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stern9631
06-01-2004, 07:32 AM
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 07:38 AM
http://www.aikidojournal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=5303&highlight=yoshinkan+shoot&sid=a120da85ddf0ff25db2d598d6e719891#5303

There are some other threads that are relevant there as well.

RT

Mark Barlow
06-01-2004, 09:10 AM
We use a variation of kaiten nage with great success against MMA & BJJ. Like any technique, it requires extensive practice with realistic attacks.

Mark Barlow

Jordan Steele
06-01-2004, 10:55 AM
A double leg takedown is very hard to avoid if the attacker is determined to tackle you. A few variations we do in class are a modified kaiten-nage, kata-gatame, choke/neck-crank, but in reality a knee butt to the face or an elbow thrust to the back of the head is the only thing that will "stop" an attacker.

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 11:51 AM
[quote]but in reality a knee butt to the face or an elbow thrust to the back of the head is the only thing that will "stop" an attacker.[quote]

In my experience, those only work on sloppy tackles...an experienced wrestler or bjjer usually has no problem with those types of defenses because of their setup and posture. A sprawl will give you an even chance...

Ron

Joe Jutsu
06-01-2004, 11:56 AM
In my experience, those only work on sloppy tackles...an experienced wrestler or bjjer usually has no problem with those types of defenses because of their setup and posture. A sprawl will give you an even chance...

Ron

Do you think that a sprawl would be considered an aiki response by most aikidoka? I've never seen the modified kaitenage which is intreaging, but as a former wrestler, I know I would fall back on a sprawl myself.

Joe

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 12:46 PM
Depends...if you read the link I posted above, there are some similarities in the 45 degree pivot method and the sprawl...except the pivot method tries to focus more on maintaining posture. The sprawl is probably a better bet against a larger opponant, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to try it if multiple opponants are involved.

Guess what though...there's no guarantees either way...the best thing to do is to find a wrestler and try a few things. Be prepared to get bounced off the mat a bit though. teeheehee...you get used to it. :)

Ron (42, and getting too old for such nonsense)

Jordan Steele
06-01-2004, 12:50 PM
Now that I think about I agree with Ron that a knee butt or an elbow would probably not work with a skilled wrestler or BJJer, and yes the sprawl is very effective, but it doesn't "stop" the attacker. Aikido philosophy aside, I don't want to end up on the ground so I would probably resort to more blunt alternatives if someone tried to tackle me.

Don_Modesto
06-01-2004, 01:10 PM
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?

Who's the attacker?

Kenneth W. Starr: Box his ears, knee his face, UDE GARAMI, GANSEKI OTOSHI.

Pamela Anderson: UKEMI, extend ki, unify.

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 02:11 PM
Man, Don's humor, as always, cuts right to the point! :)

and yes the sprawl is very effective, but it doesn't "stop" the attacker.

You have a good point there...it is often said that 'aiki' must be applied at the moment of contact...but while a sprawl may not stop the attack, it will certainly give you a fair chance of surviving the attack, which may give you the opportunity to apply 'aiki' at some later moment in the struggle. Without the sprawl (or something like it) you *could* just be toast...or worse yet, jam...

Ron :)

Bronson
06-01-2004, 02:14 PM
When this has been tried on my I usually go for the fall down and scream "NOT IN THE FACE, NOT IN THE FACE" as loudly as I can tactic.

Bronson

Largo
06-01-2004, 08:29 PM
knee the face. Atemi is aikido.

I pretty much agree with Don. Not sure how much I'd like to extend and unify with Pam Anderson though :crazy: . To each their own.

George S. Ledyard
06-01-2004, 08:45 PM
A double leg takedown is very hard to avoid if the attacker is determined to tackle you. A few variations we do in class are a modified kaiten-nage, kata-gatame, choke/neck-crank, but in reality a knee butt to the face or an elbow thrust to the back of the head is the only thing that will "stop" an attacker.

I was just watching Steven Seagal's Aikido: The Path Without Thought. He did a wonderful double palm pulse strike on an uke who was "shooting" on him that, had he not pulled it, would have totally messed up the uke's neck and put a good stop to his attempt to get to the legs (the uke was Matusoka Sensei I believe).

Aristeia
06-01-2004, 09:33 PM
I disagree that the sprawl is not Aiki. It gets you off the line of attack (withdraws the legs that were the target of the attack) and uses body motion to redirect the attackers motion to a position of off-balance/compromise. Sounds aiki to me.

Jorx
06-02-2004, 02:52 AM
I was just watching Steven Seagal's Aikido: The Path Without Thought. He did a wonderful double palm pulse strike on an uke who was "shooting" on him that, had he not pulled it, would have totally messed up the uke's neck and put a good stop to his attempt to get to the legs (the uke was Matusoka Sensei I believe).

Steven Seagal? The guy who was supposed not pass out while choked and then was choked unconcious by Gene LeBell? The guy who was "too busy" and "too dangerous" to accept Bill Wallace's challenges?

Anyone can do anything against commited attack while just sitting there and waiting for it. But when there is real combat with feints and movement then I see no way of "beautifully double-palming" anyone. And have not seen it anywhere where the context would be more valid than on a Steven Seagal's tape.

As I have never been to Matusoka senseis seminar's / nor seen any of specifically his tapes I don't say anything about his ability to "shoot"... yet... has he any backround of grappling as well?

Mr. Ledyard... as you are with no doubt a person with very high level of knowledge, experience and skills in traditional MA as well in Aikido, you have created contemporary self-defence programs and obviously (trusting internet as the source) are an appreciated teacher in the US - how often do you / have you sparred with different opponents on different skill levels / pshysical abilities / MA background?
(And the question is about sparring in western means... not Aikido style randori)

Keith_k
06-02-2004, 03:44 AM
A sprawl may or may not be aiki, but it works. Many people take wrestling classes in high school or college, so leg takedowns are not all that uncommon. Why neglect the most effective counter for this technique, a technique which will put you in the most disadvantageous position you can be in, simply because it may or may not fit someone’s arbitrary definition of “aiki?”

Keith

Mel Barker
06-02-2004, 07:16 AM
A sprawl may or may not be aiki, but it works. Many people take wrestling classes in high school or college, so leg takedowns are not all that uncommon. Why neglect the most effective counter for this technique, a technique which will put you in the most disadvantageous position you can be in, simply because it may or may not fit someone's arbitrary definition of "aiki?"

Keith

How is one able to deal with the attackers from one's rear after sprawling?

Mel Barker

paw
06-02-2004, 07:40 AM
How is one able to deal with the attackers from one's rear after sprawling?

How is one able to deal with attackers from one's rear if they are pinned on the ground?

A sprawl is not the "end all, be all" martial technique. Like any technique it may not fit all situations. Be that as it may, it is easy to learn, effective, and is a high percentage move (effective in a wide variety of situations against a wide range of skilled attackers) that has proven itself over and over again.

Regards,

Paul

Greg Jennings
06-02-2004, 08:14 AM
How is one able to deal with the attackers from one's rear after sprawling?

Much better than if one is one is pinned to the ground, stunned from being slammed down.

Once you're practiced at the sprawl, you can oft times stay on your feet and quickly regain your mobility.

The sprawl isn't the only option but it is a very reliable one. If the shooter is good and especially if you let them dictate events, you'd better know it.

I, personally, believe it is wise to pay attention to techniques that are uniformly used by competitors that have world-class coaching and the very best motivation to use what works.

That said, one must take into account the assumptions behind the techniques. Viable techniques could be eliminated by the rules of the game, etc.

Regards,

George S. Ledyard
06-02-2004, 10:27 AM
Steven Seagal? The guy who was supposed not pass out while choked and then was choked unconcious by Gene LeBell? The guy who was "too busy" and "too dangerous" to accept Bill Wallace's challenges?

Anyone can do anything against commited attack while just sitting there and waiting for it. But when there is real combat with feints and movement then I see no way of "beautifully double-palming" anyone. And have not seen it anywhere where the context would be more valid than on a Steven Seagal's tape.

As I have never been to Matusoka senseis seminar's / nor seen any of specifically his tapes I don't say anything about his ability to "shoot"... yet... has he any backround of grappling as well?

Mr. Ledyard... as you are with no doubt a person with very high level of knowledge, experience and skills in traditional MA as well in Aikido, you have created contemporary self-defence programs and obviously (trusting internet as the source) are an appreciated teacher in the US - how often do you / have you sparred with different opponents on different skill levels / pshysical abilities / MA background?
(And the question is about sparring in western means... not Aikido style randori)

Let's forget all that movie hype about challenges etc. with Steven Seagal. The choke thing happened because he was dumb enough to let a guy he didn't know put a choke on him. As any of us know there isn't an escape from a choke that is really on, you have to beat it before. They weren't fighting, he let LeBell put it on, thinking he would show the folks on the movie set how Aikido folks do an "escape". It was dumb of him but it doesn't say anything at all about his ability to fight (if that's important to you).

I don't spar. And I am not a grappler. What grappling I've done was via the Araki Ryu training I did under Ellis Amdur Sensei and a bit through the local Police Academy with Matt Hume and Eric Paulson (Extreme Fighting). My ability to execute the technique I mentioned against some isn't the point though... If I made it a goal to practice it, I have no doubt that eventually I would get to the point where I could execute it against some folks at least.

All of our training is about this issue... what level is the partner you are training with? Are there people who could succesfully shoot on Seagal? Sure, I would think so. Are there people who couldn't if they tried, certainly. It's a technique, that's all. No one said that this is the end all be all unbeatable technique which would place an Aikido guy ahead of any BJJ practitioner.

This is that stupid question of "if a guy from martial art X meets an Aikido guy, who would win?" And the answer, which hasn't changed over the years as martial arts fads come and go, is the guy who is better at what he does than the other guy.

Jorx
06-02-2004, 11:37 AM
It was dumb of him but it doesn't say anything at all about his ability to fight (if that's important to you).

I don't spar. And I am not a grappler. What grappling I've done was via the Araki Ryu training I did under Ellis Amdur Sensei and a bit through the local Police Academy with Matt Hume and Eric Paulson (Extreme Fighting).

No one said that this is the end all be all unbeatable technique which would place an Aikido guy ahead of any BJJ practitioner.

This is that stupid question of "if a guy from martial art X meets an Aikido guy, who would win?" And the answer, which hasn't changed over the years as martial arts fads come and go, is the guy who is better at what he does than the other guy.

(Seagal) And he has no proof of his ability to fight... yet he has made many claims about existance of this ability. To me that tells a lot about a person in MA scene.

When you do not spar... that takes a lot of faith to KNOW that the things you do are for real when you do not spar.

Considering the subject of a double-leg takedown you could do lets say 1000 reps of someone shooting at you and you doing a technique but I think one would still be tackled if that happened in a fight.

Paulson seems a great guy and has some really great ideas... yet (and i think that comes from his JKD background) he is also one of those who emphasizes technique over delivery system.

The guys in SBG have a good saying. "In the end, the guy with best delivery system wins." That's almost what you said. Though I'd like to point out that in present day most aikidoka don't have a delivery system. They have a bunch of techniques attatched practiced in dead repetiton, attached to footwork that doesn't work in a fight of today against attacks of today.

Martial Arts are evolving with the society... but somehow I feel that Aikido is stuck in methods and techniques of the past and ideology of the future. So it's a very dissonantial art instead of being harmonic. Of course it's fun and can give you a lot but when we are talking terms of fighting...
:rolleyes:

Sorry for trolling the subject but this post like... got out of hand.

paw
06-02-2004, 11:49 AM
Paulson seems a great guy and has some really great ideas... yet (and i think that comes from his JKD background) he is also one of those who emphasizes technique over delivery system.


I'm very interested as to how you came to that conclusion. Particularly, when one considers how Erik trains, instructs his students, conducts seminars, and his statements concerning trapping in Grappling Magazine.

Regards,

Paul

Ron Tisdale
06-02-2004, 12:02 PM
[quote]When you do not spar... [\quote]

Uhh, let's be clear here, though you do bring up some very valid points, sparring is NOT fighting. It can have its uses in certain methodologies, perhaps its addition to aikido training would be interesting, if not a good thing...but it is NOT fighting. I know personally many people who do not spar who have been successful in fights and self defense situations.

Ron

Jorx
06-02-2004, 12:31 PM
I'm very interested as to how you came to that conclusion. Particularly, when one considers how Erik trains, instructs his students, conducts seminars, and his statements concerning trapping in Grappling Magazine.


He is like... all submission... you could learn a zillion submissions from him. Lockflows and things. Miracle escape-into-submission techniques from bottom and so forth and so on. Even if it doesn't affect him, sure does his students.

AND... he hasn't done so great in the competitions to put up to his methods.

Jorx
06-02-2004, 12:38 PM
Uhh, let's be clear here, though you do bring up some very valid points, sparring is NOT fighting. It can have its uses in certain methodologies, perhaps its addition to aikido training would be interesting, if not a good thing...but it is NOT fighting. I know personally many people who do not spar who have been successful in fights and self defense situations.
Ron

Of course there is the POSSIBILITY of being successful in fight and self-defence. Especially against average drunk joe with a haymaker.

But what we have today - as it is NOT normal to test yourself on street nor we do not have wars where we could test our hand to hand combat - sparring is the CLOSEST training method to real thing. Training with an uncooperative partner with unpredictable movement. Training ALIVE. Not in a set pattern, in dead repetition.

And what's as important sparring can give you confidence which you really need. You KNOW that you can execute your technique. You've been there and done that.

...my opinion...

paw
06-02-2004, 12:50 PM
He is like... all submission... you could learn a zillion submissions from him. Lockflows and things. Miracle escape-into-submission techniques from bottom and so forth and so on.

I have no idea how you can make this statement. Having trained with him, that is not the case. Having rolled with him, he is very, very skilled.

AND... he hasn't done so great in the competitions to put up to his methods.

There is no way to say this gently. You are wrong. His record is 9-4-1(as per sherdog). His loss to Warring in EF1 was a fluke, IMO. That leaves Paul Jones, Matt Hume and Carlos Newton. ....Those men are not tomato cans. In particular his fight with Hume was a war that was stopped on a cut, Erik was giving as good as he got.


Regards,

Paul

Mel Barker
06-02-2004, 09:16 PM
How is one able to deal with attackers from one's rear if they are pinned on the ground?


Has anyone suggested being pinned as a technique?

I'm still interested in an answer to my question. If anyone has had experience if sprawling in a multiple attack situation, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks,

Mel Barker

James Giles
06-03-2004, 01:28 AM
Though I'd like to point out that in present day most aikidoka don't have a delivery system. They have a bunch of techniques attatched practiced in dead repetiton, attached to footwork that doesn't work in a fight of today against attacks of today.


The song remains the same.....

Jorx
06-03-2004, 03:20 AM
Of course he is very skilled. He is one of the top-instructors. But IMnotsoHO he lacks the something that would make the best out of him. And I think that's the methods.
Men who he lost to are no tomato cans but not the absolute top as well. But lets leave it there. I have much respect for Paulson, I really do and from his instructionals you can really get some ideas to add to your "game" but I think you can't build your game on his ideas.

And okay, sorry... I exaggerated a bit. This record is not bad at all (mine is much more worse;) )

About sprawling against multiple attackers: first of all when one gets in a situation that he has one guy in his front and other on his back it's already really bad.

BUT: after a good sprawl there are two really quick possibilities: 1) stand up 2) go-behind

And James - it sure does.

Feels good being back on this forum after 2 years or so singing songs other ppl can sing about... Have gotten much smarter? dumber? more experienced! during this time.
:ai:

Aristeia
06-03-2004, 05:18 AM
[QUOTE=Mel Barker]Has anyone suggested being pinned as a technique?

[QUOTE]

The point being, that's where you're likely to end up if you don't defend the double leg well. And the best way to defend the double leg has been shown to be the sprawl.

Mel Barker
06-03-2004, 07:06 AM
[The point being...

I believe I understand the point, I still want to know how to defend against multiple attackers using the technique. Several people have stated that it is the best thing to use against a double leg take down. I have yet to see it in any Aikido syllabus, so if it is the best thing to use, I want to make sure it would be viable against multiple attackers since most of the Aikido practitioners I know train against multiple attackers.

Thanks,

Mel Barker

Jorx
06-03-2004, 07:17 AM
Quick sprawl and stand up or go behind should put you again in even position agaisnt multiple attackers. When 2 ppl are in front of you then sprawling block the other attacker. Same goes for sprawl and gobehind when other attacker is coming from behind.

paw
06-03-2004, 08:07 AM
Several people have stated that it is the best thing to use against a double leg take down. I have yet to see it in any Aikido syllabus, so if it is the best thing to use, I want to make sure it would be viable against multiple attackers since most of the Aikido practitioners I know train against multiple attackers.

Mel, you're starting to sound like a troll.

1. Scanning through this thread I don't see anyone that has said a sprawl is "the best thing". They have said that a sprawl is effective. I believe I have made the strongest claims when I wrote A sprawl is not the "end all, be all" martial technique. Like any technique it may not fit all situations. Be that as it may, it is easy to learn, effective, and is a high percentage move (effective in a wide variety of situations against a wide range of skilled attackers) that has proven itself over and over again.

2. Jorx has answered your question twice.

3. If you're going to omit a technique because you think it may not be the most appropriate thing to do against multiple attackers, you better get rid of swari-waza post haste.

4. My honest advice. Go into a good wrestling club. College level would be best. Wear a shirt that says, "I support Title IX" on the front and "We need to cut more wrestling programs to have women's ping pong" on the back. Then ask two or three for a friendly match. That will give you an idea as to how good your defence is against multiple attackers and/or wrestling shots.

Regards,

Paul

Budd
06-03-2004, 08:50 AM
I gave a long, detailed version of this yesterday, then the connection crapped out and I lost the message, so here's the briefer version:

Two of the sprawls I drill, in my opinion, can be approached from an 'aiki' mindset, in terms of irimi and tenkan. The 'irimi sprawl', which I show as the standard, is your basic sprawl -- hips, legs and feet back, hands providing points of contact to the arms/shoulders and you hit/atemi the shooter with your chest as you drop your weight straight down on the shooter's neck/back of the head. The head is up and the back a bit arched to 1) Maintain your body's structure 2) Check your area as the engagement continues. Your feet should be down with contact being on the top/laces area. If you're on your toes the shooter can drive through and stack your legs.

If this sprawl halts/stops the shooter's momentum (the wieght dropped onto the shooter's head/neck and driven to the ground can end an encounter), you can fix the shooter in place long enough to recover and go (to either a more standard aikido throw, headlock, knees & elbows, etc.) from there. The body dynamics can vary, but it is essentially a straight entry (irimi).

If the shooter isn't stopped and drives through or starts to lift, then the 'tenkan sprawl' is essantially maintaining the points of contact through the hands and chest to spin to the side (whichever is open -- wrestlers should recognize this as a spin drill) and either spin all the way to the back for a choke, push the shooter forward and stand back up, or go for a restraint, etc. This is useful for gaining kuzushi if/when you failed to do so on the initial sprawl or have lost it -- the idea being to move around to the side/behind (tenkan) so that you aren't fighting directly against the shooter's strength.

Either way, the sprawl is a good transition and recovery technique for aikidoka to adapt into their repetoire (although to practice, just like with strike defenses, you need to have someone that can give you a good, legitimate leg-shoot). The transition of weight straight downward has some relation to the kokyu projections where nage drops to one knee. The sprawl is just another way (and a very effective one against a leg-shoot) to receive forward momentum.

Mel Barker
06-03-2004, 08:37 PM
Quick sprawl and stand up or go behind should put you again in even position agaisnt multiple attackers. When 2 ppl are in front of you then sprawling block the other attacker. Same goes for sprawl and gobehind when other attacker is coming from behind.

Thanks for responding to my question.

Mel Barker

Mel Barker
06-03-2004, 08:49 PM
Mel, you're starting to sound like a troll.

1. Scanning through this thread I don't see anyone that has said a sprawl is "the best thing". They have said that a sprawl is effective. I believe I have made the strongest claims when I wrote A sprawl is not the "end all, be all" martial technique. Like any technique it may not fit all situations. Be that as it may, it is easy to learn, effective, and is a high percentage move (effective in a wide variety of situations against a wide range of skilled attackers) that has proven itself over and over again.

2. Jorx has answered your question twice.

3. If you're going to omit a technique because you think it may not be the most appropriate thing to do against multiple attackers, you better get rid of swari-waza post haste.

4. My honest advice. Go into a good wrestling club. College level would be best. Wear a shirt that says, "I support Title IX" on the front and "We need to cut more wrestling programs to have women's ping pong" on the back. Then ask two or three for a friendly match. That will give you an idea as to how good your defence is against multiple attackers and/or wrestling shots.

Regards,

Paul

Paul,

I'm sorry to sound like a troll, I just felt no one answered my question.

You are partially right in pointing out that Jorx answered it. I think it was only once, and it was after my last post.

I've had excellent results with swari waza myself, but I can see where many would think it useless.

I hadn't asked for advice but thanks for offering it. I agree that it is very useful to interact with others skilled in different martial arts. I usely do so to try to sharpen my Aikido skills not to learn another art. Plus, you are quite funny!

I used to find Aikido lacking as it seems many that post here do. I find it less so the more I train, so I try to find Aiki answers rather than try to develop my own martial art by gathering a hodge podge of techniques.

Mel Barker

Ron Tisdale
06-04-2004, 07:47 AM
Hi Mel,

Everything has its strengths and weaknesses. Just because people here are aware of that, doesn't mean that they find aikido 'lacking'. They are just being honest with themselves and others about what they see in the art.

I'm not giving up aikido any time soon, that's for sure, even if a high school wrestler manages to take me down. 'Course, since I used to wrestle, I do have a clue what to do if he gets me down!
Ron (I always liked throwing in the leg anyway...gotta love that guillotine!) :)

Pauly
06-05-2004, 09:46 PM
As far as defenses go, if your arms are free, what happened to sticking your fingers in his eyes, or biting him real hard (and worrying about bloodborne pathogens later)? Is that stuff not AIKI? I think, arrogantly to be sure, that it sure as heck is aiki if I'm doing it.

Granted that kind of stuff is hard on ukes, but when did that stuff leave the rule book. I leg-grabbing jerk is going to ignore the fact that he's attacking me without nice comfy tatami to fall on, I might not limit myself to a "sprawl" (whatever the hell that is) or an adroitly executed kotegaeshi. Peace out!

Jorx
06-06-2004, 04:02 AM
As far as defenses go, if your arms are free, what happened to sticking your fingers in his eyes, or biting him real hard (and worrying about bloodborne pathogens later)? Is that stuff not AIKI? I think, arrogantly to be sure, that it sure as heck is aiki if I'm doing it.

Granted that kind of stuff is hard on ukes, but when did that stuff leave the rule book. I leg-grabbing jerk is going to ignore the fact that he's attacking me without nice comfy tatami to fall on, I might not limit myself to a "sprawl" (whatever the hell that is) or an adroitly executed kotegaeshi. Peace out!

Umm... I don't want to jump into conclusions but usually people starting this kind of talk live quite far off from the planet called REALITY.

Full-contact sparring experience tends to eliminate the hopes of going for "the dirty stuff" in the street and that it "mystically saves!"

a) HE is able to do the same dirty stuff
b) With a really poor delivery system you can't deliver these "dirty techniques"

And when you do not know what a sprawl is, I'm pretty sure you have never felt a nice double-leg takedown either.

To be able to execute ANY technique you must constantly practice the motions which lead you to this technique - your delivery system must be very solid and only way to get it solid is to train it with uncooperative partner with unpredictable movement.

KNOWING that "sure I can eye gouge or bite him or kick him in the nads" is not enough. And you might just discover that these things are really hard to do while being run into, lifted up, slammed into the pavement (in training case tatami) and mounted and pounded from above.

Any more questions?

Jorx
06-07-2004, 03:08 AM
http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?FID=21&a=27&TID=0
And take the post WHY NOT STREET...

Chad Sloman
06-07-2004, 02:17 PM
Budd is "teh corr3ct"! ;) (Hi Budd)

From my recent experiences in "rasslin", I will say that there are not as many differences in wrestling principles and aikido principles as you may think. Look to sumo (arguably the base of all Japanese martial arts) and see what they do. Use what works, that to me is "aiki". BTW sprawling is easy, therefore that's what I do.

Pauly
06-08-2004, 04:55 AM
My comments were in the vein of wild speculation and Jorgen, you are absolutely correct that I haven't ever experienced a good double leg takedown (and hope I never do, outside of a training environment).

Thanks for the link Jorgen. I have tried to get some of the more athletic folks at my dojo to train with a broader (more realistic and varied) perspective in attacks but it's been an uphill battle. Not to knock any of my training partners, but their attitude has been "if you do the technique right, it'll work no matter what." I find that answer unsatisfying.

What is meant in your context by the term "delivery system"? Do you mean the manner in which a technique is executed, or the training level of the person performing the technique? Thanks again for your responses.

paw
06-08-2004, 10:07 AM
What is meant in your context by the term "delivery system"?

That's a term that is used by Matt Thornton of the Sraight Blast Gym (http://www.straightblastgym.com/) . Thornton uses the term "delivery system" to separate the techniques from an art from the sporting application of the art.

Regards,

Paul

Jorx
06-08-2004, 12:52 PM
That's a term that is used by Matt Thornton of the Sraight Blast Gym (http://www.straightblastgym.com/) . Thornton uses the term "delivery system" to separate the techniques from an art from the sporting application of the art.

Regards,

Paul

Umm... not quite sure but you meant with that... but as far as I understand this conception is that a delivery system is something from where you deliver your technique what do you build your techniques on and from where you execute them. Umm... I try to give some examples...

Some grappling arts (for example Judo, BJJ, Sambo) use the same topgame delivery system. They have the same positions and same movements from one position to another (side mount, mount scarf etc). The techniques may vary a bit (some have some locks some have other locks etc) but they all have the same delivery system. And as empiric facts show this far this may be the best grappling topcontrol delivery system. (And therefore Sambo vs Bjj discussion is pointless because they share the same delivery system... you may argue bjj vs. silat though)

Ippon seoi-nage / armthrow / vertushka (judo /wrestling) is the same technique executed on the same delivery system.

Boxing / kickboxing / muay thai share the same delivery system of delivering strikes. The exact ways how they strike may differ but the delivery system remains the same.

Now... you may take a boxer and teach him how to jab EYES in like ten minutes. That's because he has the delivery system and he has trained it alive for helluvalot of time. But if you take an average joe from the street he may learn the technique of eyejabbing in ten minutes as well if he has some coordination but he will NOT be able to deliver this technique in a live fight. Same goes for some mighty-yellow-biting-snake-gung-fu (name just thought out by me for those who didn't understand) practioners who has practiced only his traditional forms involving eye-jabbing for his whole life.

Ground arts have four delivery systems: topgame, bottomgame, guardgame, game of being in the guard. If one is missing or not trained enough then the complete game will seriously be lacking (as for example some Sambo where they have a very lacking game of guardpassing because they only try to do leglocks).

Sport karate and Taekwondo have a bit different delivery systems than boxing, kickboxing etc. And again different delivery systems than traditional shotokan karate-do for example...

Pheew... I think that's enough for now...

gilsinnj
06-08-2004, 08:06 PM
We practice this on occaision, and the defence usually involves an open palm atemi to the middle of the back or back of the neck (back of the nexk being the most effective but least practiced in the dojo) as you tenkan to the side. It isn't the best response, but it work pretty well to move your attackers mind. Then you can move into other techniques from there usually doing some form of kokyu-nage.

With an experienced wrestler or ground martial arts practitioner, it may be difficult to do this. As nagi, you will need to be very relaxed and able to move from one-point quickly (not necessarily fast).

Budd
06-09-2004, 06:53 AM
I may have glossed over this in my previous post, but I want to add that, in my opinion, it's critical that if you are practicing defenses against a leg-shoot (double leg, single leg, low single, etc) that, regardless of the specific defense, you are practicing against an uke that knows how to deliver a strong, legitimate attack. I've seen plenty of 'defense against leg-shots' that amount to uke attempting a clumsy tackle, which gives nage all the time in the world to respond.

Of course, I also think the same thing regarding defenses to punches and kicks, but I'm funny that way.

drDalek
06-09-2004, 07:28 AM
<bunch of good stuff about delivery systems for different arts>



I agree with you fully, the fact that Aikido is not practiced in a sparring, competitive way against other Aikidoka and in tournaments against other arts is a huge detriment to the average Aikidoka who plans on using what he knows in a "fight"

The techniques themselves, the locks and throws and pins of Aikido are all extremely effective, if you practice them in the context of a good "deliver system" (I like to call it fighting strategy) because there is nothing technically and conceptually wrong with the techniques of Aikido.

The footwork should be the basis of the Aikido delivery system but as can be seen in most martial arts, when martial artists compete for real against each other, the fancy techniques go flying out the window and whats left looks like some sub or superset of kickboxing (in the case of striking arts like karate, boxing, kung fu) or like some sub or superset of amateur (as opposed to WWF style pro wrasslin') wrestling (in the case of grappling arts)

The problem comes in when people try and fit Aikido into and around this "fighting context", all Aikido techniques rely on a fine degree of timing, distance, timing, relaxation and did I mention timing. In the grip of an adrenaline dump, timing and relaxation go out the window and there are no large muscle group techniques to fall back on like the case with striking and grappling arts (where strength and/or striking power has value in the respective delivery system)

This is where the footwork comes back into the picture, its not just to get you offline I believe, its to allow you to "catch your breath" even while somebody is attacking you. The purpose of footwork is evading the initial attack with a secodary purpose of putting you into a better tactical advantage. If you can keep evading until you are in just the right place, at just the right moment and after the biggest effects of the adrenaline has passed, Aikido happens.

The best thing to do with threads like these "what technique works against this other technique or attack?" is to frame the question in the following way: "how does Aikido's delivery system / fighting strategy/ fundamental principles deal with this technique or attack?" and answer it out of your own experience.

Budd
06-09-2004, 07:32 AM
I think it's worth adding that I don't really think it's totally necessary, per se, to learn good defenses against takedowns, in order to be an accomplished aikidoka. If your primary interest in aikido is just to study the discipline, then you may never come across defenses to leg-shoots, clinch-throws and/or retracting strikes from persons that really know how to deliver said techniques. I think it was George Ledyard Sensei that wrote that your chances of being attacked by a Royce Gracie-level opponent are pretty slim. I agree with this, in principle, since I don't find it likely that Bruce Baumgartner or Aleksandr Karelin will suddenly be stalking you in an alley with intent to crush you with leg-shots and hip-throws.

Having said that, I think that grappling is an excellent skill to learn. As I lament the demise of college-level wrestling programs across the country, I wonder at the number of times I hear people say, "That's just wrestling." or "Wrestling's just a sport!" or "If someone's attacking you, they're probably bigger and wrestling won't help you anyway!". That's what I've heard about wrestling, but I've heard similar things about judo, sambo, Brazilian jiu jitsu, etc. Even though they've been shows to be effective in "NHB" type contests, they're still dismissed as having less value as martial arts (I've heard folks refuse to acknowledge wrestling as a martial art) because they are most often viewed through the lens of 'sport'.

I'm not looking to stir up the 'sport' vs. 'street' debate. My argument is more along the lines that having a basic grappling game is something that's only going to enhance any other martial skills you may possess. Ellis Amdur Sensei writes better than I ever could about the virtues of teaching children to grapple (http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=159) as a preparation tool for arts, like aikido, that are more complex in both philosophy and technique. As for the arguments of wieght classes, men vs. women, etc. I think there's validity there, but let me ask you this, "If you're caught unarmed by someone larger that's trying to grapple with you, wouldn't having grappling skills allow you to put to more advantageous use your restraining, striking and/or weapons work?"

Chris Birke
06-09-2004, 05:48 PM
If someone went for my legs, I would sprawl, crossface, and stand up.

Attacking someone who is shooting for you will only ensure that they take you down. Tried this many times, blows don't work nearly as well as sprawls. A blow may stop the shot 1 out of 20 times, a sprawl 10 of 20. You can always sprawl, then deliver a much stronger blow. To not do the latter strikes me as ignorance.

Because a sprawl has left your opponent uninjured and distressed, in combat you may then hold the head down and knee it, shove the head down, stand, and soccer kick it, or perhaps repeatedly drop elbows to the cervical spine. This should quickly induce unconsciousness or death, and is the effect you were going for when you tried to knee the shoot, so you should now be quite happy to implement it from crossface.

In multiple people situations, I would still sprawl, crossface, and stand up.

Also, I will do this, call it a sprawl, and teach people to do this. Whether or not it is Aikido is not a question.

Ron Tisdale
06-10-2004, 02:23 PM
Whether or not it is Aikido is not a question.

Well, semantically speaking, it is a question...but you may find it not worth asking... :)

Or maybe the answer is just obvious to you?

Its definately a tool to be aware of, in my mind.
RT

Michael Neal
06-10-2004, 03:25 PM
Striking is bad strategy unless you are sure you can knock them out in 1 hit. Even if you hit them they are still going to get your legs and take you down. Just watch the original Ultimate Fighting Championships for proof of this point.

In Judo, double leg takedowns very rarely work for a few reasons 1) we are used to sprawling
2) uchi mata is a great counter throw 3) If you can get a grip on him it is near impossible for him to pull it off.

So if you know somoene is likely to do a double leg takedown then DO NOT keep the typical Aikido distance, close in and get grips on him and sprawl and/or counter. You must be aggressive in this situation and not stand back and wait for him to attack. If you catch him and he is in the typical bent over wrestling stance try some sacrifice thows or an uchimata if you know it.
You can also push his face into the mat and then go for a rear choke of your choice.

This is must be practiced often with full out resistance to get it down though.

JasonFDeLucia
06-12-2004, 08:21 PM
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?
depending at what point in 'mai' you perceive the shot and what your tendancy is predominantly,all techniques of aikido work well ,and never rule out the sprawl ,for if you continue from sprawl into waza ,the sprawl will serve as a blending technique as well as tratitional 'tai no henka'.also note that there are a number of techniques from 'kito ryu' ,a derivative
of judo and aikido(as well as many others),
'mizu guruma',would be best described as double timed stepping sprawl,and as the name 'water wheel' implies ,under the force of gravity you make your move.stepping in the gradient of gravity.a very controlled sprawl.in fact the name 'kito' means to rise and ''fall''.

L. Camejo
06-12-2004, 08:37 PM
Then there's the option of using the sprawl as an effective and effecient means of getting into hanza handachi and applying the technique from there - as in the case of ude hineri.

Just my 2 cents.
LC:ai::ki:

Kyri Honigh
06-12-2004, 11:57 PM
Hi,
One of my sempai is also pretty much advanced in bjj, his double leg take down is very annoying if u lack the timing and skills to either totally avoid it or a way to deal with it. I asked myself is it possible to take a position where you are still standing while the attacker fails to perform a takedown? I think I've seen Silva in the ufc do something like it...he's big and one of the most effective strikers against grapplers. So basically what I wanna know is if there's a way to widen ur legs and lower the body, maintaning balance...this could even allow you to snap his neck because his double leg takedown has failed.

Kyri Honigh
06-12-2004, 11:59 PM
Hahah or maybe I have just too much imagination....Sigh

Jorx
06-13-2004, 04:34 AM
3) If you can get a grip on him it is near impossible for him to pull it off.


As far as I know it and have experienced it - this is the main reason.

I would NEVER go voluntarily into hanmi-handachi waza as this is a really inferior position. Plus (It may be my limited Aikido experience but) - to be honest. I've never seen anyone under 2. dan perform hanmi-handachi waza really smooth and with a touch of realism even in Aikido's more or less cooperative and predictable training methods.

From the last post... Pure BJJ guys usually (so your sempai may well be an exeption but USUALLY) do not have a very good double-leg takedown on a reason mentioned above plus the oportunity to pull guard.

Jorx
06-13-2004, 04:39 AM
I think I've seen Silva in the ufc do something like it...he's big and one of the most effective strikers against grapplers. So basically what I wanna know is if there's a way to widen ur legs and lower the body, maintaning balance...

Aha... Kyri what else I wanted to say... Silva is also a bjj blackbelt and has exellent takedown defence and knowledge. Plus he has apes in his family line couple of generations nearer than most of us do :D (no disrespect, I've heard his a really nice and intelligent guy outside the ring and mma context though that's just what I've heard).

If you just lower your centre and widen your legs then you will be either:
a) took down with a double leg when the opponent has some mass and can drive you well (because you didn't throw your hips away as in sprawl
b) he will transfer to a single leg takedown (as your legs are wide apart it's easy) and you will be taken down with one of the finishes there are from single leg.

L. Camejo
06-13-2004, 07:32 AM
I would NEVER go voluntarily into hanmi-handachi waza as this is a really inferior position. Plus (It may be my limited Aikido experience but) - to be honest. I've never seen anyone under 2. dan perform hanmi-handachi waza really smooth and with a touch of realism even in Aikido's more or less cooperative and predictable training methods.


Neither would I, but I've found that it is a very good way to add a lot of weight power to a standing technique by dropping one's weight. From my experience I've never had to resort to hanza handachi to deal with a double leg, since my ude hineri always does the job. The hanza handachi is the fallback in the event I'm off on timing. There is no loss of balance in this transition on the part of Tori, so the same degree of control is maintained.

Personally I don't see the big problem for certain skilled Aikidoka to deal with a DLT. Just my personal opinion.

LC:ai::ki:

Jorx
06-13-2004, 08:05 AM
Neither would I, but I've found that it is a very good way to add a lot of weight power to a standing technique by dropping one's weight. From my experience I've never had to resort to hanza handachi to deal with a double leg, since my ude hineri always does the job.

How good have been the takedowns? Practiced in a fighting situation with a uncooperative unpredictable partner or just standing there waiting for him to shoot.

Anyhow... I am curious on the ude-hineri. Could you find some pictures (the technique against a double-leg or if not possible then something else) as the terminology varies between schools and styles and I've not yet come upon a technique called ude-hineri. Though I'm pretty much certain it is something I know under another name.
:confused:

L. Camejo
06-13-2004, 01:20 PM
How good have been the takedowns? Practiced in a fighting situation with a uncooperative unpredictable partner or just standing there waiting for him to shoot.

This has been in friendly sparring matches with jujutsu pals to get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the different styles. So it can be said that the situation was uncooperative and unpredictable, but not a "fight" as I define it. If I were fighting then I would not be using Aikido.:)

Anyhow... I am curious on the ude-hineri. Could you find some pictures (the technique against a double-leg or if not possible then something else) as the terminology varies between schools and styles and I've not yet come upon a technique called ude-hineri. Though I'm pretty much certain it is something I know under another name.
:confused:

Ude Hineri is known as kaiten nage in its form as a throw in most schools. As it manipulates the elbow and shoulder it's called ude hineri in Shodokan and works as a lock, pin, takedown or throw. Some form of it is existent in most grappling systems. Against a thrust a basic version of it can be found here (http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm) . The one shown is a basic kata version, the one I use tends to enter below the arm instead of above. The ending pin is similar to this (http://ttac.0catch.com/Images/udehineri%20pin.jpg)

Of course this is only one technique that works. Depending on how the attacker reacts to being engaged and the size/skill of the Aikidoka a different technique may be more viable.

Just my 2 cents. I don't think any technique is foolproof or uncounterable. It just depends on the quality of execution and the confidence of the practitioner in his technique.

LC:ai::ki:

Chad Sloman
06-13-2004, 01:54 PM
Hey thanks, Larry, that's pretty cool, I never thought of that, I'm definitely going to have to try that next time I'm grappling

Jorx
06-13-2004, 02:30 PM
This has been in friendly sparring matches with jujutsu pals to get a feel for the strengths and weaknesses of the different styles. So it can be said that the situation was uncooperative and unpredictable, but not a "fight" as I define it. If I were fighting then I would not be using Aikido.

Very good then...
What I understand as fighting is that not only he but you as well are trying to "win". So the aggression is not only one-sided.


Ude Hineri...

Yep I know it as kaite-nage some versions ude-garami but who cares :confused: There's one version that is called kaitenamagate or something :confused:

But I think it's really hard to get the arm when someone is going for the tackle...

L. Camejo
06-13-2004, 02:50 PM
Very good then...
What I understand as fighting is that not only he but you as well are trying to "win". So the aggression is not only one-sided.

Well that is... interesting. In my understanding one does not have to be aggressive to win, and being aggressive does not necessarily have anything to do with fighting. To me "fight" connotes "struggle". Aggression or lack of it is more a part of one's strategy, not an indicator of what a fight is or is not imho. Also, one can be aggressive without showing it outwardly. I have been in physically aggressive engagements on and off the mat, and so far I have not "fought" yet imo. I merely dealt with the attack and found an end to the conflict. Imho, if one allows himself to get into the "fight" mode, then its time to switch tactics as the Aikido initiative is already lost.

But I think it's really hard to get the arm when someone is going for the tackle...

Like I said in an earlier post, it all comes down to who is doing the technique and what he/she has going for him. There are people that cannot make this technique work in this situation simply because of physics, but they may be able to get others off. Most dojos I know of don't train to be effective against this sort of attack, as such, application can be difficult, but it does not make it impossible. This is the same technique alluded to earlier by Mark Barlow of Akayama Ryu Jujutsu, a system which I also study.

The way I do it I don't need to "get" the arm, its already coming at me with the body, I just manouver it where I want to before the DLT has properly set. Different dojos teach this technique differently and that can have a lot to do with what works against what attack and what doesn't.

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Greg Jennings
06-13-2004, 03:04 PM
In the version that I've seen Barlow Sensei demonstrate, one doesn't grasp the arm. One "counter shoots" and meets the shooter at an angle.

So, your initial position is slightly to one side with the shoulder on that side bracing into the shooter.

You put your arm on that side under the shooter's arm and up his back. Your other hand, the far hand, controls the shooter's head.

You then turn into the shooter with your nearside hip and lift on the arm under his arm/up his back and push his head down at the same time.

I usually end up in a side mount or north/south.

FWIW,

L. Camejo
06-13-2004, 03:16 PM
Exactly Greg. Much of Akayama Ryu's Aiki waza comes from Tomiki Aikido, so the approach is very very similar. In fact, entering at an angle is very important to not get caught in the attacker's shoot imo.

What you said above is almost exactly how I do it. At the point where you go into the side mount I spiral em face first into the floor and lock up the shoulder.

Akayama Ryu also has a choke hold that they can apply from that position as well. Kinda hard to describe though.

It's all good.:)
LC:ai::ki:

Neil Mick
06-13-2004, 07:33 PM
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?

I am not really sure what you mean by "double leg takedown," except from a Capoeira perspective (which, I studied for about 41/2 years, and as a "side-Art" to Aikido)>

In Capoeira, you have a type of scissors take-down (called "Tesoura," "T" sounds like a "J") where the attacker levers the opponent over onto this back, front leg in the belly, back-leg behind the knee's. "Uke" spins his hips toward "nage," to get the torque needed.

Done fast enough, it is very effective, and flattens the target on his back. The trouble is, "uke" is tangled in his target's legs. But, this fall often stuns the opponent, for a moment.

My Aiki-response to Tesoura, would be to turn around and run. :) My martial response, would be the same thing a Capoeirista does--either deepen the stance, get out of the way (usually too late, with a competent Capoeirista), or get down on the floor (Capoeira often has stylized groundfighting, but it's unlikely to be used, in a "real" fight).

My 2 cents.

Jorx
06-14-2004, 04:50 AM
In Capoeira, you have a type of scissors take-down (called "Tesoura," "T" sounds like a "J") where the attacker levers the opponent over onto this back, front leg in the belly, back-leg behind the knee's. "Uke" spins his hips toward "nage," to get the torque needed.


That's not a double leg takedown that was meant here. Sounds more like scissor-sweep from bjj which also has several contras.

What I like about capoeira is that none of the practioners I've met claims it to be self-defence effective (exept for the increased coordination and flexibility). But that's another subject.

L. Camejo
06-14-2004, 06:36 AM
What I like about capoeira is that none of the practioners I've met claims it to be self-defence effective (exept for the increased coordination and flexibility). But that's another subject.

It is another subject, but like Aikido it depends on how one trains Capoeira and their objectives.

As far as effectiveness in self defence goes, Capoeira has been used as a weapon in successful slave revolts in Brazil during the 1600's, as we can see here (http://www.bama.ua.edu/~milto002/revolts.htm) so I don't think it's totally useless as self defence.

Just a few thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Ron Tisdale
06-14-2004, 07:13 AM
typical bent over wrestling stance

Uhh, hmm, you mean during the shoot? Most good coaches don't teach a bent over posture while shooting in wrestling...not even in high school. How experienced are the wrestlers you've known?

Typically I've seen people bend their knees to lower their hips, and shoot in with the back pretty straight...after an effective sprawl their back won't be vertical anymore, but they don't start out that way. What you describe sounds more like at 'tackle'...

If there is no great size differential, the tackle is relatively easy to defend against, as uke's posture is already broken once contact is made. A proper shot is much harder to defend against.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
06-14-2004, 07:19 AM
also note that there are a number of techniques from 'kito ryu' ,a derivative
of judo and aikido(as well as many others),

Copied or adapted from others: a highly derivative prose style.
n.
Something derived.
Linguistics. A word formed from another by derivation, such as electricity from electric

I'm confused...are you saying kito ryu is derived from aikido and judo (which would be impossible as neither judo nor aikido existed before kito ryu), or are you saying aikido and judo are derived from kito ryu? If the later, what evidence do you have that aikido has any relation to any koryu other than Daito ryu? I haven't seen much of anything at all to suggest a relationship to kito ryu.

Just currious,
Ron

Chad Sloman
06-14-2004, 10:56 AM
Ron, good point on the bent back difference between tackle and shoot. My friend that grapples showed me that. He keeps his back straight and gets low with his hips and knees (almost like shikko (sp?)). He also tries to not let his head get to one side or the other to help prevent the guillotine.

Also I've read that O'Sensei actually studied Yagyu Ryu as well as Daito Ryu and also judo, along with the various other weapon arts. I've never seen Yagyu Ryu so I don't know if we share techniques or not.

Chad Sloman
06-14-2004, 10:59 AM
http://www.desruisseaux.com/aikido/...ido-osensei.htm

It was during this first stay in Tokyo that Morihei began his study of the martial arts, learning traditional Tenshin Shinyo jujutsu from the Kito school (Tokusaburo Tojawa Sensei) and Shinkage kenjustsu. Morihei was attached to the 37th regiment of the fourth Division in Osaka, where he was nicknamed "the King of Soldiers" because of his skills with the bayonet, the juken-jutsu. He was sent to the front during the Russo-Japanese War in 1904, and returned having been promoted sergeant for outstanding bravery in the field. He also studied the Goto-ha Yagyu-ryu jujutsu style (Masakatsu Nakai Sensei) in Sakai during this period. He was discharged from the army in 1907 and returned to Tanabe where he worked on the family farm. During this period, Morihei studied the Kodokan style of judo (Kiyoichi Takagi Sensei) in a barn he converted into a dojo. During this period, Morihei made the acquaintance of Sokaku Takeda Sensei, a well known master of Daito-ryu jujutsu. This was to be the first of two significant encounters in the life of O-Sensei that would change it forever. He became his student and gained a certificate in Daito-ryu jujutsu after an intensive training. The techniques he learned then with Sokaku Takeda were to be an inspiration for the foundation of Aikido. In 1921, Kisshomaru Ueshiba was born. Morihei practice of the martial arts gradually began to take on a spiritual character. This led him little by little to break away from the conventions of Yagyu-ryu and Daito-ryu jujutsu, and to develop his own original approach. In 1922 this approach was formally named aiki-bujutsu.

Greg Jennings
06-14-2004, 12:36 PM
Hi Chad,

You need to spend some time digging into the history above. There are inaccuracies and some important details are left out.

Dig around in Stanley Pranin's articles and books. Differentiate between what Stanley says and when he quotes someone else.

Best regards,

Ron Tisdale
06-14-2004, 12:45 PM
In addition, just look at the techniques...Daito ryu, and daito ryu only as far as I can see for the unarmed techniques. When Ueshiba was first teaching at the kobukan, what licenses was he handing out? Daito ryu...nothing else.

Ron

Michael Neal
06-14-2004, 08:38 PM
Uhh, hmm, you mean during the shoot? Most good coaches don't teach a bent over posture while shooting in wrestling...not even in high school. How experienced are the wrestlers you've known?

No I said if you catch him in a failed atempt you will have them a bit forward and off balance for uchimata or you can push their face into the mat and go for a choke. In general though, wrestlers do tend to have a bent over posture, especially after a failed attempt at a takedown, which is great for sacrifice throws or any good forward throw for that matter.

Remember guys that Aikido does use some of the same sacrifice throws used in Judo, these work wonders on grapplers who push forward into you. It is much easier to doa sprawl, forward throw, or sacrifice than try something like kaitenage.

Michael Neal
06-14-2004, 08:49 PM
If you are not expecting the shoot I would say with confidence that it is near impossible to do anything like Kaitenage, striking, etc. Sprawling is effective because it is one simple movement that can be done almost instantly with practice. After the sprawl he will be open to a variety of techniques. I would use this discussion as an incentive to practice some of the less practiced aspects of Aikido: Chokes, sacrifice throws, etc. they are part of Aikido after all.

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2004, 07:29 AM
I disagree...depending on how well trained certain reactions are. If the reaction for the 45 degree pivot and crossface are well trained, I believe that would give someone a fair chance of pulling off most if not all of the different aikido techniques (though I have serious reservations about striking until the tackle or shot has been thwarted). I still think the sprawl would have a higher percentage against trained fighters in a UFC environment, or wrestlers at the high school or college level though. But against a less polished tackle attempt (as opposed to a well trained shot with good posture) there are methods in aikido that work just fine. Its more a matter of having the reactions properly trained depending on the environment.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
06-15-2004, 07:32 AM
No I said if you catch him in a failed atempt

Ahh, no you just added the words in bold. Yes, if it is a failed attempt, he probably will be bent over...if he doesn't switch off to the single, or just keep driving in for the double.

Ron

Michael Neal
06-15-2004, 08:53 AM
Yes I added those words to further explain what I meant by catching him. If you catch him it obviously was a failed attempt.

Mark Tennenhouse
08-08-2004, 08:56 PM
I've done some wrestling and judo but I really like the aikido answer to a tackle best. In wrestling there is a move called a whipover which you can see at themat.com. In aikido, we are actually using a variation on it called kaiten-nage. But, realistically, you have to do at least a half sprawl and use forward hip pressure to prevent Uke from pulling your legs in and to give you time to drive your arm underneath Uke's armpit. Unlike the wrestling sprawl and whipover, you don't have to bury Uke's head under your belly in the aiki version. But Uke's head will be below tori's chest. Then, tori can push uke's head down while driving up and over with the underhook forcing Uke into a somersault..This works against realistic wrestling attacks and it's on mario Sperry's Vale Tudo tapes. The purist aikido concept of never slowing down an attack and throwing at the instant of entry is extremely hard to live by. However, by using a half sprawl and hip pressure, Kaiten nage becomes a realistic solution to single and double leg tackles and is in keeping with the aiki principle of using the circle and uke's power to project him into a fall.
does that solve the question of multiple attackers? I'd say it does because it doesn't take much time to get the underhook and it keeps uke moving forward after a slight delay.
Mark T

Lyle Laizure
08-08-2004, 10:06 PM
Don't be there.

Jorx
08-09-2004, 01:44 PM
Don't be there.

Yes. Be safely in your home... Fighting is dangerous. Don't be there out in the streets...

I really hope you didn't mean that in "step out of the way" context.

senseimike
08-12-2004, 10:02 PM
Yes. Be safely in your home... Fighting is dangerous. Don't be there out in the streets...

I really hope you didn't mean that in "step out of the way" context.
I'm sure he did mean to stay home. A dead bolt lock and heavy furniture in front of the door is a good idea too.

Lyle Laizure
08-12-2004, 11:24 PM
Yes. Be safely in your home... Fighting is dangerous. Don't be there out in the streets...

I really hope you didn't mean that in "step out of the way" context.

Hmmmmm. Sometime it no pay to get outta bed. I think a lot of time an answer is more than what appear. Like when sensei demonstrate technique and tell all to practice but depend on who you are what you really see. For Jorgan, this is more expanded version of "don't be there."

In the classroom, “don’t be there” is simple enough to understand. When the attack arrives, you simply aren’t there to receive it as it is intended. Moving in, stepping out, or turning your body will accomplish this easy enough. Outside of the dojo, this continues to apply but expands to be more preventative.

If you have a choice to take a lit walkway and a dark wooded path and you choose the dark wooded path then you are taking a more dangerous path than necessary and thus not achieving “don’t be there.” It is about the choices we make every day. By consciously considering the possible consequences of our choices “don’t be there” can avoid a lot of unnecessary, potentially dangerous situations.

CNYMike
09-04-2004, 05:27 PM
I have been wondering, and trying to extrapolate from my limited knowledge of AIKIDO a response to a double-leg-takedown. Any suggestions?

Another thing to consider, at least as a starting point, is ukemi waza. They're not just breakfalls for landing safely; they contain the seeds for the counters to the techniques. So if all else fails, remember how to land and how to roll; think of it as a way to "blend" with the take down and work from there. Remember your aiki principles.

Have fun.

Hormat ...

Mas Mike

sjm924
09-05-2004, 03:38 AM
Jorgen,

There are reasons for why we wear dogi at my dojo. There are reasons why we practice barefoot (as "unrealistic" as it might seem for a "real fight"), and also reasons why we practice knee-walking and kneeling techniques and accordingly these things are interrelated. But if you don't know or understand the relationship between something like training barefoot and knee-walking (don't feel bad, many people don't) then perhaps you may not be qualified to criticise these methods. . . after all, how can you claim to be wiser than 2000 years of R & D?

Anyhow, what would I do if someone tried a DLT on me? Who the hell knows. I would go down. Then what? Maybe a guillotine choke or an arm-bar would pop out of my muscle-memory (another bonus to doing a technique thousands of times, in a formal manner). *Gasp* . . . an aikidoka with ground skills?? Shioda Sensei didn't go far from aikido's roots, and that's a good thing.

Chad Sloman
09-05-2004, 11:58 AM
This thread just won't die.........

In July I happened to visit a friend of mine in Orlando who is a amateur freestyle wrestler and we worked out. Partly because of this thread and some others at the time, I actually got him to freestyle spar with me, wrestling vs. aikido. And I did try some different things against the shoot. What I gathered, and which is no surprise to me, is that the sprawl is the easiest method to use. I learned that in aikido we generally try to keep our opponents at arm's length and only come into clinch range after we've taken their balance to some extent, this method of evasion worked pretty well. What worked for me also was tenchinage/iriminage where I caught him as soon as he was shooting in. But if I was too slow and he got a hold of an ankle, then I was toast. It should be noted that I didn't use any atemi waza as he is my friend and we weren't striking each other which probably would have been in my favor. All in all, I'd say it was 50/50 aikido vs. wrestling. And for you nay-sayers who will say that he probably wasn't that good, he took second place last year in the Florida state amateur wrestling competitions, and he's a little over 200 lbs. So take that for what it's worth.

Wil Branca
10-02-2004, 02:15 AM
Go for the trusty "Sprawl & Choke"... ;)

* I'm partial to a good, old-fashioned Adam's apple aqueeze myself (it tends to REALLY freak people out).

Hold for 15 seconds.
Release.
Take assailant's wallet.
By your favorite gal a new dress!

If you're squeamish about crushing someone's larynx, I SUPPOSE a traditional jugular cut-off type choke might be more humane.

To each his own... :rolleyes:

:circle:

Shane Mokry
10-07-2004, 09:39 PM
I tried the double leg takedown on one of my teachers a long time ago. It was real sneaky too. I went for the face and as soon as he started breaking balance I disengaged and went for the takedown. I was immedietely in a rear naked choke with my balance broken so that I was literally hanging myself.

I tapped out. :dead:

Shane :)

Raziel
10-13-2004, 11:57 AM
I heard my friend said that most of the (not all) fast Taekwondo kick is not so pwerful, even it's fast, but wouldn't hurt too much if kick on you. No idea if this is true.

Pankration90
10-29-2004, 12:47 PM
Sprawling doesn't always put both people flat on the ground. A sprawl is basically just moving your legs and hips away from the opponent quickly while pushing your weight into him (stopping the shoot and making sure he can't get a grip on your legs). A double leg takedown, when stopped, doesn't always leave them over extended. Many times they are left in a crouched position (with one or both legs still under them for the most part) and some degree of balance. When you sprawl in a situation like this, neither of you are flat on the ground. Your legs and hips are still sprawled back and you are still resting your weight on the opponent, but you can easily disengage and move away or do any number of things.

When doing sub grappling, we almost never got them flat on the ground when we sprawled. They were usually in the crouched position I described above. From there, I would usually try and go for a guillotine. If that wasn't working, I would pull them back into my guard and stretch them out, and eventually sweep them. I wouldn't pull guard in a street fight, but I was just using that as an example of situations where they aren't flat on the ground (if they are flat on the ground, taking their back or just getting up are easy, but you can't pull guard when someone is already laying down ;) ).

Michael Hackett
10-29-2004, 01:53 PM
Played with this last night after class for a few minutes with a friend who is nidan in aikido and now studying BJJ as well. Two things worked well when I went in for the takedown: an atemi in the form of a knee to the face; and a strong irimi movement, a tenkan, and then iriminage. We played with a kaitenage-like technique too a couple of times that seemed to have promise. As I would start for the takedown, he would get off-line and push down and in on my head as he lifted on my nearside arm. It was very natural to continue my attack on his single leg when he got off line and shifting to the single leg had the effect of almost breaking my balance. With a little urging I was gone. Not pretty, but it was fun to experiment with a little.

Aristeia
10-29-2004, 02:15 PM
Hi Michael
As an aside do you have much experience performing the double leg takedown? I mean it's great that you're experimenting this stuff, and heaps of fun :)
But just keep aware that any counters you come up with in these sessions have to be taken with a little pinch of salt unless the person doing the shot has some experience in it.
It's a bit like a couple of karate-ka's playing with a wristlock and deciding it's not effective because they'd just punch their way out. They may well do so the way they were doing it, but would struggle a bit more with that strategy against an experienced aikidoka who is taking balance, blending etc.

If you do have experience in performing the double leg, forget everything I just said.

Michael Hackett
10-29-2004, 03:47 PM
Mr. Fooks,

Your point is well taken. The double leg takedown was my favorite technique in four years of scholastic wrestling and a couple more years in intramural wrestling, largely because of my relative short stature. It used to work really well for me. As I mentioned, we were just playing with the DLT and going pretty easily. My sempai is very skilled and cat-like, so it probably wasn't the greatest match-up around either. Sort of a dump truck racing a Ferrari. With the exception of the knee to the face atemi, Nage would have to be both quick and skilled to pull off the other techniques I mentioned.

rob_liberti
11-23-2004, 10:17 AM
I would like to comment on a few points.

>Use what works, that to me is "aiki".
It is ironic to read such a "surface level" understanding of a word that means "depth".

>your delivery system must be very solid and only way to get it solid is to train it with uncooperative partner with unpredictable movement

The "only way"?! Here is my way: Practice applying aikido principles with a cooperative partner with predictable movements. Slowly but surely increase the speed, make the movements less predicable, and increase the resistance - UNTIL you can get it so solid that it works well with uncooperative attackers using unpredicatable movements.

--
Stabbington Hoboneas Esq III wrote:
In the grip of an adrenaline dump, timing and relaxation go out the window and there are no large muscle group techniques to fall back on like the case with striking and grappling arts (where strength and/or striking power has value in the respective delivery system)

This is where the footwork comes back into the picture, its not just to get you offline I believe, its to allow you to "catch your breath" even while somebody is attacking you. The purpose of footwork is evading the initial attack with a secodary purpose of putting you into a better tactical advantage. If you can keep evading until you are in just the right place, at just the right moment and after the biggest effects of the adrenaline has passed, Aikido happens.

The best thing to do with threads like these "what technique works against this other technique or attack?" is to frame the question in the following way: "how does Aikido's delivery system / fighting strategy/ fundamental principles deal with this technique or attack?" and answer it out of your own experience.
--
That was really well thought out and I wanted to comment on it as well. I specifically train large muscle group movements primarily, and then add smaller movements like wrist locks or whatever as a secondary movement on top of the primary movement. In the heat of the rush, I'm confident that what I'm teaching will still be available. We spend time minimizing these movements in terms of efficiency - but we also challenge things (in a level appropriate way) and have the fall back of making the movements bigger when things start to fall apart. This accomplishes training to get the most bang for your buck with a fall back, as well as making the movements a big as possible - while maintaining that fragile connection for aiki to really understand what we are doing.

I don't know if this is a "delivery system" per se, but I think it is reasonable and builds effectiveness in increasingly escalated situations.

Rob

rachel
11-23-2004, 10:27 AM
I'm only shodan in Aikido, but I have just begun taking Judo as well (it's kind of required in my university...) and, just the other day, we did a double-leg take down. My partner couldn't throw me, no matter how hard he tried. His timing was good and he basically doing it correctly. The problem was that either his leg would just bounce off of mine (my ki is so strong :) j/k) or I would just remove me leg a moment before he tried to swipe it. I could then easily couter-swipe. I guess all I'm saying is that my Aikido training defeated the double-leg take down! :)

paw
11-23-2004, 11:50 AM
The problem was that either his leg would just bounce off of mine (my ki is so strong :) j/k) or I would just remove me leg a moment before he tried to swipe it. I could then easily couter-swipe.

What you're describing doesn't sound like a double. He shouldn't be swiping at a leg, instead the point of impact should be his shoulders against your thighs.

Pictorially, you can find an example here (http://www.lesgutches.com/techniques/double.htm)

Note in the link, Gutches takes his opponent face first directly to the ground. For judo, there's no reason why he couldn't lift and slam his opponent instead.


Regards,

Paul

rob_liberti
11-23-2004, 01:16 PM
Great example! I would say that the guy getting thrown looks a lot more like the uke in the first picture.

I used to let the students just pick any of the weapons kata - from the same initial attack and practice adjusting in the moment to each kata. That wasn't too dificult to achieve; but then, I used to have a really hard time adjusting to any kata AND any variation because while the changes between each kata was a much more major movement, the changes from the variations were much smaller movements.

The answer finally came to me as I got a lot better at multiple attack. I learned to not directly face the attacker - like a deer in headlights. I'm always just a little turn off from them (which I create from my stance). By doing this, I can move much more freely and respond/react much more quickly.

So from my persepctive, it looks like the guy in those pictures who gets taken down by the double leg takedown has lost the encounter before it ever began.

It would have been incredibly hard for me to have worked this understanding out (and many other subtle things I learned using the cooperative/level-appropriate model) if I were in constant competition while training.

I think we do need to eventually check out what we are doing - and get more of a reality check - but not every day. And not before you can at least get what you're doing to be effective against cooperative partners who are giving you a lot of full-body resistance.

Rob