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bob_stra
06-03-2004, 01:09 AM
Folks, I'm wondering if any of you can help me out with a counter to this. It's a BJJ takedown setup from the knees. While it seem pretty easy to counter in theory, in practice....

He's how the move is done (repost of email I just sent to a friend) : -

*******************

You're both are kneeling (as for start of groundwork)

Take your right hand and insert it into his left lapel, with your pinky finger up. IOW, you grab with your thumb down - kinda like the position your hand ends up in when pouring a pitcher of water. Make sure you grab so that the bulk of your closed fist is pressing into his collar bone, nice and tight.
 
Bend your right knee and place that foot onto the floor.

Sit more onto your left butt cheek, and put your left hand behind you to base out. Your left knee / leg are on the floor. You are slightly sitting on them.

If he comes forward, stiff arm him / pull him into the mat. You can move backwards if you wish to add power to this.

If he goes back, pull him tight / stiff arm him. Upto you. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use his fwd motion to walk around to his back.

If he tries to go around to your left, push him into the mat while circling to your right. Use the pinky side of your hand into his collar bone to achive this.

If he tries to go around to your right, stiff arm him or change grips to the other side. You can also pull him into the mat by making a semi circle action with that hand, kinda like turning a steering wheel from 10 o'clock to 2 o'clock.

From these basics, there are many takedowns - snap down, go behind, rolling choke. Take your pick.

**************


Here's the stuff I've tried against it, with no success.

(1) hiji kudaki (straight armlock - putting your armpit on their elbow, sitting your weight on it)

(2) Nikyo

(3) Ikkyo

(4) Gokyo

None of which have worked, due to the counters I mentioned above. (pulling, pushing, circling)

Any tips folks?

Chris Birke
06-03-2004, 01:25 AM
Some ideas:

It sound's like theres nothing to stop you from mirroring his grip, so that might nullify it.

How hard is just pulling guard?

Try putting your feet on his hips and pulling back while keeping a grip on his arm. Maybe set something up once you create your space.

If it were stand up I'd use both hands to break that grip, and then push the arm across the body.

I know everything is easier said than done, but there's a counter out there somewhere... I'd hit the mat but i've got finals this week =o. Keep us posted!

James Giles
06-03-2004, 02:09 AM
Any tips folks?

The way we train in my dojo (Aikido), if someone reaches for the collar (for the choke) we counter at that instant. We don't wait around for uke to establish a grip on us.

The moment he reaches for the collar, we would take his center, and lead him into the direction where he is weakest until he meets the mat.

I suppose there are Aikido techniques that could be used to get one out of such a situation as you describe. We just train to avoid getting into a trapped situation like that to begin with. At least that has been the way it has been thus far in my training.

Chris Birke
06-03-2004, 05:19 AM
James, that's a fun thing to note, but the very reason for this training is because it doesn't always play out like that in reality.

It's like giving someone the fighting advice "just don't get hit."

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 05:49 AM
> It sound's like theres nothing to stop you from
> mirroring his grip, so that might nullify it.

Actually yes - good point. That does work. But it's kind of a stalemate. Then you get into pummeling, underhooks etc. So yes, that is viable. But I was kinda hoping there be something sneaky and painful I could do instead of all that hard work;-)

> How hard is just pulling guard?

Another good point ;-) Though when I tried it against the better guys, they simply let go of the grip.

> Try putting your feet on his hips and pulling back > while keeping a grip on his arm. Maybe set
> something up once you create your space.

Tried that one too. I see where your going with it. The armbar is mouth-wateringly close. The orientation of the elbow however spoils it. Yes yes, you can switch to an omoplata, but unless you're fighting 3rd grade children, your opponent will be expecting it.

Even the side laying armbar is out (hiza gatame).

> If it were stand up I'd use both hands to break that > grip, and then push the arm across the body.

That I *will* try tommorow.

> I'd hit the mat but i've got finals this week =o. Keep > us posted

I keep thinking there must be something sneaky and wonderful from Aiki. As soon as I saw the grip I thought to myself "Hey - I shoulda paid more attention during aikido". Dammit.

It's so close to so many things, but as soon as you go for them, his counter is in place.

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 05:55 AM
> The way we train in my dojo (Aikido), if someone > reaches for the collar (for the choke)

It's not a choke. Is a method of controlling the man's head and spine, via his clavicle by using his gi.

> we counter at that instant. We don't wait around
> for uke to establish a grip on us.

Perhaps. Consider it a "What if" scenario then. What if you miss your counter - what would you do then?

You'd be suprised how quickly one can be grabbed like this. It takes very much less than 1/10th of a second. Don't blink ;-)

> The moment he reaches for the collar, we would
> take his center, and lead him into the direction
> where he is weakest until he meets the mat.

I'm curious as to exactly how. He's sitting as a tripod. If you push in the only weak direction, he jumps his legs back and face plants you into the mat.

Any tips?

It's a conundrum, to be sure.

cavedave
06-03-2004, 06:39 AM
I've found that the only aikido move that is really effective in BJJ is Sankyo.
I hypothesis this is because Nikyo and most downward motion moves rely on ukes knees. If you are lying down you can't put pressure through their knees as they don't have weight on them.
Not really related but I'd be interested has anyone else had odd experiences using aikido techniques against a Bjj'er on the ground.

drDalek
06-03-2004, 07:03 AM
What is a "stiff arm"? Does that mean he is pushing you back or holding you inplace and not allowing you to move? Is this a static exercise or is he trying to move you into a pin or a choke?

A stiff armed push is good news for an Aikidoka, movement in general is better news. His counters to your attempts sound like he is moving around on his legs, maybe you can take control of his legs either directly or indirectly? Check the alignment of his spine, is he leaning to one side, or forward or maybe a little back, could you amplify this leaning? If not, is there something you can do to lure him into leaning like that? Check where his head is, could you move his head either directly or indirectly?

If he only has one arm on you, is it realy all that difficult to move? (unless I am misunderstanding and one of you is laying down on the floor or already pinned by the other, if so, could you post some pictures?)

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 08:55 AM
> What is a "stiff arm"?

My bad. Using a judo term to explain a jujitsu problem to aikidoka. Even I'm confused ;-)

Imagine doing a one handed pushup against a wall. See how the bones in your arm align to keep you away from the wall and the ascent? That's a stiff arm.

So - if you come fwd's, he stiff arms you or may bend his elbow and use your forwards action to drag you onto the mat.

> Is this a static exercise or is he trying to move you into a pin or a choke?

It's a set up - kinda of like playing chess. Any move you make is something for him to capitalize on.

(yes I know - make no moves. He can use this grip to capitalize on that too)

> His counters to your attempts sound like he is moving around on his legs

On his knees and feet, yes.

> maybe you can take control of his legs either directly or indirectly?

Yep. That works sometimes, especially if he's slow to move his legs about.

> could you amplify this leaning? If not, is there something you can do to lure him into leaning like that?

Not without severely jeopardizing my own posture.

> If he only has one arm on you, is it really all that difficult to move?

Indeed. If you move into him, you either get nullified or he uses you fwd action with his retreat to bring you face first into the floor. Sideways actions has similar consequences, as per first post.

> (unless I am misunderstanding and one of you is laying down on the floor or already pinned by the

We are both kneeling, though his kneeling posture is modified as per my first post.

Think suwariwaza folks.

Bronson
06-03-2004, 09:30 AM
Do a big leaping ukemi over his head...probably won't accomplish much but I bet he won't be expecting it :D

Are strikes allowed? If you can hit him in the belly of the bicep it hurts quite a bit and will cause a charlie horse/cramp type thingy :)

Bronson

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 09:33 AM
Ukemi....interesting...worth a shot.

No - No strikes allowed in this instance.

Bronson
06-03-2004, 09:36 AM
Ukemi....interesting...worth a shot.

Ummm, that was a joke. But you're a growed up and if you want to do it...... :D

Bronson

willy_lee
06-03-2004, 10:30 AM
If he goes back, pull him tight / stiff arm him. Upto you. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use his fwd motion to walk around to his back.
Not quite clear on this part; if you pull back, he's pulling you tight? How does this get your forehead on the mat?
(1) hiji kudaki (straight armlock - putting your armpit on their elbow, sitting your weight on it)

Are you doing this wakigatame/rokkyo style? Never heard of hiji kudaki before.

One thing I'll throw out, FWIW, sounds like you need to attack that elbow, get a bend in it, but 'cause he's stiff-arming, it's hard to do? Have you tried a wrestling-style 2-on-1 on his stiff arm? Try to drag it down without losing your posture too much? Maybe then you'll have some more options, not sure though. Take this with the bucket of salt it deserves .... ;)

Hmm, leaping ukemi.... flying armbar? :)

=wl

jxa127
06-03-2004, 10:47 AM
Bob,

I'll have to try this tonight. It sounds like an interesting exercise. I keep thinking that ikkyo would work, but I'd be tempted to go with gokyo. Lay my left arm over his elbow and rotate my hips to pull his arm through. I'd trap his right hand with my right before moving.

My disadvantage is that nobody in my dojo (including me) studies BJJ. So anything we do will be from an aikido perspective.

What about the exercise makes is hard for the grabee to off-balance the graber?

Regards,

James Giles
06-03-2004, 10:47 AM
No- No strikes allowed in this instance

James, that's a fun thing to note, but the very reason for this training is because it doesn't always play out like that in reality.

It's like giving someone the fighting advice "just don't get hit."

Hey Chris. Considering Bob's own words above, the training doesn't play out in reality either way. In a real fight situation, even if the attacker has successfully grabbed the defender, the defender's hands are free to attack with atemi, but yet in the exercise described by Bob, "no strikes are allowed". I would say it doesn't always play out like that in reality either. That is like the attacker telling the defender, "I am going to grab you, but I don't want you to smash me in the face and break my jaw or jab my eyes out".

In Aikido, we are allowed to use atemi, so it sounds like Aikido may be even more realistic than BJJ or whatever kind of fighting you guys are describing (??). Don't get me wrong, I think it is good thing to know BJJ and groundfighting, but still, in the particular exercise Bob describes, their are obviously rules in place that would not apply in a real street situation.

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 10:50 AM
> Not quite clear on this part; if you pull back, he's
> pulling you tight? How does this get your forehead > on the mat?

If you pull back, he angles off to the side and pulls you towards him. The combined action results in you being pulled downwards.

Remember, he has a good deal of control over you via his grip.

> Are you doing this wakigatame/rokkyo style?

Yes.

> Never heard of hiji kudaki before.

Yoseikan term :-)

> One thing I'll throw out, FWIW, sounds like you
> need to attack that elbow, get a bend in it

That'd be *exactly* the perfect thing to do, except for the stiff arming (as you mention).

> Have you tried a wrestling-style 2-on-1 on his stiff > arm?

Hmm. No I haven't. I figured his grip was burried in there, so there was no point in grabbing that arm to control it. Of course, as a grab release....

> Take this with the bucket of salt it deserves .... ;)

It's all good ;-) You're all giving me some interesting ideas to try tommorow!

> Hmm, leaping ukemi.... flying armbar? :)

:-)

Arm in wrong position to finish. Trust me - that was the *1st* thing I tried ;-)

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 11:05 AM
Drew Ames wrote -

> I'll have to try this tonight. It sounds like an
> interesting exercise.

Excellent! Two heads better than one ;-)

> I keep thinking that ikkyo would work, but I'd be
> tempted to go with gokyo.

... and it looks like it *should* work, but that damned grip !!!

> Lay my left arm over his elbow and rotate my hips > to pull his arm through.

He bends his arm
He bear hugs you back

Then its fun for all the family ;-) He can choke you, he can drag you backwards and choke you...all sorts of nasties.

(Tried that one already. ;-)


> I'd trap his right hand with my right before moving.

Ahh. My bad.

His grip is burried into your clavicle, closed fist almost. You can't really access his hand at all, less you start attacking his fingers.

(which adds another thing to my list to try)

> (including me) studies BJJ. So anything we do will > be from an aikido perspective.

Great! Be glad to see the results.

In fairness, be sure to allow the "grabber" to use the decidedly non-aiki methods of resistance / countering. And a little bit of strength too :-)


> What about the exercise makes is hard for the ?
> grabee to off-balance the graber?

(1) Graber has a stable tripod base. The one weakpoint in his base is actually a fools paradise. Attack that way and he will use your forward action against you. Due to the orientation of his legs & arm, he can move backwards a lot faster than you can move forwards. He simply places his weight on his outstretched arm and jumps his legs backwards.

OTOH, you yourself are on your knees, possibly on the balls of your feet.

I agree - this is a highly artificial scenario.

*shrugs*

You can sometimes get away with crazy things in grappling.

(2) The action of the grabbing hand. It's constantly pulling or pushing. Due to the grip (and the magnification by the gi lapel), most of the force travels up into the neck. IOW - control the neck, control his movement.

How do I describe the action....kind of like turning a steering wheel? The lapel, plus the close proximity to you clavicle & neck afford the graber a lot of control.

So, the action of his arms plus the grip result in force which can change on a dime from being backwards / forwards to being side/ side, all without adjusting his grip.

I know there must be an obvious counter to this.

willy_lee
06-03-2004, 11:05 AM
> Hmm, leaping ukemi.... flying armbar? :)

:-)

Arm in wrong position to finish. Trust me - that was the *1st* thing I tried ;-)
Hehe -- great minds, etc.
=wl

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 11:12 AM
James Giles wrote:

> Hey Chris. Considering Bob's own words above, > the training doesn't play out in reality either way.

Sure. It's a simulation, a training scenario. But it has applicabiliy to real life.

> In a real fight situation, even if the attacker has
> successfully grabbed the defender, the defender's > hands are free to attack with atemi, but yet in the > exercise described by Bob, "no strikes are

I suspect if you were to strike him, he would move back in that direction I explain above, pull you down onto the mat.

Then circle around you and start elbowing the back of your neck ;-)

While strikes aren't weren't part of this scenario, strikes are allowed in grappling matches, esp vale tudo. We do it all the time - anything from 30% to 100% full force.

In any case - let's not turn this into a "sport vs street" argument. That was never my intention.

I think there's some technical merit to this question.

James Giles
06-03-2004, 11:14 AM
Perhaps. Consider it a "What if" scenario then. What if you miss your counter - what would you do then?

You'd be suprised how quickly one can be grabbed like this. It takes very much less than 1/10th of a second. Don't blink ;-)
[\QUOTE]

Yes, I can see your point. It is good to practice for worst case scenarios.

[QUOTE]
> The moment he reaches for the collar, we would
> take his center, and lead him into the direction
> where he is weakest until he meets the mat.

I'm curious as to exactly how. He's sitting as a tripod. If you push in the only weak direction, he jumps his legs back and face plants you into the mat.


If I understand correctly the positioning of the attacker, when he reaches out to grab, he is weakest in the direction he is reaching into. Suppose he attacks nage by reaching in with his right hand toward the collar of the nage's gi. Nage could pivot on his right knee bringing his left knee to the rear (opening up to the left). At the same time nage could apply atemi to uke's face with his right fist, while grabbing uke's attacking hand with his left and using it to pull uke toward his (nage's) rear (in the direction where uke is weakest).

From there, any number of techniques could be used. One example would be to, after applying atemi with the right fist, exchange hands and appy ikkyo, nikkyo etc. to uke's attacking (right) arm.

But as you said earlier, such a defensive technique as described above does not really apply to the worst-case scenario exercises you guys are performing. Have you tried pivoting toward your rear (as I described above) and simultaneously applying downward pressure on uke's elbow (even after he has grabbed you)? I don't know, I am not a BJJ expert (or Aikido for that matter!), but these are things I would try, considering my present skill level in Aikido.

James Giles
06-03-2004, 11:34 AM
[QUOTE=Bob Strahinjevich]I suspect if you were to strike him, he would move back in that direction I explain above, pull you down onto the mat.

Then circle around you and start elbowing the back of your neck ;-) [\QUOTE]

Supposing of course that he is still conscious! ;)

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 11:40 AM
performing. Have you tried pivoting toward your rear (as I described above) and simultaneously applying downward pressure on uke's elbow (even after he has grabbed you)? I don't know, I am not a BJJ expert (or Aikido for that matter!), but these are things I would try, considering my present skill level in Aikido.

Hmmm. Good idea! Not sure if it'd get his grip off me, but at least he be moving on my terms.

Ray Kissane
06-03-2004, 11:43 AM
Ok how about this, when he pushes you grip his right wrist with your right hand. Place your left hand on his right elbow. Push up and over on the elbow causing the elbow to roll over so that it is upwards at the same time pivot to the right on your left knee. This should cause him to loose their balance and allow you to put an arm bar on them as you pivot so that you take them to the mat. Once he is on the mat you probably will not be able to keep them there if they are good BJJ.

If they pull and their elbow drops push the elbow down and across the body causing their balance to be broken. From this postion you can go into several different take downs.

I use these type of movements when working off of walls where uke has you pinned with a similar type of grip.

Maybe this will help.

Ray Kissane

James Giles
06-03-2004, 11:45 AM
Hmmm. Good idea! Not sure if it'd get his grip off me, but at least he be moving on my terms.

Once you get him off balance, and moving, I believe a nikkyo could be applied to his grip to get it off of you.

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 11:51 AM
Doh! There's an error in my initial post! Where it says this

"If he goes back, pull him tight / stiff arm him. Upto you. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use his fwd motion to walk around to his back."

It should say

"If he goes back, angle off and pull him tight. If you pull him tight, his forehead will go onto the mat and you can use this motion to walk around to his back."

Thus my response in post #16

My bad. Hope it makes more sense!

James Giles
06-03-2004, 11:55 AM
Once you get him off balance, and moving, I believe a nikkyo could be applied to his grip to get it off of you.

On second thought, considering uke is gripping with the pinky up, a sankyo may be a better option for getting him off of you.

bob_stra
06-03-2004, 12:03 PM
Ray Kissane wrote:

> Ok how about this, when he pushes you grip his
> right wrist with your right hand.

Assuming I can get a hold of it. Much of his hand is burried in my gi. But ok.

> Place your left hand on his right elbow. Push up
> and over on the elbow causing the elbow to roll ?
> over so that it is upwards at the same time pivot to > the right on your left knee.

A good idea! What to do if he keeps his arm stiff / stops you from bending his elbow?

It's definitely worth a shot in combination with the many suggestions above.

My main problems when someone attacks like this are

(1) He's controling my neck, sometimes using the force of his pushing to turn my head away from that side.

(2) His wrist is not really open to attack - kinda stuck in my gi.

(3) As soon as you try to attack his elbow, he will counter it. You try and bend it, he will stiffen it, or will use your bending attempt, in combination with backwards motion, to drag you downwards.

You try and straighten it, and he will use the now straight arm to push you backwards. Or he may simple circle to one side. Remember, to grab like this, his arm is angled off a little to begin with. (Try it and see - it kinda looks like a overhand right (from boxing) frozen in mid flight)

I suppose you could try switching from one to the other, try and catch him out, but while your faffing around with that, he's attacking you.

Addendum: I also wanted to add that this has been an excellent thread, from my p.o.v. at least. So nice to see ideas being swapped here, as opposed to the usual thread drift we seem to spiral into :)

Ray Kissane
06-03-2004, 12:38 PM
Ray Kissane wrote:

> Ok how about this, when he pushes you grip his
> right wrist with your right hand.

Assuming I can get a hold of it. Much of his hand is burried in my gi. But ok.

My main problems when someone attacks like this are

(1) He's controling my neck, sometimes using the force of his pushing to turn my head away from that side.

(2) His wrist is not really open to attack - kinda stuck in my gi.

(3) As soon as you try to attack his elbow, he will counter it. You try and bend it, he will stiffen it, or will use your bending attempt, in combination with backwards motion, to drag you downwards.

:)

We really are not trying to do any thing to the wrist, we are only trying to keep Uke from letting go and nage not having controll of Uke.

When Uke is keeping their arm stiff that is the reason that we push up and then over on the Elbow in order to turn it over. If their arm is so stiff that you can not get it to move then you have to take their balance and make them quit thinking about the arm, that is what the pivot helps to do. You may have to add a pull on the arm to help them to stop thinking about keeping the arm stiff. As you start to pull and they pull back on their arm then your left hand should immediately push down on the elbow and push it across the body.

When uke is pushing on your neck do not fight it, go with the direction they are pushing and use that pivot on the knee this will also help move the arm.


These are ideas to play with. It is hard to communicate both the attack that you are discribing and the counter type moves. Hopefully everyone is getting the same picture, maybe not.

Ray Kissane

James Giles
06-03-2004, 12:41 PM
Addendum: I also wanted to add that this has been an excellent thread, from my p.o.v. at least. So nice to see ideas being swapped here, as opposed to the usual thread drift we seem to spiral into :)


I enjoyed it too Bob. Let us know if you figure out a good counter to that attack :)

James Giles
06-03-2004, 01:08 PM
These are ideas to play with. It is hard to communicate both the attack that you are discribing and the counter type moves. Hopefully everyone is getting the same picture, maybe not.
Ray Kissane

That sounds like an effective counter to me Ray! :cool:

Bronson
06-03-2004, 01:14 PM
Ok, so if you pull back he pushes you over...right? If you are up on your toes as he pushes you pull him even faster into you and shoot your feet out from under you and into his stomach then keep going over and flip him ala Captain Kirk :D

If his right hand is grabbing your left lapel in a pinky up grip...hmm. Could you lock his hand/wrist down to your chest with your right hand then drop your left elbow over his (your left arm bent)? If you can get your elbow over his you may be able to use a rotation of your hips to get his elbow bent which would give you a nikyo thingy.

Bronson

willy_lee
06-03-2004, 01:28 PM
Ok, so if you pull back he pushes you over...right? If you are up on your toes as he pushes you pull him even faster into you and shoot your feet out from under you and into his stomach then keep going over and flip him ala Captain Kirk :D I was thinking about this too, but I thought it might be tough to get your feet under both of you fast enough, especially given you're kneeling. From standing it would be a lot easier to do that.

If you can get your elbow over his you may be able to use a rotation of your hips to get his elbow bent which would give you a nikyo thingy.Good point about using the hips!

Another thing I was mulling Bob, how about winding your arm into his to go for back of collar or underhook? I'm going on the thought that maybe you can get in a position such that if he face plants you, you force him to go with you, at least a little, giving you a chance to work something. And with the winding maybe you get a little leverage against the elbow too.

=wl

NagaBaba
06-03-2004, 03:19 PM
My main problems when someone attacks like this are

(1) He's controling my neck, sometimes using the force of his pushing to turn my head away from that side.

(2) His wrist is not really open to attack - kinda stuck in my gi.

(3) As soon as you try to attack his elbow, he will counter it. You try and bend it, he will stiffen it, or will use your bending attempt, in combination with backwards motion, to drag you downwards.

Technical explanatios are always very difficult by internet.

Using his force against him means in this case using his strong grip and stiff arm against him. You may try this: let him very stong grip, then turn around his stucked wrist, your extended arm, wide large mouvement, as you usually do it for warmup, around your shoulder. the same time push you body little bit forward(he will try to push back), to use stifness in his arm, this way he will have more difficulty to relase a grip.

Your large movement must be very fast -- you can injure his wrist, that in friendly sparring isn't nice, but he makes situation very difficult for you.
Depending how you turn your arm(down - up -- down) starting foreward or backward, his arm may bend or only turn, but his posture will be broken. Next thing is to maintain off balance by changing distance and if possible make a lock. Changing distance is often done in the same time as turning your arm, can be foreward or backward. Changing distans may be done only with twisting hips, without actually moving.
**********************************************************

Another possibility, is, you must constantly move BEFORE contact, just like o boxers. You must be always just a bit out his range to force him give a bit his balance. and when he go (or jump) foreward, you go forward also, with all your speed to meet him. Like you want to hit center of his body with your body. That should change a bit your relationship, and let you find opening in his attack.

Jorx
06-04-2004, 04:01 AM
I guess some of you are totally missing the point.
The point is not HOW he grabs but from the moment he has the hold he is not any more giving ANY commitment to this attack but rather reacting to our fellow Aikidoka practioners moves. And that's the point where most of Aikidoka are... screwed.

Don't dream about fancy wristlocks from here or there. I think you have two possibilities:
ONE: Try react the aiki-way and try to capture his movement beforehand.
TWO: Let him get the hold, forget about Aikido techniques and do some proper grappling with proper resistance and fighting on both sides.

jxa127
06-04-2004, 06:59 AM
Okay, here's what worked for us last night. For starters, as the grabber, things worked just like Bob described -- both when I was grabbing and when my partner was grabbing.

Here's the counter I tried: I'm being grabbed on my right lapel, under the colar bone by my partner's right hand. I reach up with my right hand and trap his hand in its current position. I fade back to my left and turn my hips (and shoulders) to the right. This forces a bend in my partner's elbow to his left. I then open my hips to his right and do something that resembles a kotegeiashi. My partner ends up on his back. This is all done with both of us kneeling.

It worked both ways, with me grabbing and being grabbed.

Now the caveat: neither of us have ever studied BJJ, so your results may vary. [:)] It was an interesting exercise, Bob. Thanks.

Regards,

Bronson
06-04-2004, 08:22 AM
I'm being grabbed on my right lapel, under the colar bone by my partner's right hand.

Take your right hand and insert it into his left lapel...

But you had a different attack.

Bronson

jxa127
06-04-2004, 08:52 AM
My mistake. That should have read, "I'm being grabbed on my left lapel,under the colar bone, by my partner's right hand." IOW, grabbing across the body. We did it as Bob described.

So, I reach up with my left hand and fade back to the right. This forces a bend in the elbow to the right. Then I open to the left and throw kotegaeshi.

Jeez, this is hard; describing things on the web. Stop by, and I'll show you what I mean. [:)]

Regards,

bob_stra
06-04-2004, 10:26 AM
Hi Drew

Interesting! I will see if I can't apply some of that.

Much appreciate your help.

> Jeez, this is hard; describing things on the web.
> Stop by, and I'll show you what I mean.

Man, I wish digital cameras were more prevalent ;-(

I would love to show you all this technique (and to see Drew's counter) just so that we're all on the same page.

Like I said at the start - highly artificial scenario, but interesting none the less. Uniquely in the domain of Aikido.

Wonderful how things cross over, no?

Aristeia
06-04-2004, 01:57 PM
Assuming I can get a hold of it. Much of his hand is burried in my gi. But ok.



Hey Bob
There's your answer. As he sets up the grip distract him by grabbing his sleeve with one hand making him think you are trying to dislodge the arm. This is of course a feint. With your other hand quickly undo and divest yourself of your obi. You need to practice spinning and shrugging off your gi quickly (pre training application of baby oil may help here). Now he is facing a much more fearsome adversary - nearly nude bob.

Seriously though, I've been offline for a while, have you gotten any input from Frank or Bill on RMA?

Aristeia
06-04-2004, 02:01 PM
Not really related but I'd be interested has anyone else had odd experiences using aikido techniques against a Bjj'er on the ground.

Sumi otoshi type thinking is useful when starting from the knees to get some people down (ok, mostly newbies - but then newbies are pretty much all I have success with in BJJ anyways).
I've gotten ikkyo on someone before but was then too slow to capitalise on it. And kote gaeshi once - same night I actually put someone to sleep- qualified as the best training ever.

Ron Tisdale
06-04-2004, 02:10 PM
I've gotten ikkyo on someone before but was then too slow to capitalise on it.

If you can get even the first half of ikkyo on someone (before the pin) there are a host of things you can do. The most usefull in a BJJ context is hiji shime. There are some threads out there on this technique, it works standing, kneeling, and otherwise... :) Especially if he grabs pinky up!

RT

Aristeia
06-04-2004, 03:07 PM
If you can get even the first half of ikkyo on someone (before the pin) there are a host of things you can do. The most usefull in a BJJ context is hiji shime. There are some threads out there on this technique, it works standing, kneeling, and otherwise... :) Especially if he grabs pinky up!

RT

Yeah, even the fact that i was affecting his balance rather than him choking the life out of me was a positive. :)

bob_stra
06-05-2004, 03:54 AM
Michael Fooks wrote:

> Hey Bob

Hey there stranger :-) I hope you've been saving your pennies ;-)

How go things in the land of the long white cloud?

> There's your answer. As he sets up the grip
> distract him by grabbing his sleeve with one hand > making him think you are trying to dislodge the
>arm.

I hadn't thought to do that (pull his sleeve down). I've just been trying to hammer his hand off in combination with a quick knee spin.

> Now he is facing a much more fearsome
> adversary - nearly nude bob.

All joking aside, I got so fed up with this crap that at one point I undid my gi, shrugged that lapel off and wrapped it around his hand. Then I dragged him around with that for a while, took the other side of my gi and threw it over his head, in true hockey style. To top it off, I choked him with my belt. R.m.a. would be proud!

Wurkd gud :-)

Once :-(

> Seriously though, I've been offline for a while,
> have you gotten any input from Frank or Bill on
> RMA?

Yeah - Trav and the guys have been giving me the BJJ perspective. Mostly I've been moaning abt side control escapes / mental conditioning over at RMA.

( Post a controversial thread title and you get results over there. Never fails :-)

Lots of good stuff to try now. Ain't the net grand?

bob_stra
06-05-2004, 04:10 AM
David Curran wrote:

> Not really related but I'd be interested has anyone > else had odd experiences using aikido techniques > against a Bjj'er on the ground.

Sure...though my terminology might not make sense.

Wristlock when he resists juji gatame by grabbing his other wrist

From mount: He protects his neck against a choke, I grab his arm and figure four it, then stand up. Wristlock. If he resists, spinning armlock.

From kesa: Switch thru to side triangle, if he reists pull trapped arm down for kimura, if he resists that, wrist lock him.

Entagled arm throw when he's stupid enough to try a lapel choke while we're both on the knees.

Various grip escapes from wrestling tie ups etc.

FWIW - anytime you win by a wristlock, you have to yell out "AiKiDo WinS! SuckA !! )

(Maybe Micheal can give the proper aikido name for these wristlocks. They're kinda like a modified kote gashi)

IOW - most aikido stuff works, but you better be able to back them up with solid ground grappling if things go wrong. Plus know how they fit into the grand scheme of things.

cavedave
06-05-2004, 05:01 AM
Thanks for the replies.
I should point out that in the ocean of aikido i'm sitting in the harbour, so when i said that techniques don't work i meant I can't do them which are very different things.

Jorx
06-06-2004, 02:42 PM
Word @bob... But these wristlocks aren't anything Aikido-invented.
BTW... the only wristlock I've been able to do is gokyo. It's very hard to do nikyo or sankyo on ground or from guard 'cause you don't have such base as in tachiwaza.

Aristeia
06-07-2004, 03:57 AM
Michael Fooks wrote:

> Hey Bob

Hey there stranger :-) I hope you've been saving your pennies ;-)

How go things in the land of the long white cloud?


after my wife's 30th party on the weekend the pennies somewhat declineth, but rest assured there are some tucked away. And for what it's worth, arm barring someone on the dancefloor may seem like a great idea after 3 or 4 hours of drinking but in the morning you realise it's just silly. :) :)




All joking aside, I got so fed up with this crap that at one point I undid my gi, shrugged that lapel off and wrapped it around his hand. Then I dragged him around with that for a while, took the other side of my gi and threw it over his head, in true hockey style. To top it off, I choked him with my belt. R.m.a. would be proud!

Wurkd gud :-)

now that sounds like the beans.

Once :-(

Ain't that always the problem. Particularly when you go aikido on their ass.

Aristeia
06-07-2004, 04:03 AM
David Curran wrote:

(Maybe Micheal can give the proper aikido name for these wristlocks. They're kinda like a modified kote gashi)

IOW - most aikido stuff works, but you better be able to back them up with solid ground grappling if things go wrong. Plus know how they fit into the grand scheme of things.

If it's the one I'm thinking of I'd call it gokyo. Even the gokyo probably more accurately describes the take down and arm control aspect of the technique, the attack on the wrist is what's found in the pin (ie hand going directly back towards the arm as opposed to the twist you would see in kote gaeshii or nikyo)

I've found aikido stuff can work but often not twice with the same technique on the same guy. It's much harder to work into a position where the technique becomes inevitabe than it is with say BJJ techniques on the ground. All though the figure four wristlock is nice (and a nice way of avoiding going for the full armbar if you have concerns about leaving yourself prone on the mat)
Also I find if you're starting from the knees and bust out some spinning shikko and some yoko ukemi around them, at least they say "wow" before making you tap like a red headed stepchild.

Aristeia
06-07-2004, 04:05 AM
Word @bob... But these wristlocks aren't anything Aikido-invented.
BTW... the only wristlock I've been able to do is gokyo. It's very hard to do nikyo or sankyo on ground or from guard 'cause you don't have such base as in tachiwaza.
actually I have done nikkyo a couple of times. You're going for a fall back arm bar, they escape by turning away, popping the shoulder through and sitting up into your guard. If you keep the arm on your chest during the escape they end up in perfect position for a nikyo.