 AM
In my learning, proper Aikido uses correct timing, body movement and kuzushi to apply technique without resorting to sweeps. However the effect of sweeps in enhancing kuzushi for techniques is undeniable and should be explored if it is allowed.

Yep, I often see people trained in judo or karate sweep when their technique doesn't work because they didn't get proper kuzushi to start with. They have to force the sweep...and because aikidoka don't use those often, they go down hard. Same with hip throws. Daito ryu also uses the chin/head to throw on versions of this technique and others. Very dangerous...but nice. :)

Train the proper technique first, then move to these nice little 'additions'. The nice thing about being exposed to Daito ryu is that these **are** the techniques, so you get to really work on them under proper supervision. Sweeps probably wouldn't be considered 'kosher' in my style of aikido either... :D I had one teacher who let us push the boundries a bit, but when we got to carried away "only aikido!" was his admonition. The other thing I like about the Daito ryu training is that I get more of a feel of coordinated attacking as shite. Aikido seems to often depend upon 3 levels of defense...move, block, atemi then technique. Daito ryu seems to do much the same...but all of these seem to be performed with more of a feeling of 3 levels of attack rather than defense. I'm still working a lot of this out in my head though...so take it with the ususual grains (lumps) of salt...

Don, if you're reading this...what is your take?

RT

Don_Modesto
06-21-2004, 02:39 PM
Hi, gents!

...we move in with sen timing with a palm heel to the chin which takes the head back and the balance with it. After this, pressure is maintained on the chin, pushing the head back as Tori's inner leg does an osoto gari type sweep while stepping in and pushing the head backwards and downwards simultaneously....The result is a very hard ushiro ukemi that can easily cause a concussion.

Yes. First time I experienced this, it was to me by a 4 KYU and he knocked the beejeezus out of me. My fingers tingled for ten minutes. I think he got it from a book because no one else in his dojo does that. Woke me up about my slack UKEMI.

....folks tend to use these sweeps as a means of avoiding applying the proper kuzushi and timing in regular practice.

In my learning, proper Aikido uses correct timing, body movement and kuzushi to apply technique without resorting to sweeps. However the effect of sweeps in enhancing kuzushi for techniques is undeniable and should be explored if it is allowed.

I agree about aikido eschewing sweeps for finesse, but I think using sweeps can give beginners (...er, and me, if you hold me to it) a feel for more "authentic" NAGE WAZA. Once they've captured the feel, they can try to translate that into a "purer" versions sans reaps, sweeps, ATEMI, etc. without undue cooperation from UKE. I got this experience from this very technique you describe above, actually, in DR (KURUMA DAOSHI). The placement for the reap was perfect for learning KUZUSHI without it. Now I notice that angle everywhere, most particularly in the Aikido Journal videos of Yamaguchi and Osawa.

Train the proper technique first, then move to these nice little 'additions'. The nice thing about being exposed to Daito ryu is that these **are** the techniques, so you get to really work on them under proper supervision.

Bingo! My take exactly.

Ellis Amdur made a very memorable quote on one of these boards once when he likened Osensei's teaching to walking up a snow-covered mountain dragging a branch behind you to hide your tracks and expecting folk to follow. I wouldn't say didactically which method of learning is best, pure first or tricky first; I consciously go back and forth in my training and teaching.

The other thing I like about the Daito ryu training is that I get more of a feel of coordinated attacking as shite. Aikido seems to often depend upon 3 levels of defense...move, block, atemi then technique. Daito ryu seems to do much the same...but all of these seem to be performed with more of a feeling of 3 levels of attack rather than defense. I'm still working a lot of this out in my head though...so take it with the ususual grains (lumps) of salt...

Don, if you're reading this...what is your take?

Thanks for asking. I don't feel the difference you mention, but my aikido has always been unapologetically aggressive. Especially in the last couple of years, I've been trying for that excruciating timing whereby you steal UKE's prerogative to attack by initiating just before he can. (FWIW, in the last couple of years I've gotten really clumsy, too. I take great comfort in George Ledyard's comment that if your aikido is smoothly improving you're not pushing the envelope.)

Did I address your question? CU.

Don_Modesto
06-21-2004, 02:40 PM
Hi, gents!

...we move in with sen timing with a palm heel to the chin which takes the head back and the balance with it. After this, pressure is maintained on the chin, pushing the head back as Tori's inner leg does an osoto gari type sweep while stepping in and pushing the head backwards and downwards simultaneously....The result is a very hard ushiro ukemi that can easily cause a concussion.

Yes. First time I experienced this, it was done to me by a 4 KYU and he knocked the beejeezus out of me. My fingers tingled for ten minutes. I think he got it from a book because no one else in his dojo does that. Woke me up about my slack UKEMI.

....folks tend to use these sweeps as a means of avoiding applying the proper kuzushi and timing in regular practice.

In my learning, proper Aikido uses correct timing, body movement and kuzushi to apply technique without resorting to sweeps. However the effect of sweeps in enhancing kuzushi for techniques is undeniable and should be explored if it is allowed.

I agree about aikido eschewing sweeps for finesse, but I think using sweeps can give beginners (...er, and me, if you hold me to it) a feel for more "authentic" NAGE WAZA. Once they've captured the feel, they can try to translate that into a "purer" versions sans reaps, sweeps, ATEMI, etc. without undue cooperation from UKE. I got this experience from this very technique you describe above, actually, in DR (KURUMA DAOSHI). The placement for the reap was perfect for learning KUZUSHI without it. Now I notice that angle everywhere, most particularly in the Aikido Journal videos of Yamaguchi and Osawa.

Train the proper technique first, then move to these nice little 'additions'. The nice thing about being exposed to Daito ryu is that these **are** the techniques, so you get to really work on them under proper supervision.

Bingo! My take exactly.

Ellis Amdur made a very memorable quote on one of these boards once when he likened Osensei's teaching to walking up a snow-covered mountain dragging a branch behind you to hide your tracks and expecting folk to follow. I wouldn't say didactically which method of learning is best, pure first or tricky first; I consciously go back and forth in my training and teaching.

The other thing I like about the Daito ryu training is that I get more of a feel of coordinated attacking as shite. Aikido seems to often depend upon 3 levels of defense...move, block, atemi then technique. Daito ryu seems to do much the same...but all of these seem to be performed with more of a feeling of 3 levels of attack rather than defense. I'm still working a lot of this out in my head though...so take it with the ususual grains (lumps) of salt...

Don, if you're reading this...what is your take?

Thanks for asking. I don't feel the difference you mention, but my aikido has always been unapologetically aggressive. Especially in the last couple of years, I've been trying for that excruciating timing whereby you steal UKE's prerogative to attack by initiating just before he can. (FWIW, in the last couple of years I've gotten really clumsy, too. I take great comfort in George Ledyard's comment that if your aikido is smoothly improving you're not pushing the envelope.)

Did I address your question somewhere in there?

Ron Tisdale
06-21-2004, 03:00 PM
Yep, I think so. I still try to take a peak at my daito ryu training from a yoshinkan perspective, and visa versa from time to time...its probably a waste of time! Mostly just keeping them separate seems to work best. While the yoshinkan stuff can be pretty "agressive" compared to some other styles of aikido...the daito ryu techniques still give me a feeling of invasiveness.

Ron

jester
06-21-2004, 04:32 PM
I said leg sweaps aren't really effective because many people that really know something about fighting have seen them and have some sort of counter.

I'd have to disagree totally. Leg sweeps, reaps, etc. are incredibly effective. You have to know when to do them, and not rush into it. Like all techniques, eventually uke will end up in a position to sweep him. If you try to sweep him and not set him up, he will be able to counter.

This is true with Kote-gaeshi, Shiho nage etc.
If he counters in one direction, He gives you the other direction.

These 3 techniques (O Uchi Gari, Osoto Gari, Ko Uchi Gari) are really good ones to practice.

Lachlan Kadick
07-12-2004, 11:37 AM
I don't know about actually using your legs in training, besides for balance(and because of my prior Tae Kwon Do training, maybe blocking,) but in terms of defending against a kick, most of the basic Aikido movement can be applied. Since most kicks are projected just like a person might strike with their hand, the basic deflecting movement would be the same, and since most of the joints in the legs can be compared to the joints in the arms, several of the basic techniques as well can be used on a kick.

Rupert Atkinson
07-12-2004, 08:18 PM
Having done a lot of Judo I do like put in the occasional trip or low sweep / kick into an Aiki technique. Sometimes, they are just made for each other.

JasonFDeLucia
07-16-2004, 09:59 PM
Does Aikido have leg throws,trips&traps and if so are they applied standing or on your back?
as long as you move in the spirit of aiki ,that is using and redirecting the reactions (when pushed pull,when pulled push,when pushed turn ,when pulled enter ect.)riding resistance ,any technique is an aikido technique.if the intent was achieved by timing of and directing of force and not brute force it is an aikido technique.indeed mr. ueshiba can be seen puting men down with a simple over hand right (western boxing style).the reason they go down is timing not brute force.if you know how to knock out like roy jones you know it's a skill.if you see the forced rendition of a knock out you see that it was brute force .mr. ueshiba is quoted as saying ,''it's not that aikido has no kicks,it's just that it's too easy to be swept.the sweep then is considered of value by the aiki master ,and don't forget we can see mr.ueshiba throwing the knee(from seiza no less )
the reason the traditional kihon is standardized that way is that aside from being essential techniques they are also the easiest way for beginners to experience aiki and assimilate it into everything.