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master35
05-06-2004, 02:24 AM
good day to you sirs,

i'm a newbei in aikiweb forum and would like to ask your opinion on what techniques an 8yr old could easily appreciate?
btw im a 1st dan aikido instructor and been teaching for 7yrs. This is only for conversation purposes. :)

philipsmith
05-06-2004, 02:35 AM
I teach a regular Childrens class and teach all techniques except pins (other than Ikkyo). Kids seem to like it. Obviously some modification is needed with Kotegaeshi etc so that the wrist isn't damaged but otherwise anything goes.

batemanb
05-06-2004, 04:28 AM
ditto Phil

rgds

Bryan

Ron Tisdale
05-06-2004, 08:15 AM
I'd have someone teach them judo. Once their bones harden up a bit (what, about 15 or so?) then start aikido. YMMV

Ron

GaiaM
05-06-2004, 09:58 AM
I think it's great that kids start aikido that early. If it is already a big part of their lives by the time they reach puberty perhaps it will be a positive influence during their teenage years. I agree with those who said that aikido is ok even for young kids as long as care is taken with their joints.
Gaia

master35
05-07-2004, 12:25 AM
I think it's great that kids start aikido that early. If it is already a big part of their lives by the time they reach puberty perhaps it will be a positive influence during their teenage years. I agree with those who said that aikido is ok even for young kids as long as care is taken with their joints.
Gaia
we here in the philippines have a stereo-type to make our children enrole in taekwondo coz that's where the the good families are enroling their children. But since my kids wants to learn my art(maybe to impress me) i teach them. But its more of games. And yes i agree w/ you it does influece them.
The question is what technique could youngsters aprreciate?
irimi?, shionagi?, suwari-waza?,.......... what technique? :)

Blade_Looper
05-07-2004, 03:21 AM
Hello!

The most imortant thing for children that age is to have fun and to feel that they are accepted for who they are. I accualy dont know what techniques i would have learned them. Maybe you should start whit some exersice game, and learn them fall techniques and i also think that different types of kokyunages would be good!.

Hope that I could help you!

master35
05-08-2004, 01:08 AM
Hello!

The most imortant thing for children that age is to have fun and to feel that they are accepted for who they are. I accualy dont know what techniques i would have learned them. Maybe you should start whit some exersice game, and learn them fall techniques and i also think that different types of kokyunages would be good!.

Hope that I could help you!
isn't constant pratice of falling dangerous for that age?

Janet Rosen
05-08-2004, 01:58 AM
I can't imagine why rolling and falling would hurt kids. When I helped with kids classes (close to 4 yrs) 8 yrs old girls were ideal beginners: more focussed than 8 yr old boys, very self-regulating due to interest in rules and order. Rolling skills, games, and techniques without jointlocking/stress all worked really well. Probably the easiest technique to teach was shihonage.

master35
05-08-2004, 05:05 AM
I can't imagine why rolling and falling would hurt kids. .
how old are you ma'am? :)
how's your kidneys? mine hurts. :)
how's your falupian tube?
how many year have you been practicing? :)

GaiaM
05-08-2004, 06:05 AM
I REALLLY think that falling (safely and gently - we're not talking high breakfalls here) is just fine for kids. They bounce right back much more easily than adults. I know plenty of great aikidoists who started as kids and lots of trustworthy, experienced teachers who have no qualms about teaching them. But perhpas we should hear from someone with personal experience??
Gaia

Janet Rosen
05-08-2004, 11:12 PM
how old are you ma'am? :)
how's your kidneys? mine hurts. :)
how's your falupian tube?
how many year have you been practicing? :)
Excuse me? The state of, or even the existence of, my fallopian tubes are none of your, or anybody on this forum's, business.
I am a bit shy of 50 yrs old, and roll and fall just fine, thank you.

master35
05-09-2004, 03:53 AM
im sorry but i didn't mean that about anyones reproduct..organ..
yes i believe that its no joking matter.
what i meant was continues falling from a young age(even not high) would damage kidneys and perhaps i'm affraid to my young girls reproductive organ w/ continues falling practice.
lets say a girl from 10 til 30yrs old of constant practice on falling like judo would have a diffinite damage to her pregnancy(majority causing ectopic preg). medical research on women competing on judo research has made this.
so my stand as a long aikido practitioner is to limit falling practice at this age because even w/ a knowlegable instructor youngsters should practice throws and less on falls(except roll).

so i ask what technique they could aprreciate?(not falling or rolling but techniques)
pls. read my first post because im not good in english.

master35
05-09-2004, 04:04 AM
Excuse me? The state of, or even the existence of, my fallopian tubes are none of your, or anybody on this forum's, business.
I am a bit shy of 50 yrs old, and roll and fall just fine, thank you.
sorry maam rosen but didnt mean to offend you.

what dan are you now ma'am?yudansha?

PeterR
05-09-2004, 04:45 AM
You all might want to look at this article (http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1996/07_96/kulpa.htm).

Luis - there are just some things you don't ask a lady.

Some comments come to mind after reading the article. One is that the range of exercises that can cause problems is pretty broad and I suspect the intensity of the exercise has a lot to do with the problem. I don't think Aikido training in your average dojo is going to be that intense and if it where there is plenty of knowledge out there to prevent and alleviate the situation. I sure am not going to tell my wife and/or daughter that they can't do a particular sport because of that potential problem.

As for kids - they definately wont be that intense at 8 years old. I would be more concerned about the wrists but here in Japan the kids do all the Kihon that the adults do. Just that consideration is made for the lack of maturity.

master35
05-09-2004, 05:23 AM
You all might want to look at this article (http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/1996/07_96/kulpa.htm).

Luis - there are just some things you don't ask a lady.

Some comments come to mind after reading the article. One is that the range of exercises that can cause problems is pretty broad and I suspect the intensity of the exercise has a lot to do with the problem. I don't think Aikido training in your average dojo is going to be that intense and if it where there is plenty of knowledge out there to prevent and alleviate the situation. I sure am not going to tell my wife and/or daughter that they can't do a particular sport because of that potential problem.

As for kids - they definately wont be that intense at 8 years old. I would be more concerned about the wrists but here in Japan the kids do all the Kihon that the adults do. Just that consideration is made for the lack of maturity.
thanx for the medical link on uti but no need im a medical practitioner and leo.
ya i forgot since me and wife talk openly about anatomy. :D :D :D forgot some could be offenssive. :p

Ron Tisdale
05-10-2004, 01:15 PM
I'd say they'd only find it offensive if it was framed that way...hint hint hint hint...and since you're not married to anyone on this board that might be another clue.

Oh, and since when does being a doctor preclude you from reading medical research? I'd think you'd want to look at the article even more closely. And then offer an alternative perspective (backed up by research) if you deem it appropriate.

Ron (sheesh, language barriers only excuse so much)

NagaBaba
05-10-2004, 03:59 PM
I'd have someone teach them judo. Once their bones harden up a bit (what, about 15 or so?) then start aikido. YMMV

Ron
I fully support Ron here. Judo instructors have a LOT of experience, much more then aikido instructors how to teach kids. and most aikido instructors are simply too sloppy, and training for kids is boring as hell.

So go to judo dojo!

Scotto
05-10-2004, 04:50 PM
Yes this is an interesting subject. With so many variants on how children's bones develop, organ malfunction and so forth it can be confusing to know exactly what will happen. However, I am of the opinion that children tend to be more flexible, pliable and resilient that the average adult. In saying this every technique can be taught to a child. I recommend that if you are teaching children, to go to your local school and watch what kids get up to, the games they play and the way in which they interact with each other. This will give you a very clear indication the children will cope just fine with any technique including all joint locks, pins and throws. Aikido can be harsh or it can be graceful but everything comes down to conditioning and it takes time and steady progression. If you are a teacher of children my advise is to include a game at the end of class, we play suwari waza tag forwards some days backwards others. Its fun for the kids, the assistant instructors, the parents and the aikidoka that are waiting to do the next class.
So if anyone has some great games for kids I'd be interested in knowing about them.

giriasis
05-10-2004, 09:39 PM
We teach children from very young to late teens. We teach the kids class like an adult's basics class with warm-ups, then ukemi and footwork/ aiki exercises for the first half hour then depending on the class we will teach 2 to 3 techniques. We then will conclude with either a game like shikko soccer or dodge ball or they do 1-2-3 push over for the young ones and seated kokyu for the more advanced or older children.

We start the kids out at 10th kyu, and by the time they reach 6th kyu they have a wide knowledge of different techniques from ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, iriminage, kokyunage, tenchinage, etc. The tenkan, irimi and tenshin kokyunage throws are the first techniques we teach them then they progress upwards.

Children have an amazing capacity to learn aikido and are fearless in their ukemi, it's just up to the adults to be patient and keep them focused. Some of our teens have been training longer than me, over 5 years, and their basics are incredible and better than most adults.

As a woman I find it insulting to think that people still have the attitude that women's reproductive organs will be damaged by physical and sport activities. It has been a reason since the Victorian era until the late 1950's and early 1960's to keep the women in the home. I have done hard activities in my youth from swim team and Tae Kwon Do and my reproductive organs have not suffered. Please, that belief is old and outdated.

PeterR
05-10-2004, 10:02 PM
As a woman I find it insulting to think that people still have the attitude that women's reproductive organs will be damaged by physical and sport activities. It has been a reason since the Victorian era until the late 1950's and early 1960's to keep the women in the home. I have done hard activities in my youth from swim team and Tae Kwon Do and my reproductive organs have not suffered. Please, that belief is old and outdated.
Well yes and no.

When my wife teaches ballet she makes a point of teaching muscle control during jumps to prevent injury to certain reproductive organs.

This does not mean that women should not participate they should be aware and take care. Similar to men learning how to breakfall properly to protect their own.

master35
05-11-2004, 02:14 AM
I'd say they'd only find it offensive if it was framed that way...hint hint hint hint...and since you're not married to anyone on this board that might be another clue.

Oh, and since when does being a doctor preclude you from reading medical research? I'd think you'd want to look at the article even more closely. And then offer an alternative perspective (backed up by research) if you deem it appropriate.

Ron (sheesh, language barriers only excuse so much)
oh.oh.oh. hostile grounds.
BY THE WAY I READ IT!!! CLOSELY YEAH DOC NICE IDEA! YEAH I FIND IT APPROPRIATE!!!
SHEEEEEEEEEEEESH??????????? FOR LANGUAGE BARRIERS???????? DAMN YOUR VERY SMART!!!!!
OH BY THE WAY ARE YOU IN THIS PICTURE?
http://www.aikiweb.com/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=172&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=500

master35
05-11-2004, 02:18 AM
I fully support Ron here. Judo instructors have a LOT of experience, much more then aikido instructors how to teach kids. and most aikido instructors are simply too sloppy, and training for kids is boring as hell.

So go to judo dojo!
I AINT NO JUDO PRACTICIONER BUT I BET I COULD GIVE YOU AN SHONAGE W/ MY EYES CLOSED!!! WISH I COULD MEET YOU!!!

master35
05-11-2004, 02:21 AM
Yes this is an interesting subject. With so many variants on how children's bones develop, organ malfunction and so forth it can be confusing to know exactly what will happen. However, I am of the opinion that children tend to be more flexible, pliable and resilient that the average adult. In saying this every technique can be taught to a child. I recommend that if you are teaching children, to go to your local school and watch what kids get up to, the games they play and the way in which they interact with each other. This will give you a very clear indication the children will cope just fine with any technique including all joint locks, pins and throws. Aikido can be harsh or it can be graceful but everything comes down to conditioning and it takes time and steady progression. If you are a teacher of children my advise is to include a game at the end of class, we play suwari waza tag forwards some days backwards others. Its fun for the kids, the assistant instructors, the parents and the aikidoka that are waiting to do the next class.
So if anyone has some great games for kids I'd be interested in knowing about them.
thanx for the advise sir.

master35
05-11-2004, 02:35 AM
We teach children from very young to late teens. We teach the kids class like an adult's basics class with warm-ups, then ukemi and footwork/ aiki exercises for the first half hour then depending on the class we will teach 2 to 3 techniques. We then will conclude with either a game like shikko soccer or dodge ball or they do 1-2-3 push over for the young ones and seated kokyu for the more advanced or older children.

We start the kids out at 10th kyu, and by the time they reach 6th kyu they have a wide knowledge of different techniques from ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kotegaeshi, iriminage, kokyunage, tenchinage, etc. The tenkan, irimi and tenshin kokyunage throws are the first techniques we teach them then they progress upwards.

Children have an amazing capacity to learn aikido and are fearless in their ukemi, it's just up to the adults to be patient and keep them focused. Some of our teens have been training longer than me, over 5 years, and their basics are incredible and better than most adults.
thanx for sharing your info ma'am very much appreciated.

As a woman I find it insulting to think that people still have the attitude that women's reproductive organs will be damaged by physical and sport activities. It has been a reason since the Victorian era until the late 1950's and early 1960's to keep the women in the home. I have done hard activities in my youth from swim team and Tae Kwon Do and my reproductive organs have not suffered. Please, that belief is old and outdated.
that's rude granting you dont consider cultural background then this advise. yes i know lots of europians and i know how they raise thier child and some would find it very harsh. but i love my girls that much and to this reply is insulting. AND I DONT IMPLY OF MAKING MY GIRLS LOWER THAN BOYS. WHAT A SUGGESTION. I'M A FIGHTER OF WOMANS RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its countries having pro-abortions rights and lots of bloody phedophiles you should give this OLD AND OUTDATED SERMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :grr: :grr: :grr:

master35
05-11-2004, 02:39 AM
Well yes and no.

When my wife teaches ballet she makes a point of teaching muscle control during jumps to prevent injury to certain reproductive organs.

This does not mean that women should not participate they should be aware and take care. Similar to men learning how to breakfall properly to protect their own.
thanx sir thats the idea i wanted to pass in my thread but hardly understood. wish there was no smart alleck reply so just to enjoy a good conversation.

Ron Tisdale
05-11-2004, 09:09 AM
Dude, you need to seriously chill. Yes that is me in that picture, and also, I'm very easy to find.

Talk to you when you mature a little.

Ron

NagaBaba
05-11-2004, 09:46 AM
I AINT NO JUDO PRACTICIONER BUT I BET I COULD GIVE YOU AN SHONAGE W/ MY EYES CLOSED!!! WISH I COULD MEET YOU!!!
It will be real pleasure to meet you one day, luis lopez. I like very much your temperament. I had always very good practice with guys like you But for childresn, aikido is not good at all. They are not mature enough.

Fred Little
05-11-2004, 10:05 AM
I'd have someone teach them judo. Once their bones harden up a bit (what, about 15 or so?) then start aikido. YMMV

Ron




I fully support Ron here. Judo instructors have a LOT of experience, much more then aikido instructors how to teach kids. and most aikido instructors are simply too sloppy, and training for kids is boring as hell.

So go to judo dojo!

I fully support Szczepan fully supporting Ron.

As I've said a number of times in the past, if pitching Little League Baseball has a documented negative effect on the growth plates in the arm, it is hard to believe that repeated practice of joint-locking and hyperextension techniques would not also have a similar, perhaps more pronounced effect.

With all due respect to a number of posters, appeals to what is customary in Japanese aikido dojo should also be taken with a pound of kosher salt, inasmuch as Japanese sport in general, including major league baseball, seems to have a great many training regimens which conform more closely to cultural ideals than to sound exercise science. But Japanese civil law is quite different from US civil law.

In the event of a civil suit in the United States, there's a real possibility that failure to take recent and current research in this area into consideration could ultimately provide grounds for a substantive claim that the instructor or dojo was negligent, insofar as they failed to exercise "due diligence."

Given the right claim, without an adequate corporate structure or insurance protection for the dojo, a chief instructor might well find him or herself facing personal civil liablity in a jury trial. That's not a risk I would take lightly, whatever my personal views.

Best regards,

Fred Little

giriasis
05-11-2004, 10:09 AM
that's rude granting you dont consider cultural background then this advise. yes i know lots of europians and i know how they raise thier child and some would find it very harsh. but i love my girls that much and to this reply is insulting. AND I DONT IMPLY OF MAKING MY GIRLS LOWER THAN BOYS. WHAT A SUGGESTION. I'M A FIGHTER OF WOMANS RIGHTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its countries having pro-abortions rights and lots of bloody phedophiles you should give this OLD AND OUTDATED SERMON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Luis, if you are fighter of women's rights then you know how important it is for women to practice sports. The reasons I stated are from how women were treated in the U.S. and most likely other European countries. Women until very recently were discouraged from participating in sports in order to "protect us" and for fear of damaging our protective organs. When you go about asking another woman who you do not know on this board about her reproductive organs and then state that your worried that your girls will suffered problems with them because of some medical research which by the way a person can always find an opposite article to dispute it, then yes, a person could easily imply that you think women should not be participating in sports.

Regarding your cultural background, I take your words how you write them on this board. We weren't talking about culture here. We were talking about children practicing aikido. My proposition is that aikido isn't any more dangerous than children learning judo, tae kwon do, gymnastics, football or any other sport or sport-like activity. Children are very capable of learning aikido and they are not too immature to learn it (as others, not you, believe). Children classes work when people know how to teach children.

NagaBaba
05-11-2004, 10:22 PM
Children are very capable of learning aikido and they are not too immature to learn it (as others, not you, believe). Children classes work when people know how to teach children.
So you are saying, that direct students(at their twenties) of O sensei weren't able to catch with Founder ideas, but children, no problemo, cos present instructor know how to teach? Wow! I mean WOW!!!!

I would say this: 99.999% of aikido for children are in reality babysitting with pseudo-aikido games.Nothing to do with Budo and in fact it is insulting for serious aikido students.

PeterR
05-11-2004, 10:39 PM
Depends on how it is taught.

There is a long history of people being introduced to Budo at an early age.

I would even go so far as to say that Budo training proper only begins after some time training in a dojo. I think an adult can reach that state faster but like children they go through a stage of learning the basic movements.

I have seen the difference between me and a guy who's been training since 8 - he must have got something out of all those games.

master35
05-11-2004, 11:22 PM
Dude, you need to seriously chill. Yes that is me in that picture, and also, I'm very easy to find.

Talk to you when you mature a little.

Ron
why do you need to post this hostile remarks?"Talk to you when you mature a little."
if your in one of those senior respectable practitioners in the picture!!!
i think its you that needs to grow up with this sarcastic remarks.

to the admin pls. pm this guy. :mad:
he has no advice and giving disrespectful remarks that need retaliation. :grr:

master35
05-11-2004, 11:29 PM
It will be real pleasure to meet you one day, luis lopez. I like very much your temperament. I had always very good practice with guys like you But for childresn, aikido is not good at all. They are not mature enough.
oh by the way i practice aikido art for bullies and if bitten got my gunfo art. never lost my honor and respect. golden rule dont do it to others if you dont want others to do it to you.

master35
05-11-2004, 11:30 PM
Luis, if you are fighter of women's rights then you know how important it is for women to practice sports. The reasons I stated are from how women were treated in the U.S. and most likely other European countries. Women until very recently were discouraged from participating in sports in order to "protect us" and for fear of damaging our protective organs. When you go about asking another woman who you do not know on this board about her reproductive organs and then state that your worried that your girls will suffered problems with them because of some medical research which by the way a person can always find an opposite article to dispute it, then yes, a person could easily imply that you think women should not be participating in sports.

Regarding your cultural background, I take your words how you write them on this board. We weren't talking about culture here. We were talking about children practicing aikido. My proposition is that aikido isn't any more dangerous than children learning judo, tae kwon do, gymnastics, football or any other sport or sport-like activity. Children are very capable of learning aikido and they are not too immature to learn it (as others, not you, believe). Children classes work when people know how to teach children.
sorry maam wont happen again.

Suru
05-11-2004, 11:55 PM
I trained with an 8,9 or 10 yr old a few years ago. I was truly humbled. His technique was better than mine, and I'd been training for two years! He was capable of doing full break falls. Of course, I was gentle with him, as any other adult Aikidoka I've met would have been, but I really didn't have to be. This kid knew what was up.

I believe that kids can benefit greatly from training young. Aikido's probably better for them than little league or other sports, as their whole winning/losing nature can be bad for the soul. Then again, though, which would be better training for today's world?

Drew

MitchMZ
05-12-2004, 01:14 AM
I think the basics are what kids need to learn. Unfortunately, Aikido is a VERY complex art, which makes it difficult for children to learn what the basics truly are. I think it would be a very good idea to start with Judo then move onto Aikido. Or just suspend training until you feel they have matured enough. IMO, the basics of Judo are much more simple; but can actually help out many Aikido techniques, and vice versa. Even though I just started Aikido a few months ago, there have been a few instances where my uke was humbled by an addition of some hip action into my irimi nage when I do sloppy technique or they successfully resist the intial technique! Then its breakfall time for them, haha. Maybe that is an Aikido irimi variation lol...I wouldn't know but it seemed to work well. :freaky:

Frank R
05-12-2004, 01:36 AM
Ah, sad. How easy to forget O'sensei's aikido principles of patience, respect, tolerance, harmony, compassion, and so on. It is incredible how a simple question about children in aikido turned into adults ego challenges. Thanks to all for the opportunity to learn a little more about human nature. Respectfully,
Frank.

PeterR
05-12-2004, 02:22 AM
Forgot to add.

If you want to teach Aikido to kids - I think it can be done. Not interested in doing it myself but I see no difference between Judo, Kendo, Aikido, Karate, etc. in this regard.

If I had a kid that was so inclined my first choice would be Judo mainly because it emphasizes what kids do best - rolling around the floor - and provides a good basis for a number of different Budo depending on where their interests take them. It also toughens them up a lot better than kata training.

A final point Aikido and Judo in the end are the same - my view is that their beginning should be the same also.

arderljohn
05-12-2004, 03:26 AM
hi luis, I'm not an enemy nor your friend. I'm just here to share my experience in my teaching for the past 10 years. I once have a problem like you tell us. I have three Girls students age at 5, 7, 9 years old that was almost six years ago. I have a hard time to trained them especially to the ukemi part. but instead of stoping I found it very challenged, challenge of being a teacher to them for almost six years doing exercises and techniques so exhusted, tired, and wicked. but losing the challenge is my most fear of all. so I accept and swollowed everything..pratice,exercise, all of that was very minimal not extreme...now, I look at them as a good aikidoist. for me it was a very,very hard quest of teaching kids. lots of patience, courage, and trust. most of all participant and guide of Parents must be their.
hope you find a way to teach them..w/ your gauidance. perhaps, you just try to do kokyo nage or even other technique as long as you'll always take care of them. or don't let them fall or roll just do the technique in suwaru or tachi and dont do pinning technique.
good luck and best wishes.:)

Zoli Elo
05-12-2004, 06:16 AM
Check out this thread, More about how to teach young kid then what to teach them.

Can a youth class be taught the same as an adult(?) (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24427)

Best,
Zoli Elo

Orihime
05-12-2004, 07:45 AM
I think kids can really be initiated to the Aikido basics... as long as the teaching is adapted to their age and the training is not too long. If only that they can learn controling their movements and focusing. There are a lot of kids in my dojo and they move really good, even the youngest ones, and they seem really happy to practise. So, why not?

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2004, 07:58 AM
why do you need to post this hostile remarks?"Talk to you when you mature a little."
if your in one of those senior respectable practitioners in the picture!!!
i think its you that needs to grow up with this sarcastic remarks.

to the admin pls. pm this guy. :mad:
he has no advice and giving disrespectful remarks that need retaliation. :grr:

I haven't posted hostile remarks. You are the one who claimsBET I COULD GIVE YOU AN SHONAGE W/ MY EYES CLOSED!!! WISH I COULD MEET YOU!!!

I've simply let you know I'm available at your convenience.

As to advice, I've given it, and at least 3 other posters agreed with it...teach young kids judo. It gives them a good sense of balance, builds strength, and adds a solid base of technique that works.

You also ask rude questions of women, which I'm sure your compatriots would tolerate even less than we do. I also suggested that you provide some counter evidence to the article posted if you have it, so that we can make up our own minds based on the strength of your arguements, as opposed to your threats.

But hey, this is the internet, you can do what you like. Here's a suggestion though...PM me if you wish to continue this 'conversation'...perhaps we can reach an accomodation.

To the rest of the board, my appologies for my part in this.

Ron (not senior or all that respectable) Tisdale

Oh, and if Jun Akiyama (the Moderator/operator of this board) thinks I am out of line, he'll most likely say so publicly, as he should. I can take it... :) I've been wrong before...

giriasis
05-12-2004, 09:15 AM
Sczcepan,

I didn't say anything about O'Sensei's students not understanding aikido. I was talking about a child's capacity to learn it. For the past 5 years I have watched and helped assist in my dojo's children's classes. They do learn it differently, you just make them repeat over and over and over again. It's not rocket science we are teaching these children. Although, I see a difference in learning with older children, and they move through the ranks more quickly. But that doesn't mean a child of 6-8 years, even 4-5 years, can't learn the difference between irimi, tenkan, tenshin, uchi, soto, the difference between right and left hanmi and ai hanmi/ gyakyu hanmi. What I have seen in my dojo is that once a child reaches the point where they can test for 5th kyu and enter the adults program (usually after about 6 years of aikido) that their basics are better than most adults at 5th or 4th kyu. But, by comparison an adult who has trained for 6 years will be getting ready for their shodan. We are not handing out kiddy black belts here.

We don't just teach children games. It's about making the regular class fun and keeping their attention. An example of keeping it fun is having them count out loud in Japanese, and we have a couple of assistant instructors on the mat to help the kids. We have an assistant instructor who's a former elementary school gym teacher and is now a principle of a school in South Florida. If you get to watch him teach class you will see that it is possible for children to learn aikido, control a class, and do so in a loving manner.

Peter,

I do agree kids just love to roll around on the mat. We teach something to the children, especially the younger ones, called 1-2-3 push over. It's similar to seated kokyu-ho, but a little more fun for the kids. They love to make it a wrestling match. But if we take care, they learn about centering without even knowing and by the time they learn kokyu-ho, usually once the reach about 9th kyu, they get it.

MaryKaye
05-12-2004, 10:23 AM
I've been assisting with our childrens' classes for the last few weeks. One humbling part of this is that the kids have taught me several details of technique which I hadn't previously grasped. The more senior ones have many years of experience on me, and they know a *lot*. There's a green-belt ten-year-old who has been practicing since he was four, and honestly it would make sense for him to be teaching me (in fact, I may ask him to teach me kaitenage).

At our recent seminar we had not planned to include children (it was a physically challenging event even for adults) but several of them forgot that their Saturday class has been cancelled and showed up anyway, so they trained with us for an hour. They did extremely well, very focused and intent. They're not always that focused in their own classes, but they do learn.

I think one counter-argument to teaching judo initially is that if the child doesn't want a competitive environment, it may be hard to find a suitable judo school. We have two small girls who are comfortable with the aikido practice (and getting very good--they learn faster than most of the boys) but who are visibly turned off by competitiveness.

Mary Kaye

Ron Tisdale
05-12-2004, 01:27 PM
I think one counter-argument to teaching judo initially is that if the child doesn't want a competitive environment, it may be hard to find a suitable judo school.

Now this is a good arguement! I have had some trouble myself locating a non-competitive judo school to brush up on some basics. There are a lot of competitively based judo clubs out there now, it seems. It used to be so easy to find good judo, and to be able to find a place where the competition aspect wasn't so prominant.

On the subject of aikido 'kids' classes, I guess for myself or my kids (if I had them), I'd prefer a more stringent martial environment than what I've seen in many aikido kids classes. This is not to say there aren't good ones, or that they can't work, but just my opinion on what I'd prefer.

I also still have the same health concerns regarding joints that I mentioned earlier.

Ron (I do like the way the 4th dan seems to run the kids classes at the Doshinkan...but I've never really studied an entire class...I might take the time to do that)

Raul Roldan
05-13-2004, 08:26 AM
hi luis,

i thought i'd send you a private message (it didn't work; much too long for a private message) to just cover a few points that came up in your posts under the thread, "what to teach an eight year old".
by way of a background, i am also a Filipino, trying to learn aikido, and traveled extensively and lived in a number of countries including those of western culture.

no matter what i say, i guess, the following sounds like a lecture so i might as well begin with a few points:

1. you asked a very excellent question and from the number of responses, you must have realised that it is a topic that's quite on a lot of people's mind and you provided a very good trigger for the ensuing discussions.

2. you prefaced your question that you just want a conversation. what actually happened initially was just that, a conversation. but conversation as its nature, invites diverse points of view. it is inevitable therefore that there will be opposing views. it's like sitting in a stadium watching a game. your perspective is dependent upon where you're sitting: near the goal line, on the other side, up at the bleachers, down close to the where it is happening, etc. all see the same thing happening but from different angles; thus, the differences in perception. and that comes out in a conversation about the game. so will in any conversation. thus, anyone who may put an opposing view to yours was not necessarily attacking you personally; rather, just presenting a point of view. having recognised that, what is best is to inquire where the person is coming from; that is, pursuing a line of inquiry that allows you to either find a point of convergence or just merely agree to disagree.

3. english is, in a lot of ways, a very fluid language. one word, can come with many different meanings. that may mean you'll have to listen to the context. obviously, context is more often a function of culture. or even mood, at times. or whatever element very specific to a locale or even to the person speaking. that means, one need to listen more; and in internet better to pursue a line of inquiry that try to understand the meaning of a statement, that is, to get to the context. often, too a conversation in the english world is just that: a conversation. some pursue to gain knowledge or understanding. at other times, it is a means to just be in a group and contribute because you belong to it or you enjoy the company or enjoy the topic or some other reasons because it's there. at some other times, it is just to pass the time. as in our country, courtesy and respect of each other are essential elements. thus, the way we phrase our words or questions takes into consideration the feelings, backgrounds, sensibilities and other such elements depending upon the composition (race, gender, beliefs, affiliations, etc). Not that we get overly politically correct but just being polite and courteous. as we have an expectation that we be respected, we do so by respecting others and recognising they have the same expectations. in the net, a lot of us are unaware of each other's background and culture but it does not excuse us to abandon common courtesy and even try to learn that what we may consider acceptable may not necessarily be acceptable to others. there are just statement you don't say or questions you don't ask. this mean if we go into an international forum as aikiweb's, we conduct some bit of research into the mores and culture of others. we may still commit faux pas but we know we can evolve if we just be more sensitive of others. after all, isn't developing a sense of awareness and sensitivity to all around us one of the aspects we try to learn in aikido.

4. the net is not really akin to the mat. thus, it does not really matter what anyone's rank is. again, if our purpose is to gain understanding, we can learn from everyone whatever their rank (or status in life). it's all part, i guess, of growing our aikido. and maturing as humans.

5. i've been a regular (i mean, practically every day even if i haven't before bothered to join or post) visitor to aikiweb and always make it a point to read the various threads in the forum. i immensely enjoy reading them even if i'm merely watching. thus, i believe i can say, that ron (tisdale), janet (rosen), and anne marie (giri) have always reasoned thoughts in their post and it is apparent (to me) that they enjoy the exchange of ideas and are not really bothered by personalities unless their personal spaces or sensibilities are tried. they are more likely to be more positive towards you (and you will note that they really were even if you've perceived them hostile) if you don't take offense at perceived slight where none was really intended. it would also help if you don't shout (writing in uppercase) or swear (with those angry icons). aikiweb is our forum and we all have something to contribute. in the spirit of harmony, it does not really help to feel slighted where none is intended and you don't really get a negative reaction unless you start one. why not just blend and seek to understand. otherwise, in the typical tradition of the human race, you'll find that you'll be allowed to fall on your own sword. you may not have noticed it but it's already started. to your credit, you've apologised where you recognised the different point of view when pointed out to you.

i hope this helps.

cheers,

raul

Ron Tisdale
05-13-2004, 08:44 AM
Raul,

Your wonderful post makes me slightly ashamed...I could have tried harder to explain to Luis what the problems were, in perhaps a more sensitive way.

Thank you,

Ron (always learning) Tisdale

Oh, and welcome to posting on the board!

GaiaM
05-13-2004, 09:09 AM
Thank you Raul - Right on, mate!
Gaia

Raul Roldan
05-14-2004, 04:17 AM
Thanks, Ron. Glad to be here. Say, i visited your website once. Indeed, a man of many talents. Cheers.

Raul

Raul Roldan
05-14-2004, 04:20 AM
Thank you Raul - Right on, mate!
Gaia

You're welcome, Gaia. And thanks, too. Say, you're in one of my favourite places in the US. Was there in 2001.

Cheers,

Raul

Ron Tisdale
06-01-2004, 08:08 AM
An interesting link to an article by Ellis Amdur, aikidoka, and practioner of koryu.

http://www.aikidojournal.com/?id=159

I think he gives an interesting viewpoint on this topic.

Ron