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Dajo251
02-16-2001, 03:14 PM
First and formost I would like to say that I have been doing aikido for two years. I recently visited a friend of mines kempo school I did not participate in their class but after my friend and I worked out for a while(he also has done aikido). I came to the realization that neither of us had been taught any techniques to defend from kicks. I am looking for a quick answer to 2 main questions...
1. I am sure there are techniques to defend kicks but in the 2 dojos I have trained at neither of them taught these techniques. Why is this?(this I guess is a question directed more twords the instructers)
2.How effective would these techniques realy be against some one who truely knows how to kick?

I thank you all who are putting imput into this
Dan Hulley

DiNalt
02-16-2001, 03:52 PM
Side kicks are obvious - turn toward the kick while facing it, like the beginning of a yokomen block.

Front kicks, I suppose, just step off the line.

Low kicks , um, hit him in the face before he does it ?

Dajo251 wrote:
First and formost I would like to say that I have been doing aikido for two years. I recently visited a friend of mines kempo school I did not participate in their class but after my friend and I worked out for a while(he also has done aikido). I came to the realization that neither of us had been taught any techniques to defend from kicks. I am looking for a quick answer to 2 main questions...
1. I am sure there are techniques to defend kicks but in the 2 dojos I have trained at neither of them taught these techniques. Why is this?(this I guess is a question directed more twords the instructers)
2.How effective would these techniques realy be against some one who truely knows how to kick?

I thank you all who are putting imput into this
Dan Hulley

mornmd
02-17-2001, 02:22 AM
The training against kicks starts at an early phase (I know this because I have been learning it for the past year). Lower cross hand blocks from several different positions are done. There are also various methods to step off line, parry and break the opponents balance. Maintaining Ma ai will also be effective. Most instances of fighting will not occur with a kickboxer either.

My Sensei once showed me how for many of the kicks done in the striking arts like TKD, the attacker often goes into an unstable position immediately before the kick. This can also be taken advantage of.

For more on Nihon Goshin, see that thread or visit Sensei Walter Kopitov's website.

Matthew

joan
02-17-2001, 11:02 AM
I think that aikido-type moves (blend, redirect) work as well against someone who really knows how to kick as well as someone who really knows how to punch. The ukemi for a kick is a lot more difficult, with more potential for injury early on--we study kicks only very rarely (like once or twice every few years) probably for this reason, plus there's so much more "standard" stuff to work on.

Joan

lt-rentaroo
02-17-2001, 11:49 AM
Hello,

Our testing requirements dictate that the student must be able to demonstrate at least three different defenses from three different types of kicks (front kick, side kick, and round-house kick; three different defenses from each one). So, naturally we teach these methods of defense. Front kicks are the most simple, you can "steal" uke's balance very easily as they raise their knee up to kick, the same can be said for a side kick. A few of the defenses involve performing a kotegaeshi like technique on uke's foot, however most of the defenses mainly involve the taking of uke's balance and "plopping" them on their backsides. Hope I've helped

Jim23
02-17-2001, 01:17 PM
lt-rentaroo wrote:
... the defenses mainly involve the taking of uke's balance and "plopping" them on their backsides.


I agree.

Question. Is using the "lower cross hand block" really aikido anyway? Sounds like force against force to me.

Another question. What if the first kick is a fake? What I found worked very well was to fake a fairly low front kick, not too fast (or slow) to bring the arm(s) down, then to quickly change to a roundhouse kick to the side of the head, or even to a hook kick to the other side of the head. If you're fast, it usually works like a charm.

Jim23

Sid
02-17-2001, 01:26 PM
At my aikido dojo, I and my training group regularly ask our sensei about all the weird attacks : ie. not-standard stuff. We do at least 2 kicks a lesson. Look at it this way - when uke kicks, he is off balnce. A gentle irimi-nage usually does the trick.

Sid

lt-rentaroo
02-17-2001, 05:01 PM
Jim,

Ah, the old low front kick fake. Well, I admit that it works pretty good, done it myself a few times while sparring in TKD. One of the things I've gained from my sparring experience is the ability to judge (I don't like to use "sense", it's a little too sci-fi for me) whether or not the attack is meant to be a fake or not. This of course takes lots of practice and timing is everything. When the uke attacks using a round-house kick, I recommend entering toward the "belly-button" side of uke and at the same time it's important to use your (nage) hands to protect from any punches the uke might try. You can very easily take the uke off balance with a slight entering movement, similar to an iriminage. Well just an idea, take it for what it's worth.

Jim23
02-17-2001, 05:24 PM
lt-rentaroo wrote:

at the same time it's important to use your (nage) hands to protect from any punches the uke might try.
Absolutely! The punches will definitely be next, or at least a grab or something.

Another good move (if you are quick and if you anticipate the fake), is to move to the outside (back) of the roundhouse while blocking the kick in the direction it's already moving in (these blocks are fairly easy - so to speak - as they're not strength against strenght). Then do your stuff, whatever that might be. You'll have your opponent's back in front of you at that point.

Jim23

lt-rentaroo
02-17-2001, 07:29 PM
Jim,

Yes, that type of redirection works well against a round-house kick. I must say though, the timing must be just right otherwise you (nage) might take a kick to the head or ribs, etc. I prefer to use that type of body movement against a front or side kick, there is more room for your timing to be slightly off and still not get kicked.

An example of this type of body movement against a front kick would go like this. If uke kicks with his/her right leg, nage should enter to the left and redirect uke's kick with the right hand (don't forget to use your left hand to guard against a punch). Nage should end up in a positon behind uke and if nage's timing is right he/she should be able to grab uke's shoulders (from behind) and plop them on their arse. I've taught this technique many times because it's easy to do and works well. If performed quickly, uke only has one leg on the ground when nage grabs the shoulders, so as you can imagine uke does not have what would be considered optimal balance (especially since they will most likely be pivoted slightly after nage redirects the kick). Anyways it's just an idea, take it for what it's worth.

Jim23
02-17-2001, 08:01 PM
Louis,

Right on. If the roundhouse kick is to the head, dropping a bit below it also helps, or even sidestepping it while it is being delivered (sometimes possible if you see the setup from the front fake).

This also works quite well with punches. If someone comes at you with a wild swinging punch with their right hand (more of a boxing style), wait for the punch to already be travelling towards your face (height already established), then stepping forward, to the left, while dropping down (bent knees), redirect their punch with your left hand while punching forward to their arm/armpit/face while their force is coming at you. Very effective as they run into your punch.

But, it's not aikido. Maybe just an open hand to hit them off balance.

Jim23

lt-rentaroo
02-17-2001, 10:34 PM
Jim,

Actually, the technique you describe against a boxing type punch (very similar to a Yokomenuchi in Aikido, or what I refer to as a "John Wayne" punch) is almost the same as a Sumiotoshi or "Corner drop throw" in Aikido. For the sake of argument here, not all Aikido dojo refer to this type of defense as Sumiotoshi; so I'm asking everyone on the forum not to respond by saying that I've described the wrong technique as I realize that your particular dojo/organization may use different terminology. The nage would enter into the direction of the punch just as you describe, but instead of using the other hand to deliver a strike, the nage would use his/her other hand to apply downward pressure on uke's elbow, taking him/her off balance and plopping them on the ground. Of course, timing is again everything with respect to this technique. It's just an idea, take it for what it's worth.

Matt Banks
02-18-2001, 05:29 AM
im surprised to hear this. Where train we do defence from kicks alomst every lesson, especially in waza's. I think aikido is very good at ''taking out kickers'' by using irimi, to get inside there attacking range.





Matt Banks

Matt Banks
02-18-2001, 05:39 AM
Jim23 I have to say it. You havent got a clue. Saying a block isnt aikido as its using force with force. Never seen the blocls we irimi. It seems to me your understanding of aikido is very very minimal by your comments, but still yo act like you know all about it. I wish you would, stop writing rubbish on this forum as nothing is gained. And no one ever listens to you, or gains anything from what you have to say. Go train in a good hard school of aikido, and then come and contribute something. The other non aiki people on this forum i have always respected for what they have to contribute, but I dont fell the same way about you.



Matt Banks

Jim23
02-18-2001, 10:20 AM
Matt Banks wrote:
Jim23 I have to say it. You havent got a clue. Saying a block isnt aikido as its using force with force.

I was just questioning what I was told wasn't done in aikido, meaning force opposing force. The rest I'll ignore.

By the way, ever heard of spellcheck?

Jim23

Jim23
02-18-2001, 10:39 AM
Oh Matt,

I just realized why you're upset with me. It was said in jest (different thread) - I thought that was obvious.

Jim23

[Edited by Jim23 on February 18, 2001 at 06:27pm]

Brian H
02-18-2001, 10:47 AM
The defense for most kicks is very much the same as defending against low sword cuts (If you can kick over the top of your head like a shomen sword cut then you are "unique") Nage can easily control the distance to uke by steping. The knees and hips are much more powerful than the shoulder and elbow, hence the danger of a well placed kick, but the are no where near as versitle. I have occasionally practised kicking techniques on the mat and I will report that you spend a lot to time on the ground as uke. It does not take as much "aikido" as you would think to take uke balance when he by necessity off balance to kick (100% of weight on one foot). Picture virtually any classic aikido techique and apply it to this big rigid low-slung arm/leg and boom uke is on his back very fast. Take great care because rolling and falling are difficult.

Jim23
02-18-2001, 11:04 AM
Sarge, (can I call you that?)

I agree with what you said for committed kicks (and punches) and that's great for using "on the street". Does the same apply with experienced kickers, fake kicks, changing direction, etc.

Jim23

Erik
02-18-2001, 03:57 PM
Jim23 wrote:
But, it's not aikido. Maybe just an open hand to hit them off balance.


Jim, be careful when you define what is and isn't Aikido. There may be a time when it's perfectly good Aikido to lay someone out, block or whatever else, including significant injury or worse. As others here have pointed out before, loving protection includes not only the attacker but yourself and others.

At the dojo I'm currently at, a student was killed a number of years ago and it involved a struggle as I understand it (before my time). My instructor made the point that if she had gouged her attackers eye's out, done any number of heinous things to him and lived we'd have been thrilled because she would still be alive and practicing. I've never been with an instructor who hypothesized otherwise, nor, would I likely stay with one.

I'm not saying it's perfect philosophical Aikido, nor what I want to practice regularly, but I sure wouldn't call it bad Aikido if it saved someone's life. You use what you've got from where you are and make the best of it.

lt-rentaroo
02-18-2001, 04:59 PM
Hello everyone,

Pardon me while I digress a moment. You know what just drives me nuts? Of course you don't because I'm sure I've never told any of you guys and gals. Well I'll tell you. What drives me nuts is when someone replies to a reply that someone else wrote and for no real beneficial reason sees fit to comment on their choice of words or how they refer to what is and what isn't Aikido or whether or not they know a darn thing about Aikido. None of that has anything to do with the original question that was posted (and yes, neither does this reply). Jim made some good suggestions about how to deal with kicks, so what if he said something might not be Aikido. Why can't we respond to the original question and not try to belittle someone else's replies?

Yes, Jim is a new guy to Aikido (my understanding is that he has just started taking classes). So what if he's not entirely accurate with his posts. I'd bet that most of the stuff he's read about or learned about concerning Aikido has come from Aikiweb forums and articles. If anyone is to blame for his lack of knowledge it would all of the more experienced Aikido students who would rather criticize what he writes than explain the correct terms or philosophy or whatever. And it's not just Jim, others have made suggestions or introduced ideas and have received less than polite responses. How about we all try to remember what it was like when we first started training in Aikido and how stupid we all were; give the new guys a break.

I realize that I'm opening myself up to a whole slew of comments, so I'd like to add that this post was not directed at anyone in particular, just the readers of the forum in general.

Jim23
02-18-2001, 05:03 PM
Sorry Erik, I wasn't trying to define what aikido was or wasn't, I was simply expressing what I thought was repeatedly told to me (the force issue).

Jim23

Chocolateuke
02-18-2001, 05:19 PM
people people order order Aikido is not just the spin and throw Aikido is about changing to your envirment that is why o-sensi says that Aikido is ever changing. grougin someones eye out in self denfence could be aikido. yes you hurt the person and yes you lack controll but you have adapted and flowed with what the guy deserved. to me Aikido is about giving what the uke seemes to want if you want to resist fine use more movement.. Aikido is not just about the throwing but also the intent of what you are doing it for. if you use a shionaga because some person called you stupit that is not aikido nor if you are just showing off. ( it took me a while to not show off but i am under controll now!!) Aikido is what youmake it. I have been in Aikido for 4 years no I dont know everything nor most anything but this is one of the things it can be.

yes I have heard of spell checker but never fancied it!!

Jim23
02-18-2001, 05:26 PM
Louis,

Many thanks for your support, as I'm not very accustomed to that here in this forum.

I find that many people here are very short-tempered and defensive (and frankly, it doesn't matter whether they are right or wrong).

Luckily, there are still a few decent people like you out there.

Jim23

Jim23
02-18-2001, 05:28 PM
Chocolateuke wrote:

yes I have heard of spell checker but never fancied it!!

What? Have you changed your name or is this another misplaced post?

Jim23

Erik
02-18-2001, 10:35 PM
Jim23 wrote:
Sorry Erik, I wasn't trying to define what aikido was or wasn't, I was simply expressing what I thought was repeatedly told to me (the force issue).


I'm aware of that and don't be sorry about it, at least with me. I wasn't even really reacting to your post, nor trying to get up on a high horse (at least this time) as the post may have implied. Rather, I was just trying to make a point which has been made to me many times and trying to do it in a different manner than someone else in this thread. Sans that post I'd have stayed quiet.

Sam
02-19-2001, 07:52 AM
On a technical note, feints don't really work if you are willing to commit yourself. The low front faint should be treated like a real kick and you should enter alongside (or 'slip' it) into hanmi posture and then execute technique. the second second kick (like a high kick) will be ineffective as the range will then be too close, but it will definitely catch you if you hesitate or are not fast enough (this gives time for the kicker to make distance). This is the importance of good footwork I guess.

ian
02-22-2001, 11:42 AM
The thing with a feint is that it doesn't necessarily mean you're even going to kick them; usually the opposite so you feint a kick then elbow or punch them (which is serious if you've just rushed into range).

What I'm slowly beginning to realise is that it is no sense dealing with 'a kick' or 'a punch' or 'a grab' they are all generally far too fast for you to snatch out the air. What we're really doing is dealing with their body;

punches reveal vital areas and allow you to unblance them, kicks are even easier. Whether you take someone down from a feint depends whether they have actually displaced their body (hips or balance/centre of gravity) to initiate this.


N.B. if they don't commit a punch it is hard to unbalance them because they are pretty stable and you have to force them over (or hope they just like leaving their arm out for an application). I think atemis/strikes/more aggressive entering are the best ways to deal with this and hope they don't do aikido! If they don't give you any yin you can't reply with yang.

I don't see any easy answers.

Ian

Jim23
02-22-2001, 05:28 PM
ian wrote:
The thing with a feint is that it doesn't necessarily mean you're even going to kick them; usually the opposite so you feint a kick then elbow or punch them (which is serious if you've just rushed into range).

What I'm slowly beginning to realise is that it is no sense dealing with 'a kick' or 'a punch' or 'a grab' they are all generally far too fast for you to snatch out the air. What we're really doing is dealing with their body;

punches reveal vital areas and allow you to unblance them, kicks are even easier. Whether you take someone down from a feint depends whether they have actually displaced their body (hips or balance/centre of gravity) to initiate this.


N.B. if they don't commit a punch it is hard to unbalance them because they are pretty stable and you have to force them over (or hope they just like leaving their arm out for an application). I think atemis/strikes/more aggressive entering are the best ways to deal with this and hope they don't do aikido! If they don't give you any yin you can't reply with yang.

I don't see any easy answers.

Ian

Now I agree with this.

I've known guys who could do amazing things while on one foot. Go for the body as a whole and grab what you can, redirect, etc.

I've also seen guys who could fold a sand-filled kickbag in half, while maintaining balance.

Now, if someone on the street attacks - different story.

Jim23

Brian H
02-25-2001, 06:56 AM
When you get hit by a feint, does it hurt? One man's feint is another man's clean miss.

Jimro
02-25-2001, 12:38 PM
Hello again everybody,

Getting back to defense against kicks I'd like to point out a few other attacks that are not normal.

Shooting the legs. Anyone who has ever sparred a wrestler on his/her terms knows what I'm talking about. I realize this is a grappling attack but I've yet to discover a method of defending against someone shooting my legs other than my knee in their face. (which I can't do during a friendly sparring match, much to my dismay)

Inside snap kicks. These hurt. Watch out for a quick snap kick to the inside of the thigh when your opponent advances or retreats. These kicks won't drop you but they will wear you down eventually.

Outside snap kicks aimed at the sciotic nerve. You may think this kick is a feint because it isn't aimed at the knee or the floating ribs. When I asked my kempo instructor to go full strength on the target area (I didn't believe him when he said it would drop me), it dropped me. Leg went numb and I lay on the floor for 5 minutes while others learned from my lesson.

Now in a real fight people get hurt. As it was explained to me once, "Choose where you let your opponent hit you, and you choose where you hit your opponent." If an opponent is willing to kick my leg and let himself inside my range for a bone break or joint lock, I'll take a bruised thigh and he'll wear a cast. I know my attitude isn't very "aikido" but I won't be taking lessons until the end of this year (I have an instructor lined up for when I exit the Army).

And yes...you can call me Sarge.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

Jim23
02-25-2001, 01:15 PM
BRIAN H wrote:
When you get hit by a feint, does it hurt? One man's feint is another man's clean miss.

Two Sarge's on the same thread!

It can even hurt when you're the one doing the fake kick. I broke my toe that way once. The other guy rushed in while the fake kick was being delivered (the fast part before the strength is applied) and I connected with his knee! Ouch (then had a grading about a week later. More ouch. Passed though).

The fake kick is usually just to set up the next technique, as opposed to a jab, which, although it can do the same thing, is also a strike (but you knew that).

Jim23

Sam
02-26-2001, 10:27 AM
james - can you please explain what shooting the legs means?
I am intrigued......

Jimro
02-27-2001, 12:23 PM
Shooting the legs is a common wrestling technique designed to take the conflict to the floor (or mat).

Wrestlers circle each other bent at the waist looking to grab their opponent below their circle of gravity. Watch a wrestling match and learn how they use physics and brute strength.

The "shoot" happens when one of them see's and opening and dashes in, normally trying to get a shoulder behind his opponents knee. Or a bear hug around the legs with a shove to topple the opponent. Not much you can do then except fall.

Some of the more popular UCF styles emphasize shooting the legs because it leads to a lot of submission holds. Remember when "Shootfighting" was the rage from southern California? Anyways it isn't an attack most martial artist will ever face but it is something to be aware of.

And it's something to think about if some TKD aficiando tries a spinning roundhouse to your head. Duck and take out the knee.

But like I said. A knee to the face when they rush your legs can be a great deterent. Not being there is probably a better one.

If that doesn't clear things up I'll see if I can find pics on the web. Black Belt Magazine did an article on shooting the legs a while back.

Best of luck in training.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

Dajo251
02-27-2001, 02:44 PM
I would like to say something about the "leg shooting" I wrestled for about a year and this was taught to me as a double or single legged take down and not a "leg shoot". Please correct me if I am wrong just thought I would add some input.

Thanks every one for the great responses

Dan Hulley

Jimro
02-28-2001, 02:34 PM
You're correct. Same technique differnent names. I don't know who coined the term "shooting" but most of the wrestlers I've sparred used it. Even one guy from Kentucky.

James

You are,
what you do,
when it counts.

George S. Ledyard
03-12-2001, 09:30 AM
Dajo251 wrote:
First and formost I would like to say that I have been doing aikido for two years. I recently visited a friend of mines kempo school I did not participate in their class but after my friend and I worked out for a while(he also has done aikido). I came to the realization that neither of us had been taught any techniques to defend from kicks. I am looking for a quick answer to 2 main questions...
1. I am sure there are techniques to defend kicks but in the 2 dojos I have trained at neither of them taught these techniques. Why is this?(this I guess is a question directed more twords the instructers)
2.How effective would these techniques realy be against some one who truely knows how to kick?

I thank you all who are putting imput into this
Dan Hulley

There are a whole host of kick defense techniques contained within Aikido. Most are designed to deal with the standard high kicks that show up in many martial arts.

I was lucky to host James Garrison Sensei, Hapkido Eighth Dan, a number of years ago. He was in agreement with me that in combat no one kicks higher than the knees or groin, anything else is too risky. Most of the standard kick defenses don't work well against the low kicks (which is why people kick low). Garrison Sensei maintained that the only real kick defense was to move decisively into the attacker's center and jam the kick. I agree. It is almost impossible to throw a kick when the opponent moves in like this. Then the actual technique becomes a hand technique, either striking, locking, or throwing (or all).

George S. Ledyard
03-12-2001, 09:35 AM
Dajo251 wrote:
I would like to say something about the "leg shooting" I wrestled for about a year and this was taught to me as a double or single legged take down and not a "leg shoot". Please correct me if I am wrong just thought I would add some input.

Thanks every one for the great responses

Dan Hulley

It is my understanding that the term "shoot" refers to the action of passing under the defenses to get to the defender. It may result in a number of techniques like the single and double leg takedowns, the suplex etc.

Jim23
03-12-2001, 09:44 AM
George S. Ledyard wrote:

Most of the standard kick defenses don't work well against the low kicks (which is why people kick low). Garrison Sensei maintained that the only real kick defense was to move decisively into the attacker's center and jam the kick. I agree. It is almost impossible to throw a kick when the opponent moves in like this. Then the actual technique becomes a hand technique, either striking, locking, or throwing (or all).

Absolutely.

This is perhaps the best advice that I've seen dealing with (low) kicks.

Simple is best.

Jim23

willy_lee
03-13-2001, 10:36 AM
The thing about feints to remember:

They work due to an expectation of your response to the feint. For instance, the low kick feint ending in a roundhouse to the head works due to the expectation that you will respond to the feint by dropping your guard or blocking low, opening yourself up for the high kick. If you confound the expectation, the feint simply becomes a weak attack. And a weak attack leaves the attacker open, right?

I used to fence epee, and you learn real fast that if you feint a lot, the other guy will simply ignore the feint and reach out and hit your wrist, since you don't _have_ to respond to the feint, as you do in foil. Same principle, no?

Also, if you enter into the attacker's dead zone in response to the feint, it's pretty hard for them to follow up with the real attack.

willy