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mj
02-05-2001, 04:53 PM
Here's a question... At the club tonight one of the dans was in a real foul mood. BAD. The class was sensei, (not the normal one, he's been on holiday for 4 weeks and comes back next week,) another black belt, 3 yellows, including me, and 4 white belts. Anyway the non-sensei dan was in an abusive frame of mind. He pulled the white belt womens hair during techniques, and was rough and belittling to us all. Anyway, he did a kokyu-ho on me and when I was almost on the ground said 'would you mind grabbing my hand' (He had initially done it wrong but just kept going.) So I gave his hand a pull, which made him fall right over me onto his... back, let's say. So while I'm lying on the ground he got up and kicked me in the back/arm HARD. He then asked me 'outside' at which point the sensei had a word with him and he stormed off of the mat. I like aiki... love it really, but am I expected to take **** like that?

mark johnston

DiNalt
02-05-2001, 05:49 PM
No, but you probably shouldn't have pulled him down.
Show a little understanding, so to speak.

Everyone has a shit day, maybe his wife left him and took all of his Limp Bizkit CD's.

mj wrote:
Here's a question... At the club tonight one of the dans was in a real foul mood. BAD. The class was sensei, (not the normal one, he's been on holiday for 4 weeks and comes back next week,) another black belt, 3 yellows, including me, and 4 white belts. Anyway the non-sensei dan was in an abusive frame of mind. He pulled the white belt womens hair during techniques, and was rough and belittling to us all. Anyway, he did a kokyu-ho on me and when I was almost on the ground said 'would you mind grabbing my hand' (He had initially done it wrong but just kept going.) So I gave his hand a pull, which made him fall right over me onto his... back, let's say. So while I'm lying on the ground he got up and kicked me in the back/arm HARD. He then asked me 'outside' at which point the sensei had a word with him and he stormed off of the mat. I like aiki... love it really, but am I expected to take **** like that?

mark johnston

lt-rentaroo
02-05-2001, 06:35 PM
You do not deserve to be treated with such disrespect. Should you have pulled him down on the mat? No. But then, if he was performing the technique properly, he would not have fallen on his butt. Black belts are not infallible, they make mistakes (I've made quite a few). When some are caught making one, they assume that it is the lesser ranks fault and become beligerent with them.

The black belt you describe apparently has an issue that needs to be resolved. Regardless, there is no excuse for his behavior. I've had bad days, but I do not take my anger out on my class. Part of Aikido is learning how to deal with stressful situations and how to overcome them. The black belt you describe evidently has not learned this important part of Aikido. I hope that this was an isolated incident and not a pattern of poor behavior. I would hate to think that someone who displays inapropriate behavior as you have described on a regular basis was promoted to black belt.

mj
02-05-2001, 07:27 PM
Thanks for the replies. I understand about the not pulling him down stuff. Allow me to explain, and this is not an excuse honestly. I did about 20 years judo, it was very hard for me to change to aiki, but it was a lifestyle choice, if you like. Judo is wonderful, but in essence aggresive. (People who have done it a lot know what I mean.) When he said 'Why don't you GRAB me', he knew me, and he knew what I would do (in a way...), and my mistake was in not recognising his tone... it was aggressive, seriously, dangerously. In judo that's just the way people are sometimes, it makes no difference... probably, later on, the same in aiki. He deliberatly went on the mat to bully people, does it all the time, only to kyu grades though. I was not trying to be smart or clever or show off. I thought he meant to try and break his balance, which I did. Not as a challenge, but to refine his technique. From my first time on the aiki mat he has been the same... trying to overpower (bully) (intimidate) lower grades. I'm fortunate in that I've been through all that in other arts, and I see it differently. Apart from him and the sensei there were 4 white belts and 3 yellow belts on the mat. He stood up and kicked me HARD! I'm back at the class in 2 days... if he asks me outside again... well maybe I'll just... I mean... I WANT to LEARN aiki, I understand sometimes you have to take pain, respect your 'superiors' (sorry about the quotes), I've seen it in all arts I've done. But this guy is just a plain bully. God this sounds bad. It sounds personal. But, egotistical as it sounds, I'm above that. My 3 kids and wife give me more abuse daily, if you know what I mean ha ha. People aren't just like that in judo, but in real life... everyone knows it. You just put up with it. I am NOT going to put up with it. I don't mean I'm going to fight with anyone, argue with anyone or say I'm right when I'm wrong. I just want to be who I want to be, try what I want to try, and live life. One person won't spoil my life, but screw that, don't tell me that he can get away with that again and again or... whatever. He's a bully. It's just that now he's trying to pick on me. And I want to be aiki, and don't know how. It's not his fault, just the way he is. He tries to terrify people, he's only there about once every six sessions (two weeks). I don't feel it's my duty to embarrass him or put him in his place, that's lifes job. I'm not excusing what I did, I thought it was what he wanted. I've done it many times with other dan grades. Put it this way, my two oldest kids are 12 and 13, I want them to do aiki, too. But not if this jerk is there. I'm also not trying to put the guy down, people are what they are and you have to live with it, that's life and love and family isn't it? Except that those things haven't made my arm swell up, stiffen and bruise tonight. What about next time? ...limp biscuit?... Nirvana unplugged!!!

Mark Johnston
With total respect

Nick
02-05-2001, 08:08 PM
I'd say talk to the head of your dojo and get him/her to straighten it out... that kind of behavior really should not be tolerated... in my opinion, anger has no place in the dojo, neither does bullying. The reason people bully others is to feel superior to them, usually to feed their ego, which is contradictory to the reason I practice Aikido... I'd say talk to your sensei and get it straightened out. If your instructors refuse to talk to him and such abuse continues, perhaps you'd be best finding a new dojo.

Nick

lt-rentaroo
02-05-2001, 08:16 PM
MJ,

Sounds to me like you have the right attitude and this "black belt" does not. I use quotations marks around black belt because this individual clearly does not (from your info) display all the characteristics that I believe a true black belt should have. An attitude of receptivity and humility is very important, in all martial arts. Just because someone knows the physical techniques does not mean they posess the mental and emotional abilities that go along with being a true black belt. Goodness sakes, even the roughest and toughest martial artists have an ethical code they follow and I'm sure that kicking a lower ranked student is not what they would consider acceptable.

Your Sensei has a problem that he needs to address. If this individual continues to treat you and others in this way, the dojo will suffer. Perhaps you should take the initiative and speak with your Sensei about this individual's behavior and how you find it disrespectful and improper. Maybe other students would support you as well.

Training hard is one thing, being kicked while your down is another. You didn't deserve it and neither does anyone else. If this were my dojo and I had a student (regardless of rank) that behaved in this way, I would ask them to leave and not return.

shadow
02-05-2001, 08:20 PM
I've never met anyone like that while studying aikido. Sure people have bad days and are occassionally rough.......but everyone I've met studying aikido is incredibly friendly, the rough people tend either to not have the patience to stay in a gentle art (at times) or eventually change their ways, especially at a black belt grade, I don't think my sensei would tolerate that behaviour, plain asking the fellow to never come back.

Matt Banks
02-06-2001, 04:43 AM
This is appaling behaviour. The pulling a womens hair in a tecnique, is very very bad. If he was how you speak of him, I would report him to the dojo head.

We are always taught no matter what has happened in your day, if you have decided to come to training- you have come to train, and all your problems should be left outside the dojo-they will still be there when training has finished. Obviously I wasnt there thus I dont know the severity of the situation, yet abusive of much lower grades is not allowed. When your in the brown and black belts 1st 2nd and 3rd kyu and above, you can expect to take a great deal of physical abuse to make your body strong (so to speak). But to do this to yellow and white belts is v.wrong. On a masters day in nottingham, a so called ''gung fu'' expert was demonstrating. He felt it neccesary to demonstrate a particular punch on one of the aikidoka. He picked a girl called haley who was a white belt and only training for a few months. He smacked her in the guts making her hunch over in pain, at this point I was ready to nail him for what he did, but my sensei told me to hold back and said I would get my chance later.(which I did)The session went on to a more practical theme, and we were practicsing these throws he had shown us. Tis guy came round to me and viewed what I was doing, in the middle of executing a throw he grabbed me by the hair, saying that what I was doing was useless. He then said, from hear your completely immobile from this position and that I was unable to move. I saw my sensei grinning in the corner of my eye, so I manuvered my hips where he was and applied a koshinage throw on the kung fu guy. He went right over , yet I grabbed his legs at the last minit to give him a nice soft landing onto the mat. Helping him to his feet, telling him I was only joking. The next day I got a real bolloking from my sensei, as Id lost my centre and sunk to his level.


Matt Banks

andrew
02-06-2001, 04:47 AM
DiNalt wrote:
Everyone has a shit day, maybe his wife left him and took all of his Limp Bizkit CD's.



No, but that'd be good cos he'd feel guilty about throwing the cds in the bin in six months otherwise.
(ahem)
andrew

andrew
02-06-2001, 04:53 AM
mj wrote:
He's a bully.

He's a bully. If you show him up as a coward (as they always are) you'll just feel bad, and he'll be waiting to get you back.
There's a guy like that round here.
andrew

nikonl
02-06-2001, 09:58 AM
Matt Banks wrote:
The next day I got a real bolloking from my sensei, as Id lost my centre and sunk to his level.


Matt Banks

i was juz wondering, wat do u mean by lost your centre and sunk to his level?

Shipley
02-06-2001, 10:59 AM
I'd say that telling him that pulling the udansha down when specifically asked to (that's how I would have interpreted what he asked as well) was wrong is a little harsh. What this udansha did is inexcuseable, and I'd be willing to bet that his sensei would take fairly strong actions if he knew about it. The udansha who was teaching the class should have already told your sensei about it, so I'd wait and see if I was in your shoes. As for taking up his offer to step outside, it'd be very human, but not very aiki, to accept. I hope that this whole thing just blows over for you. If it makes you feel better I've never seen behaviour like this on the mat, so it must be fairly rare.

Best wishes,

Paul

mj
02-06-2001, 12:15 PM
Yes, you all make sense. I would just emphasise that I _thought_ he wanted me to test his posture. (Is my syntax right?) And yes, my yellow belt centre has gone just now, and aiki has a funny taste. My sensei is abroad til next week. The class is not on til tomorrow... But I found another one 5 miles away and I'm going there tonight! (Not that I'm giving up on my 'own' class) Besides, if that's the only **** I get of anyone this year, I guess I'm a lucky man! ha ha
Respect-
Mark Johnston

DiNalt
02-06-2001, 05:08 PM
Uh, you pointed a flaw in his technique, and you went easy on him.

What's wrong with that ?

Besides, I am a firm believer in the fact that some people tend to walk on a certain level of illusion and denial until someone gives them a smack in the face for their arrogance.

This comes as a shock which helps them grow.
Nothing short of a shock won't cause a profound change in a person.

I know 'cause I was one of those people, and it took more than one smack... and there's possibly more coming in the future ;) but I hope not.

Matt Banks wrote:
I saw my sensei grinning in the corner of my eye, so I manuvered my hips where he was and applied a koshinage throw on the kung fu guy. He went right over , yet I grabbed his legs at the last minit to give him a nice soft landing onto the mat. Helping him to his feet, telling him I was only joking. The next day I got a real bolloking from my sensei, as Id lost my centre and sunk to his level.


Matt Banks

Marianne Crisp
02-12-2001, 07:20 AM
The answer to your question is "NO." Any Dan who abuses his rank and experience to belittle or overpower lower grades, of either sex, shames his teacher and does not deserve his grade.
His rank is not "Dan" but "Bully," and he clearly has no more idea of the true concept of Harmony than fly in the air.
Avoid this person wherever possible, as he clearly has much maturing to do.
Please do not let one fool divert you from the beautiful Way of Harmony.
Best regards
Marianne Crisp
1st Dan Instructor
Milton Keynes Keihatsu Aikido Club.

ian
02-12-2001, 08:56 AM
That seems like disgraceful behaviour and I'm certain that if it happened at our club there would be a reprimand. Aikido is very dangerous and without respect for each other bones will get broken. Sometimes violent people can set up a bad atmosphere in the dojo, hich often leads to more agressive behaviour and inappropriate competitiveness. The higher rank has the responsibility for controlling the situation and should not have allowed himself to feel intimidated by your action. It seems like they feel they have something to prove - which I would hope would not be occuring once they got to dan grade. He should have taken your action as a useful lesson rather than an affront. It is very sad when people who have been doing aikido a long time believe they know everything.

Ian

chrisinbrasil
02-12-2001, 03:23 PM
Hey,
In my dojo there is a certain degree of informality reigning and it wouldn´t be at all out of place to have turned to him (after he kicked you) and said, "Never do that again! Do you understand me?" Personally, I would´ve called the instructor or sensei over on-the-spot and confronted him with his behavior. Then, what reaction would he have? If he didn´t shape up, he would have to ship out. My instructor would´ve sent him packing, at least for the night, then discussed the ignoramous´s attitude problem privately. If the guy tries to catch up to you on the street, hey, what is self-defense for? 20 years of Judo... Amen!

mj
03-14-2001, 05:53 PM
Again, thank you for your help and advice. My chief instructor has decided to ban me from the organisation because I posted this discussion on the web. A couple of other people have left the organisation/club also. I don't take this to mean any protest at what happened, they just have. Apparently I am now being accused of delibaretly throwing the dan off of the mat, without any accusers. Don't worry, sad as I/we am/are, there are other clubs. However, on a personal note - I'm not happy. But we learn to live with it, don't we. Isn't freedom of speech sacrosanct? If anyone within 20 miles of me has or goes to an aikido club, please mail me. I would like to join! (And my friend Dave p:)
Hi andrew, see you someplace, we're sure!

Nick
03-14-2001, 06:19 PM
First-- if they banned you because you asked for help for something that was troubling you, you're better off without them no doubt... second, where do you live? If in the Atlanta area I can help you out, if not use the dojo locator, and good luck on finding a new place to train.

Nick

mj
03-14-2001, 06:23 PM
Thanks Nick, sorry, 3000 miles out! I've updated my profile. :D

Dan Hover
03-14-2001, 06:49 PM
mj wrote:
Again, thank you for your help and advice. My chief instructor has decided to ban me from the organisation because I posted this discussion on the web.

Banned for life? What is this Pro sports?
Not to play Devil's advocate but there might have been more going on politically for that to occur. Nothing on you, He may have been a bully too, or friends with the Bully in Question. It is said and unfair, I agree, but I am led to believe that there is more to this picture than what you are telling us, and maybe something that you may not even know. In the big picture he is probably doing you a favor by banning you. Hopefully others will see that action and come up with the same result you and yours came up with. That this isn't the organization you feel best represents you and your aims in Aikido.

mj
03-14-2001, 07:06 PM
I hope you're right Dan, anyway... you've talked sense before - so I'm disinclined to disagree. But I did tell the truth. Thanks

Nick
03-14-2001, 08:16 PM
I don't think he's saying you're lying, I think he's saying you're not telling the whole truth simply because you don't know it-- politics, one would think, would be avoided in budo, because of the moral standards that their practitioners claim is a side effect of constantly disciplining mind and body, but hey, things happen. If they were so quick to ban you, they're either afraid that people might actually think poorly of them for the poor way that they handled things, or perhaps it goes deeper, and you don't (and won't) know the true meaning you were nixed from the dojo. My advice would be move on, find a new place to train. I know this must be hard-- if I were to be kicked out of my dojo, I'm not sure I would want to train anymore... but hopefully, that's a bridge I shall never have to cross...

Nick

mornmd
03-14-2001, 08:50 PM
No doubt leaving a club where the head Sensei acted like this may be the best thing. If he truly didn't understand what went down, I would direct him to this forum. If he does understand, and is banning you for airing the dojo's dirty laundry, then the chief instructor needs to work on his emotional growth and close his dojo.

Matthew

Erik
03-15-2001, 12:17 AM
mj wrote:
Again, thank you for your help and advice. My chief instructor has decided to ban me from the organisation because I posted this discussion on the web. A couple of other people have left the organisation/club also. I don't take this to mean any protest at what happened, they just have. Apparently I am now being accused of delibaretly throwing the dan off of the mat, without any accusers. Don't worry, sad as I/we am/are, there are other clubs. However, on a personal note - I'm not happy. But we learn to live with it, don't we. Isn't freedom of speech sacrosanct? If anyone within 20 miles of me has or goes to an aikido club, please mail me. I would like to join! (And my friend Dave p:)
Hi andrew, see you someplace, we're sure!

For what it's worth, I've left a dojo in unpleasant circumstances as well. I can be a bit volatile as some of you may have noticed. The biggest mistake I made was in not leaving when I knew I wasn't happy. I let things build up until they exploded and in retrospect really wish I'd done things differently. Still, leaving, or being evicted (but not banned as I'm welcome to visit) as happened to me, was by far the best thing we could have done. I'm so much happier where I am now that I can't even compare it.

As far as I'm concerned you are 1,000 times better off without these clowns.

By the way, just to put a counter spin on your thoughts. Sometimes, people like this are allowed into a dojo because they need it more than anything else and the sensei recognizes this. I don't think this was the case here because of the violence aspect but you never know. Sometimes things just get really crazy as Aikido can, on occasion, really produce emotional reactions. In fact, if it doesn't at least a little bit of the time, I'm not sure you are really practicing.

Sam
03-15-2001, 06:09 AM
Mark, You are very welcome to train with us if you are ever in North Yorkshire as long as you behave! (only joking.)

I would like to recommend to you Heriot-Watt University Club which is Shodokan (Tomiki style) and run by Martin Livingstone. I think non-students are welcome. Let me know if you are interested and I can send you his contact details.

Anyway I hope you find a club in which you feel happy.

mj
03-15-2001, 12:27 PM
Dan, sorry for not reading your post right... my fault, I was going to bed just as I checked and replied.

Erik, very good point! (Counterpoint)

Sam, I already train at Martins club on Sundays! I've not been for the past few weeks because, you know... if you have his number tell him me and Dave will be back soon. And I hope to meet you too. (And thanks for the invite, maybe Martin will vouch for my character... maybe not!)

One small thing, when I went up to the er.... EX-club last night, it was to pick up the club newsletter, which had details of my grading last year and the summer camp where my friend and I had gone. The sensei refused to let me have it. When I thought back on this today it just seemed so, I don't know, PETTY I suppose, that I saw things in context and I'm absolutely fine with the experience now, no grudges or anger, I had a good time pretty much all of the time there, met some nice people and so on. I'm cool about it now. Thanks for all the advice etc. :circle:

Steve Speicher
03-15-2001, 01:13 PM
Mark,

All I can say is I echo other's previous comments in that you are better off in a different dojo anyhow.

For real, I'd never want as a Sensei someone who not only disagrees with seeking help from available sources (Aiki sources nonetheless), but uses that as a basis for a ban. And then is immature enough to deny a publication to a former student, that he probably would've given to a stranger.

This only angers me, because that person is unfit to be a sensei. He should close down the dojo, and engage in some serious training, until he has a better understanding of aiki principles. Or maybe he should just grow up??

BC
03-15-2001, 01:29 PM
Wow! Banned? It sounds like you are much better off going to a new dojo. If this is typical behavior of this sensei, I doubt he will be able to retain many, if any, long term students. Best of luck in your new dojo!

Marianne Crisp
03-16-2001, 07:43 AM
Mark, I've been out of the country for 3 weeks, hence this belated response.
I'm sorry to hear that you've been banned from the Dojo, but remember that everyone - including a Sensei - can only respond to a given stimulus according to his/her own individual background, experience, and personal development at that particular time. We are all affected by events and people in our lives - this is how we GROW - so please try to regard this as just another stage in YOUR life (your former Sensei will have to do his own development as a result of banning you).
However, clearly you enjoy the concept and the practice of aikido, so my suggestion is that you contact the British Aikido Board (I'm assuming that you're in the UK) and root around in their Dojolist. If you're within about 30 mins drive of Milton Keynes (about 1/2way between London & Biimingham), check out Milton Keynes Aikido.com (I run the Keihatsu club on a Friday night) and you are welcome to contact me or just drop by.
Take heart, and remember that there are hundreds of good clubs out there....
Good Luck !
Yours in Harmony
Marianne Crisp
1st Dan Coach

mj
03-16-2001, 12:13 PM
:D Thanks, esp sensei Crisp. Without in anyway trying to sound 'sad'. It's up to me to deal with it, and I already have. (I mean internally, of course!) Aikido isn't inevitably the people I meet, or that anyone meets. It's how we deal with it. I'd like to thank my old sensei for all the time he spent teaching me, as well, if he ever reads this. Really, thanks.

Jim ashby
03-16-2001, 03:24 PM
There's no need to take that type of crap from anyone. There's plenty of really good Dojo's about, if you are near to the Milton keynes Dojo it's a good bet. I like the mats there they really make you bounce! Any way, respect and harmony to you and Marianne (about this harmony stuff Marianne, i've managed to get my nose back straight after last night!) Fat Bloke

mj
03-16-2001, 05:39 PM
:rolleyes: Screw that, sounds too violent... :D
Sorry, people, Scotland's too far from you. But I have been invited to London to practice. If I go, I'll visit you. For sure...

Travis Baker
03-19-2001, 12:58 AM
Seems the loss of a few limp bizkit cd's would be a blessing in disguise :D

-Travis Baker

Nina Bjader
05-05-2001, 08:25 PM
>The class was sensei, (not the normal one, he's been on holiday for 4 weeks and comes back next week,) another black belt, 3 yellows, including me, and 4 white belts. Anyway the non-sensei dan was in an abusive frame of mind.

What I wonder is: what about this guy/girl teaching the class? This person certainly has a responsibility, too. Why did he/she not react on somebody pulling somebody else's hair during training? Is that person afraid of the bully, uncertain how to handle him, or what?

If this kind of behavior is accepted during class - long before we get to the stepping outside part - something is dead wrong in that dojo. Hope you are happier where you are now.

Nina

ahdumb
05-22-2001, 06:49 AM
What? You got banned? Well I guess that's a little bad... but hey if any dan was allowed to do shit like that in the dojo it's better that you leave. Godd luck to ya.

mj
05-23-2001, 03:12 PM
:cool:
It's OK, we all laugh at it now...
As for the teacher, Nina, he is a policeman.
I've passed him in the street a few times and he totally ignored me, as has the sensei.... very mature, very aiki, ;).
Don't worry though, I've never seen this happen before. And I wouldn't want to be a part of it, either.
I did think this thread had died, though...

Creature_of_the_id
05-23-2001, 06:13 PM
Hi MJ,
just wondering... did you find a new place to train? how far are you from glasgow? i know some good instructors in that area

Kev Price

mj
05-24-2001, 12:07 PM
:D
ANYONE...
feel free to email me about ANY club in Scotland... (Please!)
(Of course... there is one I won't go to... but I'm not saying which... ;))

Jim ashby
05-25-2001, 02:55 PM
There's a club in Comrie that would definitely be worth a go. It's run by a pupil of my Sensei and they need all the support hey can get. I'll get the contact details and post them here later.
Have fun.