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Sue Trinidad
06-08-2004, 05:28 PM
Thanks in advance for your patience with another newbie question.

I don't know whether tapping out means "yeah, that's the technique, nice job" or "quit it, that hurts." Or--maybe those two things are the same? :confused:

The corollary question, then: as nage, do I keep working the hold or pin until uke taps out? Or does that mean I've gone farther than I need to?

Brehan Crawford
06-08-2004, 05:43 PM
I imagine this is something that varies in dojo-to-dojo culture.

But where I train, we breathe out, relax, and accept the pin to a degree of mild discomfort so as to receive the stretch. When it becomes painful we tap, and nage lets up gently.

Janet Rosen
06-08-2004, 06:00 PM
The tap means "stop." As such, it can be used to mean a variety of things.
If the purpose of a pin is to control, then pain or discomfort is not the primary issue; "can I move/get up/do I even want to try?" is the issue. A really good pin is one that has me nailed, immobilized, knowing there's not any point in trying to get up, AND not feeling any pain so long as I'm relaxed and still. At that point, I'll tap because the technique was successfully done, and if I don't tap we will sit there all day.
If I'm in real pain, I'll tap right away, but I may tell my partner that it was only because of pain compliance, not being truly pinned.
Optimally, things are as Brehan describes: I'm immobilized, but the pin is being applied slowly enough for me to get a gooooood stretch and tap when it's enough of one.

Brehan Crawford
06-08-2004, 06:20 PM
That's a good point about immobilization, Janet. If I'm able to get out of the pin I won't tap, and in some cases there is no pain or discomfort from the pin, but I'm still not able to move, so I'd tap then too.

Jordan Steele
06-08-2004, 06:51 PM
Tap out before you pass out or when you feel you have lost. Nobody is going to let you tap out in real life, so keep a martial spirit on the ground and respect nage by tapping out if he/she performs the technique properly, but keep an open mind.

Sue Trinidad
06-08-2004, 07:36 PM
The tap means "stop." As such, it can be used to mean a variety of things.
If the purpose of a pin is to control, then pain or discomfort is not the primary issue; "can I move/get up/do I even want to try?" is the issue. A really good pin is one that has me nailed, immobilized, knowing there's not any point in trying to get up, AND not feeling any pain so long as I'm relaxed and still. At that point, I'll tap because the technique was successfully done, and if I don't tap we will sit there all day.
If I'm in real pain, I'll tap right away, but I may tell my partner that it was only because of pain compliance, not being truly pinned.
Optimally, things are as Brehan describes: I'm immobilized, but the pin is being applied slowly enough for me to get a gooooood stretch and tap when it's enough of one.

This is exactly the info I needed. Thank you!

When tapping out was first explained to me by one of the sempai, she just said, "You can always tap out if it hurts"--which I think I misinterpreted to mean that was the only thing it meant.

Sue

gilsinnj
06-08-2004, 09:17 PM
What you all have said is correct.

The problem is that a lot of Aikido dojo's don't practice this way. Some of the dojo's that I've visited make this big show of tapping out and making their Sempai or partner look like they are really hurting them, but they really aren't doing that much.

ruthmc
06-09-2004, 08:51 AM
As uke, it depends upon how stiff or flexible your joints are. If you're stiff, tap out when it hurts. If you're flexible, tap out just before it hurts. This will help you to avoid injury.

As nage / tori, try to develop some sensitivity towards your partner's arm. As you feel their muscles start to tense, you know they are close to tapping, so slow your pin and get ready to stop. It's kind of like approaching a junction when driving :-) This way you won't cause your training partners an an injury.

(This advice is intended for newbie students to ensure they keep training safely!)

Happy training!

Ruth

Ron Tisdale
06-09-2004, 09:35 AM
I'm with Ruth...I've been told by senior aikidoka that people often wait way too long to tap out, ending up with badly injured shoulders later on. It seems to especially happen to young studs who refuse to tap out unless in severe discomfort. Surprisingly, I hear this even from people like Robert Mustard Sensei...one of the real tough guys in the yoshinkan. You'd think he'd be as gung ho as anybody, but he was quite clear about problems he now has after years of abuse to the shoulder joints. I think he would view a lot of that abuse as un-necessary now.

That said, there are different standards of tapping for different dojo, as has been mentioned before. In Daito ryu, the tapping lets shite know that the technique is being strongly applied, but not necessarily to stop. The tapping there tends to be very emphatic, and in my yoshinkan training we've often been told to make sure we tap loudly enough so that the message is clear to shite. In some other places I've trained, its just a drumming of fingers on the mat. Different strokes...when in Rome...and about a hundred other cliches I can't think of right now...

Ron

MaryKaye
06-09-2004, 10:39 AM
The one that's unclear to me is when uke is stiff enough that he wants to tap out before the pin is actually established. Should nage look for a non-painful way to ease uke into the pin, or just stop at the tap? This seems to come up the most with sankyo--we have aa lot of older students (including me) whose wrists are very sensitive to sankyo, and sometimes you can't even get to the sankyo pin because the intermediate steps are already painful.

I tend to be macho about ikkyo and nikyo, and have been warned that if you're going to do so, your arm must *always* be bent--never let nage apply a lot of force to a straight arm. I feel I learned a lot about the pin mechanics from one wriggly teenage partner who never, ever let a pin go untested. The culmination of our practice together, after I had tried wriggling out of a few of his, was having him show off a fancy pin where he captured both my arms and then sat on me, waiting for me to figure out how to tap with no hands!

Mary Kaye

Ron Tisdale
06-09-2004, 10:50 AM
:) With your feet!

In your first scenario, I try to go really slowly but with good control. Sometimes works, and uke gets a nice safe stretch...sometimes doesn't work at all. Oh well...

Ron

Janet Rosen
06-09-2004, 02:01 PM
The one that's unclear to me is when uke is stiff enough that he wants to tap out before the pin is actually established. Should nage look for a non-painful way to ease uke into the pin, or just stop at the tap?
To me tap means stop. Period. It HAS to or it is meaningless as a safety signal.
After releasing, it may be appropriate to discuss with uke the stiffness issue or refer it to the instructor, depending on dojo/individuals.
But I do try to keep in mind that, while I am responsible to not harm my partner, I'm not responsible for my partner's training.

paw
06-09-2004, 02:10 PM
Tap early, tap often ---- bjj maxim

jxa127
06-09-2004, 02:42 PM
One of the funniest things I ever read on the internet was when somebody posted a question along the lines of, "How do you get out of a (some complicated name) choke?"

Somebody else answered, "I'd tap." :D

Anyway, at my dojo, we tap after we've tested a pin and found it solid. We'll also tap if in pain, but our overall philosophy is that pins shouldn't hurt that much, but they should immobilize and/or prevent further attack.

Right now, I've got an injured shoulder that is probably 80% back to normal (even after physical therapy). I tap "early and often" to protect that shoulder. I do so even though the guys I train with know about my injury. I've found that people generally forget instructions like "go easy on my right shoulder." My tapping helps remind them.

Regards,

Sue Trinidad
06-09-2004, 10:17 PM
Maybe I am oversimplifying, but tapping out = "uncle" seems like the rule (given, naturally, that nage is doing his/her aiki best not to hurt uke).

ruthmc
06-10-2004, 02:49 AM
This seems to come up the most with sankyo--we have aa lot of older students (including me) whose wrists are very sensitive to sankyo, and sometimes you can't even get to the sankyo pin because the intermediate steps are already painful.
Mary Kaye

If this happens to me (as nage), I release the twist on the wrist enough to stop the pain yet maintain the control, then apply the pin as usual.

It's all about sensitivity.

During my Shiatsu practitioner training I learned how to detect tension in the different muscles of a limb while moving and stretching that limb. It's something anybody can learn! And of course it has immediate application to Aikido :)

Ruth