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Dan Hover
02-18-2001, 08:49 PM
After reading through a lot of posts and arguments raised on these pages about Aikido recently (thank you Jim23) I started thinking of the basic myth of Martial Arts in regards to application against kicks, street fights and Aikido vs. whatever, etc, etc, etc,... has it ever occurred to anyone that most martials arts are based on the premise that you are A) fighting another skilled fighter B) and coincedentally enough fights in your same style? Now before the advocates of "I cross train to be more adaptive to the situation..." et al. It still begs the question that even if you are a Karateka who cross trains in Aikido or versa vice you are still formally studying a distinct fighting strategy. This is a falsehood of preparation that we buy into. As unless you are in a Seagal movie very rarely if at all will you run into a trained street attacker. Street defense and application are not parts of a "do" system, and we tend to try to defend our choice by comparing Aikido to whatever, in whatever ridiculous context that we are discussing whether it be live blades on a test, vs. NHB, kick defenses, whatever. Are we so insecure of our choice of art that we need that reassurance? That we have practical self defense techniques? I find these kinds of arguments banal in their existence, and sort of demeaning to the concept of what a "DO" form is, and what it represents, that is a way to make the world a better place, through self-perfection, based on shugyo training in that art. Keeping that in mind, it bears little on the choice of that style as long as the tenets of the "DO" form are adhered to. Karate, Judo, Kyudo, Aikido are have different ways to take us to the same place, and by arguing over semantical issues we miss the big point of why we train to begin with, Aikido is no more practical than Karate which is no more practical than Judo, in a combative sense. Yet, all have the same way of dealing with combat. That is control and suppress the factors that lead to violence. This is what we should train in. This is why we should train. comparitive merits of style vs. style in a "real life" scenario should be saved for something less worthy like the pages of Black Belt magazine. So pick this apart, and quote the semantical sentences that can lead to a belittling tirade, and let me know what you think.

DemonD
02-19-2001, 03:02 AM
I think you may have a good point on styles of training, but fighting in the street is a lot less about technique and more about confidence and ability to react to percieved threats. So If you take this point of view then all matial arts training has value.
After training for a long time some of the techinques will automatically flow into your street fighting style but this takes time and cannot be done in a few months training.
So If you are interested in martial arts, in time you will learn better fighting. If you want to learn self defence be prepared for little realistic improvement for a long time.
I have never studied aikido as a street fighting sytle but I realise the value of some of the techniques in a street fight. The thing that must be realised that the two are separate skills but they can compliment each other.
I believe that treating Aikido as another art for beating people to a pulp does not do it justice.

Dave Britten.

JJF
02-19-2001, 06:35 AM
Hi Dan!

Way to go. You pretty much speak my mind on this subject. No belittling tirade from this side :). My primeary reason for practicing Aikido (or any MA for that matter) has never been selfdefence in a practial and direct way, but I strongly believe that many years of practice in any MA can potentially develop a mindset and a confidence that can keep one out of most types of trouble, and help one to get trough those that are unavoidable.

Sincerely

petra
02-19-2001, 08:21 AM
Good point Dan! I started training self-defense 8-9 years ago, because I was sick and tired of all the people who told me I could not go somewhere on my own because it's not safe for a woman, while if I were I man they would not have any objection. I am a young independent woman, I studied at a technical university (80-90 % male students) and I am accustumed to doing most things myself or on my own.
The self-defense training was mixed and often I was the only woman training. We trained all kinds of things, karate, judo, boxing, groundfights, grabling etc. and it made me feel confident enough to deal with a crazy rottweiler and even more crazy owner. Due to an accident I could not train for a year and after that a friend introduced me to aikido. I trained both self-defence and aikido for a while but to me aikido became more of a challenge.
The technical aspects are far more demanding, it is gracious and you do not use force (unlike self-defence) but trains your skills, unbalance your partner. I've been training aikido for 2,5 years now and I am hooked. I like the people I train with, there is no prejudice amongst them, contrary to some self-defense people I have known. I have learned alot and there is so much more to learn! But as for streetfighting? My teacher puts it like this, if you are attacked, don't do aikido, do whatever is necessary. I know I never want to end up fighting with him for real because I be toast, but then again how many people will actually encounter a streetfight?
There is so much more you can do before a fight start e.g. simply walk away, anybody who is serious about a MA should know that a fight is the last resort, not a beginning.
I train for the fun of it, not the street effectiveness. I like having dinner with my fellow students after a good days training. I like it that some techniques keep eluding me and then I suddenly see/feel it, while the next moment I am stumbeling along again untill I see it again and again untill it sticks with me! I like working to better myself and my fellow students not to 'put somebody through the ground'. If I ever find myself in a situation where I have to actually fight, I have already lost even if I should be the one to walk away in one piece.
Sorry for the long post, but there have been quite a few discussions on the street-effective subject lately. I agree with Dan, train because you like it not to defend yourself.

Nick
02-19-2001, 11:03 AM
To everyone who has posted thus far-- good job! I feel exactly the same...

Nick

Jim23
02-19-2001, 11:21 AM
Dan,

Believe it or not, I agree with everything you've said, 100%.

I think you'd agree also that because there are so many personalities, opinions and experience levels of the people in this forum, the typical questions, comments and responses are inevitable. With every post, someone either agrees or disagrees, and on it goes.

And don't forget that there are new people joining the forum every day (and people joining aikido every day for every reason that you can think of).

I think that's just life.

Jim23

REK
02-19-2001, 01:03 PM
Dan:

Well said! Thank you for saying something that needed to be expressed. I was beginning to think that I was in the wrong art! :D

My feeling is that aikido can be a frightfully effective "street" or "defense" art. It came from some pretty brutal ancestors. But the beauty to me is the expansion of choices, views and opportunities. You can see aikido's application as purely gutter, ie, get off the line of attack, attack opponent's midline, kime, zanshin, etc. or you can see a way to not have to do any of that. I think that last part has gone unacknowledged (unappreciated) in recent threads. I stand by something someone once said: if you want to be a good fighter, fight a lot. If you survive you will become good. Doesn't matter what you do.

I would add: if you want to grow and evolve, follow a michi/do. It doesn't matter which. Aikido is the ultimate martial art to/for me. I couldn't care less if others agree or disagree, and I won't try to change their minds.

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. You just get muddy and the pig loves it"

chrisinbrasil
02-19-2001, 01:55 PM
Hi Dan,
Gee, after so many pats on the back, I almost feel like the bad guy here but hey, somebodyīs got to be... :)

Dan Hover wrote:
"As unless you are in a Seagal movie very rarely if at all will you run into a trained street attacker."

I canīt say I agree 100% here. True, most arenīt WELL-versed in fighting, but most street punks and thugs know lots of fighting skills!
exempli gratia: walk up smiling, punch you in the face, and take everything. Walk up to shake your hand and sucker punch you. et cetera. Besides these street wise bad elements, I know at least 1000 martial artists. Donīt you, and evybody else? Ever been to a seminar? Think none of them would ever get into a fight with you? ok,ok,...

"Are we so insecure of our choice of art that we need that reassurance? That we have practical self defense techniques? I find these kinds of arguments banal in their existence, and sort of demeaning to the concept of what a "DO" form is, and what it represents, that is a way to make the world a better place, through self-perfection, based on shugyo training in that art."

Honestly, I donīt cross-train because I feel like giving myself an ego boost or because I need more self-confidence, I cross-train because you can never know enough and itīs not demeaning to the concept of "DO" arts, at least not MY concept, maybe to YOURS.

"Karate, Judo, Kyudo, Aikido are have different ways to take us to the same place,"

YES!! YES!!!

"and by arguing over semantical issues we miss the big point of why we train to begin with,"

Why you train, you mean?

"Aikido is no more practical than Karate which is no more practical than Judo, in a combative sense. Yet, all have the same way of dealing with combat. That is control and suppress the factors that lead to violence. This is what we should train in. This is why we should train."

I wish I wrote that well! :)

"comparitive merits of style vs. style in a "real life" scenario should be saved for something less worthy like the pages of Black Belt magazine."

Arenīt we here to discuss things that interest us?

"So pick this apart, and quote the semantical sentences that can lead to a belittling tirade, and let me know what you think." [/B]

Humm, sorry. No belittling tirade though. I quite enjoy otherīs opinions.
That was my first pick-somebody-elseīs-post-apart post. I actually feel different now... :)

sceptoor
02-19-2001, 02:02 PM
Great post Dan!! I agree!!

Personally, I believe Aikido can be (depending on the person) very effective on the "street", but I don't train for that reason. There will be people that begin training in Aikido or whatever other art/way for that very reason, but I believe that as they grow and learn, they eventually train mostly for the fun of it. Aikido is an amazing MA to me and the amazement never ceases, and/or never gets boring. That's (personally) why I train, not because my goal is to become the ultimate and highly feared "bad ass" like that which the streets of Tampa have never seen.

I do know one thing though, regardless of the MA one trains in, I can't imagine that the knowledge one gains from that training can't/won't help that individual in an unavoidable fight/attack. It HAS to be better than to have never trained in any MA at all. Personally, I've never been attacked on the street, but I'd like to be a little more prepared than I was, say, two years ago when I knew very little, if nothing at all, regarding MA's or how to defend myself. The more I learn, the more I realize how naive it is to NOT train in (insert MA here), as I was basically a victim just waiting to happen. I still may very well be, but my awareness is sharper now than back then, and as long as I continue training I'll be more prepared to deal with an attack if/when that ever happens. That's all one can do, and one shouldn't go through life worrying about the day some ultimate street fighting killer will attack, because if that happens, chances are they'll be a victim anyway. One can only prepare "so much". My Aikido training is more about having fun and learning about myself, rather than to become the most dangerous and feared man on Earth. I believe the most important thing is to just keep on training, having fun, and learn as much as you can. When I am ready, I'll probably decide to train in another MA, like Hapkido or that Kyusho stuff(very interesting BTW) that somebody posted a link to, but for now I think I'll stick with one MA, and I choose Aikido.

Jim23
02-19-2001, 02:18 PM
Boy, can you feel the love in this room. You can cut it with a knife. ;)

Jim23

chrisinbrasil
02-19-2001, 03:22 PM
Hi,
In sceptoorīs signature there is a quote...
"A jack-of-all-trades is a master of NONE."
Bruce Lee said that and he was one himself.

Oooooohhh! Burn!! hehehe
Sorry, I flashed back to third grade there.
No offense intended, just poking you where it stings...
:)

Jim23
02-19-2001, 03:34 PM
Chris,

Don't get me in trouble here. The fact that my post is after Sceptoor's and before yours puts me in a very dangerous position. ;)

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 19, 2001 at 03:37pm]

sceptoor
02-19-2001, 09:33 PM
chrisinbrasil wrote:
Hi,
In sceptoorīs signature there is a quote...
"A jack-of-all-trades is a master of NONE."
Bruce Lee said that and he was one himself.

Oooooohhh! Burn!! hehehe
Sorry, I flashed back to third grade there.
No offense intended, just poking you where it stings...
:)

None taken. I like the "Oooooh! Burn!!" part, CLASSIC. :D

I realize Bruce Lee was a Jack of all trades, but let's just say he was an exception. Wouldn't he at least be the master of Jeet Kune Do?? :D So was Morehei Ueshiba a "jack of all trades" as were/are some of his uchi-deshi/disciples. He was the master of Aikido though. So, I guess the exception to that rule is when the "jack of all trades" creates something new and complete through refinement of whatever many trades?? Anyways....

ian
02-20-2001, 05:22 AM
Ueshiba was also a jack of all trades, though he concentrated on what he thought was effective (though he still used very powerful strikes). Admittedly most of the poeple that attacked him were martial artists, but that doesn't mean aikido is not useful for street fights.

I do agree that training in a martial art doesn't necessarily make you better able to defend yourself - alot of it is about attitude and confidence.

However, the way that aikido techniques are designed is to cover 'attack types'. i.e. not many people strike you with a yokomen or shomen uchi, but they will attack you with a roundhouse punch or a overhead strike with a bottle. The attack types simulate all potential attack types (we often used to have a session where we would do more 'realistic' attacks, to show how they relate to the formal attacks).

Also, I think it makes it more difficult with less commited attacks. However these attacks tend to be weaker and of less consequence and don't stop you doing a technique.

However Dan, [in this new era on aikiweb of constructive responses] I think you do draw an important point to the foreground - training in a martial art will not make you into a superman.

Ian

P.S. aikido has helped me in very real situations; maybe I could of defended myself with another martial art or sport (e.g. boxing) or natural reactions; however I doubt if I would have had such a success with damage limitation.

Steve Speicher
02-20-2001, 08:34 AM
On street-effectiveness I have to say I wish some had more confidence in aikido. While I don't believe self-defence should be the primary or only reason one trains in aikido, the art remains far from useless in combat.

I don't know if O Sensei's writings seem too etherical or esoteric to most, but I find great wisdom in them. Aikido proves there is no need for a fight. Technically, one never 'fights' when attacked if they use aikido properly. When you are already in harmony, the attacker's aggresive energy will only harm themselves. And, aside from respect, I'd be extremely hesitant to attack my sensei's unexpectedly out on the street, as I am not much of a masochist.

I'm not trying to say, go train in aikido for two weeks and you no longer need fear any attacker. But even after my very limited experience in aikido (so far), I feel I'm much more likely to stay relaxed and aware if attacked, then previously.

- Steve Speicher

P.S. Please don't misinterpret, I agree that the primary reason for training should be to better oneself and those around them, and that aikido teaches us how a fight is the last resort and to be avoided at all costs.

P.S.S. Who wants to be a master in anything? You stop learning when you master something because you've nothing left to learn. I hope to always stay with 'beginner's mind' in my endeavers (too lazy to spellcheck that one).

chrisinbrasil
02-20-2001, 03:50 PM
Hi all,
Letīs start with a quick response, hey, why not end with one too?...
1. Youīve gone and said exactly what I said... Ueshiba, Lee, and many more are Jacks of all trades. So what (or who) says I canīt or shouldnīt be or that itīs wrong, confusing, unhealthy, stupid, whatever? Thatīs a pretty good reason for being in my mind.

2. I donīt believe that Aikido isnīt street effective. I never and would never say that. I merely believe that Aikido + Kickboxing is better than just Aikido. Just as I might venture that Tae Kwon Do + Boxing is better than just Boxing, BJJ + Kyokishin O. better than just K. Oyama, et cetera.

3. "P.S." stands for Post Scriptum. Therefore Post Post Scriptum (P.P.S.)might exist, and maybe even P.P.P.S., but I strongly doubt "Post Scriptum Scriptum" (P.S.S.)! :D
That was the part where I playfully give Steve a hard time while helping people with their abbreviations. :)

Magma
02-20-2001, 03:58 PM
If I understand the thrust of the original post, I think I'm in agreement. At least in part... let me explain.

I, too, have thought that MA's often prepare their students for only what that Art also teaches. That is, aikido prepares students for defense against grabs and basic strikes, not so much kicks. Tae Kwon Do, et al, prepares you to face a strong kicker, but not so much against grabs. Iaido and Kendo face a partner with another sword. But I say that in light of these "holes" in each art, it is up to the student to find Truth in what they are doing. What is the benefit? Why train if these are only applicable against another student of (insert MA here).

Two reasons I have found so far. One, what we do in any art does not stop with the technique. There is more going on there: in aikido, we aren't learning just to throw someone, we are learning to drop our center and take balance. Similarly, as someone touched on a bit earlier, the "punch" isn't necessarily a punch. It's a delivery mechanism. It could be a stab, a grab, a claw, or whatever. So we are training (in Aikido or TKD, or whatever) to face an energy pattern, of whatever form it may take.

And two, this piece of wisdom comes to me from my TKD instructor: "When we get into a fight on the street, are we going to punch like our basic punch?" That is, in a long front stance, opposite fist at the hip, stepping forward with the side that is punching. "No! So why do we train in the basics? So that when we do get into that fight on the street and WE bastardize our technique and the other guy bastardizes HIS technique, we'll be closer to 'right,' closer to a pure transferral of power."

So I guess I agree that a MA makes you face what that MA can potentially bring against you, but that doesn't mean that what you're learning cannot be applied outside of that MA. I may never front punch in a front stance, but that's taught me about hip power and power transferral. I may never attempt some of the kokyunages that we do in the dojo, but they're still teaching me about leading, getting off-line, and taking balance.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Jim23
02-20-2001, 05:22 PM
Chrisinbrasil,

I'm tempted to ask, *cough* what have you been smoking? :)

Jim23

chrisinbrasil
02-21-2001, 07:14 AM
Jim23 wrote:
Chrisinbrasil,

I'm tempted to ask, *cough* what have you been smoking? :)

Jim23

And why is that exactly Jim? Did you have difficulty in understanding a particular part of my post or are you just being (trying to be) funny?

REK
02-21-2001, 07:21 AM
Tim,

I liked that summary you just made. I trained with a godan in katori shinto ryu kenjutsu. He visited the shotokan dojo where I practiced and was convinced to participate in sparring. Now, conventional wisdom may have predicted the outcome of these friendly matches. Don't be fooled. Chiba (not the Aikido Chiba) was brilliant. In the words of some of the yudansha, he "laid waste" to many of them. And he did so without any lessons in karate. The response was a flocking of shotokan students to the kenjutsu dojo. An incorrect response, said Chiba Sensei. Chiba did not engage in "kumite" like a "swordsman". He just used his highly refined mastery of distance, timing, focus, positioning, weight distribution and balance. To him it was all still "kenjutsu". To the staggering neophyte, it was "the ultimate martial art". For me, the lesson was that it is not the art that is most street effective. It is the person and his/her grasp of the fundamentals. A spinning back hook kick might win the tournament, but often a subtle tenkan is all that is required to win the fight.

Rob

Jim23
02-21-2001, 07:36 AM
[i]chrisinbrasil wrote:
... or are you just being (trying to be) funny? [/B]
Just trying to be funny. Guess I need more practice.

Jim23

Magma
02-21-2001, 07:52 AM
Thank you, Rob. That's a cool story about Chiba.

Jim, just curious. I have been posting here for nearly a year and I don't have half the number of posts that you have. (I've even seen threads where you've replied three times in a row, without anyone else's post interrupting). I'm just wondering how old you are and what you do with the rest of your day? Where do you train? Again, I'm just curious, this is not an attack in any way.

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Steve Speicher
02-21-2001, 08:46 AM
Ah yes, Post Post Scriptums, and PPPS, PPPPS, exist as far as you want to take it. I just got carried away with my Scriptums....... thanks for the correction.

Oh, and my reply was to the entire reply, I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with cross-training. While it will be quite a while before I aggressively train in another MA, I've signed up for a Tai Chi Chuan class at my university in the spring, and enjoy talking/working with a TKD friend (black belt) and seeing what insights his training can bring to my understanding.

Matt Banks
02-21-2001, 10:31 AM
Dan Hover you said ''in whatever ridiculous context that we are discussing whether it be live blades on a test''. Testing with a live blade is not ridiculous, in the years Ive praticed im surprised at how so many people in this forum dont train in this way. Go to japan and train and you will see live knife training alot. In every yoshinkan dojo you''l see this. Who are you to say that it is ridiulous seeing as it was probably occuring before you were born.


Matt Banks

Kenn
02-21-2001, 11:42 AM
That's (personally) why I train, not because my goal is to become the ultimate and highly feared "bad ass" like that which the streets of Tampa have never seen.

Tampa, eh, where in Tampa? I personally live near Tampa and train with Arakawa Sensei at Hyde Park Aikikai.

Just Curious,

Kenn

Dan Hover
02-21-2001, 03:25 PM
Matt Banks wrote:
Dan Hover you said ''in whatever ridiculous context that we are discussing whether it be live blades on a test''. Testing with a live blade is not ridiculous, in the years Ive praticed im surprised at how so many people in this forum dont train in this way.

please allow me to indulge everyone as to the why of this: "Once for a demonstration with Saito Sensei - I think when I was about Sandan - I asked O sensei if I could use a live blade for our tantodori demonstration, but he rejected the idea. I think he has a clearer understanding of my real ability than I did at the time and knew it wouldnt be a good idea. A while later I did use a live blade at another demonstration that O sensei couldn't attend, and of course I injured myself. I felt so foolish, and it took injuring myself like that to figure out why he had denied my request the first time."

-Hiroshi Isoyama Hachidan

Now, if that rationale is good enough for him, I hope it works for us, who will probably only walk in the shadows of the greats. For obvious safety reasons I feel training with a live blade whether it be Katana or Tanto is unnecessary. As one should always be treating these( bokken and bokutanto) like these are live blades to begin with, if that focus is there all the time, replacing them with live blades can lead to reckless endangerment. I agree that training with them can add a certain edge but why shake the devil's hand and say you are only kidding?

Matt Banks wrote:

Go to japan and train and you will see live knife training alot.
[QUOTE]

be careful who you say this too, I have been to Japan as my sensei before me, and his sensei before him, and His sensei too, an old man named Ueshiba, perhaps you have heard of him?

[QUOTE]Matt Banks wrote:

Who are you to say that it is ridiulous seeing as it was probably occuring before you were born.[QUOTE]

A) I am not writing Aikido law as you might think I am B) neither are you, by the way C) to write such blatant accusations as to my background or any other's background on a mere reflection of an opinion indeed reflects back upon you, in a way I am sure you do not want it to D) we walk separate paths to get to the same place which was the original intent of the post, E) who am I not to? I have just as much right to an idea as you or everyone else does in this F) slavery took place before I was born too, does this make it right?


and to quote another
"that's all I have to say about that"
-Forrest Gump

[/B]

Dan Hover
02-21-2001, 03:29 PM
Dan Hover wrote:
[QUOTE]Matt Banks wrote:
Dan Hover you said ''in whatever ridiculous context that we are discussing whether it be live blades on a test''. Testing with a live blade is not ridiculous, in the years Ive praticed im surprised at how so many people in this forum dont train in this way.

please allow me to indulge everyone as to the why of this: "Once for a demonstration with Saito Sensei - I think when I was about Sandan - I asked O sensei if I could use a live blade for our tantodori demonstration, but he rejected the idea. I think he has a clearer understanding of my real ability than I did at the time and knew it wouldnt be a good idea. A while later I did use a live blade at another demonstration that O sensei couldn't attend, and of course I injured myself. I felt so foolish, and it took injuring myself like that to figure out why he had denied my request the first time."

-Hiroshi Isoyama Hachidan

Now, if that rationale is good enough for him, I hope it works for us, who will probably only walk in the shadows of the greats. For obvious safety reasons I feel training with a live blade whether it be Katana or Tanto is unnecessary. As one should always be treating these( bokken and bokutanto) like these are live blades to begin with, if that focus is there all the time, replacing them with live blades can lead to reckless endangerment. I agree that training with them can add a certain edge but why shake the devil's hand and say you are only kidding?

Matt Banks wrote:

Go to japan and train and you will see live knife training alot.
[QUOTE]

be careful who you say this too, I have been to Japan as my sensei before me, and his sensei before him, and His sensei too, an old man named Ueshiba, perhaps you have heard of him?

[QUOTE]Matt Banks wrote:

Who are you to say that it is ridiulous seeing as it was probably occuring before you were born.[QUOTE]

A) I am not writing Aikido law as you might think I am B) neither are you, by the way C) to write such blatant accusations as to my background or any other's background on a mere reflection of an opinion indeed reflects back upon you, in a way I am sure you do not want it to D) we walk separate paths to get to the same place which was the original intent of the post, E) who am I not to? I have just as much right to an idea as you or everyone else does in this F) slavery took place before I was born too, does this make it right?


and to quote another
"that's all I have to say about that"
-Forrest Gump

[/B]

Dan Hover
02-21-2001, 03:31 PM
sorry sent the same thing in twice, oops a daisy

Jim23
02-21-2001, 03:36 PM
Dan,

How did you manage to do that to the text? Secret Aikido technique? ;)

Jim23

JJF
02-22-2001, 01:27 AM
Hi Dan!

I really liked your last post, and I agree to most of what you say. I myself would never use a live blade while practicing an Aikido technique. I agree as well, that we should try to think of of bokken and bokutanto as real blades while we're practicing to create the proper amount of respect towards the weapon and it's use.

However there is one situation in which I think a live blade could be a positive addition. The style of Aikido I practice involves a set of Aiki-toho (iaido-kata's) which are trained to build the right posture, develop the feeling of cutting and basically get an understanding of the sword. For a long time these kata's are best performed with a bokken, later on perhaps with an Iai-to (dull casted sword as opposed to a sharp forged katana), but finally - when the practicioner gets at bit up into the ranks - say 4 th. or 5. th dan - practicing with a live blade (shinken) could give that extra 'touch'. Actually i beleive it is demanded for gradings from 6 th. dan but I am not quite sure.

Last year I went to a seminar with a japanese sensei (6. dan aikido 4. or 5. dan Iaido) and he claimed that his shinken had been his best teacher ever.

I guess my point is, that while practicing Iaido - which is practiced alone - it can be all right to use a shinke once you have trained for a very long time, since you only put your own health on the line, but while practicing Aikido in a paired situation it is far to dangerous for both uke and tori, as it only takes one brief moment of lost attentione from just one of them to create a situation where both can be severely harmed.

Sorry about the length of this post.

Matt Banks
02-22-2001, 03:34 AM
Hi Jim I went on that site listed on the bottom of your post. Its good, did you create it, and if so how.


thanks



Matt Banks

Dan Hover
02-22-2001, 03:57 AM
I don't know how that happened, I looked normal on the box, but when I posted it looked like that, when I tried to edit it, I ended up inadvertantly sending it back in again, so...I can't take any credit for it.

andrew
02-22-2001, 04:55 AM
Well, using a live tanto for demonstration has no benefits. Using one for grading can. Like I already said, and that story about the sandan guy demostrating reinforces, you shouldn't use a live blade until your sensei thinks you're up to it.

andrew

Matt Banks
02-22-2001, 06:29 AM
Andrew I agree with you. Is your surname Medland?
Andrew Medland


serious question



Matt

Jim23
02-22-2001, 07:03 AM
Matt Banks wrote:
Hi Jim I went on that site listed on the bottom of your post. Its good, did you create it, and if so how.

thanks

Matt Banks

I'm making friends with Matt??

Will wonders never cease? ;)

Actually, I came across that site and image (animated gif - pronounced 'jiff' not 'giff' for those who don't know) while surfing. I take no credit for it, but it's the right style of aikido (site not image).

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 22, 2001 at 07:08am]

Magma
02-22-2001, 07:39 AM
Gif. As in "Gif me the pink elephant." Gif gif gif gif gif gif gif. ;) Only because Jim planted his flag... now I have to plant mine. I am the voice of wisdom here... and I command you all to pronounce all of your gif 'g''s as voiced glottal plosives rather than voiced lingua-palate fricatives.

Which is to say....

Gif gif gif gif gif gif gif gif.

Because that is the way O'Sensei pronounced it. :D

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

[Edited by Magma on February 22, 2001 at 07:42am]

Jim23
02-22-2001, 07:46 AM
Yes, most people think it's 'Gif' (I knew I'd get someone answering this - sorry Dan), however, read the following article.

----
Gif or Jif? that is the question

Interesting how people in the audience like to make comments, and as a seasoned speaker, I always like to keep the presentation rolling in the face of adversity. On this occasion a person in the audience corrected my pronunciation of "GIF" using the 'J' sound (Jiffy), and corrected me saying, no, it's "GIF" as in 'gift' using the hard 'G'. Another from the audience spoke up saying, "No, I happen to know the developers, and they pronounce it using the "J" sound."

Of course wanting to move along with the presentation and ward off any further interruptions, I smoothed it over saying both are acceptable. The incident was quickly forgotten. Until this past August.

During the Macworld Boston seminar with Robin Williams, I referred to GIF files using my usual J sound, and was corrected by Robin. "No, Fred it's pronounced like 'Gift' with a hard 'G'. Once again, wanting to move along, I didn't argue. However when I returned from Boston I became obsessed with finding out which is actually correct.

Several hours on the web led me to the Cnet site which professes that BOTH pronunciations are correct, echoed by the Compuserve site which also endorsed both.

This didn't suit me. I knew there is an answer. Finally I found a reference to the original development team with names. I keyed the names into all of the internet look-up databases I could find. According to the reference, Steve Wilhite was the original team leader, and there were maybe a half dozen email addresses for Mr. Wilhite. All of which were returned addressee unknown. Several others were reached and all said "JIF" was the word used. One person volunteered that it was JIF because the graphics load in a jiffy. But still no definitive word.

Last month Adam Engst's "NetBits" newsletter posed the same question, "Is it GIF or JIF?" and I wrote to tell my story. They did not print my response, however the editor did take the challenge and succeed where I did not. In a later edition the blurb: "It's 'Jiff' and I Don't Want to Hear Another Word" wherein they relate mail from Charlie Reading who worked with the creator of GIF, Steve Wilhite. Charlie reported that Steve pronounced it "jiff", spinning off of a historically popular peanut butter commercial.

My applause and thanks go out to the editors of NetBits newsletter, for persevering and digging to the bottom of the debate.

Folks, it's "JIF" -- thank you.
---

Jim23

Dan Hover
02-22-2001, 07:57 AM
well thank god we got that cleared up, I sensed that that debate could go on forever, with many a nasty innuendo about someones legitimate computer credentials. "had they ever met Bill Gates?" do they have the MSCII ceritfication? Hell that guy must have a atari 2600 or something to say something that stupid. How ridiculous to have AOL use the remebered password feature as everyone knows about firewalls....

Tongue planted firmly in cheek

cbrf4zr2
02-22-2001, 07:59 AM
Maybe it's a regional thing, because with all the graphics guys (or is that pronounced "jraphic juys") I've worked with, and programmers, and developers over the past 8 years, I have never heard it pronounced with a j sound. And I'm guessing that number of people would be well over 100, and we aren't just talking porn surfers either.

Of course we could end that confusion by just using jay-peg files...or is that gay-pegs...I don't know.

Jim23
02-22-2001, 08:21 AM
Yep, everyone I know says 'Gif', so I suppose it has evolved to 'Gif'. But it started out as 'Jif'.

Everyone's getting so nice. Pity you guys can't punch - JOKE!! 'Goke?';)

Jim23

Magma
02-22-2001, 08:22 AM
One person volunteered that it was JIF because the graphics load in a jiffy.

That's a great reason. Let's all use that reason. I think you missed my sarcasm of having OSensei say it gif, because just as that doesn't matter, so, too does your quote third hand knowledge of what the creator of the format said matter for nothing. (But OSensei DID say it "gif"... I was there. He threw this Wilwhite guy around the room for a while until that guy, too, decided he would say "gif.) I don't care what the creator of the format called it, the extension has gone into public domain and into common parlance. Do we say "inny", or "i-n-i"? Whatever you want. All you can handle, bro. "Ex-ey" or "e-x-e"? Whatever floats your boat.

Besides, I can just see the first person to ever utter "What's up?" clamoring for attention on a website espousing that the correct pronunciation is not "Wassup?" or the insidious "Wazzzzzup?" ("Protect Your Children from the addictive slang pronunciations!" the site would proclaim.)

Saying that because the first person pronounced it "jiff" (which I am dubious of), and that therefore we should all follow suit is like saying that you can't end an English sentence with a preposition. (That's a hold over from Latin, and not an actual English rule... but we follow it because Latin is older and that's the way it was done first.)

Jim, I also wonder about your motives in your initial flag-planting. Laying down instruction in a non-verbal forum for oral pronunciation and communication, setting yourself up as the authority or the master of this dictum, and then waiting for the response you knew you were going to get when you initially went FISHING. I don't believe that you typed up that article between my post and when it appeared in the forum - not in that short of time. Your response was immediate. I think you already had it typed up and were just waiting to drop it when you got your first argument against you. And you wonder why people have a negative reaction to your posts...

My feeling - understanding is more important than absolute correctness. Which is not to say that we should eschew seeking to speak correctly. Rather, words will have different pronunciations coming from people of different regions, and so there will be many different "corrects". Perhaps both gif and jiff are correct, though I have never heard anyone I know (midwest) call it a "jiff."

Strategery.:D

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Jim23
02-22-2001, 08:44 AM
[i]Magma wrote:
Jim, I also wonder about your motives in your initial flag-planting. ... and then waiting for the response you knew you were going to get when you initially went FISHING. I don't believe that you typed up that article between my post and when it appeared in the forum - not in that short of time. Your response was immediate. I think you already had it typed up and were just waiting to drop it when you got your first argument against you. And you wonder why people have a negative reaction to your posts...
[/B]

Of course I had it "saved" on my computer, however, I didn't expect an "argument" over something so trivial. Let's not go overboard here.

Back to work now (me).

Jim23

Magma
02-22-2001, 09:25 AM
Magma wrote, in the thread, "What is the purpose of this forum?":
It seems you enjoy provoking people for the sake of argument, while trivializing the argument itself so that they seem petty for responding.


Jim23 wrote:
I knew I'd get someone answering this - sorry Dan
Jim23


Jim23 wrote:
Of course I had it "saved" on my computer, however, I didn't expect an "argument" over something so trivial.
Jim23

[Edited by Magma on February 22, 2001 at 09:33am]

Kenn
02-22-2001, 03:03 PM
Jim23 wrote:
Everyone's getting so nice. Pity you guys can't punch Jim23 [/B]

jim,

what the heck, gosh darn you. I'll bet you didn't know the reason we study Aikido is........

and that Atemi are wonderful strikes and....

just my warped little humorous antidote, please igonre if not into stupid, obvious humor.

Peace, Kenn

Kenn
02-22-2001, 03:28 PM
Magma wrote:

One person volunteered that it was JIF because the graphics load in a jiffy.

That's a great reason. Let's all use that reason. I think you missed my sarcasm of having OSensei say it gif, because just as that doesn't matter, so, too does your quote third hand knowledge of what the creator of the format said matter for nothing. (But OSensei DID say it "gif"... I was there. He threw this Wilwhite guy around the room for a while until that guy, too, decided he would say "gif.) I don't care what the creator of the format called it, the extension has gone into public domain and into common parlance. Do we say "inny", or "i-n-i"? Whatever you want. All you can handle, bro. "Ex-ey" or "e-x-e"? Whatever floats your boat.

Besides, I can just see the first person to ever utter "What's up?" clamoring for attention on a website espousing that the correct pronunciation is not "Wassup?" or the insidious "Wazzzzzup?" ("Protect Your Children from the addictive slang pronunciations!" the site would proclaim.)

Saying that because the first person pronounced it "jiff" (which I am dubious of), and that therefore we should all follow suit is like saying that you can't end an English sentence with a preposition. (That's a hold over from Latin, and not an actual English rule... but we follow it because Latin is older and that's the way it was done first.)

Jim, I also wonder about your motives in your initial flag-planting. Laying down instruction in a non-verbal forum for oral pronunciation and communication, setting yourself up as the authority or the master of this dictum, and then waiting for the response you knew you were going to get when you initially went FISHING. I don't believe that you typed up that article between my post and when it appeared in the forum - not in that short of time. Your response was immediate. I think you already had it typed up and were just waiting to drop it when you got your first argument against you. And you wonder why people have a negative reaction to your posts...

My feeling - understanding is more important than absolute correctness. Which is not to say that we should eschew seeking to speak correctly. Rather, words will have different pronunciations coming from people of different regions, and so there will be many different "corrects". Perhaps both gif and jiff are correct, though I have never heard anyone I know (midwest) call it a "jiff."

Strategery.:D

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Geeze Tim,

You do take yourself a bit seriously don't you? You don't seem to be blending very well with Jim, for like trying force against force....no very Aiki

lol, all I'm saying is lighten up a bit, or not....

Peace, Kenn

Jim23
02-22-2001, 04:05 PM
Majma,

After that post I was actually considering changing my name to Gim23.

Jim23

cbrf4zr2
02-22-2001, 04:25 PM
Kenn,

If you knew Tim like I know Tim...I don't mean it that way. Sick b*******! I've known him since I was 7, and he got me into Aikido - finally. (see "what brought you to aikido" thread)
It's all in good fun, although he is trying to get a point across.

Jim23
02-22-2001, 04:55 PM
cbrf4zr2 wrote:
Kenn,

If you knew Tim like I know Tim...I don't mean it that way. Sick b*******! I've known him since I was 7, and he got me into Aikido - finally. (see "what brought you to aikido" thread)
It's all in good fun, although he is trying to get a point across.

Ed,

Look, whatever their intention, some people here take things, and themselves too seriously, even Tim (hi Tim) and you (hi Ed) and Chris (hi Chris) and Matt (hi Matt).

Relax. Life is too short!!

Are aikidokas really that insecure and touchy? Yes touchy.

For heaven's sake, lighten up and don't take yourselves so seriously. Just take me seriously. :)

Gim23

Dan Hover
02-22-2001, 07:13 PM
it sometimes truly amazes me how fast this can spiral to debating the sheer minutiae of the truly inconsequential.

kgh
02-23-2001, 12:32 AM
Starting to sound like the Web Development forum on e-budo in here.....

<runs and hides>

Magma
02-23-2001, 07:51 AM
How is it that when my point is that I disagree with Jim's narrow interpretation of something and I explain (humorously, I thought) a wider interpretation, I am the one getting branded as stuck on minutae?

Look, people, conversation is conversation. It's going to go where it goes. If you don't like what we're talking about you don't have to post, you don't have to read it. Anyone can start a new thread on this site.

Jim stated something, I disagreed and stated my point. Issue over.

BTW, Jim ... "Gim23"... v. funny.:D

...Or I could just be talking.

Tim

Jim23
02-23-2001, 11:19 AM
Magma wrote:
Jim stated something, I disagreed and stated my point. Issue over.


Cool. I'm actually not even angry at any of the above mentioned people. Cause Matt's my friend now (bodyguard?). ;)

Games23

Steve Speicher
02-23-2001, 12:28 PM
I'm just posting some frivolous comments on what I consider a frivolous thread. :D

Well, first off I think it's funny that when someone has a post consisting of more than a few lines, it is automatically assumed that they take themselves and life too seriously. I think in reality, some people are just good typers and articulate enough to write a lengthy post without terribly much effort.

Also, I feel aikido is a topic to be approached very seriously, seeing as it gives individuals the power to kill or cause serious injury with their hands if they so desire. However, serious topics don't mean fun can't occur. Or practice can't be full of joy and goodtimes. Taking things seriously doesn't mean you aren't having fun and enjoying yourself.

What I'm getting at, is having a serious attitude is a byproduct of being focused.. something O Sensei stressed the importance of.

Jim23
02-23-2001, 01:05 PM
I have a serious question. What's a typer? ;)

It's Friday.

Gimmy23

skeet_master
02-24-2001, 08:22 PM
this is a tad disappointing...

I came into this thread seeing it has 52 replies and thinking "wow this must be pretty interesting" and alas... half of them are about pronouncing acronyms and who called who what...

I hope you guys are happy.

Magma
02-26-2001, 06:58 AM
<<with all of the blissfully ignorant gratitude of a Monty Python skit>>

Oh, yes. Quite happy. Thank you.:D

Steve Speicher
02-26-2001, 08:45 AM
typer = hip slang for typist

sorry for the disappointment skeet, hope it didn't ruin your day!!!!

peace,

skeet_master
02-26-2001, 02:20 PM
Thanks,

I'll get over it... Just - and this is to everyone - use some forethought before typing. Just as in the real world we should think before opening our mouths, people online should think before sliding their fingers across a keyboard. I have noticed this rule tends to be forgotten online...

-Ethan

Kenn
02-26-2001, 04:18 PM
skeet_master wrote:
Thanks,

I'll get over it... Just - and this is to everyone - use some forethought before typing. Just as in the real world we should think before opening our mouths, people online should think before sliding their fingers across a keyboard. I have noticed this rule tends to be forgotten online...

-Ethan

Hey Ethan,

Get over yourself, and try not to take life so seriously. It'll make it much easier on you and those around you.

Peace, Kenn

Jim23
02-26-2001, 06:53 PM
Steve Speicher wrote:
typer = hip slang for typist


You got it! you got it! (didn't I just say that?)

Golly gosh, people are sooo smart here.

I'm a typeroligist.

Jim23