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Sonnyboy
05-05-2004, 01:39 AM
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?

Clayton Drescher
05-05-2004, 02:17 AM
Take jiu jutsu;-)

Seriously though...my dojo now has a jiu jutsu class once a week so a bunch of us aikido folk roll around on top of eachother. Its a totally different sphere of movement, and I don't know nearly enough to see much overlap between the arts, but knowing more about any martial art never hurts

Bronson
05-05-2004, 03:22 AM
how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert?

Well since I'm not an aikido expert I'd probably get my butt kicked.

If I went against someone who has the same relative skill level in jujutsu as I have in aikido...hmm, I still have no idea :D And to be truthfull, that doesn't bother me in the least.

Bronson

PeterR
05-05-2004, 03:32 AM
Don't let him fight his fight - make him fight yours.

Sonnyboy
05-05-2004, 03:50 AM
Don't let him fight his fight - make him fight yours. <-- what if his on top of u? how can u fight that? im talking about he has already take u to the ground and make a full mount or a side mount? how can u escape that?

Bronson
05-05-2004, 03:59 AM
Then you have let him fight his fight.

Bronson

PeterR
05-05-2004, 04:08 AM
Then you have let him fight his fight.
And have already lost.

If you are seriously worried - cross-train. Or just grab your dojo buddies and experiment.

MitchMZ
05-05-2004, 08:00 AM
Actually, seeing as I have a fair amount of BJJ experience and have about 3 months of Aikido experience I recently came across something really cool. I was grappling on the ground and was in the gaurd position and I got my dad with some sort of an Ikkyo pin. He was like, "What the hell was that!?," and I just smiled. Aikido is very dynamic indeed.

John Boswell
05-05-2004, 10:04 AM
Is "ground fighting" another reason we train kokyu dosa and suwari waza in Aikido? It just occured to me reading this thread that if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"

I've never had anyone try to grapple with me in a serious fashion. Brother's are good for rough-housing but nothing serious. I should think if you can avoid the pin, despite being taken to the ground, you should be able to manuver and start some suawari waza and pin their butts with ease... granted you've trained enough in it. ;)

2 cents :D

MitchMZ
05-05-2004, 10:37 AM
John, that makes perfect sense. I agree with pretty much everyone, you should bring the opponent into a position where you feel most comfy. Not vice versa. Then you will be relaxed and techniques will flow with ease (assuming you have a fair amount of training). Still, for some reason, I feel most comfy on the ground. Aikido is really helping to me feel comfortable in every aspect of self defense, though.

Kevin Leavitt
05-05-2004, 01:17 PM
I train Army Combatives once in a while with my unit. For those of you who do not know the U.S. Army is basically using BJJ as its base now. So we almost always start from the mount.

It is interesting to say the least. Not enough room, time, or interest to discuss at length....but you have to be careful not to fall into the BJJ vs. Aiki trap. I fall for it all the time.

I have discussed a little with the guy that basically founded the Army's system, which I am critical of because it assumes one opponent and you are on the ground. Not a great place for a soldier to be in since many hand2hand involve multiple opponent. I think aikido type stuff works best since it's premise is multiple opponent stay moving and active. He had a reason for doing it and it makes sense to me after discussing it with him. (won't go into it here).

You really cannot use aikido against BJJ, or for that matter anyother art....you use what works for the situation. In a "army" training situation I work within the constraints of their rules. In aikido in the constraints of their rules. It is hard to apply "technique" in any given situation and say it is aiki or BJJ or karate...whatever.

Experience matters and the more you have the better off you are.

To answer the question. IMO you avoid the mount if you want to stay alive. That is if your situation and premise is dealing with life and death fighting that may involve multiple opponents. So if you have a gun you may use that. A chair if you have that. A stick, a kick, whatever.

No one stops a fight and says "wow" great technique...is that Aikido?

willy_lee
05-05-2004, 01:52 PM
Is "ground fighting" another reason we train kokyu dosa and suwari waza in Aikido? It just occured to me reading this thread that if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"
The problem is the getting on to your knees. If someone takes you down halfway and you both land on your knees, fine. You can use that. But if you are taken down all the way and land on your back or your front, you must first get to your knees. If someone is on top of you and knows what he/she's doing or is just bigger than you, getting to your knees is a non-trivial problem.

Personally, I think suwari waza does help. Getting hip power into your movements helps. Being comfortable and mobile in a situation when your on your knees helps. Just think about how mobile you were from your knees before you started aikido practice.

It's easy enough to go into a grappling practice from aikido. Start with kokyu dosa, up the resistance, look for counters, continue after the first "takedown", add in use of legs while on the ground, keep playing. I think this is great fun and only wish we did more of this.

=wl

MitchMZ
05-05-2004, 02:32 PM
I don't think its bad to able to apply techniques you learned from any given system in a new situation, though. Its important to be able to adapt, not just stand there and say they didn't teach me that! Strangely enough I find that BJJ works well for water fighting (yes I have trained with this) and if you happen to get taken down by a bigger guy. Obviously, you don't want to be on the ground long in a self defense situation. It isnt bad to know how to defend yourself on the ground though either. What if you get tackled onto your back by a guy with a knife? What if you can't get to your knees or feet!? Then knowing BJJ would be a huge help! Its non-realistic to assume you can keep the situation where you want it to be 100 percent of the time. In such case, it would be on your feet and alert. Thats why cross training is such a good thing ;)

PeaceHeather
05-05-2004, 02:45 PM
Ya know, I've heard anecdotes from people regarding ground-fighting being a good self-defense technique in situations where your attacker is likely to pin you... like a rape situation. But I know too little about any art to do more than go, "wow, neat story". *shrug*

I don't even know enough to know if aikido *has* techniques that operate from a position like that. Is there stuff that operates with uke above, and tori lying on their back?

Just curious at this point. Interesting discussion.
Heather

Chad Sloman
05-05-2004, 02:48 PM
not that I'm aware of, which is a major criticism of aikido

William Westdyke
05-05-2004, 04:30 PM
<Laughs> I actually cross train in Aikido and Jui-Jitsu and remember when I was starting with the Jui-Jitsu. I was always trying to use my Aikido in the Jui-Jitsu class. What I quickly discovered was not much works when you're mounted. I did manage one nikyo but what really seemed to work best was creative atemi's. They jump right off when you bite them, or pinch the fat on their side. But then it usually pisses people off. Personally, I think Clayton hit it. Take Jui-Jitsu.

Bronson
05-05-2004, 05:50 PM
Is there stuff that operates with uke above, and tori lying on their back?

Depends entirely on your dojo. Our sensei has a background in judo so he's taken that experience and mixed aikido in with it, so in our dojo yes there is.

Bronson

Infamousapa
05-05-2004, 07:50 PM
well first off you shouldnt think about his art much...i dont mean to sound stupid but do not fill your self up with what if his art attacks me like this or like that..stay calm and envision the fight differently thru different eyes.if you stay calm and pretend you are fighting with weapons on hand..jiujitsu practitioners will try to take you down like u said..with their head down aiming towards your feet if you stay calm you would see that technique is really unsafe for the jiu jitsu practioner but if you are ready with a worried heart your eyes wont see his technique thru these eyes....

Aristeia
05-05-2004, 08:18 PM
Ok, so you're sparring with a BJJ'er and he's getting you in mount, then submitting you and you want to know how to escape? Hmm, if only there was someone nearby that is used to being in these positions and might know how to counter them. IOW, why don't you just ask the guy you're sparring with? My experience has been most MAists are happy to share their knowledge when asked.

Or are you looking for a specifically Aikido response to the takedown/mount/submission? If so then I have some bad news for you. There ain't one. Which of course isn't to say there isn't an AIKI response. If you take the concepts that gave birth to aikido and examine how they may apply when your feet aren't on the ground and you have to find completely different models for movement, and then practice that application throughly testing it against an opponant, you will find many ways to counter. This is called BJJ.

Aristeia
05-05-2004, 08:24 PM
<Laughs> I actually cross train in Aikido and Jui-Jitsu and remember when I was starting with the Jui-Jitsu. I was always trying to use my Aikido in the Jui-Jitsu class. What I quickly discovered was not much works when you're mounted. I did manage one nikyo but what really seemed to work best was creative atemi's. They jump right off when you bite them, or pinch the fat on their side. But then it usually pisses people off. Personally, I think Clayton hit it. Take Jui-Jitsu.

I'm with you. Aikido doesn't work on the ground because we can't move on the ground. Imagine what your sensei would say if we walked by and saw you trying to apply a technique throught arm strength alone, with no body movement. It wouldn't be complimentary right? Yet that's what attempts at Aikido on the ground tend to be. You're pinned on your back or your side (for eg) so cannot move so the result is desperately trying to muscle on a nikyo or similar. Occassionally you get lucky against an unskilled opponant (there's an armbar escape that leaves uke open for a nikyo nicely), but even then it's a oncer. Once they've been caught once you won't catch them again.

No. Just like when you first walk into an Aikido dojo, the first thing you need to do is learn how to move properly, the first thing you need to do on the ground is learn how to move. How do I manuver my body when I'm on my back? Where am I trying to maneuver to? IOW what are the basic positions and how do I transition between them. Until you know that, any attempt to apply any technique from any art is futile.

Largo
05-06-2004, 01:07 AM
It would depend on what the opponent did. If he went for a tackle, I'd try to knee him in the face. If he grabbed me, I'd go for a lock.

Chris Birke
05-06-2004, 03:21 AM
To defend yourself in the full mount of a juijitsu expert, keep your hands tight on your chest, and protect your kneck and collar.

Chad Sloman
05-06-2004, 09:01 AM
When he goes for the single/double leg takedown, draw your katana and decapitate him. :D

PeaceHeather
05-06-2004, 09:37 AM
Aw, but Chad, mall security gets so *huffy* whenever I do that...
Heather

William Westdyke
05-06-2004, 11:26 AM
Chad's my hero! Why didn't I think of that!

Chris, no slight intended, but try that against a martial arts EXPERT in any budo and you're gonna get worked. Against a Jui-jitsu expert you're in even deeper that that. Jui-jitsu usually teaches how to deal with someone "keeping their hands tight on their chest, and protecting their neck and collar" on the first day. Then they spend the next 10 years perfecting how to get by people who are countering the things that usually work.

Like I said, no offense intended.

willy_lee
05-06-2004, 11:59 AM
I'm pretty sure Chris was just trying to give basic pointers on the first things to do for a compleat beginner when mounted. Look around at his other posts and I think you'll see he knows a bit more than that about the ground game.

A beginner under mount who did not keep hands in tight and protect collar would get worked even faster, as I'm sure you are aware.

=wl

jester
05-06-2004, 02:31 PM
"if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"

Hi John, from my experience, with most take downs and throws you end up on your side or back. it's not very easy to get to your knees because the thrower follows you down and tries to get a superior position quite fast. Learning how to bridge (judo term) and move on the ground would be well worth the time, but once caught, if your not skilled on the ground, you will probably get hurt choked or locked.


Kevin Leavitt:
Are you stationed in Hohenfels, Germany now?
I used to be in 4-67 armor in Friedberg 3AD.
I've been to Hohenfels a few times. And Grafenwoher a lot.

Tharis
05-06-2004, 02:44 PM
Just to make things a little more messy...

As I understand it, jiu-jitsu (among other things, I'm sure) tends to emphasize grappling with a single attacker. Aikido tends (among other things) to emphasize movement among multiple attackers. I think it's reasonably clear that pure aikido training does not prepare one for well for grappling. My question is:

What would the jiu-jitsu response be to three or four attackers?

Just wondering...

Thomas

Chris Birke
05-06-2004, 03:17 PM
I was being sarcastic =). Simple question, simple answer!

I've thought up a koan: The Aikido response to a mounted juijitsu expert is the same as the juijitsu response to multiple attackers.

Chad Sloman
05-06-2004, 03:29 PM
which is: DOH! :eek:

MikeE
05-06-2004, 03:33 PM
Having about 5 years of BJJ experience in addition to my Aikido, I found it amazing that when I trained with my sensei his ground defenses from the mount were just like doing upa or elbow escape in BJJ with the difference being that in Aikido we don't try to submit the attacker while on the ground, we are looking to escape and get back up where we are more comfortable, namely on our feet.

MitchMZ
05-06-2004, 06:04 PM
Yeah, just like any martial art, a good JJ person will move a lot even when mounted. I find even if I have someone in the gaurd I still like to "move around" their side while keeping some contact and try to apply an arm bar from there. Kinda like a half umpa. Hard to explain, excuse my vagueness. I think it is futile to just stay stationary when you have someone in the gaurd. Although, with powerful legs you can make someone almost pee themselves by applying pressure to the kidneys (almost did that once). Ultimately, movement is essential.

jester
05-07-2004, 10:05 AM
As I understand it, jiu-jitsu (among other things, I'm sure) tends to emphasize grappling with a single attacker. Aikido tends (among other things) to emphasize movement among multiple attackers.

There are many different styles of Jujitsu. Brazilian Jujitsu is what exposed grappling to the mainstream through the UFC, but there is a lot more to jujitsu than ground work.

I studied Miyama Ryu Jujitsu, and we had many defenses against multiple attackers. The attackers would wield knives and clubs most of the time. In our school, they didn't emphasize grappling that much at all, and it was said that thats the last place you want to end up. Multiple attacks are common in most martial arts and not special to aikido.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the multiple attacks that I have seen in aikido seem more to be about movement drills and not real attacks per se.

Ron Tisdale
05-07-2004, 10:27 AM
Hi Tim,

Depends on the dojo. Some focus more on grabbing the Shite/Nage and bringing them to the ground, some focus more on striking attacks, some do a combination.

RT

Tharis
05-07-2004, 02:28 PM
There are many different styles of Jujitsu. Brazilian Jujitsu is what exposed grappling to the mainstream through the UFC, but there is a lot more to jujitsu than ground work.

I studied Miyama Ryu Jujitsu, and we had many defenses against multiple attackers. The attackers would wield knives and clubs most of the time. In our school, they didn't emphasize grappling that much at all, and it was said that thats the last place you want to end up. Multiple attacks are common in most martial arts and not special to aikido.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the multiple attacks that I have seen in aikido seem more to be about movement drills and not real attacks per se.

Thanks for answering. I should've prefaced my previous statement by saying that I don't know a whole lot about Jujitsu, and that what I think I know comes partly from general reading and partly from observing a local Brazilian Jujitsu club.

In our dojo, randori practice emphasizes movement because the emphasis in aikido is less on taking down the attacker and more on not getting hit. The ukes are still intent on grabbing or hitting nage, and nage still tries to throw them, but we teach that it's important for nage not to waste too much time dealing with one uke when there's another uke coming up from behind.

Also, most of the students in our dojo are relative beginners, so going straight into "real" attacks (with knives and clubs I presume) would be counterproductive: most of them would probably get creamed before they had a chance to learn anything. The lesson has to be geared to the skill level of the student.

If you're questioning the "reality" of the attacks used in Aikido, there are many forums on this site devoted to that topic. It seems to be pretty controversial.

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas

Alvaro Lobato
05-07-2004, 03:33 PM
I practice Aikido, and a little BJJ.

In my experience, there are few options for the full mount, being the use of JJ techniques the most obvious one.

On the other hand I must comment that several fist and finger torsions are not used in general trainning in a BJJ mat. Therfore, depending on how the action evolves, it is possible to think on a nikyo or sankyo or some finger torsion to be used.

The weakest point of grappling fight, of course, is the use of dirty techniques such as biting, eye gouging, and so on.

But let´s not fool ourselves, being on the ground with a ground specialist, such a BJJ figther is a serious problem.

jester
05-07-2004, 04:41 PM
Thanks Ron for the info. Our style was a mix of karate, aikido and judo. A lot of hard blocks, then hip throws, elbow locks etc. A friend of mine studies at a jujitsu school that is more like boxing and grappling. It seems like a lot of people think all jujitsu is like this.

Thomas, I see your point, I just wanted to give a little info on the different styles of jujitsu so people don't think it's all grappling.

As far as the weapons go, we trained to defend against them almost from the first day of class. The attacks were simple though, like a strike to the head with a stick, or a knife stab to your stomach. I like the attack training with a stick or knife. You can do simple attacks with white belts to, and progressively work up to faster attacks, then multiple attackers with different weapons.

When I trained at an Aikikai dojo, the instructor would attack us with a jo. We would have to move off the line really fast, or you would get a bruised arm. :crazy:

Hara
05-30-2004, 02:14 AM
Ooo this is an interesting discussion,

Well, I'm not experienced enough to discuss the techniques to apply in this situation but I can say you can use aikido. I think as a beginner we worry about this style, or this type of attack, or this environment, when in fundamentals, its all the same. In other words, its no different if he has a gun, or a knife, you have to use Aikido principles.

Some principles I think would apply: Moving where the attack is ineffective (at the far limit, or at the close limit), leading control (through atemi or what, again I'm no expert), maintain your center, keeping your hands in front of you, and blending.

As a beginner I don't think we'd know the best techniques to use in each situation, but we may do things that will keep us in the fight (or out).

Keith_k
05-30-2004, 05:41 AM
As I read this question, I have to ponder: just how did I wind up in the full mount in the first place? Being mounted is a dangerous position to be in; even experienced grapplers can have a hard time escaping from it. It is douptfull that I am going to lay down and let an enemy crawl on top of me. Despite what some grapplers believe, there is no magic force that automitically throws "real" fights to the ground once physical conflict occurs. Untrained street thugs fall to the groud easily; martial artists with well developed balance and centers are not so easy to be taken down. First I would have to be taken down, which I will not let happen easily. Then, once on the ground, I will have to be mounted, which I will also not allow easily. There is a pretty unlikely sequence of "what if's" that have to happen. There are only so many "what if's" that a person can reasonably train for. What if you get attacked by a thousand ninjas with machine guns?

Devin McDowell
05-30-2004, 06:20 AM
What if you get attacked by a thousand ninjas with machine guns? Find a religion really quickly? ;)

paw
05-30-2004, 08:38 AM
martial artists with well developed balance and centers are not so easy to be taken down.

Respectfully, the results of mixed martial arts competitions (KOTC, UFC, K-1, Pride, etc...) beg to differ.

Regards,

Paul

George S. Ledyard
05-30-2004, 12:04 PM
These questions of what if a guy from style "A" encounters an Aikido guy from teacher/style/organization "B"? are really silly.

The martial arts trade journals estimate that only 1% of the population is interested in taking martial arts classes at all. Of that 1% only 10% or less will stay to attain any degree of skill at all. Of that already small number, how many are actual bad guys who, you might encounter in a fight? For law enforcement, only 1% of the folks they arrest resist to the level where it becomes a fight. And they are actively seeking out bad guys, not avoiding them as we are supposed to do.

You are far more likely to have a gun pulled on you by someone you know, at least in the states, or be attacked by a family member using a kitchen knife. Your chance of being accosted on the street or in a bar by your local equivalent of Royce Gracie are infinitesimally small.

From a purely training standpoint, if you look at the BJJ guys, there is a lot of aiki there. They are very relaxed, very efficient. The idea that your Aikido doesn't apply on the ground is not valid. Aikido is not a set of techniques like nikkyo. All of what you know about body mechanics, balance angles, etc still applies you just aren't used to working them without the aid of moving your feet. Power still comes from the hips, they still tip over at all the same angles they did when they were upright, their joints still lock just as they did when you were standing. But now you have other possibilities such as using the legs to run those balance lines or apply a lock... I see no reason that one can’t incorporate some ground work into his Aikido and still be using aiki. If you look at the Systema ground fighting work it is very aiki, completely compatible with the principles of Aikido.

The reason that there is no ground fighting in Aikido is that our art derives from the old battle field combat done by samurai who were walking weapons systems. Everything we do pre-supposes that the opponent is armed and that there are more than one of them. If you are out on the battle field you do not want to be on your back applying the perfect elbow lock to your enemy when his buddy decides to stick you with a spear. The mounted position is just an opportunity to be stabbed or cut by another attacker because you can't move from it worth a darn.

Worrying about Aikido vs BJJ is like the knife guys talking incessantly about knife vs knife fighting. In most places in the modern world this is a less likely scenario than winning the lottery. Nobody is going to duel you with knives. If they want to kill you they will ambush you and you will be stabbed before you ever even know it's an edged weapons situation.

tedehara
05-30-2004, 03:29 PM
Very well thought out response Ledyard Sensei.

:)

Richard Cardwell
05-30-2004, 03:33 PM
Worryingly enough, that isn't the case in areas in my town (not Belfast, incidentally, but nearby). There are knife/knife fights fairly frequently on a Saturday night- I really don't know why. Absence of police, some deeply shady types, and a super-abundance of alcohol, I suppose. However, that's just a bizarre recent trend, and the police will hopefully get a handle on it soon.

However, I have to agree with the above sentence Ledyard sensei- thank you for injecting some realism!

Aristeia
05-30-2004, 04:34 PM
As I read this question, I have to ponder: just how did I wind up in the full mount in the first place? Being mounted is a dangerous position to be in; even experienced grapplers can have a hard time escaping from it. It is douptfull that I am going to lay down and let an enemy crawl on top of me. Despite what some grapplers believe, there is no magic force that automitically throws "real" fights to the ground once physical conflict occurs. Untrained street thugs fall to the groud easily; martial artists with well developed balance and centers are not so easy to be taken down. First I would have to be taken down, which I will not let happen easily. Then, once on the ground, I will have to be mounted, which I will also not allow easily. There is a pretty unlikely sequence of "what if's" that have to happen. There are only so many "what if's" that a person can reasonably train for. What if you get attacked by a thousand ninjas with machine guns?

The only real "what if" is what if you are attacked by someone that knows how to grapple/groundfight. As Paul has said, there is strong evidence to support the thesis that it is hard to maintain distance - it's much easier for a grappler to force us into their range than it is for us to keep them at ours. And it is EXTREMELY difficult to stay on your feet against someone who wants to take you to the ground - even if they're untrained.
I agree with George - there are aiki principals that apply on the ground and there is no reason we shouldn't teach them in aikido class from time to time. Sure it's not what alot of people have signed up for, but if we don't give people at least some idea of the basic mechanics of the ground game, aren't we being remiss as teachers of a martial art?

George S. Ledyard
05-30-2004, 06:00 PM
Worryingly enough, that isn't the case in areas in my town (not Belfast, incidentally, but nearby). There are knife/knife fights fairly frequently on a Saturday night- I really don't know why. Absence of police, some deeply shady types, and a super-abundance of alcohol, I suppose. However, that's just a bizarre recent trend, and the police will hopefully get a handle on it soon.

However, I have to agree with the above sentence Ledyard sensei- thank you for injecting some realism!

It's a bit different in the Britain and Ireland... guns are of course fairly rare, but any altercation whether at a soccer match or at a concert or pub could easily inlvolve an edged weapon. Security people at those venues have to be very careful. There is very much a tradition of almost formalized brawling in the UK and that can include knives.

Mark Barlow
05-30-2004, 10:25 PM
I think the problem many folks run into is thinking that techniques are exclusive to a particular style. Over the years, I've tried to internalize principle rather than technique so that I don't have to do a mental inventory of what throw/escape/counter goes where. If I can just remember that A. always goes against B., my options are greatly increased. My focus has been primarily Japanese grappling arts (Jujutsu, Aikido, Judo) but even during 3 years of Muay Thai study, I still tried to use principle to arrive at the right technique. Of course, it doesn't always work but even getting my head handed to me on a platter now and then can be educational.

Mark Barlow

csinca
06-03-2004, 02:50 PM
I got to this party a bit late but I've been through this line of discussion before:

While hopefully none of us have the Gracies or Machados out looking for us, there are a lot of people that are training in grappling these days. Within 15 miles of my house I know of 5 separate BJJ programs, and that's without looking too hard, there are probably 5 more that I don't know about. Again, most of these guys aren't going to cause trouble... but, I'm training to protect myself and others from the bad guy that is going to cause trouble. And the one that I'm worried about is the guy that knows something about fighting, maybe even grappling.

I'm not saying "all fights go the the ground" or anything like that but I think it is naive to think "I just won't go to the ground", particularly when your defense is based on training in an aikido dojo with guys that don't know takedowns (that's me)! While we want to stay in our preferred range (standing), the other guy apparently has a different preferred range and is trying to take you there. If he can't get you there, you are doing well and you never have to ask how to get out of the mount. Should you find yourself in the mount (or on the ground at all) then the other guy was simply better (or luckier) in determining the range.

If you end up on the ground with a grappler there are loads of options from Aikido, as has been mentioned before. Grabbing and going for an ikkyo, or nikkyo probably won't get you far but rather relax, move around the power, disturb his base, parry/blend/redirect his attacks. Your options depend on what he is doing.

Is he sitting back on your hips? If he is, he's not going to be able to deliver much punching power unless he has very long arms. Is he going for a choke in which case his arms are extended and yours are free (think kote). Can you hook and bridge from here?

Is he up on your chest in position to pound on you? Think more of a sticky hands/trapping strategy. connect to his arms and when he rears back to punch you, let your arm go along for the ride and redirect his strike. Or, since he's now up on your chest, your hips can move, disturb his base with your legs and hips....Can you hook and bridge from here?

Keep in mind that many BJJ tournaments don't allow "small joint manipulation" which are fingers to you and I. There are a lot of grapplers that I've seen that don't protect their fingers as a matter of habit.

Think movement rather than technique.

Chris

Hermosa
06-19-2004, 03:23 PM
Well as a BJJ'er I certainly have a lot I could add to this but the thread is fairly long here...I just have one thing in response to Chris, and Ledyard Sensei,

Hopefully, (and I know this isn't always the case) a well trained BJJ guy would never attack anyone just like some one in Aikido wouldn't. BJJ is ment to be a defensive art.

What you have to think about is that 97% of Adult males in the US either participated in Football or Wrestling in highschool and possibly on in college, that means one thing--Tackling! Its not really about BJJ vs. Aikido...its about aikido vs. large, angry men diving at your legs!

If you are really wanting to know for sure...find a friend that used to wrestle or play football, go to the mat and see if you can avoid getting taken down..simple.

For any other points I might make..I will simply add this link to a great interview regarding Aikido and BJJ.

www.aiki.com/sneak/yamashita.html

Michael Neal
06-19-2004, 11:29 PM
I would not worry about running into someone like Royce Gracie in a street fight but, like Matt said above, you could easily end up against a former high school or college wrestler. Having some ground fighting skills in my view is very important. Even somone with no wresling experience who is bigger and stronger will likely squash you on the ground if you are not prepared. And please leave suwariwaza out of this because it is pretty silly to think this would work against even a beginner in any grappling art. Suwariwaza as far I was told was a way to refine your standing technique by emphasizing hip movement, not a realistic form of ground fighting.

Those that say "well just dont let yourself be mounted" or "don't go to the ground" may be issuing good advice but it is only an ideal and not always realistic. If someone with grappling experience gets their hands on you in an attack you have a very high chance of the fight going to the ground. Then what? I guess you are in big trouble.

In a multi attacker scenerio it would surely be pretty stupid to deliberately bring the fight to the ground. But having the skills to escape from pins, get in a superior position, break people's arms, release grips, choke people out etc. is incredibly valuable because these techniques give you a chance to break free and stand up to meet the other attackers. If you did not know any of this you are pretty much going to be pinned and probably kicked until near death.

csinca
06-20-2004, 10:21 AM
I agree with what Matt and Micheal have written.

Matt, I didn't mean to infer that any BJJ guys are likely to start a fight or attack someone. I hope it didn't come across that way!

chris

ValiantMouse
06-27-2004, 10:44 PM
This has been a very interesting string to read. I've enjoyed reading the different perspectives that folks have offered.
Having trained both with aikido and bjj I have to say I'm happy to have learned both. if you want to compete then go with BJJ, if not aikido is good. Funny, I would have thought that I would have used BJJ in hostile situations which I find myself in occasionally. Each time it's been aikido and it's been motor response, the situations were over be for I realized what I was doing ( thank goodness) and only after did I realize what technique was employed and it didn't even seem as if it was me doing it. Also, the efficiently subdued nobody was permanently injured. I have never used BJJ but I would never want to go into a situation, especially with a trained fighter without my bjj training. A good technician is likely not to come in committed with an initial attack and so far this is all I've faced in the real world. If that is the case aikido is likely going to be difficult to apply and if I end up on the ground, well with all respect to aikido I'm going with BJJ. I hope that never comes to pass, and that is, I think aikido.
I train in a traditional aikido environment and I don't think It would be appropriate to bring BJJ into our dojo and would never want to be disrespectful toward my teacher. How do other aikido practitioners see that thought? However I would strongly encourage aikidoka to spend a little time with an established BJJ practitioner. Actually sambo and a few other similar grappling arts would be similar if BJJ was not available.
I trained in BJJ quite a while ago before it was popular in the US. It seems that there is a lot of it around now. If you do decide to train be careful when choosing a training center.

cheers

John

eyrie
01-03-2005, 05:13 AM
Is "ground fighting" another reason we train kokyu dosa and suwari waza in Aikido? It just occured to me reading this thread that if someone had me on the ground, I would instinctively get first on to my knees. "Duh! That's suwari waza!"

I've never had anyone try to grapple with me in a serious fashion. Brother's are good for rough-housing but nothing serious. I should think if you can avoid the pin, despite being taken to the ground, you should be able to manuver and start some suawari waza and pin their butts with ease... granted you've trained enough in it. ;)

2 cents :D

Actually, it is quite hard to get up on your knees if you are on your back and your opponent is in the mount, and has a weight and/or strength advantage - unless you know how to reverse, leverage or fight your way back to the kneeling position.

fatebass21
01-03-2005, 12:22 PM
Get Off The Line Of Attack
:d

Joezer M.
01-03-2005, 11:00 PM
how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert?

You tap your opponent, causing him to instinctively let you go and stand up... I mean, sometimes you stop mid-technique when you hear sensei clapping and shouting "Yame!", right? And your uke murmurs "Thank God..."

Sorry... couldn't help it... Saw a similar scene in an anime... :sorry: :sorry:


Regards,
Joezer

rob_liberti
01-05-2005, 09:29 AM
I personally recommend BJJ to any women looking for MA to avoid rape, or any prison guards. As a matter of fact, I think it should be offered in grade schools. Those are the most realistic situation where people frequently need those skills. I’m male, over the age of 12, and I don’t work in a prison so I agree with George sensei that is it rather unlikely that I will need those skills in my life – unless I join a BJJ club.

I've heard a slogan so many times that "90% of all fights go to the ground, and if you count knock outs then it's 100%". Who the hell is actively taking stats on this?! I've been in a real fight in a bar at UConn where chairs were flying around and everyone was pushing and punching or swinging pool sticks or covering up and running for safety. Here's the thing. I didn't go to the ground and neither did a whole lot of people in that fight. (Some did and I helped them get there! But I got hit with a chair that was thrown across the room - so much for my zanshin!) Anyway, that was a real fight which falls into the scope of "all fights" so the stats are certainly less than 100%. And I'd trouble believing this was an isolated incident.

I think the counter point about how it is realistic that someone might decide to try to tackle you is also a valid point. In that case, someone trying to tackle me might get kicked in the face or if they are smart enough to dip a shoulder then they are probably going to get their balance taken with kaiten nage as that is exactly what that technique is for. I think Chiba sensei has the right idea about doing chokes from that technique. If you haven't seen this, please go find someone who has and get them to show you. (I need to review this. Anyone willing to write down something about this in the techniques section?)

I respect ground fighters. The ones I talked to about it explained that the rules for no dirty tricks are because once you have superior position it would be just torturing the other guy to start biting, gouging, and/or tearing flesh. (And some crazy people do allow this kind of thing - I won't train with them!) My problem with this is that because it is a hard and fast rule - people make sloppy entrances to their takedowns because you are not allowed to stick your thumb in their eyes at that point. Obviously, there are ways to avoid such things, but I think it's like taking ukemi. If you don't actively train to not be open you will probably be surprised when someone takes advantage of your opening. (Also, the UFC had a rule that you couldn’t kick people on the ground, and so people were just laying there trying to coax their opponent to come wrestle them. That was stupid and I’m glad they took that rule away in the Pride fights.)

Anyway, it is a totally different skill level in aikido to be able to deal with the kamikazi attacker. People willing and able to take a strike to avoid giving up position or balance are extremely dangerous. I think it is completely level inappropriate for the majority of the people practicing aikido. Maybe work on that around 4th dan +, and maybe not so directly. I do feel a 7th dan should be able to do it - but that's because otherwise what the heck does "mastery" mean.

I think the best way to cross train with these guys is that they have to protect themselves from such things (by simply turning their heads a bit, or dipping their shoulders, avoiding putting their ears into positions where you can rip them off on the way down to the ground, etc...). They should work on setting you up to get you to the ground, and the aikido person should work on not falling for being setup to be taken to the ground. I would work with anyone willing to play by those rules.

The other slogan I hear a lot is that “BJJ is aikido on the ground.” Not until a master of both says so period. Yes, there are common principles, fine, please leave it at that. (This is the same thing as when the Arnis people take “Arnis is the art within your art” slogan a bit too far.) The points mentioned about learning how to move on the ground to do aiki there is critically important – no doubt. However, in aikido, I find that how I hold my mind and how I hold my body so that I receive an attack properly (instantly making center to center connection) is not something I’ve ever experienced rolling around with the best JJers I could find (who completely demolish me on the ground - I might add). I’m not saying that JJ doesn’t work! It works well. All I can say is that my experience is that the JJ I’ve been exposed to is similar to a lower level of aikido that I used to do. Obviously, their might be JJers out there who can make instant center to center connection, but I’ve not experienced that “next level” ability. Because it is most often a competition or results oriented art, I’m not sure they even want to take things to that level. This is the problem with competition, at a certain level of competence, once you have something working well it’s not to common that someone will be willing to give up success for a long period of time to get to that next level – like we commonly do in aikido. So, anyway, this is way I say it would take a master of both arts to convince me that they are the same.

Rob

Chuck.Gordon
01-05-2005, 10:12 AM
I've heard a slogan so many times that "90% of all fights go to the ground, and if you count knock outs then it's 100%". Who the hell is actively taking stats on this?!

Heya Rob,

I pretty much agree with you. For most folks (in any reasonably civilized area who are not LEOs, soldiers, or otherwise actively engaged in any daily activity that brings them into contact with violence) doing budo for 'self-defense' on the off chance that they'll be able to Ninja Turtle their assailant is pretty silly.

I'll posit that 90% of self defense is being alert and not being in places where you're likely to be attacked in the first place.

Most trad. budo can and doteach you things about personal combat that will help you defend yourself, but there's very little in most trad. budo curriculae that is actually, directly applicable to CQC.

(I've studied trad. and non-trad. martial arts for 30+ years and have actively served and worked in both police and military situations, by the way.)

As for the 90% thing, it's my understanding that the figure actually came from a study done at a major US university (I think it was UCLA) in the 80s. The study was specifically dealing with police arrest and restraint situations, and the original statement was more like: 75 percent of all apprehensions wherein the perpetrator resists arrest go to ground ...

The conclusion got twisted, applied to non-LEO situations, repeated ad nauseum, until it became part of the martial urban mythology.

Chuck

Roy Dean
01-05-2005, 05:37 PM
Aikido on the Ground?

Rob,

Excellent post. I agree with most of your points, and would like to flesh out a few more:

In regards to fights going to the ground... Not all fights go to the ground, and many fights can be ended before ever entering that region. However, if someone is skilled and wants to take an untrained person to the ground, it is usually not difficult to do so. In a 1 on 1 interation, if they want it to go the ground, it does.

Also, if you've ever seen such high brow entertainment such as "Worlds Wildest Streetfights", then you may have observed a pattern when two individuals who are bent on beating each other up go for it. Wild swings, an adrenaline dump, and 2 people falling to the ground during the struggle. The fight goes to the ground without the participants intending it. The same pattern, fight after fight, emerges. A little groundfighting knowledge in such situations could go a long way, for both men and women.

In regards to kaiten nage as a defense for a double leg tackle... well, it's possible, but I've never seen it done, and if it were high percentage, then I'm sure MMA fighters would be adding it to the arsenal. Even the spinning backfist has been successfully implemented by fighters (for KO's!)... but kaiten nage as a replacement for the sprawl is something I do not forsee happening soon. But it could.

Quotes like this strike me as odd:

"people make sloppy entrances to their takedowns because you are not allowed to stick your thumb in their eyes at that point."

and

"avoiding putting their ears into positions where you can rip them off on the way down to the ground,"

Why? Because it all happens very quickly. And, the person attempting to take you down also has "the dirty stuff" at their disposal. They can throw a punch and based on a reaction of flinching from or blocking the strike, drop levels and shoot for a double. It doesn't have to be perfect if your reaction is large enough. Or they can fake a shot and throw an overhand right (this has also proven to have KO potential). Or whatever. It's simply distraction to enable his technique, and once your opponent has control of your center (hips), then trying to gauge his eyes or rip his ears off won't do you much good.

In fact, it's a poor choice, since all your attacker has to do is squint his eyes REALLY HARD and then slam you into a disorienting and inferior position. Then it's on, and your choice in the rules of engagement will have some serious consequences. Defending a takedown is a very dynamic situation, and relying on ripping ears or gauging eyes is not going to get you very far, especially if you haven't practiced ripping ears after a failed takedown defense at least a few hundred times with competent grapplers.

Another one:

"This is the problem with competition, at a certain level of competence, once you have something working well it's not to common that someone will be willing to give up success for a long period of time to get to that next level -- like we commonly do in aikido."

In fact, I believe the opposite it true. Unless you're willing to let one part of your game suffer (i.e. footlocks) so you can focus on another area (i.e. passing the guard), then your jiu-jitsu becomes "small" and stagnant. One trick ponies to not rise through the ranks. Times change and people adapt, your training partners get wise to your moves and develop the counters, your opponents in competition remember past interactions, and if you don't let one area lie fallow so another may develop, then you won't make it to that next belt or skill level.

Are the two arts the same? No, but I find remarkable similarities, and it is possible to feel center to center connection on the ground, if your partner has a "pressure" based game rather than a "movement" oriented game.

"BJJ is aikido on the ground" is a statement that is true enough, IMO. I'm far from a master, but I do have some grounding in both arts, being a shodan in Aikikai Aikido, and brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. They complement each other beautifully, and can enable practitioners to have seamless integration for martial techniques from the vertical plane to the horizontal.


Good training to you,

Roy Dean

L. Camejo
01-05-2005, 06:42 PM
Is it me, or is there an imbalance in an understanding of how one applies Aikido to serious and determined attack scenarios vis a vis BJJ in this thread? I mean we can see in a lot of ways (there are many examples) how BJJ works effectively in determined attack situations, since a major aspect of its training is for competition and we can review footage of bouts and even actual fights etc.

However I get the feeling that the same level of security and veracity in "what works" from Aikido's training methods a bit lacking in this thread. As I said it could be just me. But since modern Aikido may not have as many "battle stories" to draw reference from, it appears folks are doing a lot of "what if" guessing as far as what in Aikido will actually work in these scenarios, since there is not the same wealth of video information to show how Aikido can be effectively applied in a serious attack encounter (i.e. not the pretty shots of dojo darlings flying throough the air without resisting).

Imho one needs not get a Dan grade to be effective in applying one's Aikido in most scenarios, far less be a master of anything to apply it against a skilled grappler or fighter, one just needs to be a master of one's own game and not fall into that of the other person. All of the situations above where it has been indicated that Aikido may have difficulty is because the engagement has already gone outside the area or interval in the engagement where Aikido is most effective, or one may not be seeing the entirety of the situation and the possible options afforded by effective Aikido training - obviously it won't work if this is the case. This, contrary to the belief of many does not need to take a multitude of years to attain as well from Aikido, unless one expects to apply Aikido against a skilled attack and expect it to look like it does in the pretty cooperative dojo setting. This however is a bit delusional imho.

Aikido works against BJJ very well if you know what you are doing. But if you expect it to look like it would in the dojo, then even if you know what you are doing, your grasp on reality may be a bit lacking.

Just a few cents.
LC:ai::ki:

senshincenter
01-05-2005, 06:47 PM
Chuck,

In case this might be of interest…

Unless another study has been done, or unless you are referring to a different study, I think you might be talking about the study done by Mr. Greg Dossey, in 1988 (later updated in 1992). When I ran an advanced Arrest and Control course for Mr. Dossey’s ARCON instructors I was privileged by receiving a copy of the study. A university did not do the study. At the time the study was first compiled, Mr. Dossey was a sergeant at the LAPD and he was also the department’s Exercise Physiologist. That was in 1988. In 1992, the study was replicated for reasons of comparison and cross-validation by the Training Review Committee of the LAPD. The study dealt with arrest situations that required an officer to address resistant and/or aggressive subjects. The purpose of the study was to determine how to make law enforcement training more efficient by addressing those cases or those types of cases more officers see more often. From that study, an Arrest and Control training program was developed and that program has gone on to influence many agencies across the globe (as you may well know).

As to the 90% quote:

The study determined that the most common type of resistance/aggression that an officer faces in the field during arrests is the suspect pulling his arm away after the officer has made contact with the arm in order to commence cuffing. Four other categories gained large enough a percentage to be noted. As far as going to the ground, the study only says “62% of all altercations involving resistance and/or aggression ended with the officer and the subject on the ground with the officer applying a joint lock and handcuffing the subject.” The surrounding context implies that we are dealing with something akin to how Nikyo ends (for non-law enforcement agents) – not two folks grappling on the ground fighting between the guard and the mount, etc. As far as two folks going to the ground and fighting it out down there, the stat was only 40% of 10.5% (you all can do the math please) – a very small figure.

Personally, I do not know of another study and I think Mr. Dossey would have handed me any later relevant information if such a study had been done. However, I could be wrong and/or talking about something completely different.

In my opinion, that stat of 90% came from the Gracie’s tagline. I do not think it is actually supported by any kind of legitimate study – not the kind that Mr. Dossey did at least.

Thanks.

eyrie
01-05-2005, 11:35 PM
For an interesting constrast, take up jujitsu. I think you'll find the similarities and differences quite "interesting". FWIW, jujitsu has given me a better appreciation of aikido and why things are done the way they are in aikido. Conversely, aikido has given me a distinct advantage over jujitsu in more ways than one. Nonetheless, it comes down to what level you're at in your art and what level your attacker is in their art. No way would I take on my jujitsu sensei ;-). But his students....i.e. my jujitsu sempai.... are quite a different matter. :-)

JohnWertz
01-06-2005, 09:36 AM
"Brazillian Jujitsu" is founded on the original Kodokan Judo Newaza syllabus. This syllabus was developed to be used in conjunction with the full range of Jujitsu waza (hand /foot strikes, throws, joint locks, strangles) that were amalgamated to form Judo.

Any defense/offense system that specializes begins to omit training in situations that don't fall within the operational range of the specialty. If you want to learn to fight, Uke must attack with skill, using jabs, kicks, slaps and combinations there of. Any defense that presuposes a one event, overextended strike, kick or grab, and doesn't presupose a "plus one" opponent and an edged weapon is incomplete if your goal is to learn to fight a fighter.

The next time you are uke, try poking a finger into Nage's ribs as the technique is being done and you'll see how quickly ki is distrubed and ma is broken.

rob_liberti
01-06-2005, 11:33 AM
Roy, I think we are actually more on the same page mentally - it looks like I'm just not quite there in my ability to express what I'm thinking - sorry.

If you re-read my last post and consider the two people are 10 feet away, then kaiten nage and dirty tricks on the entrace (the set up) makes sense as a real possibility. If you are reading my last post about this and you have it in your head that the tackler is already 10 inches away then YES you are 100% correct - sprawl like there is no tomorrow.

As I was trying to say, it all depends on how the shoot is set up, and how much experience the defender of that shoot has with dealing with such set ups. I'm not saying that there are no good set-ups, but there are certainly bad ones and experienced defensive movements can make good starts end badly.

I have found that just changing my stance from say right leg forward to stepping out laterrally with my right leg and shifting my hips so that my right leg is now the back leg gives tacklers a problem. I know they can switch to something else - but I didn't say an unsolvable problem. The point is that we can and should experiment with these things - but in a fair way. I serious had someone get their head to my chest - I was still stable and I grabbed his entire ear. We weren't in combat and we like each other but it instantly degenerated into "if you rip my ear off I'm going to really hurt you" which might have happened but I still say people bleeding from the head are too kamakazi-ish for me to deal with appropriately at my level. We both let go, and stayed friends - but I don't want to play with him anymore - which is a shame.
I suppose in sumamry, I feel just as strongly about not allowing dirty tricks once you have superior/dominant position as I feel you should have to defend yourself from dirty tricks (even if you know your training partner won't use them) on your way towards getting superious position.

Some slogans are useful like "position before submission" and "attack the base" they have no negative components - please use them and spead them. However, other slogans like "BJJ is aikido on the ground" and "90% of all fights end up on the ground" are not entirely true, and really serve no purpose other than to get people to train at BJJ schools instead of aikido schools and that doesn't seem fair. We are not saying "Aikido is BJJ standing up" and "90% of all SD situations never go anywhere near the ground" or whatever.

I don't really think there is plot to take potential MA students from one art to another, but it seems like the reason people keep defending their favorite slogans is that they have attachment to them - despite knowing they are not entirely true.

Now, I did really like the movement versus pressure distinction in orientation. I think pressure and movement orientations are a good way to describe the kind of touch necessary to develpe past the typical aikido level of blend just enough to crank the person. (ju tai beginning followed by ko tai middle and ending).

I do agree that you have to change your focus while you progress in any art, but that wasn't what I was talking about as far as giving up what has been working entirely to get a new much more sophistocated approach. It's hard to describe. I know that BJJ players go through some of that initially, but I have not seen anyone continue that kind of development. I hope to meet someone who has - who is willing to show me without just knocking me unconscious out of boredom with my ground skills.

I love MA. I plan to do many more. Wrestling is fun, so is arnis. I love kung fu. I just don't want to hear that any of them are aikido on the ground, or with sticks, or with back spinning jump kicks.

Rob

jonreading
01-06-2005, 12:46 PM
BBJ is a solid martial arts...for its applications. Aikido is a solid martial art...for its applications. There is no comparison because each art is designed for different application.

Who is the ultimate predator? Man? Shark? Lion. What about man without a weapon? What about shark on land? What about a lion in snow? Nature demonstrates that even the best predator is not suited for all conditions.

Don't confuse the purpose of the BBJ with the purpose of aikido. I've seen good and bad of both, both arts have advantages and disadvantages. The outcome of a fight is dependent on many things, most of which have not been discussed here.

Here are some general rules of thumb I live by:
Don't fight a fighter
Don't box a boxer
Don't wrestle a wrestler
It seems stupid, but yet we are talking about wrestling a wrestler. Screw that. If I am confronted by any of the 3 opponents from above, I am going to make damn sure that I use aikido to fight them. If I can't make it work, then I will lose.

Aikido is a martial art that is just as good as any other martial art in the world. If you are involved in a fight and win, great; if not, that person(s) was more prepared for the fight than you. Does it matter what art they trained?

I'm a big Chicago Bears fan (Professional American Football). There's a story/legend of a conversation Mike Ditka had with an unamed sports writer after a game in the 80's. The Bears lost the game on a poor officiating call. The writer asked Ditka how he felt about the call, and Ditka replied that he felt the call was bad. The writer asked if the Bears intended to challenge the call, and Ditka replied "no." The writer then asked why, to which Ditka replied, "We lost. It doesn't matter how we lost - if we wanted to win, we would've beat them so bad a sh**ty call wouldn't have mattered."

paw
01-06-2005, 12:47 PM
I'm far from a master, but I do have some grounding in both arts, being a shodan in Aikikai Aikido, and brown belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Congrats on your Brown! When did that happen?


Regards,

Paul

Roy Dean
01-06-2005, 01:43 PM
Paul: Thank you! Mr. Harris promoted at the beginning of December, right after my birthday, which was a nice counterbalance to turning the big three oh. Pretty intense exam, as well. Mr. Harris reminded me why they call him "BOA", in way I've never felt before!

I think Larry is spot on with his post: You don't have to be a master or dan grade or at any particular "marker" in your training to achieve functionality. Play your game. Operate in your zone, and don't judge your response if it spills out differently than dojo training. All of these arts specialize in particular ranges, they need not be adversarial, and I feel they should be looked upon as complimentary, possibly even synergistic.

Rob: Indeed, we're on the same page, and it's certainly possible for an experienced grappler (which I consider Aikidoka to be) to stop a shot in the early phases. I can and have been frozen out of shooting in on people, esp. if they have a wrestling background, in a pure grappling match.

Years ago, I was one of the first to say "BJJ is Aikido on the ground," and still believe it to be more true than not. My opinion, and perhaps that's a reflection of my interpretation of the art. Several people have commented that my groundwork is different, more "aiki" for lack of a better term. It's a very personalized art, and individual traits and tendencies are often observably manifested in movement.

My BJJ instructor, Roy Harris, goes out to the East Coast several times a year for seminars. One of his grappling instructors, Chris Drechsler-Martell, is located in Middletown, CT. I don't know if that's in your vicinity, but it would be worth checking out a seminar next time he's over there. I guarantee you'll feel center to center contact, in a very controlled and instructive manner.

Excellent additions to the discussion, everyone.

Best,

Roy

rob_liberti
01-06-2005, 11:47 PM
I met sifu Chris a few times. We both work out with Don Souci (who has amazing ground skills) at friendship seminars. He actually asked me to teach him aikido when I get into his area. He's a really nice guy.

I do not mean to disrespect you or to beat a dead horse. Please just consider that as a brown belt in BJJ you must have put in a long time of hard work. Imagine if someone in BJJ with 10 fewer years in was talking about what BJJ is standing up and your experience didn't agree with that statement. That's how I feel about someone with a shodan in aikido talking about what aikido is on the ground.

Please visit sifu Chris someday and we'll get together. I'll show you what I mean about aikido at a different level and you can maybe help me with escaping the mount when the guy on top doesn't go for the choke - which I have no idea how to deal with!

I have tried many times to talk about the set up to the shoot and so many people could never get past the initial assumption that the've already slapped my elbows upward and drove their shoulder into my hips and THEN I'm supposed to do aikido while they are slamming my head on the floor - as if I suffer from narcolepsy. So, I find you to be a rare BJJer. I'd love to hear from you what you think the best things are to work on to defend the common shoot set ups.

Rob

Chris Birke
01-07-2005, 12:54 AM
Ooh, I'm gonna guess the sprawl! I don't have a brownbelt though, so it probably will be something else.

rob_liberti
01-07-2005, 07:35 AM
Maybe it's a terminology barrier. Say the BJJ attacker is 10 feet away, and I'm just standing there. I should not just sprawl in hopes that when he sees that he'll think - well I had better not even try to tackle that guy, look how far back his hips are!

I've seen combinations like low kick (to hopefully get karate people raised up a bit on their back leg) followed by face punch (all while charging in - to get their hands up too) and then dip and shoot. That's what I mean by the set up. Should I say "pre-set-up"?

There must be some other common ones, and there must be some common things/movements to the side, stance changes, entering an turning, whatever - that gives those set ups troubles.

Rob

Roy Dean
01-07-2005, 04:20 PM
Rob,

You could very well be right. I might not have the experience to adequately compare arts. I feel that I DO have a fair grasp of the techniques of Aikikai Aikido for a few reasons: I've trained under excellent teachers, did my time as an uchideshi, and have a strong aiki-jujutsu background, where I've trained techniques removed from the Aikido syllabus, furthering my perspective on where Aikido came from, what it is, and what it is not.

But then again, I may not have a leg to stand on, considering that it's impossible for me to gauge the depths of my own ignorance! I admit that I've been on the mat only a handful of times since receiving my shodan in 99, as I let that field lie fallow so that I could further my study of BJJ. Skills develop in the areas you train, period. Aikido is not my area of expertise, especially in comparison to someone who's focused their training for 15+ years. I will bow out with that, and would welcome an opportunity for you to share techniques with me.

As for the shoot: All techniques have a beginning, middle and end phase. The middle and end phase for the shoot involve sprawling. Stopping the shot at the beginning stage involves changing levels when your partner changes levels (so he can't get under your hips), and blocking their entry into your space by placing your hand or hands on their shoulder or head and stopping their forward motion. If you can't stop their motion, then with arm(s) still outstreched and connecting with their shoulders or head, shuffle backwards to maintain the same relative distance as they come forward. Maurice Smith did this beautifully with Mark Coleman in an early UFC, and Chuck Liddell is also very crafty in maintaining distance.

Stepping off the line and striking is also a popular tactic. When the shooter strikes, though, it can make things more difficult. The Gracie set-up of exploratory strikes to check distance, then crashing into the clinch is a tried and true method. It can be stopped by sprawling and counterstriking (Mirco Crocop represents this strategy well). As far as pre-setups go, I'm at a loss, other than initiate an attack or movement. Trying to stop a shoot after your opponent has had time to set everything up (distance, rhythm, etc) to his liking puts you at an immediate disadvantage.

Randy Couture will be our guest at the Harris International Instructors Conference later this year. I'll ask him about stopping shots in various phases, and see what he says.

The best way to find the answer is to join a wrestling club or participate with a school team. A high level aikidoist with a wrestler's sprawl and instincts would be quite a formidable opponent. If they can't take you down, then they have to play your game...

Roy

xuzen
01-07-2005, 09:56 PM
Hi Rob and Roy....

Mighthy please if you could provide some terminology explaination. Thanks in advance.

What does shoot, sprawl, mount mean?

Boon.

thomas_dixon
01-08-2005, 12:08 AM
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?

Exactly what other people said. Take some BJJ..they'll show you how to escape from the forward mount, mount, rear mount, etc. and reverse locks in your favor. But your best bet is to not get mounted.

thomas_dixon
01-08-2005, 12:15 AM
Hi Rob and Roy....

Mighthy please if you could provide some terminology explaination. Thanks in advance.

What does shoot, sprawl, mount mean?

Boon.

Mount = Mount Position (theres a few, but i'll assume Forward Mount) or :

http://ju-jutsu.helmstedter-sportverein.de/galerie/08/03.jpg

As for shooting and sprawling, I'll assume, thats the takedown (i.e. sweep, tackle), and srpawling is the scuffling, or..a more broad term...grappling.

Not sure...never heard those terms (shoot, sprawl) related to BJJ before..

rob_liberti
01-08-2005, 12:25 PM
I'll do my best to field this - but I have no BJJ credentials - so please feel free to jump in and fix anything... (That is a good picture up there of exactly what I meant by "the mount." I didn't know it is specifically called "the forward mount." I think the main point is that the guy sitting on top is not between the legs of the guy in the bottom - where they call that "the guard".)

I agree with Thomas Dixon about the shoot being a term to basically mean tackle. I cannot give you an example of all of them, but here is a really basic one: Stand face to face with your favorite training partner (on a mat) and both of you leave your legs shoulder width apart with neither foot back. Now have your friend extend both arms. You step in, slap his arms up, drive your shoulder into the hips region, wrap your arms around the back of both legs, and you drive your friend up, back and over onto the mat. That's my best explanation of a basic double leg take down (which is a form of "shooting").

Here is my interpretation of what is meant by SPRAWL: The best defence from the point they have gotten their shoulder just about to hit your hips is for you to open your legs up wide and get your hips rotated back (so you kind of end up leaning your upper half forward). That is called sprawling (again a very basic explanation).

Roy, I think you are a very good guy and I hope I get to meet you and work out with you someday soon! I have really enjoyed this discussion.

I'm very interested in working with more sophisticated attacks like combinations and setting up a shoot, so if anyone gets insight, especially from an aikido perspective please feel free to drop me a line!

Rob

thomas_dixon
01-08-2005, 03:25 PM
I'll do my best to field this - but I have no BJJ credentials - so please feel free to jump in and fix anything... (That is a good picture up there of exactly what I meant by "the mount." I didn't know it is specifically called "the forward mount." I think the main point is that the guy sitting on top is not between the legs of the guy in the bottom - where they call that "the guard".)

I agree with Thomas Dixon about the shoot being a term to basically mean tackle. I cannot give you an example of all of them, but here is a really basic one: Stand face to face with your favorite training partner (on a mat) and both of you leave your legs shoulder width apart with neither foot back. Now have your friend extend both arms. You step in, slap his arms up, drive your shoulder into the hips region, wrap your arms around the back of both legs, and you drive your friend up, back and over onto the mat. That's my best explanation of a basic double leg take down (which is a form of "shooting").

Here is my interpretation of what is meant by SPRAWL: The best defence from the point they have gotten their shoulder just about to hit your hips is for you to open your legs up wide and get your hips rotated back (so you kind of end up leaning your upper half forward). That is called sprawling (again a very basic explanation).

Roy, I think you are a very good guy and I hope I get to meet you and work out with you someday soon! I have really enjoyed this discussion.

I'm very interested in working with more sophisticated attacks like combinations and setting up a shoot, so if anyone gets insight, especially from an aikido perspective please feel free to drop me a line!

Rob

I listed the foreward mount because theres a rear mount, and rear gaurd as well...plus side mounts, etc. That I know of :)

Chuck.Gordon
01-11-2005, 02:28 AM
Chuck,
about the study done by Mr. Greg Dossey, in 1988 (later updated in 1992). When I ran an advanced Arrest and

That's the one! Thanks.

Chuck
(who has a mind like a steel sieve)

Jorx
01-11-2005, 03:40 AM
Well whoever said "knee him in the face" while attempting a takedown has not obviosly nevere ever wretled a good wrestler.

About biting and pinching - have you ever thought about what would happen if they started biting or pinching from the top? Or eyepoking? Of course one does not expect that you pinch them from the bottom because it's a training situation. But in self-defence when you are mounted and someone is bashing your face up and adrenaline is flowing I'm 99% sure that your pinching and biting will fail.

If you are concerned with BJJ, take BJJ yes. It would be totally unrational to start figuring out some "aikido-counters" half of which would never-ever work and the other half you would train with people who do not know how to do the moves properly you would want to counter. So you'd be still in trouble with real BJJ.

A while ago Jason DeLucia posted some ancient bookscans of Aikido master showing full guard, armbar (a quite crappy one btw) etc to prove that Aikido has groundfighting too. But that is not the point. Groundfighting has evolved major leaps from the time it was practiced maybe by some Aikido masters as well. So my point remains, if you are concerned with BJJ - learn it. It's fun too. If you are not too troubled and have fun doing Aikido - then devote yourself to Aikido.

I usually teach 20 minutes of groundfighting almost every Aikido class. Simple escapes (with and without punches) and sweeps and some locks maybe. Also maintaining control after doing a throw. I think it is beneficial and necessary to have at least SOME groundfighting experience from SD perspective.

Also I have had experience in Aikido seminars with dorks who would try to drag me down (totally cluelessly) after for example iriminage and claim that "i did the technique wrong". Now I'd be glad to go and put knee on stomach on them and do an armbar.

Okay that sounded a bit arrogant I guess... I think there's nothing wrong in rationally pointing out and helping out someone with the technique but I really hated it when a guy dragged me forcefully on top of him in training situation and then started claiming and teaching how I did wrong and he could throw me (yes on top of him) at the same time being totally clueless about throwing and groundfighting.

rob_liberti
01-11-2005, 08:02 AM
I don't think I'd drag you on top of me either unless it was a multiple attack situation and I knew there were 2 other guys running in to hit you in the next second or two. I agree that it is stupid to train that competitively in normal practice - but I would say that if you are getting dragged down in iriminage you might want to put a little more work into that technique... My guess is that you are trying to do the clothesline thing at the end and they are grabbing your arm. Id's say, you need to fix your alignment between the point where you initially bring them down and the point where you bring them back up. At that moment (before they bounce back up), I find it helps for me to pivot so that my feet (and hips!) are pointed the same direction uke's feet (and hips) are going. If my left hand is behind their head, then at the moment (after I pivot to fix alignment) my right foot is forward and my right arm is forward (on their upper arm). I basically imagine that I'm holding a sword to their neck with my right arm. I step back with my right foot (on that fixed alignment) and leave my right arm expanding outward and forward as my left hand gathers their head a bit forward and up towards my right shoulder. Try that and see if they are still able to pull you down... It's been working for me...

Rob

Jorx
01-11-2005, 03:37 PM
Thanks for caring but that is not a problem for quite some time now:)

They could do this only when they changed the pace. Which is a totally pointless thing to do in seminar in cooperative practice. Which also pissed me off. Man... I so hate when some 1.-3. kyu students start teaching you at seminars and changing paces and talking about "REAL situations" because I do not have a hakama on and wearing a whitebelt and because I like to practice rather slow and softly during seminars. It's meant to be a learning-cooperative-thing for god's sake. And I came to learn from that guy who is giving the seminar therefore I want to concentrate on his approach for this few hours.

And now I'm totally aware that I got oh-so-many options there (iriminage). I could control their head with the forearm and I could move around and drag behind and I can keep a better angle so they are not able to drag and I could step in more for hipthrow or ashibarai and I could and blah blah I'm better now:) (a bit)

And of course I could go down with them and put some pressure with the knee on them or make an armbar and they even wouldn't know what happened to them.

JasonFDeLucia
01-30-2005, 05:37 PM
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?

the key is to quantify every thing standing into the ground game .when passing guard primarily treat the legs with ikyo ,when negotiating any mount address your opponent's hands ikyo to nikyo to sankyo to control your escape .theres more to it but that's a good start.

Jorx
02-09-2005, 03:27 PM
I do not se these two as comparable. I think it is an overgeneralisation and wishful thinking.

When guardpassin, most passes do not address only one leg only AND when they do it's very far from arm manipultion seen in ikkyo. Also the purpose is totally different - in ikkyo one tries to manipulate ukes body through the limb. In guardpassing one tries to pass the guard:)

When being on bottom of mount ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc are completely unusable because you are only able to use your hands for these kind of techniques. And as everyone knows in Aikido we always try to do a technique with our whole body. Which in case of being mounted is pinned between oneself and the opponent.

I have been able to use Aikido wristlocks when breaking posture from guard. But no way can it be considered "doing Aikido" or doing nikkyo, sankyo etc... It's just cranking on wrist a bit similarily as in Aikido...

Kevin Leavitt
02-09-2005, 03:49 PM
I see in principle how passing the guard and acheiving the mount involves principles of ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo...but I too have found it difficult this close to really call them what I consider aikido technique. I have been able to use sankyo some, but you hips areso immobile this close in that it is hard to move and turn your center to achieve the techniques. I find this is why using other fulcrum points as is typically taught in BJJ is useful to acheiving the desired affect since the hips cannot do it for you.

wendyrowe
02-09-2005, 04:27 PM
This is a clip of video from a class where Jason DeLucia Sensei was demonstrating how to use aiki technique to escape from guard. Note the erect seiza posture as he pulls free, then the ikkyo to the leg to clear the guard.

http://venus.secureguards.com/~aikidog-/aikicenter/modules.php?name=AikiClips&op=show&pid=91

(Scroll down that page past the forum entries to view the clip.)

Chris Birke
02-09-2005, 07:43 PM
I think this may be a poor escape to learn for "fighting with BJJ people."

Standing all the way up in the guard like that is very dangerous. The instant you stand up and buck your hips you are easily swept. (They grab your ankles and pull while pushing with their legs. It works very easily, and transitions them into mount on you.)

To correctly emply this sort of pass against someone with any amount of expirence requires very good center (base) and the ability to counter that sweep by grabbing their gi (or head). Once you have acheived good base you can begin to address the closed guard.

In fact, at one point in the video (about 1:40) one of the students almost accidentially sweeps the other with this technique, pehaps without even knowing of it. The optimal time for the sweep was a few seconds earlier; you can see the standing student take a few steps forward to recover his balance after moving his center too far back.

Sticking your arms in deprives you of the counter to the sweep.

I think the correct way to pass the guard here is to apply judicious "atemi" the groin until their legs open, then pass.

Aristeia
02-10-2005, 12:52 AM
I agree with Chris on the vulnerability of this guard pass. It did however make me finally get off my backside (well actually in this case stay on it) and get realplayer so I could check out some of the aikidog clips, which I've been meaning to do.
Interesting, it was better than I expected. However the grappling, particularly the groundfighting, doesn't look particularly "Aikido" as opposed to BJJ. And where it does look different it looks a little vulnerable. for example the upright seiza you mentioned is a basic base to get postiion in someones guard. Delucia had his hands on ukes hips which is all good, but the difference from the standard in guard posture I'm used to seeing is he didn't have the other hand on the chest - which stops uke sitting up to strike/choke/lock.
I'm not saying this lack of "aikidoisation" is a bad thing. I've asked before why people think it's necessary to get a specifically aikido solution to groundfighting when there's a perfectly good solution that follows aiki principals all ready out there in BJJ. I think Jason maybe goes to too much trouble to try and explain BJJ type movements in aikido language and that may be one of the reasons some people find his posts confusing.
On video though he is much more clear and has peaked my interest enough to download a bunch of his stuff from the site. Hell anyone who's prepared to stand in front of a room full of large strapping policemen and say "who wants to wrestle" has something to offer.

Mat Hill
02-10-2005, 02:31 AM
I agreed pretty much with everything Jorgen said until this post....
When guardpassin, most passes do not address only one leg only AND when they do it's very far from arm manipultion seen in ikkyo.Ikkyou is not just a technique, it is a principle to get you to the outside of the arm, the outside being beyond the normal range of movement for the arm (ie an extended elnbow or a position where control of the lebow is possible. Now of course the leg bends differently, and trying to pass guard it's going to be a different movement, but the principle of being on the outside of only one limb instead of two... and to me the general principle of controlling the knee (if you're going straight into mount or a GnP) holds in the same way as controlling the elbow. Soooo... Also the purpose is totally different - in ikkyo one tries to manipulate ukes body through the limb. In guardpassing one tries to pass the guard:) of course you can say that the purpose of guardpassing is to pass the guard, but you pass the guard by let's see... manipulating uke's body through the limb...! ;)

It's a bit of a niggling nitpick, because yeah, I can see what you're saying. Personally I don't think aiki in general has answers for groundfighting. Why? Well Ueshiba didn't practise it AFAIK. The historical precedents for aiki (an art designed for samurai, to allow them to draw and use their swords, or to disarm someone who was armed when you weren't especially from seiza) did not require it.

My nitpick comes from aiki in general being taught as a series of techs rather than as groups of principles. If you follow aiki principles on to the ground, you may arrive at something like BJJ. (And no, I'm not saying this has happened or is likely to happen or is desirable or anything: but sticking to your opponent, blending/merging, dropping your weight through your centre, manipulating the body through the extremities, relaxing, going with your opponent's tech until you can take control... all very general but could be JJ groundwork or aiki... no?!)

Just because your sensei trains/teaches groundwork, doesn't mean it's aiki. It means he's trained in something else! Of course, neither does that mean aiki principles can't be incorporated into groundwork, but in answer to the general question 'Does aiki have answers to groundwork?' it is somewhat facetious to say 'My teacher teaches groundwork and he's an aiki teacher therefore aiki has groundwork' when generally IT DOES NOT!

When being on bottom of mount ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo etc are completely unusable because you are only able to use your hands for these kind of techniques. And as everyone knows in Aikido we always try to do a technique with our whole body. Which in case of being mounted is pinned between oneself and the opponent.

I have been able to use Aikido wristlocks when breaking posture from guard. But no way can it be considered "doing Aikido" or doing nikkyo, sankyo etc... It's just cranking on wrist a bit similarily as in Aikido...Don't agree with this either. Working your guard is all about working your hips or working into a position whereby you can do so. Shrimping, bridging, a basic armbar from guard... try doing those without using your hips...! :p

I have used sankyou from guard successfully, by wriggling my ass into a position where i could put my hips into it. He tapped in less than a second, with his body structure broken backwards just like in a vertical sankyou, in fact better, because from mount he couldn't move his hips to get out of the way. Worked it a couple more times till they got wise to it, but it's perfectly possible (never rolled with a good BJJer but my teacher who's a pro-fighter has fought many... not saying it would or would work against them, but I'd be more than happy to try it! It was in a shooto class, half of which is groundwork taken from BJJ, JJJ and Graeco-Roman).

Plus, and this one's a very wee nitpick, but if the action is an aiki-like movement getting an aiki like wrist position, which is not found in many other martial arts, and you can do it because you've trained in aiki, does that mean that because you don't use your hips you are not doing aiki?! I don't think so.

Mat Hill
02-10-2005, 02:47 AM
Aikido on the Ground?
In regards to kaiten nage as a defense for a double leg tackle... well, it's possible, but I've never seen it done, and if it were high percentage, then I'm sure MMA fighters would be adding it to the arsenal. Even the spinning backfist has been successfully implemented by fighters (for KO's!)... but kaiten nage as a replacement for the sprawl is something I do not forsee happening soon. But it could. I've used it to a limited degree of success. If you jam up into your opponent's body it becomes a kind of straight-through kaiten-nage (ie no extravagant 'kaiten'). It also becomes like the standard swimming excerise for the clinch in wrestling. You have to get in deep. The main problem with it is that they're not off balance unless you've lead their shoot in further than they wanted (which is pretty much suicide!) or they're not good at shooting. Give it a go, tell us what you think.

Oh and BTW, I hope it's needless to say, when I do this I'm not aiming to remain standing, but to take the back of their head and harmonize their face with the mat, followed by taking their rear, or rolling over the top for an armbar. If you get in really deep you can sweep their lead leg with your front leg too, and if you drop it tight, you might manage to drop their face on your knee... er, sorry, harmonize your knee with their nose. :eek: evileyes :)

It's much lower percentage than the sprawl.

BTW 2, I wouldn't say that because MMAers don't use it it's not viable. How long did the spinning backfist take to come into MMA? And since that's been used for a long time in Muay Thai which has always had a crossover into MMA, and taekwondo which is a starting block for a lot of US martial artists, why did it take so long? Plus, how often do aikidoists practice their aiki in an MMA format, and how often do MMAers think, 'Ah, I just must take aiki to pick up their famous shoot defences!'... ? :D Not so common a cross over I don't think... :rolleyes:

samurai_kenshin
02-13-2005, 01:12 AM
Well since I'm not an aikido expert I'd probably get my butt kicked.

If I went against someone who has the same relative skill level in jujutsu as I have in aikido...hmm, I still have no idea :D And to be truthfull, that doesn't bother me in the least.

Bronson
pretty much the same here, but if you could try to create a katate dori with your legs...

MitchMZ
02-13-2005, 01:50 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the other day...doing a successful but less than perfect kotegaeshi on uke actually leaves you open for an arm bar when uke is on their back. I think thats why its vital we bend our knees and not hunch over...although I still hunch over :crazy: If the arm is in the center and the knees are bent then the arm would probably not be that vulnerable. Uke's legs would then be out of his sphere. Then there is a "nikkyo type pin" for uke's leg...Ouch!

L. Camejo
02-13-2005, 03:32 PM
Yeah, I was thinking the other day...doing a successful but less than perfect kotegaeshi on uke actually leaves you open for an arm bar when uke is on their back. I think thats why its vital we bend our knees and not hunch over...although I still hunch over :crazy: If the arm is in the center and the knees are bent then the arm would probably not be that vulnerable. Uke's legs would then be out of his sphere. Then there is a "nikkyo type pin" for uke's leg...Ouch!

Another option here is to use the bounce reflex to turn Uke over and pin him on his face the instant after his back hits the ground. This pretty much puts his legs out of the equation and you in full control of him from behind his head and above.

My avatar shows a version of this technique.

LC:ai::ki:

flipstil
02-13-2005, 07:52 PM
Ahh the question has been razed again! Here is my thoughts for what they are worth.
BJJ is Awsome, Aki-jitsu is Awesome, Aikido is Awesome,,, see where I'm going? I personally feel that you have to really be well versed in the "basics" of each in order to incorporate the techniques and make them effective.
Thats why they say martial ART, Art is interpretive and based on individual knowledge.
What I am saying is simply this. Know thy enemy. That means KNOW what he knows...

remember Limited knowledge makes for easy decisions- even wrong decisions :)

MitchMZ
02-13-2005, 08:07 PM
Yeah I was thinking about that also. A Kotegaeshi done with lots of power that flips uke is not very vulnerable to an arm bar. Mine are, however...because my kotegaeshi is far from being good. The sloppy arm bar also leads to the leg lock...all good reasons to keep training!

Dazzler
02-15-2005, 10:09 AM
Dont overlook the fact that if you've used kotagaeshi to put uke on his back...HE is extremely vulnerable to an arm bar himself.

Add a stamp to the face first, step over and sit straight back into the arm bar and you start to get some nice'n'nasty technique.

But don't get overly fixated on the excellent finishing hold. It is fine for competition but not recommended for any environment where there are no guarantees that you have only a single assailant.

At the same time ...a kotagaeshi that is loose enough to allow uke to flip is great for aiki demonstrations. But has anyone seen one in UFC?

I'm sure its fine in context but for a more realistic view a practical kotagaeshi would have to take uke straight to the floor with a fair degree of wrist crush to make it effective.

IMHO of course.

Cheers

D

mathewjgano
02-22-2005, 09:46 PM
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?

Fair question...what would a well-trained jujitsu person do? There's a certain amount of truth to the idea that once you're beaten, you're beaten. If you have no opening to enter through, you have no opening to enter through. I had one person try to pull me down by the legs, but he did it wrong and I nearly landed with all my weight on his chest, knee first. It's all about sensitivity and being aware. The differences in nomenclature reflect differences in emphasis, but all eventually lead to the same place: a greater awareness of the self and surroundings.

jester
03-04-2005, 02:24 PM
Royce Gracie was asked at a seminar "How do you get out of a choke?".
He used the analogy of getting punched in the face. "Once your hit it's to late".

The key is not to get in the choke in the first place.

If your are in a full mount by a jui-jitsu expert, it's to late. I don't think anyone on this thread, (or their instructor) can escape it using only aikido techniques.

wendyrowe
03-05-2005, 07:50 AM
Royce Gracie was asked at a seminar "How do you get out of a choke?".
He used the analogy of getting punched in the face. "Once your hit it's to late".

The key is not to get in the choke in the first place.

If your are in a full mount by a jui-jitsu expert, it's to late. I don't think anyone on this thread, (or their instructor) can escape it using only aikido techniques.

Yes, we train to keep out of the way of chokes and to get out before the choke's on if we couldn't keep out. But don't give up just because he's got his arms on your neck; you still have a chance to get out during the moment before he sinks it in.

Charlie
03-05-2005, 11:08 AM
...But don't give up just because he's got his arms on your neck; you still have a chance to get out during the moment before he sinks it in.

It reminds me of a story told involving a skilled samurai battling with a commoner. The samurai had the other locked up using highly skilled techniques. Just about the time the commoner was about to be choked out...he realized that his hand lay about the samurai's testes. He was able to escape. just imagine if he had submitted. We would not have a lovely anecdote to talk about.

All and all, for me, AIKI, doesn't mean to restrict myself to a predefined set of techniques (these are aiki and these are not). But to truely apply what is necessary and appropiate for that moment. It is all AIKI if applied in this manner.

Cheers,

mathewjgano
03-06-2005, 09:03 PM
Royce Gracie was asked at a seminar "How do you get out of a choke?".
He used the analogy of getting punched in the face. "Once your hit it's to late".

The key is not to get in the choke in the first place.

If your are in a full mount by a jui-jitsu expert, it's to late. I don't think anyone on this thread, (or their instructor) can escape it using only aikido techniques.

I agree with Royce's remarks (a fairly safe stance, lol). Also, i wanted to comment on the idea of not being able to escape using "only aikido technique." Technically speaking, aikido is a wholistic approach to conflict. The ideal is a non-combative, win-win situation, but this is our goal, not always our reality. If an aikidoka has absolutely no other option than to do something "dirty" in a fight, for example to save his own life or that of another innocent person, then he/she must do what it takes to make the greater good prevail, even if that means poking someone's eye out or whatever you can think of. Aikido is derived from aikijujutsu, a form of budo that dealt with life and deat and all points in between. In practice, aikido should have the same awarenesses plus a very developed philosophy toward win-win situations. That's all it is in my opinion. That in mind, you're either in a position to be able to do something or you're not. How aware of that situation anyone is depends on their daily practice/frame-of-mind.

jester
03-07-2005, 09:13 AM
"Technically speaking, aikido is a wholistic approach to conflict. The ideal is a non-combative, win-win situation, but this is our goal, not always our reality. If an aikidoka has absolutely no other option than to do something "dirty" in a fight, for example to save his own life or that of another innocent person, then he/she must do what it takes to make the greater good prevail, even if that means poking someone's eye out or whatever you can think of.

The old saying goes "you fight like you train". If you never train in "Dirty" techniques, eye poking, testes grabbing etc. the odds of you pulling it off in a crisis is very slim. In my opinion, if you don't cross train and you find yourself in an unfamiliar situation, you will lose.

mathewjgano
03-07-2005, 11:38 PM
The old saying goes "you fight like you train". If you never train in "Dirty" techniques, eye poking, testes grabbing etc. the odds of you pulling it off in a crisis is very slim. In my opinion, if you don't cross train and you find yourself in an unfamiliar situation, you will lose.

I agree with the essence of your post. I don't think it's necessary to train in every variety of budo in order to "fill the holes" in one's training. I think it can be very usefull though.
For me budo all comes down to two basic things to study: mind and body. I train to be aware of my whole body and mind as well as that of those around me. This requires me to think of situations such as eye-gouges, or whatever you can think of really. I have trained in other martial arts and found the schools at which I trained somewhat lacking compared to my own Aikidojo. This of course doesn't mean those arts were lacking, simply that either I missed something or those particular schools were lacking...per my limited perception of course. So in other words, if someone feels they need to cross-train they absolutely should. As it is now I feel I've found a pretty comprehensive approach, but of course that could change...I've been training for less than 8 years, a blink of an eye, really.
That said, I would argue it is not so much about what art you train in as much as how well you train which is heavily based on how well your teachers train(ed). I'll get a bit philosophical here and argue there are no styles of budo, only styles of teaching it, and from this comes the many many names we see in martial arts today.
Take care.

Kevin Leavitt
03-08-2005, 03:59 PM
"fight like you train" is an interesting paradox. I would agree to an extent, but if you "train like you fight" you will develop some pretty bad affects and habits. It is important to train slowly and methodically at times, i'd say most of the time in order to learn prinicples and proper balance, posture, and movement. That said, it is important to train hard in order to develop the warrior spirit, physical and mental toughness necessary to fight...if that is your goal.

Right now I am nursing a bad case of "cauliflower ear" from training hard so wondering if it is worth it...thinking time over....yes it is!!!! having too much fun training.

jensen189
06-20-2005, 02:12 PM
I have a few things to say.

to directly help the writer of this thread:

- basically make small bridges when he is winding up for a punch. do not reach for the arm, it just will mess you up, and set you up to get submitted. You just bounce your hips up to throw his weight in the direction of your head. This will cut all of his punching power, and make him rebalance. after you do this you can grab his arm if he posts it on the ground and you will be able to hook the foot on the same side and simply bridge to the side and get to his guard. then just work to stand up and get back to where you are strong.

I think crosstraining would be a smart thing for all martial artists.
- understand when i say this. you need to have a super strong base before you can built up, correct? So make whatever system you like more your base, and just learn enough of the other to escape "get by" This will make you a complete fighter

glennage
06-27-2005, 11:42 AM
when someone has you in the mount theres not much you can do because their just gonna pound you. the best thing to do is try and work a choke and keep them close to you to avoid the strikes. i agree with whoever said take jiu jitsu, because there are ways of working submissions from this position if you know what you are doing. it wouldn't hurt to check out some Gracie BJJ videos as an aside if you don't wanna take up the art properly, the ones i've seen are great and very detailed.

siwilson
06-27-2005, 03:23 PM
Aikido v Jujutsu?

Aikido is Jujutsu, but Jujutsu is not Aikido!

Kevin Leavitt
06-27-2005, 03:49 PM
IMHO, trying to choke someone while your mounted is not a good option. You need to escape. It is pretty hard to submit someone while they control your hips/center and the fight.

also, aikido contains elements of jujutsu since it was derived from it, but the fact that it is a DO art now, I would argue that Aikido is not jujutsu, and jujutsu is not aikido, they are two separate arts. If it were the case that aikido was jujutsu, then I wouldn't get mopped up by jujutsu guys all day long while learning jujutsu!

Aristeia
06-27-2005, 05:50 PM
I agree with Kevin. I"ve never seen a reliable sub you can work from under the mount. Your only option is to look to escape the position. Which is actually pretty easy on someone with little or no ground training, alot harder against an experienced BJJer. But if you're fighting an experienced BJJer you're in alot of trouble where ever you end up.
Glen maybe you're confusing mount with guard?

aikigirl10
07-04-2005, 06:38 PM
dont let him touch you, tenkan out of it , just keep moving basically

Kevin Leavitt
07-05-2005, 06:03 AM
Paige,

I would agree that the ultimate solution is to do that. I try to do it everytime I can. The problem is unless you can "out run" your opponent, or if you stand and fight, as in practice, that distance is taken away either by you or your opponent. Do it right with aikido principles and it works well. However the speed of a real fight does not allow for perfect technique and we end up on the ground more often than not. It is good to know what to do from there until you can regain control.

Aikido is a wonderful art, but as practiced by most, does not answer all questions of fighting with irmi and tenkan. Nor should it, as it is a DO art meant to convey principles of dynamic movement.

Be careful not to confuse aikido with real fighting!

aikigirl10
07-05-2005, 10:55 AM
Kevin,

I didnt mean u should run, what i meant was, keep moving away from his line of attack , and put him in yours. We practice doing things like this in shaolin , it is very effective in sparring, as for real life , theres only one way to find out.

Kevin Leavitt
07-05-2005, 11:50 AM
Paige,

I understand what you meant, and I agree. My point is this. You don't always have that luxury, especially at full speed.

There are two ways to find out. 1. a real fight. 2. replicating conditions as close as possible to a real fight.

Real fights can take many forms. from a testertone fight in a bar, to a real fight in which someone intends to inflict serious harm.

You can practice at full speed in a dojo within parameters. I personally have found more often than not that irmi tenkan or moving off the line does not always work, sometimes you mess up your timing and uke is able to "roll over you" and take your balance.

I don't disagree with you, I just caution against taking a cavalier stance of "just simply move off the line". It is not always an option.

I believe if your focus is outside of the "DO", and you want to prepare for all sides of empty hand fighting, then you need to address the full spectrum of fighting from stand up, closing the distance, takedowns, and ground fighting.

I have found, for myself as well, that it is easy to establish a paradigm within our own art of what works and doesn't work. It is a false sense of security. When we train only with those in our art it is easy to be lured into the perspective that "moving off the line" works everytime. Just need to be congnizant of the this when you train.

I recommend going to some local grappling schools in your area and mixing it up with them for an eye opener in moving off the line.

Again, it is correct, but my point is...does not always work for you!

aikigirl10
07-05-2005, 12:57 PM
I realize that moving off the line does not work in all scenarios. But for the scenario that Sonny is describing, takedowns , i'm quite confident it would work. Grabbing the legs and throwing someone down requires prolonged contact, and if you continue to move off the line , he wont be able to touch you long enough to throw you down. And again im not just saying move off the line , im saying , move off the line , put your opponent in your line of attack and then attack your oppenent w/something other than a takedown.

It really all depends on the attack at hand.

-paige

Kevin Leavitt
07-05-2005, 02:02 PM
I went back and pulled the original question. Here it is from Sonny:

just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?

the premise of his situation is 1. Full mount 2. He grabs you and trys to pull you down.

Full mount already assumes you are on the ground, so no amount of "side stepping" will solve this.

I will assume a "grab and try and pull you down" is some sort of clinch or modified clinch. Sure you can side step. O Soto Gari comes to mind. (Am I making the wrong assumption?)

Your presentation is "don't let him grab you at all" if I understand it correctly, not a good solution for this particular problem once he already has control of your center, or close to it.

I do agree that proper posture and movement and foot work can prevent this from happening, however it still does happen and we need good solutions to recover from it.

I respectfully disagree with your solution set to Sonny's question.

aikigirl10
07-05-2005, 02:19 PM
i was only referring to the part of the question about the take down , i didnt say anything about the full mount.

Red Beetle
07-20-2005, 11:53 PM
[QUOTE]I will assume a "grab and try and pull you down" is some sort of clinch or modified clinch. Sure you can side step. O Soto Gari comes to mind. (Am I making the wrong assumption?)

I had a challenge match against an Aikido black belt. When I applied the Gracie clinch, he tried to side step and do O-soto-gari. What he did not know is that the Gracie Jiu-jitsu clinch done properly has the Jiu-jitsu practitioner on the side of the adversary, hips lower than the adversary, and both legs are squeezing one of the legs of the adversary. So, if I am clinching my adversary and I am on his left side, then I am trapping his right arm in an overhook and trapping his left leg by pinching it with my knees. The leg trap from the clinch keeps the adversary from doing Judo throws like Uchi-mata (which most Judo guys try first when I lock on the clinch), Harai-goshi, and of course O-soto-gari.

Like I said, when I locked the clinch on he then, the Aikido black belt, tried to counter with O-soto, but it was too late. The throw attempt only caused him to stumble, and as he tried to keep from going down I threw him with Tani-otoshi, took the mount, then pinned him until he submitted (you don't have to punch a guy into submission if they do not know the escapes--you can simply apply one of several modified / suffocating pins--much more humane).

If you are going to use Aikido to stop Jiu-jitsu, then you must know what Jiu-jitsu has in mind for you. Jiu-jitsu has a plan, and they usually follow it to the letter. We call this plan text-book Jiu-jitsu. You can go to my web-site, www.kingsportjudo.com, and read a detailed analysis of the Jiu-jitsu fight plan under the 'Newsletter' button.

You need to study Jiu-jitsu tactics and techniques in order to get an idea what they need to win. Only when you have a clear understanding of your adversary's abilities can you begin to formulate counter-measures.

I teach Aikido, Jiu-jitsu, and Olympic Judo. I can tell you from experience that what makes Jiu-jitsu so effective is that the Gracies spent time learning how other Martial arts work, what they need to work, and then developed simple tactics to spoil their techniques. The Gracie clinch, for example, is an amazing tool. If you can acquire it in a real fight, then it shuts down boxers, kickers, Judo throws, free-style throws, and Greco-Roman throws. Once the clinch is established, you have to carefully pummel, that is a wrestling term, not to be taken in its boxing sense, your way to a more advantageous tie-up. Aikido students should learn basic wresting skills: how to pummel, how to shoot a double, how to shoot a single, how to sprawl when the guy shoots, how to use a front head lock, ect. Aikido students should also seek to learn some basic Judo. Knowing how to throw with the jacket, and how to block Judo throws is helpful. Most Judo throws resemble Aikido projections, so it will only help you.

I usually ask that my students take Judo and Jiu-jitsu for one year, before starting their study of Aikido. I have found, and my students have found as well, that Aikido is very clear to them after having a background in Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and ever Greco-Roman. I love Greco-Roman.




I do agree that proper posture and movement and foot work can prevent this from happening, however it still does happen and we need good solutions to recover from it.

Again, if you are good at pummeling, then you can keep Jiu-jitsu guys from taking you down. You can't keep them from jumping guard. If they can get their hands on you, then usually they will jump to closed guard, butterfly guard, or even half-guard. So, you need to also learn how to open the guard and stand up and back away. Marc Laimon did this successfully against Ryron Gracie when they fought last year. Ryron could not keep Marc from getting up and backing away, which caused the fight to go back to the standing position. But, keep in mind that Marc Laimon is awesome at Jiu-jitsu. Cobra-Kai Jiu-jitsu rocks! evileyes Again, if you are going to beat Jiu-jitsu, then your going to have to study it thoroughly.

If you are doing Aikido for a hobby, then maybe you don't need to be interested in learning Jiu-jitsu or Judo. But if your interested in practical self-defense, then why not study Judo and Jiu-jitsu? There is no law in our land that prevents you from training at more than one dojo. Most guys I know that teach Judo also have a dan rank in Aikido as well. The three, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido go nicely together. Have fun!

Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

Ron Tisdale
07-21-2005, 08:20 AM
Nice post Monty...thanks for sharing. Don't forget, plenty of aikidoka are already former wrestlers, judoka etc. But I have to admit, the gracie clinch sounds like good stuff, and I can see why pummeling and backing out would be the high percentage move.

Best,
Ron

Robert Rumpf
07-22-2005, 10:19 AM
If you are doing Aikido for a hobby, then maybe you don't need to be interested in learning Jiu-jitsu or Judo. But if your interested in practical self-defense, then why not study Judo and Jiu-jitsu? There is no law in our land that prevents you from training at more than one dojo. Most guys I know that teach Judo also have a dan rank in Aikido as well. The three, Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido go nicely together. Have fun!

I agree with almost all of this.

Monty, who did you learn your Aikido from, and how long did you train in Aikido for? Which style of Aikido do you teach your students? What styles does it derive from? Do you give them Aikido ranks, and do they go to Aikido seminars, or are they mainly encouraged to practice Aikido in their home dojo? Is Aikido taught as a side-bar, or are there actual formal Aikido classes?

Whom do you consider an Aikido expert, and who are the people who have taught you this Aikido that you know? I'd like to know so that if I ever run into them at a seminar, I can train with them. Do you ever go to Aikido seminars?

As for practical self-defense... for those of those truly interested in self-defense, I would recommend broadening the scope of your studies into other areas.

A true self defense expert would also be an expert in first aid (to stop the bleeding from all the knife fights that someone so interested in fighting would get into), know at least a little bit about the law (to keep out of jail from all the fighting, or keep from being sued in general), know about nutrition (got to keep that cholesterol down!), proficient in defensive driving (car accidents are a very common killer), be good with computers (watch out for that identity theft), be an expert marksmen, etc.

Personally, I am not interested in self-defense. I don't have time for studying so many things. Taking so many classes takes time away from my busy video-gaming schedule. I study Aikido for fun and as a hobby, and for what I perceive as being its positive effects in the other areas of my life. Oh, and maybe it helps with the cholesterol too. :)

Rob

Paula Lydon
07-22-2005, 01:46 PM
~~Done both. Ultimately--beyond technique--apples and oranges~~

Adam Alexander
07-22-2005, 03:03 PM
1)If you are going to use Aikido to stop Jiu-jitsu, then you must know what Jiu-jitsu has in mind for you...You need to study Jiu-jitsu tactics and techniques in order to get an idea what they need to win. Only when you have a clear understanding of your adversary's abilities can you begin to formulate counter-measures.

2)But if your interested in practical self-defense, then why not study Judo and Jiu-jitsu?

Regarding your story about the Aikidoka--his Aikido failed before you got the clinch.

1)Shioda, in "Aikido Shugyo," says that if you train against specific techniques, then evertime someone comes out with a new technique, you'll be in trouble. That's why Aikido trains against more than techniques--it trains to understand movement--Aikido by itself teaches everthing you need to know--as a tool for self-improvement or defense.

2)Because the time you waste memorizing and practicing those techniques would be better utilized memorizing and practicing your 1000's of Aikido techniques.

I'm not saying that Judo and Ju-Jutsu aren't valuable. Nor am I saying that Aikido's better (I do believe it is, but that's a matter of faith so really doesn't matter). I'm just saying that unless you're proficient with ALL Aikido techniques, you're not ready to move on.

I'd also say (however, with this I'm really talking out the wrong one) that you probably shouldn't take on another art before you meet the same criteria in Judo, Ju-Jutsu or any other art.


BTW, the original question about being in a clinch or getting your legs grabbed...if it got that far, relative to Aikido, you've already failed (atleast at my level of training it has...if it were me going down, I'd say that I didn't maintain distance).

Kevin Leavitt
07-22-2005, 03:23 PM
Robert,

We asked Monty about this question in another thread about a month ago. He refused/ignored to answer any questions about his lineage etc.

Kevin Leavitt
07-22-2005, 03:30 PM
Jean,

You should really try and study with some practicioners of other arts like jiujitsu. You will find the training methodology is not all about memorizing techniques. Muscle memory...yes. Just like in aikido.

I kinda equate aikido to academia. There are business professors that can tell you all about the economic theory of how to make a million dollars...then there are the "drop outs" who can actually do it. They may not understand the principles or the theory, but have the intuition, experience, and the common sense necessary to make it work for real.

On aikido failing: It is nice to have some breadth of experience that can compensate when your "aikido" fails...whatever that really means!

Adam Alexander
07-23-2005, 02:06 PM
1)You should really try and study with some practicioners of other arts like jiujitsu. You will find the training methodology is not all about memorizing techniques. Muscle memory...yes. Just like in aikido.

2)I kinda equate aikido to academia. There are business professors that can tell you all about the economic theory of how to make a million dollars...then there are the "drop outs" who can actually do it. They may not understand the principles or the theory, but have the intuition, experience, and the common sense necessary to make it work for real.

3)On aikido failing: It is nice to have some breadth of experience that can compensate when your "aikido" fails...whatever that really means!

1)To me, I think it's better to spend that time on your own techniques. When you've got your own techniques down...move on to more techniques.

2)Agreed. I think that's the case for all arts. However, the drop-out, although succesful, will only be able to explain how to repeat the achievement with the same circumstances...not understand the principal so that he/she can apply in under many different situations.

I see that all the time with Aikido. Folks who repeat that technique but have no grasp of it. These are the teachers I avoid...they're the ones stuck in "the paradigm of forms" (that is the Bruce Lee quote, isn't it?).

I also believe that's what we are seeing when people talk about techniques "not working." Those are your millionaires. They understand the technique works nice here, but they don't know how it can be made to work there.

3)I don't know. That's one of those things I've been wrestling with since I read it in one of your posts a while back.

For me, I think if someone is able to get me down, they're way beyond the rudimentary skill level. In that case, what's the sense to have been training BJJ or whatever part-time (PT might extend your time before going out, but you're still going out) when your full-time gig didn't keep you out of trouble?

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't train in other stuff...just that you should know your own first...and know it well.

Kevin Leavitt
07-23-2005, 04:46 PM
Good post Jean,

Here was the big paradigm shift for me.....

I was training a few officers in my battalion in aikido about a year ago, kinda dismissing the ground fighitng that the army is involved in as many aikidoka do because I felt it was very stupid to fight on the ground. Still feel that way, but I have a deeper understanding now of the dynamics of ground fighting, and also the dynamic it takes to train masses of soldiers for situational training.

What happened to me is I had a SGT in my Battalion that was really skilled in MMA, Judo, and BJJ in particular. We had the typically aikido/ground fighting discussion. It ended with us both doning mouth pieces, sticks, and MMA gloves and fighting.

Of course, we ended on the ground, and I had my ass handed to me. Later this year, I had a guy complete the two month intense Army combatives course with no prior experience in fighting or MA, he held his own against me. It was very humiliating and an eye opener.

My aikido training serves me well, especially in weapons fighting, it also allowed me to learn BJJ fairly rapidily and I am know miles ahead of others because of my understanding of kokyu, ki, posture etc.

The biggest lessons I have learned.

1. Know what you are looking for out of martial arts. Adapt your training to reach that goal.
2. TMA tend to be parochial and lend to "group think". If you are training to be a soldier, MMA guy or, a Cop, you may want to consider schools that are geared towards that.
3. If you are looking for BUDO or following the martial way..then TMA, like aikido is the ticket.
4. Constantly look inward to yourself and make sure you are being honest with your training
5. Be very careful in falling into the trap of what "realistic" is. Aikido, BJJ, Krav Maga and all arts have their own paradigm of what "realistic" is. None of them is entirely right in their training approach. If realistic training is your goal...you will have to work hard and question often to make sure you are accomplishing your goals!

Good discussion Jean.

L. Camejo
07-23-2005, 06:00 PM
1)To me, I think it's better to spend that time on your own techniques. When you've got your own techniques down...move on to more techniques.
...

Again, I'm not saying that you shouldn't train in other stuff...just that you should know your own first...and know it well.
I would like to support Jean's approach here. From my experience just too many Aikidoka don't put in the effort to understand the application of Aikido principles to "fighting" or real physical conflict. They often prefer to be "bottle fed" by their Instructors instead of applying themselves to derive what it is they need from the training. Oftentimes the reason for this is because the training methods that develop these sorts of skills are not often used in Aikido dojo, if at all.

However imho this is no reason why the individual should not do their own research and training with a "combative" (not in a military sense necessarilly) mindset or goal in place. In my early Kyu days I would take almost every technique we practiced at home or after class and strip it down to its principles and play with it to find ways of it working under serious resistance and extreme force conditions because for me it was, and still is important to know how things would work in a practical sense, regardless of what was being taught on the day.

I think that a lot of folks who practice Aikido miss a lot of the obvious combat applications since thesse things are often not stressed. But as Jean says, if you learn your own stuff well enough it will work for you. The thing is, a lot of Aikidoka don't approach training with the mindset of the typical Jujutsuka, Judoka etc. who expect at some point to test his skills and knowledge of principles on a trained, resisting opponent. It is also important to realise that no one system has all the answers and that ultimately "fighting prowess" comes down to whatever you can do successfully when "it" happens for real and is not defined by any one style or method except your own.

Many get their butt handed to them the first few times and assume that the art is lacking when it is their training methodology, approach and mindset that needs the work. It is interesting to see that among BJJ, JJJ, Judo etc. folks that when an Aikidoka tosses them around a bit or pins them that they don't assume their art is at fault but seek to fix their personal flaws through truthful self evaluation and hard training. I think if a lot more Aikidoka had this approach there would be a lot less question as to Aikido's practical usage and more answers regarding any personal obstacles encountered towards technical proficiency in a free fighting format as done by BJJ, Judo et al.

Just my thoughts. When you don't like the image the mirror presents, fix the image, don't break or tarnish the mirror imho.;)

LC:ai::ki:

DustinAcuff
07-23-2005, 06:53 PM
Just a few contributions:

Kevin, great story, but the concept works both ways. My sensei was a national karate champion at 17 back in the 70's when he went into the USMC. After bootcamp he joined the Recon. During his time in Recon school his cheif hand to hand combat instructor asked for anyone who had martial arts experience to step foward. About 5 guys stepped foward, including my sensei. Then the instructor told them to attack him with everything they had. Turns out that the instructor was a black belt in Aikido. Not only did none of the trainees touch him, the threw them around like ragdolls until they stopped attacking. My sensei was stunned about this, that his entire life of MA experience had not done him a bit of good against this guy, and so he started training Aikido.

On another note, I think one of the reasons that people tend to get into sticky situations and get their butt handed to them is just lack of experience. I know a number of black belts in Karate and TKD schools who have been beat by the random guy and started questioning their art immediately afterwords, especially the TKD people since TKD has such a bad reputation for reality. What it probably boils down to, IMHO, is these people have just never been hit with real intent behind it. Not specifically saying that they have never been hit, but that they just are not psychologically prepared for what could happen and that once they get a taste of somehting they have no schema for it rocks their world and they just go into shutdown mode. I submit that the more prepared person will always beat the more trained person.

wendyrowe
07-23-2005, 07:01 PM
My sensei was a national karate champion at 17 back in the 70's
One thing I've learned from training and helping teach at a Sport Karate dojo is that in general what wins national karate championships is good-looking technique rather than technique that is the most effective in a fight. So the champs have very good body dynamics within the parameters of their training, but there's a whole world of stuff with which they lack experience. And unless you're talking about sparring, the championships are based on forms rather than improvisation in the face of an attack -- so no wonder they couldn't cope.

DustinAcuff
07-23-2005, 07:11 PM
I am talking about sparring. He was also fresh out of boot camp as the star pupil. He went on to be a hand to hand instructor in the USMC at age 18. I am well aware that competition is in no way reality, but he was stunned that he couldn't touch this guy, let alone hurt him when he had been training every day for as long as he could remember.

Kevin Leavitt
07-24-2005, 01:26 AM
Larry wrote:
However imho this is no reason why the individual should not do their own research and training with a "combative" (not in a military sense necessarilly) mindset or goal in place. In my early Kyu days I would take almost every technique we practiced at home or after class and strip it down to its principles and play with it to find ways of it working under serious resistance and extreme force conditions because for me it was, and still is important to know how things would work in a practical sense, regardless of what was being taught on the day.



Good stuff Larry, I think you hit upon a key point, several actual in you post! What is most important is the attitude you approach your study with. (relates for to my point #1).

Aikido is a interesting paradox. On one hand we talk about it being non-violent, and a way to peace/harmony...yet on the other it is very violent etc. We are told not to worry about technique, but focus on prinicple.

Aikidoka will argue on here ad nausem about these things (me included!) This is why I say you must approach you studies with a goal/purpose in mind.

I agree many come to aikido, not really understanding the paradox and what it represents. Many do not care to internalize the techniques and realize that one day they may use them and need to really understand the application. Others totally focus on the physical fitness aspects and enjoy the "dance". Others may be into the whole KI thing.

Nothing wrong with those extreme approaches, but unless you really put yourself out there at take to heart what it is you are learning and why you are learning it..you will come up short.

One thing I have not really liked about aikido is what I call the "Church" mentality that can exsist in a dojo. The nature of training we use in aikido allows for people to simply attend training and not really put themselves into the training, they can smile, go through the movements, chastize me on my posture/ki and go home. They get a "warm and fuzzy", but never really put themselves into it

I equate this to "church" in the sense that many churches are filled with those that simply attend on special holidays and "check the block". They really contribute not much to their own aikido, nor the dojos.

These type can be dangerous, IMHO. one they end up with a false sense of security about how good they are in "real life"tm. They also set up other aikidoka for failure in by giving them a false sense of security, or aikidoka "smells the BS", and doubts the effectiveness of aikido training. Then comes on line and discusses that on aikiweb! :)

One thing I have enjoyed about MMA/BJJ is that it is difficult to get away with this. You must put yourself on the line and try hard. The nature of the training holds you accountable.

As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with the approach to training aikido uses, it does well to accomplish the goals of it's founder, O'Sensei. It just is not the only way, nor is it the best way for all endstates!

Kevin Leavitt
07-24-2005, 01:48 AM
Dustin,

I had a similar experience out in Ranger School in the mid 90s. Every platoon had to front one fighter and all four of us were in the ring at the same time. The rules were basically NHB rules, last man left in the ring standing was the winner.

It was a "game" as all competitions are, and I let the other three go at it until they got tired, and the odds evened. I layed down right next to the sandbag wall and "pulled guard" on the last guy and tossed him out of the ring.

My goals were simple: 1. don't get hurt and get kicked out of school. 2. Win if at all possible.

Funny thing is my guys called me the "P" word cause I didn't fight! I won, but I didn't fight!

Anyway, I too found my training was an asset much like your sensei. However, I have also found that the methodology employed to teach we use in aikido is not the right one for the military. Certain aspects of it are, but not as a complete methodology.

Dr. Richard Strozzi Heckler, an Aikidoka and sensei, spent much time with the Marine Corps in developing their program. Even then, it is not aikido today.

You sensei might find today that he would be facing many soldiers and marines with much more experience than the average soldier/marine had back then.

The military is going through a huge transformation. We became fascinated with hiding behind technology, today we are "discovering" that we must deal with people, up front and look them in the eyes, both as enemies and as fellow humans.

We have alot to learn about this as a modern military, but martial arts, IMHO, plays a key role in this process. At least as far as the Army is concerned, it is much more than a few simple "lines" training moves "by the numbers". Which is what we were doing back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's.

Well I certainly got off topic!

L. Camejo
07-24-2005, 02:29 PM
One thing I have enjoyed about MMA/BJJ is that it is difficult to get away with this. You must put yourself on the line and try hard. The nature of the training holds you accountable.

Great post Kevin, spot on.

The above quote is how our dojo approaches training as well. Of course as a result it may not be as big or as "popular" as some others where the "Church" mentality as you put it, is dominant.

Happy training.
LC:ai::ki:

DustinAcuff
07-24-2005, 04:10 PM
I realize that Aikido is about the last MA that I would recommend for the military unless you became trainees at about age 12 and didn't see combat until age 18. It simply takes too long to learn. The majority of the MAs hailed as the most effective can be taught to large numbers of people and have them proficient, not expert, within a year's time. Muai Thai, BJJ, Wing Chun, and Western Boxing are the first ones that come to mind. Aikido does have a place in the world, but it seems that the place it has is directly related to your mindset and how you were taught.

Here's some food for thought: during his last years O'Sensei would sadly say "I've given my life to opeining the path of Aikido but when I look back no one is following me." An American student said to him once "I really want to do your Aikido." To which he replied "How unusual! Everyone else wants to do their own Aikido."

Adam Alexander
07-24-2005, 05:32 PM
1)Good post Jean,

2)and also the dynamic it takes to train masses of soldiers for situational training.

3)Of course, we ended on the ground, and I had my ass handed to me. Later this year, I had a guy complete the two month intense Army combatives course with no prior experience in fighting or MA, he held his own against me. It was very humiliating and an eye opener.

4)it also allowed me to learn BJJ fairly rapidily and I am know miles ahead of others because of my understanding of kokyu, ki, posture etc.

5). TMA tend to be parochial and lend to "group think". If you are training to be a soldier, MMA guy or, a Cop, you may want to consider schools that are geared towards that.
6). Be very careful in falling into the trap of what "realistic" is. Aikido, BJJ, Krav Maga and all arts have their own paradigm of what "realistic" is. None of them is entirely right in their training approach. If realistic training is your goal...you will have to work hard and question often to make sure you are accomplishing your goals!

1)Thanks. It's very interesting.
2)Agreed. I mention that in another thread.
3)That doesn't say anything about Aikido...just how you've trained. I can see where you're coming from though--the reason for losing doesn't really matter...you just needed to fix it...quick.
4)I bet. I believe if you train in any MA, you'll learn another faster. However, I like to think that what I've learned in Aikido is sooo close to the root of MAs, that we learn even faster than others...call it bias...whatever.
5)TMA?
6)I agree, you should question. However, I get the impression that you're referring to something more specific? But, nonetheless, I think just because you don't get the answer you're looking for (about realism) you should, most of the time, just be cool and trust the process.

Kevin Leavitt
07-24-2005, 05:35 PM
TMA= Traditional Martial Arts. Aikido, Karatedo, Judo....

Sirhoward90
10-28-2010, 05:37 PM
Or are you looking for a specifically Aikido response to the takedown/mount/submission? If so then I have some bad news for you. There ain't one. Which of course isn't to say there isn't an AIKI response. If you take the concepts that gave birth to aikido and examine how they may apply when your feet aren't on the ground and you have to find completely different models for movement, and then practice that application throughly testing it against an opponant, you will find many ways to counter. This is called BJJ.

I agree and disagree with you. I agree that you could come to BJJ with that process, but I also believe that the way Brazillian Jujutsu is taught in mixed martial arts is not very aiki-friendly. Professional Jujutsu stuff can be very fluid though.

Kevin Leavitt
10-29-2010, 01:00 PM
Jeff,

In my experiences, "aiki-friendly" might depend on who you study with. All the 6th Degrees in BJJ that I have studied with tend to be very aiki-friendly.

It's the white belts that typcially are not "aiki-friendly"...and that is also the case with white belts in Aikido...they are just learning.

Also, there can be a big difference in MMA and BJJ. Most MMA guys are not so worried about perfecting jiu-jitsu, but about learning how to deal with it...so of course YMMV. Is this what you mean?

MikeE
10-29-2010, 02:24 PM
Holy crap! I was reading this thread and realized I posted on it in 2004. Resurrection!

Now, having just under 22 years of Aikido and 12 years of BJJ under my belt...I can say that my BJJ is much more fluid now that it is in concord with my Aikido. They are very, very similar in my eyes. Seeing the similarities rather than the differences has made them work for me.

Sirhoward90
10-29-2010, 06:11 PM
Oh, I understand that Brazillian Jiu-Jitsu can be very useful and fluid. I just mean the stuff I see in cagefighting isn't exactly the most relaxed, or technique and skill base. More on aggression and fitness imo.

Michael Varin
10-30-2010, 08:19 PM
Now, having just under 22 years of Aikido and 12 years of BJJ under my belt...I can say that my BJJ is much more fluid now that it is in concord with my Aikido. They are very, very similar in my eyes. Seeing the similarities rather than the differences has made them work for me.

I really hate when people start asking questions about rank, but mine is merely out of curiosity. What is your rank in bjj? What I'm really asking is has your training been continuous and included regular sparring?

Also, I'm very curious; do you train aikido and bjj concurrently? If so, how do you feel about the lack of sparring in aikido, and its impact on the relative effectiveness of these two arts?

Michael Varin
10-30-2010, 08:49 PM
I just mean the stuff I see in cagefighting isn't exactly the most relaxed, or technique and skill base. More on aggression and fitness imo.
I wouldn't be too sure of that. What are you basing your assessment on?

Your skill level has to be substantially higher than your opponent to make things look clinical when your opponent is trying to beat you.

One that comes to mind was the fight between Georges Saint-Pierre and Dan Hardy earlier this year. You might be able to find it online. Total domination, but even in that fight GSP couldn't finish Hardy.

grondahl
10-31-2010, 10:58 AM
Have you checked out the homepage listed in his profile?

http://www.midwestaikido.com/dnn3/MartialArts/AdultClasses/RiganMachadoBrazilianJiujitsuinHudsonWI/tabid/106/Default.aspx

I really hate when people start asking questions about rank, but mine is merely out of curiosity. What is your rank in bjj? What I'm really asking is has your training been continuous and included regular sparring?

Also, I'm very curious; do you train aikido and bjj concurrently? If so, how do you feel about the lack of sparring in aikido, and its impact on the relative effectiveness of these two arts?

Chris Evans
10-31-2010, 06:57 PM
my limited understanding is that
Aikido seems to specialized in the take-down phase, or the clinch, area of no-weapon martial arts;
most Kara-Te (or karate/TKD) specialize in the contact phase, the stand-up;
Jiujitsu (esp. BJJ) specialize in on the ground while Judo practice evenly on take-downs and on ground.

if you're "playing*" jiujitsu than you must work on jiujitsu to counter.

Judo or Jiujitsu's a lot of fun and a great workout.

*it's either a game (with judges and prizes) or it's Budo (of life and death matter)."

Kevin Leavitt
11-01-2010, 03:15 PM
*it's either a game (with judges and prizes) or it's Budo (of life and death matter)."

....or it can be both

Aikido is a way of aiki... It specializes in teaching aiki

Yes, takedowns etc are involved, but aikido is not focused or specialized on tactics so much.

Also most judo typically is not "even" on takedowns and ground and judo focuses on throws vice takedowns...although of course, YMMV.

Chris Evans
11-01-2010, 04:38 PM
*it's either a game (with judges and prizes) or it's Budo (of life and death matter)."

....or it can be both

Aikido is a way of aiki... It specializes in teaching aiki

Yes, takedowns etc are involved, but aikido is not focused or specialized on tactics so much.

Also most judo typically is not "even" on takedowns and ground and judo focuses on throws vice takedowns...although of course, YMMV.

Whatever ever you think Aiki is, can not exist, expressed, or developed without the physical.

What little I've seen of Aikido, the making contact aspects are limited and much of it presumed, but what to do with the contact seems to be focused on a yielding and blending the take-down with control. The Aiki inner-personal harmonizing aspects are wonderful with "harmless" people, in business and with acquaintances, but perhaps is not recommend with idealists that are committed to violence. Since I know I don't "know" Aiki, I have begun adding Aikido to my "Budo" practice.

Judo throws (and sweeps) are take-downs, dealing with the clinch. My favorate Judo quote is: "Conditioning is the greatest hold," by Karl Gotch.

BJJ strongly focuses on the competitive sport element of ground fighting and does an outstanding job of conditioning and of learning to deal with fear and pain that hones the confidence needed to think clearly to prevent or solve personal conflicts.

By the way, it's amazing how many educated (esp. the more erudite) people practicing martial arts hold on to many delusions about martial arts (and kindly show me when I do).

Michael Varin
11-03-2010, 04:09 AM
My favorate Judo quote is: "Conditioning is the greatest hold," by Karl Gotch.

What does Karl Gotch have to do with judo?

Chris Evans
11-03-2010, 11:05 AM
Holy crap! I was reading this thread and realized I posted on it in 2004. Resurrection!

Now, having just under 22 years of Aikido and 12 years of BJJ under my belt...I can say that my BJJ is much more fluid now that it is in concord with my Aikido. They are very, very similar in my eyes. Seeing the similarities rather than the differences has made them work for me.

Thanks for your insight, Michael.

I am looking forward to integrating Aikido with my Karate and Judo or BJJ practices (I alternate or mix between these schools: a university Judo and a BJJ gym).

Matter of fact, I don't see any artificial separations inteh the traditional martial arts.

I pursue MMA/Hapkido-skillsets by:
~Karate: 2~4/week (only to touch/tag sport-karate, very limited contact - quite delusional in the name of safety, but good forms and spirit)
~Judo or BJJ 2/week (some of the BJJ players do MMA with me and wow(!) -- real humbling, painful, and insightful; Judo's real, very "honest" and down to earth).
~Shodokan Aikido: 2/week (just started, hope I can keep it up)

That's about 6 days a week of Budo.

To me, "Hapkido" is 1/3 Karate/fighting-TKD, 1/3 Aikido, and 1/3 Jujitsu....like chasing three rabbits at once :rolleyes: .

Chris Evans
11-03-2010, 11:11 AM
What does Karl Gotch have to do with judo?

Wrestling (the real sport) has insights that Judo or any Budo-ka can learn from.

Outside of a dojo or gym, how can a casual obsever distinguish what's from wrestling and what's from Judo?

From a distance, for a time, a drowning man appears similar to a man struggling to swim.

Richard Stevens
11-08-2010, 12:26 PM
just asking u guys, how can u defend yourself if your in a full mount of a jiu-jitsu expert? or what if he grabs u by the legs & try to put u down?
ive experience sparring with a jiu-jitsu, its hard especially when he tried to take me down to the ground, doing the arm bar or the ankle lock.. how do u counter that moves?

If someone's face is within your reach there is no reason you shouldn't be able to figure a way to get back up. However, if you're talking about defending it in a friendly way (as in no thumbs embedded in eye sockets), nikyo can be implemented well from your back with a little practice. ;)

grondahl
11-08-2010, 02:16 PM
The nineties just called, it wants it post back.

If someone's face is within your reach there is no reason you shouldn't be able to figure a way to get back up. However, if you're talking about defending it in a friendly way (as in no thumbs embedded in eye sockets), nikyo can be implemented well from your back with a little practice. ;)

DonMagee
11-10-2010, 03:03 PM
If someone's face is within your reach there is no reason you shouldn't be able to figure a way to get back up. However, if you're talking about defending it in a friendly way (as in no thumbs embedded in eye sockets), nikyo can be implemented well from your back with a little practice. ;)

This post half makes me want to start a James Randi style fund for martial arts.

$20.00 for the person who can eye gouge me while I have them in the mount before I get annoyed at them and pound them unconscious! :D

Must be willing to come to me because I'm really lazy.

roadtoad
04-20-2012, 02:20 AM
there's no 'proper' aikido for that, but, you can use the aikido concepts.If someone has you on your back, in the mount position, you need to ward off his blows, and then work your (say) right arm over to his right side, under his right shoulder, as to try and throw him shomenuchi irimi nage omote style. Meanwhile, work your legs loose, and try to get your (say) left leg wrapped around the front of his left neck, then, flop him over on his back, or belly,and get an arm lock on him.
This is nothing close to what anyone would call aikido, but, it is the type of technique that I think more dojos should practice, in order to bring aikido into the 21st century.

Richard Stevens
04-23-2012, 09:13 AM
Unless the "hypothetical person" has some experience in grappling there is very little they are going to be able to do on the ground against a "hypothetical jiu-jitsu expert".

Hypothetically, is there anything a Jiu-Jitsu practitioner will be able to do to stop their wrist from being broken if an Aikido expert has nikkyo locked in?

PeterR
04-23-2012, 09:47 AM
Hypothetical Jiu-Jitsu practitioner will know all about nikkyo and wont let himself get into that position.

And a well trained aikido person should be able to pick up grappling very quickly.

Richard Stevens
04-23-2012, 10:10 AM
And hypothetically an Aikido practitioner will avoid the mount. Hypothetically.

ramenboy
04-23-2012, 12:23 PM
And hypothetically an Aikido practitioner will avoid the mount. Hypothetically.

^this! hahaha

richard, that's what my sempai would always tell me! they would always say things like 'don't go to the ground.' '...you should never go to the ground...' which became irritating, because they never did say what to do IF i ended up on the ground.

that's why i think its important to teach students at the very least how to escape the mount. 'just in case.'

better to know how to swim before you fall into the water.

Richard Stevens
04-24-2012, 09:10 AM
All joking aside, if you don't have at least a fundamental grasp of grappling you are doing yourself a dis-service. Coming from a judo background I'm fully aware of how capable even an untrained person is of taking another individual to the ground if they have no experience in any sort of grappling.

Kevin Leavitt
04-24-2012, 10:04 AM
...AND what if the guy is BOTH a AIkido practictioner and a Jiu Jitsu practictioner? then what?

lol.

I have a very basic class structure I teach for students that want to get educated on "going to the ground" and managing the fight.

Doesn't require years, and years of perfecting BJJ newaza, but educated them clearly that there is a little bit more than simply avoiding going to the ground.

ramenboy
04-24-2012, 12:03 PM
I have a very basic class structure I teach for students that want to get educated on "going to the ground" and managing the fight.

Doesn't require years, and years of perfecting BJJ newaza, but educated them clearly that there is a little bit more than simply avoiding going to the ground.

exactly. Just a basic 'escaping the mount' then get clear.

Kevin Leavitt
04-24-2012, 05:10 PM
Not to be contrary, but a little more than just a basic escaping the mount, then get clear. Don't want to give people the impression that it is an easy thing to do in a real fight necessarily.

ramenboy
04-24-2012, 09:20 PM
Not to be contrary, but a little more than just a basic escaping the mount, then get clear. Don't want to give people the impression that it is an easy thing to do in a real fight necessarily.

Not at all. It's not an easy thing. But, tactically speaking, you don't know if you're only dealing with one person. if there's the chance that more than one person is involved in an attack, I wouldnt try to get into a clinch with that person... My 2 cents, I guess.:)

At least we're agreed on students needing some instruction on what to do if they end up on the ground

Kevin Leavitt
04-24-2012, 11:35 PM
Yes, two people definitely complicate things and absolutely you need to try and keep distance and control (or create it)....try to put furniture or something else between you and them, deploy another weapon...etc, etc.

Clinching, well, I agree that it is not something you necessarily seek out...but the thing about clinching is, when you have to do it, you simply have to do it. It is about gaining or loosing control of the fight and not so much about that freedom of movement or choice you have in the situation. In some scenarios with multiple opponents it is what you need to do cause that is what you have and controlling that space might be necessary to avoid further bad things happening to you.

If you think about it, clinching is really the same thing as irimi nage, except a little closer than what we typically are used to. You can irimi...then tenkan in the clinch placing your opponent between you and the "multiple".

So, that is the thing for me. It is not about what you'd like to do, but what you have to do.

So, imo, the clinch and working it, is absolutely one of the core things everyone should know. It is one of the core, basic things I teach and work with guys on who are not concerned with learning BJJ, but the basics of fighting. I also work with them on other variations and distances with iriminage.

ramenboy
04-25-2012, 01:52 PM
If you think about it, clinching is really the same thing as irimi nage, except a little closer than what we typically are used to. You can irimi...then tenkan in the clinch placing your opponent between you and the "multiple".

In that respect, I agree. The way you decribe irimi nage... From standing? Definitely. Then it makes total sense. Keep keep the opponent between you and the other attacker. But escape the mount, then get in a clinch on the ground? If there's another attacker?

If I get in a tied up with one attacker on the ground, trying for an armbar, i lose focus on the other person maybe. Thats why I start to think escape, then get clear.

Kevin Leavitt
04-26-2012, 02:35 AM
Jerome, I am with you. In fact, I teach combatives instructor to avoid the mount and stick with a knee on belly if possible. Mount is too committed. If you have your legs over your opponent it is pretty much impossible to dismount and deal with the next guy without creating a condition for the guy on the bottom to react.

While knee on belly gives up some control of the uke, it allows you to better respond to others. There are always trade offs in everything we do.

Yeah, arm bars...they are real committed solutions, but then again, in the right circumstances...they are a tool.

I try to expose my students to as much of the spectrum and curriculum of jiu jitsu as possible and guide them through the various risk and decision process as possible given different conditions and scenarios.

I have not found one technique/process yet that does not have a use under the appropriate conditions. we just have to make sure we understand what those are!

You bring up a good point about escaping the mount and then losing focus. In CQB training I talk alot to the guys about emotional investment and attachment. Under stress, guys will do just that, get focused on the one guy and hit him over and over again instead of taking him out or isolating him and moving on. We try and build scenarios the educate on this and then create habits that minimize this investment.

ryback
04-27-2012, 06:18 AM
Well the thread got huge by now,so I will try to state my opinion having in mind the original post and simultaneously tying to avoid the "this vs that martial art trap".The way I see it one should avoid in any case getting himself in a disadvantage by using his perception of his training in zanshin and maai principles,whether his attackers are martial artists or not.If he ends up on the ground nevertheless,there are ways to get out of there using aikido principles but it depends on one's level of ability as always.

Kevin Leavitt
04-27-2012, 07:29 AM
One should avoid...absolutely! at all cost!

However, when you can't.....of course!

AIki princples should always apply in everything we do!

D-Ring
04-27-2012, 12:54 PM
All joking aside, if you don't have at least a fundamental grasp of grappling you are doing yourself a dis-service. Coming from a judo background I'm fully aware of how capable even an untrained person is of taking another individual to the ground if they have no experience in any sort of grappling.

One day out of the blue my sensei said, "You can never say an aikidoist dosen't know how to fight because you never know what else they may have trained in." That line takes on new relavance for me every few years. Cross training in other arts is invaluable because no single style trains for everything and there's nothing worse that getting suprised with something you've never seen or never trained for.

roadtoad
04-28-2012, 11:46 PM
when I was in japan, in'64. An australian olympic oarsman. 6'4", a friend of a judo buddy of mine, walked up to me, and pushed his closed fist on my shoulder, thumb down, ready for nikkyo. I could do half squats with 650 lbs., then, but, I couldn't do anything with the oarsman. I explained that we would have to start from scratch, so I could do atemi- waza, work him into position, etc. but, actually, I just got caught in a trap by a judo guy, out to prove that aikido was no good.

i

James Sawers
04-30-2012, 05:10 PM
Some thoughts on this thread:

"You can never say an aikidoist dosen't know how to fight because you never know what else they may have trained in."

Can't say I agree with this message. The implication is that Aikido, by itself, is not sufficient to "fight" with.

I have been studying Aikido for about 14 years and agree that it is not a complete martial art (but, which art is?). However, that is not the intent, is it. We, who study Aikido, have chosen it for what it does offer, a way of handling conflict without harm to others (at best). If someone just wants to learn self-defence, they are better off taking a long weekend self-defence course, including the safe and proper use of guns.

As for ground work. I have dabbled in a few other martial arts besides Aikido, some included some ground work, which I found to be very valuable. My most memorable instruction in this regard was my Army close combat training a long time ago. It was VERY limited in those days, but one of the things I most remember is that just because you have been forced to the ground, the fight is far from over, whether you manage to get back to your feet or fight from the ground.

As for the comment about the 6'4" Australian oarman. Roadtoad was at a disadvantage as he was attempting to do nikkyo on a very strong, experiencd person from a static position. My experience is this is usally done when teaching newbies, teaching them the basics of the technique. Aikido, done in "real" life is usally done dynamically. In the dojo I train in we have a aikidoist (Nidan) who is 6'5" and weighs about 340 pounds. He is very experienced and very kind to us mere mortals. However, if he did a commited attack, and nage manage to take his balance, then the throw, or pin, should work (I'm simplifying things here, but you get my drift). If he did as our Australian friend did and just statically thrust his hand in a nikkyo position on someone 's shoulder, I don't know of anyone who could move him. If it was me, I'd just pull my gun and shoot him (hey, just kidding, we have to park our guns at the door).

Sorry, if these comments have been covered in other threads....

In Good Practice...

Jim

www.nothing-works.com

:circle:

jackie adams
05-01-2012, 07:29 AM
when I was in japan, in'64. An australian olympic oarsman. 6'4", a friend of a judo buddy of mine, walked up to me, and pushed his closed fist on my shoulder, thumb down, ready for nikkyo. I could do half squats with 650 lbs., then, but, I couldn't do anything with the oarsman. I explained that we would have to start from scratch, so I could do atemi- waza, work him into position, etc. but, actually, I just got caught in a trap by a judo guy, out to prove that aikido was no good.

i

Wheres the like button?

I just love those silly traps...

I have more to say on the subject at http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/jackie-adamss-blog-21839/aikido-homo-vs-hetero-ju-4500/

jackie adams
05-01-2012, 07:57 AM
I apologize for my rudeness of not providing a greeting in the last thing I said. Please indulge me in correcting my error.

Hello everyone. It is my hope everyone is doing well this fine day.

Where's the like button?

I just love those silly traps...

I have more to say on the subject at http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/jackie-...etero-ju-4500/ (http://www.aikiweb.com/blogs/jackie-...etero-ju-4500/)

roadtoad
05-01-2012, 02:01 PM
I walked out of aikido 40 years ago, when Kissomaru fired Tohei, I won't come back until I develop the 'big Ki'.
Meanwhile, I've taken a zillion different arts. For someone trying to tackle me low, I use a combination of an Indonesian style, and judo. I fold my arm in, like an elbow strike, to push him back,.about waist high, preferably, to his week side, then, try and clip his furtherist leg behind him, at the knee joint,with my heel, then rock him until tou take his balance, then, use a judo sacrifice. There are at least 4 different directions that you could throw him, usually, he goes over your body, as you fall to the ground, floor, mat, etc.