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David Yap
05-31-2004, 10:15 PM
Hi all,

Just want to share your thoughts on this. Treat this as a test on your understanding of aikido. Hence, no links or reference to other websites please.

In the old old days, students who trained with O Sensei would normally have prior training/exposure in other MA disciplines: kendo, judo, jujitsu, karate and even sumo. One day a senior uchideshi had asked O Sensei where do the 3 concepts of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen be applied in aikido. For this question, O Sensei chided the senior uchideshi for not knowing the meaning aikido despite training for long time.

Why was O Sensei angry? (Clue: a long-time student was even "ex-communicated" by O Sensei's for going against his teachings).

This "test" preferably is for san-dan & below.

Thanking you, in anticipation, for your respond.

Regards

David

Bronson
05-31-2004, 10:54 PM
Why was O Sensei angry?

Because he didn't know the answer either? :D evileyes :D

Bronson

PeterR
05-31-2004, 11:11 PM
David;

As long as you realize your own Aikido understanding is being tested.

Largo
06-01-2004, 01:18 AM
that's weird. I posted, but it didn't seem to send. Anyways, here's another shot.

The 3 principles you mentioned are present althroughout aikido and other martial arts as well. Not knowing that answer would indicate a lack of awareness of an opponent's movement, intention, or aims. It's hard to blend if you can't feel (or sense) someone's energy. If you can't do that, than no technique will really work. (other than the lucky punch)

Well...that's my guess.

David Yap
06-01-2004, 03:02 AM
David;

As long as you realize your own Aikido understanding is being tested.

Hi Peter,

Yes. I do realize that my understanding of aikido is also being tested. I hope the response here will further widen my understanding of the art and enhance my communication skills on aikido.

Regards

David

tiyler_durden
06-01-2004, 06:01 AM
Hey,

Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!

Thus Osensei became angry as the senior should have know this!

is this right?

Thanks
T.D (the limited poster)

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 08:58 AM
Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!

See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique.

RT

Doka
06-01-2004, 11:44 AM
Is it because there is no Attack in Aikido,it is the way of harmony.In saying this it would go against all of his teachings!!

Ignore Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! There is attack in Aikido. Just look at some video clips of O'Sensei to see him move off-line and then attack his Uke! I think there is a clip of that on this site.

Don_Modesto
06-01-2004, 02:03 PM
Who was "ex-commincated"?

Answer: It's a trick question: Osensei was never angry. He was possessed by KAMI on occasion, but never angry himself.

John Boswell
06-01-2004, 02:14 PM
As I begin looking up, down, left, right, in front and behind me... I then take three steps to the side and point at Sensei Don.

"He said it!"

/point Don

/point Don

:D

shihonage
06-01-2004, 02:32 PM
Hi all,

Just want to share your thoughts on this. Treat this as a test on your understanding of aikido. Hence, no links or reference to other websites please.

In the old old days, students who trained with O Sensei would normally have prior training/exposure in other MA disciplines: kendo, judo, jujitsu, karate and even sumo. One day a senior uchideshi had asked O Sensei where do the 3 concepts of go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen be applied in aikido. For this question, O Sensei chided the senior uchideshi for not knowing the meaning aikido despite training for long time.

Why was O Sensei angry?

Because he had a fight with his wife earlier in the day.

Doka
06-01-2004, 03:07 PM
TOTM?

;)

Bronson
06-01-2004, 03:11 PM
Maybe he was constipated, had diarrhea, stubbed his toe, hit himself in the jimmy-junk while tucking his hakama in, or any of the other myriad things that happen to people to put them in a bad mood. :p

Bronson

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 03:14 PM
Nah, it was probably the fight with his wife...O Sensei would NEVER get something so mundane as diarrhea...

Ron (sorry, couldn't help it)

Bronson
06-01-2004, 03:17 PM
O Sensei would NEVER get something so mundane as diarrhea...

That's probably true. He was divine after all....except for that whole unfortunate liver thing.

Bronson

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 03:23 PM
Bronson, I just snorted water out my nose!

To David, the original poster,

I'm sorry if some of our replies come off as a little flippant. I think your post came off as a little strange...why should you wish to 'test' us? Perhaps if you give a better clue of what you are looking for.

Ron

Bronson
06-01-2004, 03:28 PM
Bronson, I just snorted water out my nose!

My work here is done :p

Yes, I'm being flippant. I can't possibly know the reasons O- sensei felt the way he felt. I can't possibly know the reasons my girlfriend feels the way she feels and she's in the next room. I can ask her, I can empathize with her but I can't know...no one can. It's hard enough to try to figure out how to deal with everyday, living peoples feelings and motivations let alone to try to know what somebody as prone to esoterica as O-sensei was thinking decades ago. I can't know so I don't worry about it.

Bronson

Doka
06-01-2004, 03:32 PM
TOTM?

;)

BTW, I meant Mrs. O'Sensei. :)

I don't think even O'Sensei could menstruate!

:D

PeterR
06-01-2004, 08:27 PM
David

My original feeling also and but I got to ask - which senior uchi-deshi was excommunicated?

I think your post came off as a little strange...why should you wish to 'test' us? Perhaps if you give a better clue of what you are looking for.

See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique..

Anyhow - most of this comes from an interview (http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=98)that Ueshiba M. gave relatively late in life where he says the spiritual side is emphasized over the physical. Its pretty clear to me that he is not negating the three timings but says that Aikido has moved beyond it. Since at the highest levels you control uke there is no attack by either uke or nage.

Of course practically speaking we don't train at the highest levels so the three timings have their place.

David Yap
06-01-2004, 10:33 PM
Hi all,

Thanks for all the response thus far. This question wasn't actually meant to be a test test thingy.

I'm sure a lot of us here already knew the answers but I'm just as sure that that there is an equal number of us who don't really know the answer. In my previous post to Peter, I pointed out that in a yudansha exam that I witnessed years ago when I was a raw student, a couple of my instructors failed in their nidan and sandan exams despite what we thought was a flawless and free-flowing techniques. The reason given for the failure by the visiting shihan then was the techniques lacked the essence of aikido. A couple of weeks ago, I watched a demonstration given by the same instructors (who incidentally have passed their exams under a different visiting shihan) and I realized why they failed in the first place. Six years (I estimated) had passed, with the training and instructing, still no spiritual growth. I didn't see any gentleness or compassion, I saw raw physical power. The "jutsu" part of the art was obvious but the "do" part was absolutely missing. Luckily, for us, the next performance given by the two visiting shihan reminded us what really is aikido. My "test" here is not about acknowledge of techniques and Japanese terminology but rather is focus on your passion for the art. If you love the art, then put in the extra effort to find out what it is all about, from all angles. How do the techniques blend with the philosophy? Don't just wait for the kyu/yudansha exams. The test begins the moment we step on the mat: Why I can't move our sempai? Why I can't do it (the technique) with less effort? Am I not extending enough? Why can't I keep my balance after executing a throw? Am I using too much force? etc., etc. If we trying want to move on to being instructors, then we need to test ourselves, widen my understanding of art, accept the truths and discard the misconceptions - that's the path to growth.

Again, this post or "test" is not like the "you must respond" kind of post. It is about O' Sense's aikido. If you do not know, fine, either you do some research/study or just wait for the answer(s) from others who do. Years ago, I torn some ligaments in my knee and couldn't train for three months, yet I attended class and watched every training and found that I actually learned more from watching. I watched the instructors' movements and students' and analyzed what were in the techniques and what weren't. When I recovered from my injury, my techniques were better than before.

As far as contributors or non-contributors for growth is concerned, I quote (with due respect), that three categories:

1. Those who make things happen
2. Those who watch things happened
3. Those who do not know what's happening.

Regards

David

PS. To those of you thought that I've put up a smart-ass thread, again, my humble apology.

David Yap
06-01-2004, 11:47 PM
Yes, it is about attack - the type of attacks that one intends in a competition. So, it has more to do with competitions that O Sensei detested later in his life. In this sense, I need not mention the name of the senior disciple who was "ex-communicated".

Go-no-sen, sen-no-sen and sen-sen-no-sen are fighting/competition strategies/concepts. I first come across these terminologies in kumite (karate competition) training. These concepts are also used in kendo and judo training. Without dwelling into details, in karate competitions, one scope points by landing blows/kicks to specific areas on the opponent's torso or a near/close contact to the head. When faced with an opponent who has a defensive posture and has these target points well guarded, then, one may need to apply tactical measures to bring down the opponent's guard - this may involve feints or presenting an opening to entice the opponent to initiate an attack . Hence, techniques can be categorized (but not exclusive) as Go-no-sen, sen-no-sen or sen-sen-no-sen depending ones intend. In the old old days of sword fighting in Japan, a duel to the death could last hours with the opponents facing each other in guarded stance/posture. Like a game of chess, each knew the game and the strategies awaiting for the wrong move would result in fatality of one.

This maxim from Gichin Funakoshi applies aptly to our jiyu-waza as it would to karate-do: "Create an opening and you would find the technique". With this, I leave it to you to figure out what he meant :)

Regards

David

PeterR
06-02-2004, 12:13 AM
Yes, it is about attack - the type of attacks that one intends in a competition. So, it has more to do with competitions that O Sensei detested later in his life. In this sense, I need not mention the name of the senior disciple who was "ex-communicated".


Maybe you should - because you'ld be wrong.


In spite of this, after Ueshiba's death, Tomiki Sensei was criticised for his actions by the leading members of Aikikai at that time. They demanded that he should stop using the name 'aikido'. I recall Tomiki Sensei's strong reaction, "I have got only one teacher and that is Ueshiba Sensei. Only he can excommunicate me".

When exactly did this ex-communication occur and what is your source for this information?

David Yap
06-02-2004, 12:34 AM
Peter,

Not meant to cross-sword. Notice my usage of the inverted commas " " for implications - not necessary recorded or accurate.

Primarily, the clue was for competition and nothing further.

Regards

David

stuartjvnorton
06-02-2004, 12:36 AM
Hi all,
PS. To those of you thought that I've put up a smart-ass thread, again, my humble apology.

I think I liked it better when it was a smart-ass thread.

Charles Hill
06-02-2004, 03:28 AM
Ignore Aikido and the Dynamic Sphere! There is attack in Aikido. Just look at some video clips of O'Sensei to see him move off-line and then attack his Uke! I think there is a clip of that on this site.

Interestingly, the Founder, himself, said there is no attack in Aikido. I take it as a kind of "koan" that I`ve yet to figure out.

To the original question, it was Okumura Shihan that asked about the various "sen" and the answer (as I remember it) is that there is only one sen. Again, another koan to figure out.

Charles Hill

Ron Tisdale
06-02-2004, 07:52 AM
Maybe you should - because you'ld be wrong.


yup, I'm with Peter on this one. Tomiki Sensei was never 'excommunicated' by Ueshiba. It was after he died that the main split with the aikikai occured, to the best of my knowledge.

There's a problem with a 'test' based on false information. I tried to tell someone else that once...they replied that I 'wasn't looking deep enough'. Hogwash. They just had their facts wrong.

Paul Watt and others have often asked on what basis does someone judge 'spiritual growth' in aikido. I feel led to ask the same question here. Were the uke in that exam injured? Were the yudansha in question members of the mob?

Ron

Yann Golanski
06-02-2004, 09:28 AM
Ron, isn't "spiritual growth" directly proportional to the amount transfered into the sensie's bank account???

</joke>
</sarcasm>
</irony>
</taking'the'piss:cults:Scientology>

NOTE THAT THIS IS A JOKE.... in case I offend anyone: get a sense of humour! Yes, it's spelt with a "U" like colour and flavour and Loure!!!

</more:sarcasm>
</more:irony>

... Hum, maybe I should go back to reading about Bayesian game theory instead of posting here... Yes, I shall do that.

*grin*

Don_Modesto
06-02-2004, 09:47 AM
....I realized why they failed in the first place. Six years (I estimated) had passed, with the training and instructing, still no spiritual growth....If you love the art, then put in the extra effort to find out what it is all about, from all angles. How do the techniques blend with the philosophy? Don't just wait for the kyu/yudansha exams. The test begins the moment we step on the mat

This maxim from Gichin Funakoshi applies aptly to our jiyu-waza as it would to karate-do: "Create an opening and you would find the technique". With this, I leave it to you to figure out what he meant :)

How long have you been training?

How old are you?

George S. Ledyard
06-02-2004, 10:57 AM
See 'Budo' and 'Budo Renshu' both purportedly by M. Ueshiba (who at least heavily influenced the text. Both contain photos and drawings of shite/nage/tori attacking to start the technique.

RT
I just finshed watching several videos which were done by Hikitsuchi Sensei before he died and in every one he repeatedly stressed the need to "not wait" to "initiate". This idea of no attack has more to do with the "Heart" than who starts the physical movement.

As Ron has pointed out, the few books by M.Ueshiba support this idea. You can certainly find Deshi from every period during which O-Sensei taught who say the same thing. My own teacher came from the final period in which O-Sensei taught and I was never taught to wait.

I think this apparent contradiction is one of those Koans contained in our pratcice that we have to figure out on our own. It's not going to come from discussion but practice.

Don_Modesto
06-02-2004, 01:47 PM
My own teacher came from the final period in which O-Sensei taught and I was never taught to wait.

Sometimes the timing of NAGE's "elicit" is perfect and you get sucked into NAGE's technique.

I've recoiled on occasion from elicits, though, and inadvertently foiled NAGE's technique. Sometimes it's too early and I'm not quite committed. Worse, when UKE for someone demonstrating technique, they turn from talking while I'm in the listening mode and elicit suddenly surprising me. I block, cocking one arm to punch.

Oops.

But I think this is the other side of the coin of honest attacks. If you're making honest attacks, you have to be in a certain mind-set and not just going along.

In my own training, I've been working on this elicit thing, I call it initiative, and, boy have I got a long way to go! In SUARI WAZA SHOMEN UCHI IKKYO, I elicit and invariably, UKE defends with the "wrong" arm and I have to recover with some other technique. It brings smiles to my students' faces so I'm glad someone's amused, but I expect this to remain on my training syllabus for a couple of years.

SeiserL
06-03-2004, 10:03 AM
IMHO, taking the original question more as koan or discussion starter, I could guess that the answer to the student's question should be found in personal training experience and not by asking verbal explanation from someone else. The proper answer would be to bow politely and get back to training.

cguzik
06-03-2004, 10:40 AM
Interestingly, the Founder, himself, said there is no attack in Aikido. I take it as a kind of "koan" that I`ve yet to figure out.

To the original question, it was Okumura Shihan that asked about the various "sen" and the answer (as I remember it) is that there is only one sen. Again, another koan to figure out.
Charles Hill

If, at the highest levels, aikido is about recognizing and blending with someone's intent, then at the highest levels of aikido go no sen, sen no sen, and sen sen no sen all converge.

George S. Ledyard
06-03-2004, 10:46 AM
I've recoiled on occasion from elicits, though, and inadvertently foiled NAGE's technique. Sometimes it's too early and I'm not quite committed. Worse, when UKE for someone demonstrating technique, they turn from talking while I'm in the listening mode and elicit suddenly surprising me. I block, cocking one arm to punch.

Oops.

Don,
If you recoil and it breaks the connection the nage wasn't doing it right. This happens alot. The Jeet Kun Do guys have a principle called CFP or Constant Forward Pressure. If you recoil, nage should instantly fill that gap. You will eventually be forced to defend. Too many people think the initiation of the attack is done with the arms. This allows uke to engage or disengage depending on his preferance. The initiative comes from the hara, from the body, the arms are just one possible expression. If it is the body which connects to uke's center he doesn't have the option of disengaging.

As for blocking with intent to punch, it should be assumed that this can happen, otherwise the whole thing is garbage. It should ALWAYS be assumed that the uke might actually initiate a defense and counter rather than merely blocking which no good martial artist will do. Your technqiue should work either way.

Nage does not control uke. For a principle to be valid it has to work, not based on a particular trained reaction, but on any possible reaction which the uke might have. Now if you are trying to demonstrate a particular technique it is necessary that the uke give you the response which allows that technqiue. But your failure to react "properly" shouldn't "beat" the nage's technique or he isn't doing it right.

Don_Modesto
06-03-2004, 11:50 AM
Too many people think the initiation of the attack is done with the arms. This allows uke to engage or disengage depending on his preferance. The initiative comes from the hara, from the body, the arms are just one possible expression. If it is the body which connects to uke's center he doesn't have the option of disengaging.


Thanks, George. These lines set off a light bulb, i.e., new item for the training agenda. Much obliged.

Charles Hill
06-05-2004, 03:46 AM
But your failure to react "properly" shouldn't "beat" the nage's technique or he isn't doing it right.

Mr. Ledyard,

By this do you mean a prescribed technique, for example in a class situation where the teacher has shown a specific technique, and nage should be able to do that technique? Or do you mean that nage should be able to do some technique, maybe having to change to another technique?

I think your post is really important and gave me some things to think about for awhile, thanks.

Charles Hill

George S. Ledyard
06-06-2004, 07:51 PM
Mr. Ledyard,

By this do you mean a prescribed technique, for example in a class situation where the teacher has shown a specific technique, and nage should be able to do that technique? Or do you mean that nage should be able to do some technique, maybe having to change to another technique?

I think your post is really important and gave me some things to think about for awhile, thanks.

Charles Hill
Both. It's not about what particular technique is winning, it's about who can be offensive and who can be defensive on the line of attack. The line of attack is the line between your two centers. On your entry, your partner should be oriented in such a way that you can execute an offensive move aginst his center and he can only react with a defensive move, His defensive reaction to this creates the technique.

David Yap
06-06-2004, 10:34 PM
There's a problem with a 'test' based on false information. I tried to tell someone else that once...they replied that I 'wasn't looking deep enough'. Hogwash. They just had their facts wrong.

Sorry for the late response. Been out of the country and away from the Net for the past 5 days.

I guess they're right - sometimes one has to look deeper, need to discard the decoys, the red herrings. One has to realize that communication structure and process are not standard across the globe, taking into consideration the diverse cultures - racial, religious and philosophical background, etc.

A Caucasian friend of mine related his training in a Japanese dojo. He was the only "gaijin" in the class. He was paired with another student when he heard the sensei barking out instructions/corrections in broken English to another pair of students working a distance away. He paid no heed and continued to do his thing and again heard the same instructions from the distance. This time it hit him, why would a Japanese sensei be correcting a pair of Japanese students in broken English unless the instructions were indirectly meant for him. He corrected what was supposedly wrong and the instructions stopped. Here again, I stress that MA teaches to be aware of the environment on or off the mat ;)

Regards

David

David Yap
06-07-2004, 08:33 PM
If, at the highest levels, aikido is about recognizing and blending with someone's intent, then at the highest levels of aikido go no sen, sen no sen, and sen sen no sen all converge.

Hi Chris,

You are absolutely correct. There is only one "Sen" at the highest level as pointed out by Charles. Remember the incident when O Sensei was attacked with sword by a military officer. I think this was the starting point of O Sensei's enlightenment.

Some would say, "Shut up & train" but wouldn't it better we train with a goal of reaching this level. In the orient, realizing this is part of spiritual growth.

Regards

David