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adiso
05-10-2004, 09:22 PM
I'm going to somewhat hijack the thread somewhat, but I have a serious question. Someone mentioned sitting out a technique, and I was wondering, is it normal to cover more than 1 technique in a class? Although I just started Aikido, the only time I've noticed someone practice more than 1 technique in a single class is when they have a belt test coming up very soon.

Also, unless you're practicing in heat over 85 degrees, there's no need to take a water break unless you have a medical problem. People in normal health that want to take a break after 30 minutes or so are just lazy/undisciplined.

giriasis
05-10-2004, 09:54 PM
In my dojo, we consistently practice more than one technique. If it's a basics class, it will be three techniques, but in a regular mixed class we could do 4-6 in a given night. If you ever have done one of Penny Bernath's classes you will do, well, too many to count. ;) So, yes, it's possible to sit out for a technique or just for a couple of minutes until you catch your breath, especially if you are training intensely like most dojos that I know do in the South Florida area.

We usually don't take water breaks, but if someone has a medical condition then I'm sure my sensei would make an exception if the person talked to him in advanced and kept the bottle at the side of the mat. I also want to point out that this young man lives in Miami, Florida and it gets incredibly hot and humid down there for about 10 months of the year and for 2 months it's in the high 70s and low 80s.

(P.S. the thread has already been hijacked and Jun usually allows for such thread drift on these boards so don't worry about that.)

Atomicpenguin
05-10-2004, 11:55 PM
One of my instructors tonight complained that not everyone had brought water bottles and left them on the side of the mat. It's imperative that you keep hydrated. The thing is that where you train greatly affects how much water you need. I train in Phoenix, Arizona, a dry, hot desert. As was stated above, our instructors encourage everyone to bring water bottles. I couldn't imagine going through class without one. On the other hand, the last out of state camp I went to was in Seattle. I remember noting how odd it seemed that no one had water bottles. Interestingly, I found that during practice I really never needed it, though I had it there anyway. I don't see why it would be a problem to have one in that climate though. If you need to drink then drink. Not everyone is in the same physical condition. For some a few ukemi is enough to give a heart attack. But that changes with training.

ryujin
05-11-2004, 12:11 AM
I live in AZ and every year the local paper prints articles about dehydration. In one of the articles a few years back it was stated that if you think your thirsty, you are already partially dehydrated.

Needing a drink of water has nothing to do with discipline or being lazy. If your not keeping hydrated your only asking for trouble. :rolleyes:

batemanb
05-11-2004, 02:47 AM
Also, unless you're practicing in heat over 85 degrees, there's no need to take a water break unless you have a medical problem.

That's absolute tosh.

Dehydration is a major health hazard, no one should be prevented from topping up fluids, or be advised against doing so, regardless of where they train. It is indeed true that if you feel thirsty, you are already starting to dehydrate (according to both the tutor on my First Aid course and the tutor on my coaching course).

Perspiration is a reaction to the body overheating in an effort to help cool it down. If you are continually perspiring, which I for one certainly do when training, it is important that that water is replaced. Everybody has a different physiology, the individual bodies react completely differently, you can not assume that because you feel you don't need water, or because you don't want to take water for whatever misguided reason, that everyone should do the same. What use is it to have a student pass out on the mat from dehydration?

People in normal health that want to take a break after 30 minutes or so are just lazy/undisciplined.

Again, a very blanket statement based on what? The fact that you can complete 30 minutes without a problem? How does that relate to me? Are you aware that I leave home at 5:30 am, drive 2 hours to the office, spend 9 hours at a computer dealing with critical customer issues (a cause of serious mental fatigue), drive 2 hours home again, go straight to the dojo and teach 20 kids for an hour, and then go straight in to my own two hour training session? How about the bad knee I have that can often play up after tearing the remedial ligament twice, or the sprained wrist from the over zealous gokkyo last week? As it happens, I don't need to take a break after 30 minutes, I don't sit out techniques that effect my knee as often as I should, something that I am sure I will regret in the coming years. I certainly wouldn't call anyone lazy or undisciplined if they had cause to sit out a technique, if they have a reason valid for them. We all have to go to work tomorrow, most of us have families to support, mortgages to pay etc. What use is it to force someone to train to the extreme and risk serious injury as a result of being too tired to make that ukemi?

I am not for one minute saying that we shouldn't be serious in our training, that we shouldn't try to do more, or push ourselves. But we still need to look after ourselves and our students, it's no good if there's no one left to train with.


regards

Bryan

PeterR
05-11-2004, 02:55 AM
Bryan;

Generally speaking how often do you need to top up if you are hydrated at the beginning of class?

I know about variation among individuals but on average.

batemanb
05-11-2004, 02:55 AM
I'm going to somewhat hijack the thread somewhat, but I have a serious question. Someone mentioned sitting out a technique, and I was wondering, is it normal to cover more than 1 technique in a class? Although I just started Aikido, the only time I've noticed someone practice more than 1 technique in a single class is when they have a belt test coming up very soon.


Last night I taught 6 techniques in my juniors class, and I taught about 10 in the seniors. Juniors have a shorter attention span, therefore it is important to keep them on their toes otherwise they become disinterested.For seniors it depends on how many people are in the class, what level the people are in the class, but most of all, what point I am trying to get across. Sometimes, I may just teach one technique to focus on the one technique, sometimes, like last night, I was working on a principal within all techniques, therefore felt it better to try a larger number of techniques to outline how broad the principal is.


Regards

Bryan

batemanb
05-11-2004, 03:37 AM
Hi Peter,

That's a good question. Hydrating before keiko is certainly something that I would recommend and will certainly help with reducing problems on this front. However, I myself don't always remember to do so, and I certainly can't assume that everyone else has.

This doesn't mean that everyone is running for a drink every five minutes during class, far from it, all I am trying to say is that we shouldn't assume that everyone is the same, if someone feels that they require water, then they should be allowed to take some on.

rgds

Bryan

PeterR
05-11-2004, 03:59 AM
This doesn't mean that everyone is running for a drink every five minutes during class, far from it, all I am trying to say is that we shouldn't assume that everyone is the same, if someone feels that they require water, then they should be allowed to take some on.
Agreed. Still think they should ask to leave the mat - not as if you'ld say no.

As per the thread - excluding drills and randori 8-10 techniques per two hours, As not everybody does the same techniques I usually end up teaching about 15 not including the waza I practice myself. Not as bad as it sounds since there is a lot of repetion from week to week.

And no water breakss Bwahahahahahahaha. ;)

batemanb
05-11-2004, 04:15 AM
Agreed. Still think they should ask to leave the mat

Absolutely.


Boy I need a drink :D

MaryKaye
05-11-2004, 09:53 AM
I've studied in two places, one which did somewhere between 8-32 techniques per 2.5 hour class (in sets of 8, almost always) and one which does somewhere between 1-6 per 2 hour class. Different teaching styles, that's all.

I don't think I can actually learn more than about 4-6 things in an evening, so I found getting to do 32 pretty baffling. But it did keep the classes lively.

Mary Kaye

Goye
05-11-2004, 11:05 AM
About the number of techniques it depends, if the purpose of the class is to show a body movement and how to apply it in different situations, the number of techniques can be more,.. like (E.j. ways of dealing whit a shomenuchi attack doing irmi entrance). If the main goal is to polish a technique in some aspect the number can be less. In my 1 classes I usually make 3 to 6 techniques. I also think quality is better than number,.. it is not good to perform 3000 techniques and show your students how much Aikido you know,… at the end they will say: This guy knows a lot of techniques but he hasn’t even make us know how to do an Iriminaqe,.. you know what I mean,.. class is not exhibition.

About the water matter,.. I prefer not to make or allow water breaks,.. In Bogota, we have cold weather and there is not high risk of dehydration, if somebody needs to rest he/she can seat in seiza for a while. At the end of the class we spend a time drinking some water and chatting about the class.

aikidoc
05-11-2004, 11:11 AM
The number of techniques I include in a class depends a lot on what I am working on. I may be focusing on tai sabaki or basic movement patterns and not cover more than one technique or if more techniques related to the movement pattern. Other times I may be on a theme-kokyu nage and we may do several different kokyu nages from the same and different attacks.

Fausto
05-11-2004, 12:18 PM
Number of techniques, well I see how the students are doing with the first technique and depending on the group I leave them to do it more time or less time....... because of that the numer of techniques can change from 2 or 3 to 6 or 7... it depends on how the students are doing.

For the water break issue, well it depends on the place you are training and on the person.... thats what I think.

JMCavazos
05-11-2004, 01:58 PM
Anywhere from 1to 20 in a 1 1/2 hour class. I focus more on teaching a principle, then I do however many techniques is necessary to train on that one principle. Beginners tend to focus on the "hows" of doing a technique rather than the "whys" and every technique I show is related to a principle. The number also depends on the intended audience (beginners, intermediate, advanced).

Robyn Johnson
05-11-2004, 02:17 PM
My class has several black belts who are capable of teaching so the amount of different techniques that we practice depends on who is teaching that night. Sometimes the whole class is different techniques from 1 attack while other times it's different variations of a technique like Kotigieshi from different strikes/grabs. Most of the time though, we go from one technique and strike to another technique totally different in a single class. :)

As for the water thing---It's very hot and humid most of the time here in New Orleans. Anytime anyone of us needs a drink from our water bottles we just go do it (our dojo is very relaxed though). :drool: My mouth and throat is dry a lot so I often have to take a quick swig here and there either while watching sensei demonstrate the next technique. Nobody minds. :)

Robyn :ai: :ki: :do:

Greg Jennings
05-11-2004, 02:54 PM
I usually work a small number of related techniques in great detail. Last night, I wanted to cover a lot of ground.

After warm ups, some drills and ukemi practice we did the following from munetsuki:
ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, yonkyo (all omote and ura), gokyo ura, rokyo/hiji-osae and what I call nanakyo ura. As normal in an Iwama-oriented dojo, that part of class started with tainohenko and ended with kokyudosa.

We took about 5 minutes per technique. Everyone was pretty flushed, so I stopped for kokyudosa about 10 minutes early.

It's hot and muggy here, so I encourage people to bring water bottles and to take breaks as they feel necessary.

Best regards,

PeaceHeather
05-11-2004, 04:36 PM
Humidity makes it harder for water/sweat to evaporate, which means perspiration is less effective, which means you can overheat more easily. If you live in a climate where they have a "heat index" on the weather report, pay attention to it. If it's 80 degrees F outside, with a heat index of 97, then you'd better not be working out.

So in hot, humid weather, it's partially a matter of staying hydrated, but much more a matter of keeping your core temperature down. Just sweat isn't enough in humid climates.

In hot, dry weather, both temperature and hydration are critical.

What a lot of people don't realize, though, is that cold weather can be just as dangerous for dehydration. Where I live, the winter air is extremely dry, and sucks the moisture right out of your body. If you are dehydrated, you are *less insulated*, and more prone to hypothermia. So even in a cold climate, you should drink plenty of fluids.

Regardless of the weather, the more water you have in your system, the better your joints will behave, and the less likely you will be to get muscle cramps. So drink up.

Heather, who always knew that information would be useful some day

adiso
05-11-2004, 05:30 PM
Whoah, I'm confused. Did a moderator make my reply a new thread, or am I just stupid? Anyway, thanks for the replies guys.

jester
05-12-2004, 10:43 AM
Our class starts with warm-up exercises, then ukemi, then walking forms, then we break off into groups of twos (high rank with a low rank). The amount of techniques vary depending on the level of the 2 people training with each other. It can be 1 technique or as many as 20. In the middle of class, the instructor will give a lesson, and we practice that, then we bow out. After class, the higher ranked people will work out with each other and work on whatever were interested in.

Do most people practice techniques slow or fast in class?

Goye
05-12-2004, 11:48 AM
Whoah, I'm confused. Did a moderator make my reply a new thread, or am I just stupid? Anyway, thanks for the replies guys.


Don’t worry about it,... this is a successful “ two topic” threat

Karen Wolek
05-12-2004, 12:14 PM
Do most people practice techniques slow or fast in class?

Depends. Since I'm still pretty darn new to Aikido (year and a half, yonkyu), usually the faster I go, the worse I do. So even if I start out attempting to do the technique fast, I end up slowing down anyway. There are a few that I like to do fast though..............like tenchinage.

I think we generally do between 4 and 6 techniques per one hour class.

batemanb
05-13-2004, 03:57 AM
Bryan;

Generally speaking how often do you need to top up if you are hydrated at the beginning of class?

I know about variation among individuals but on average.

Hi Peter,

This got me thinking so I did a bit of googling yesterday. Many people/ doctors etc. advocate the old 8 glasses (1.5 litres) of water a day as a minimum intake just to maintain the norm. I tried to find out if this is fact or not, unfortunately, I haven't found anything yet that backs this up solidly, other than general common sense. I did find a couple of papers, possibly the same article written differently that quote a scientist dispelling this. A number of sites also dispell the statement that "if you are thirsty you are already dehydrating", this is something that I mentioned earlier and was what was taught to us on a Red Cross First Aid course and in the BAB Coaching courses. Having said that, the papers dispelling both of these arguments again didn't really have a lot to back them up.

I know for a fact that I probably don't drink 1.5 litres a day, so presumably I don't even maintain the norm, that's before I start sweating my @rse off in the dojo :D . As an experiment, I spent a lot of time yesterday forcing glasses of water down my gullet, I probably managed about a litre of water on top of the two cups of tea I drank.

Interestingly, I didn't feel so tired early afternoon, that despite a late night and a very early rise. I went to keiko last night and was pleasantly surprised when the 2 hours were up and I hadn't even thought about a water break. The caveat here is that we did jo all night so there was no ukemi, I probably didn't sweat as much as I usually do. Hey, there just might be something to this whole water when needed argument.

What also got me thinking was that if I don't drink the recommended amount to maintain the status quo, then doing keiko on top would likely require a top up more frequently. I will continue to try and drink the same level of water for the next week or so and see how it goes in keiko next week. Not exactly a scientific experiment, but certainly a practical one worth thinking about.

Just finished my first glass of the day, off for another top up :).

regards

Bryan

PeterR
05-13-2004, 04:38 AM
Hi Bryan;

The purpose of the kidney is to not only get rid of waste but also concentrate the urine - not pissing clear does not necessarily mean dehydration. Pissing sand does. ;)

Same observation about the 1.5 liters of water a day - I hardly ever drink that much. I tend to look at these values as very large safety margins. Of course thirst means partial dehydration but not a whole lot - its what makes us thirsty duh. Generally drink when your thirsty and you should get enough fluid in you. Thirst does not imply urgency - you are not going to fall down and die from a little thirst.

The above is during normal activity. You sweat a lot you should replace the fluids and the salt eventually. I suspect that is why beer (yeah I know its a diuretic) and pretzels taste so good after practice. I really don't think it is necessary running for a sip of water every time you feel thirsty.

batemanb
05-13-2004, 04:57 AM
I really don't think it is necessary running for a sip of water every time you feel thirsty.

Hi Peter,

I totally agree here. My argument has only been that if someone feels they need water, they should be allowed to get it. I don't mean to infer that people are running off every five minutes, that's certainly not the case.

Your previous question to me sparked the thought that drinking before keiko may be an effective way of reducing the need to drink water during. I thought I'd look into it a bit more, which sparked the thought that I didn't drink much during the day full stop, so I am more of a candidate to require a drink during keiko, especially once I'm sweating like a pig. Just working along from that.

rgds

Bryan

PeterR
05-13-2004, 05:34 AM
Hi Bryan;

I was just thinking out loud. I'm used to long training sessions without water but am considering introducing a regular water break (on the hour) rather than when I feel like it or my people rebel. The latter is the way things tend to work - someone gets thirsty enough, suggests we have a water break and we do.

It's a good thread - its got us thinking.

giriasis
05-14-2004, 02:27 PM
Regarding drinking before class, a couple of years ago I noticed I was getting really tired, winded and dizzy a lot in class. I knew I needed water, but I would just sit to the side until I got my wind back. To remedy this, I started drinking at least 48 oz. of water throughout the day to keep myself hydrated during a one hour class. And I would keep another 24 oz waiting for me after class. I would easily down it after class, but I could make it through more easily and I didn't get dizzy as much. (Part of my problem with getting winded was that I was at a unhealthy weight weighing at 195 lbs at 5'5" tall [sorry, I don't know the metric conversion].)

Since then, I've maintained drinking my water and lost my weight. Losing the weight, or more correctly -- getting into a better physical shape -- helped my stamina a lot, but I did it the old fashioned way by eating less and working out (in addition to aikido).