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drDalek
05-04-2004, 05:00 PM
Does Aikido, more than any other martial art suffer from an overabundance of the fruitier elements?

Do you sometimes feel that you are unable to practice the way that would most benefit you because your intstructor either has to accomodate a large number of granola munching hippies or is one him/herself?

I sometimes wish there were more options for me to explore. Sure, I wont ever find the perfect dojo and the balance that I am looking for would be hard to achieve or maintain.

I dont want to have to listen to 30 minute sermons on Ki or mystical mumbo jumbo that the practitioner himself needs to discover or explore but I also dont want to go to a paramillitary screaming drill sergeant of an instructor with a crewcut and shellshock.

I got a few suggestions from someone who used to practice Aikido, attended some randori intensives with George Ledyard sensei and now practices Systema. The reason he switched is unknown but apparently he would not have switched if he could study under George Ledyard himself, these are his hints and tips.


0) make sure that you don't use too much muscular strength (as little as possible).
1) pratice Atemi
2) learn how to strike so that you can deliver physical atemi.
3) pratice kicks and defence from them.
4) Make sure your partner's attack is real. In many Aikido dojos people have a habbit of strike the air next to the person instead of strikin the person. if this happens just ask your partner to give you honest attack. It does not have to be fast but it must be on target. Hopefully after a while people get used to the fact that you want them to strike you for real.
- if you technique fails or does not achieve everything you hoped it would(i.e. partner is unbalanced but not down on the ground), always switch to something else, improvise. Hopefully your teacher does not mind if you do this.
5) after class, practice defence from any attack
6) don't take for granted that certian move will work, test it!
If you don't see how can it work, ask your instructor. (Don't over do this though, if it tuns out that some technique does not work, instructor may not like it).
7) adapt techniques so that they work for you
don't resist too much during ukemi (it's better from martial stand point to follow and reverse the technique then resist - when you resist you open yourself up for atemi)
9) practice ukemi on hard surfaces


As it stands I can maybe request this kind of practice from about 3 other people who I see only now and then. We do have a lot of not very martially-minded beginners though but even so, many of the more experienced practitioners are unwilling to go beyond the scope of normal day to day practice even on relatively gentle exercises.

Any hints or tips for me on how I can push up the levels of my daily practice?

MitchMZ
05-04-2004, 05:29 PM
I think you are learning the wrong art. In fact, the reason why I started Aikido was the great blend of martial effectiveness and spiritual elements. If I wanted strictly technique; I would still be taking Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Aikido is not an art for self defense oriented people; not because its not effective for that. But, because it is SO much more than that. Personally, I feel if you want to learn the "cool stuff" you SHOULD also have to put up with the "fruitier" elements. Honestly, I feel these are the most important to me. Maybe that makes me a fruit/hippie!?

Ian Williams
05-04-2004, 05:52 PM
Hi Wynand, sounds like you'd fit right into our Jujitsu classes :)

From an outsider looking in, yes, I do think Aikido attracts the tree hugger types who are less interested in the martial aspects and more into the "psuedo religion - Aikido will be my path" types.

If I want my spiritual needs seen to, I'll go see a priest/rabbi/iman. But hey that's just me.

arachnoJill
05-04-2004, 06:00 PM
I am very new to this, but at our dojo we seem to practice one the physiological elements more than the spiritual. Some of us are more interested in the spiritual side of it, but we tend to learn about and discuss it privately. When we are in class, we are learning the movements pretty much the whole time. For me, I find that I do best when I feel my energy work in a certain way, so I tend to focus on the Ki element more than others because that is the way that I understand it best. More technically minded individuals may prefer to look at the bio-mechanical side. Whatever works for you. I guess maybe you should try to do to as many seminars as you can. Maybe you will feel refreshed if you find one that is more your speed. Are you feeling thisi just from your dojo, or from your Aikido experiences in general?

shihonage
05-04-2004, 06:15 PM
I agree with every point of the advice your friend gave you, and I try to follow most of it as well.

Oh and ...

There's no such thing as "training spiritual aspects".
When you train properly in the physical, you grow spiritually.

If you just train "spiritually", whatever that means, then you're merely deluding yourself and dilating the art.
If you're not giving honest attacks and you're not doing honest throws, then you're practicing a lie.

These "spiritual-only" people will one day end up as grumpy black belts who have a fake, strained smile on their face as they stop a beginner who gives them an attack "they're not used to" and, with a smirk, lecture the poor soul for half an hour - instead of adapting to the attack and showing that the art WORKS.

The latter would indeed be a proper show of spirit - that is, being ready and adaptive without becoming hostile and defensive.

stuartjvnorton
05-04-2004, 06:31 PM
That's why I took up Yoshinkan Aikido.
I looked at a few places & they were all about readings & seated meditation with about 10 minutes of relaxed training thrown in there somewhere, or some unbendable arm stuff.
Then I found a Yoshinkan dojo where people were there for hard training & the rest is history.

p00kiethebear
05-04-2004, 06:56 PM
If by "fruitier elements" you mean "total kick-assed-ness" then yes. There is way too much awesome stuff in aikido. I dunno if i can handle it.

I've seen a few ki aikido and "spiritual" people do some kickass stuff. Just because you can't learn to do their technique in an hour lesson doesn't mean it isn't a valid form of aikido, just different. You practice it for 20 years and it becomes a part of you, and you end up with 8th dans like kashiwaya sensei who merely have to caress your hand to make you crumble under their kotegaeshi.

If they're unwilling to go farther, then that's their choice. It's not necessarily a lie. It's just not their thing. They practice something differently, and (hopefully) not with the mind set that they can defend themselves. Let the hippies be hippies, if you don't like working with them, then don't, it shouldn't matter to you what they believe aikido is. If they're happy rolling when nage says "roll" then don't criticize that. Don't hammer on them because they want to get something out of aikido that you don't want to Quit bitching and find a dojou that teaches what you want to be taught.

No one is asking you to be there and put up with hippy crap. If you you don't like it, then what the hell are you doing in that dojou? If it's obviously not for you, find something else that better fits you. The point is, the sensei is teaching HIS or HER art that THEY want to teach. not the thing that YOU want to learn.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
05-04-2004, 07:00 PM
I'd like to point out that the '10 Points' mentioned above could be practiced for reasons other than martial effectiveness. I've often heard those things phrased differently. For instance, in order to study proper harmony and correct form, it is necessary that uke give a clear and well-aimed strike. Otherwise, they have not given the energy they need to give for the technique to flow together. (As it's been said, "Both people are studying aikido.") As for the randori/jiyu-waza elements, for another example, they can be considered a form of training designed to help loosen people up and get used to adapting as nage. (Personally, I'm against viewing jiyu-waza as "real life combat simulation" or something of that nature; it may be a part of martial effectiveness, and more resemble "a real fight" than kata, but I still consider it a form of training, not fighting or sparring.)

Fortunately, I think it is very possible for both kinds of people to study together. At Carleton, we have some people who view aikido as a martial art, and others who tend to view it in other lights. They may do things differently, and surely it affects how they train, but in my experience both can and should provide the other with what they need. (Maybe this is too sappy and optimistic, but it seems like all these viewpoints advocate the same kind of technique; neither 'grr, break my partner' or 'twirl and prance' are considered desirable, no matter who you ask.)

shihonage
05-04-2004, 07:59 PM
If by "fruitier elements" you mean "total kick-assed-ness" then yes. There is way too much awesome stuff in aikido. I dunno if i can handle it.

I've seen a few ki aikido and "spiritual" people do some kickass stuff. Just because you can't learn to do their technique in an hour lesson doesn't mean it isn't a valid form of aikido, just different. You practice it for 20 years and it becomes a part of you, and you end up with 8th dans like kashiwaya sensei who merely have to caress your hand to make you crumble under their kotegaeshi.

If they're unwilling to go farther, then that's their choice. It's not necessarily a lie. It's just not their thing. They practice something differently, and (hopefully) not with the mind set that they can defend themselves. Let the hippies be hippies, if you don't like working with them, then don't, it shouldn't matter to you what they believe aikido is. If they're happy rolling when nage says "roll" then don't criticize that. Don't hammer on them because they want to get something out of aikido that you don't want to Quit bitching and find a dojou that teaches what you want to be taught.

No one is asking you to be there and put up with hippy crap. If you you don't like it, then what the hell are you doing in that dojou? If it's obviously not for you, find something else that better fits you. The point is, the sensei is teaching HIS or HER art that THEY want to teach. not the thing that YOU want to learn.


Nathan, you appear to be unable to distinguish between softness and ineffectiveness.
You put a mishmash of unrelated things into one mumble-jumble of a post, which lacks any semblance of continuity, sense, or point.

Arguing with you would be like trying to explain to a small child why he can't shoot an arrow into the sun. Children still live in their dreams.
Please feel free to tackle this subject again when you've actually gotten some minimal experience with the physical side of martial arts.

As for your last point, it's often not the instructor's fault.
It's the prevalance of students who get "upset" when one tries to give honest (not violent, just honest !) attacks and asks for the same in return.

Joe Jutsu
05-04-2004, 08:59 PM
You practice it for 20 years and it becomes a part of you, and you end up with 8th dans like kashiwaya sensei who merely have to caress your hand to make you crumble under their kotegaeshi.




Haha, that is so true. Kashiwaya sensei is an amazing martial artist, and an effective one!

And on a side note, most of the hippies that I know who study martial arts (and some might include me in that category) are very concerned with self defense applications of their art. But whatever, it's fun to slag off on groups of people, isn't it? :confused:

:ki:
Joe

MitchMZ
05-04-2004, 09:57 PM
For those of you who don't understand.... I have a little to a lot of experience in my fair share of martial arts including; Judo, BJJ and Hapkido, hell even a little sample of Boxing and Jeet Kune Do. None of those ever did much more for me than, "Oh cool, you could really use that effectively!"

Aikido has changed my life completely. I don't know how to describe it, but for once I'm finally happy. I don't think techniques have anything to do with that. You get what you put in. If you treat Aikido as self defense, you will be able to defend yourself well no doubt. If you treat it as a lifestyle, you will be able to do things you would have never thought possible before. I went from aspiring to be in UFC; to aspiring to achieve peace and calm in my life, as well as bring that to others.

Nick P.
05-04-2004, 10:17 PM
Nathan, you appear to be unable to distinguish between softness and ineffectiveness.
You put a mishmash of unrelated things into one mumble-jumble of a post, which lacks any semblance of continuity, sense, or point.

Arguing with you would be like trying to explain to a small child why he can't shoot an arrow into the sun. Children still live in their dreams.
Please feel free to tackle this subject again when you've actually gotten some minimal experience with the physical side of martial arts.

As for your last point, it's often not the instructor's fault.
It's the prevalance of students who get "upset" when one tries to give honest (not violent, just honest !) attacks and asks for the same in return.

No, Aleksey, it's just you who can't seem to follow his points.
And no need to be so rude.

Tharis
05-04-2004, 10:45 PM
Interesting forum. I tend to think that the whole martial/spiritual dichotomy is an illusion. You train in the physical, learn to give and receive more powerful technique, and your spirit develops. You meditate on the spiritual and/or work on "soft" or "slow" technique, and your physical aikido develops. There is no clearly demarcated line between the two, at least in my opinion.

The problems, possibly, come when people imagine that there is such a line.

The all-physical types would be the ones that end up breaking uke in the process of doing what they might call "real" self defense. Not exactly aiki.

On the other hand, the all spiritual types would forget that Aikido is a martial art and give lazy attacks or practice throws in a manner that makes absolutely no sense from a martial standpoint. That isn't really aiki either. It's called contact improv;)

I guess you just have to find a happy medium between the two.

Yours in ukemi,

Thomas

zachbiesanz
05-05-2004, 12:25 AM
6) don't take for granted that certain move will work, test it!
If you don't see how can it work, ask your instructor. (Don't over do this though, if it tuns out that some technique does not work, instructor may not like it).

I don't think I would advise this one too much. Most students learn pretty quickly not to say "I just don't see how this can be effective" and then find themselves crumpled into a heap by its effectiveness. Rather than pestering your sensei, just keep trying. It seems like it will take longer, but learning how to learn is incredibly valuable, and its something you can best gain through trial and error. Also, figuring something out for yourself is very rewarding, and well worth the frustration of not being told what you're doing wrong.

I think Nathan has a couple excellent points. One is that aikido really is overflowing with awesomeness. Just about everyday I learn something completely new and completely awesome from practice. Also, he is correct in that you cannot master a technique in an hour. That takes at least a week. ;)

The last thing I want to touch on is the crazy notion that the only value in training in martial arts is fighting effectiveness. If you're not a bouncer in a rough neighborhood or interested in UFC as a career, chances are you're not gonna get in a lot of fights in your lifetime, but you will probably interact with a lot of people and even develop interpersonal relationships with them. The "spiritual" things that get mentioned are often simple cognitive revelations, like "hey, if someone wishes me ill, i shouldn't just stand there and take it" or "i should stop pussyfooting around my problems, but rather go straight in and deal with them."

I guess the bottom line is that you can't punch your problems away in real life the same way you can in video games.

shihonage
05-05-2004, 12:38 AM
No, Aleksey, it's just you who can't seem to follow his points.


Do you really want to go through this ?


I've seen a few ki aikido and "spiritual" people do some kickass stuff. Just because you can't learn to do their technique in an hour lesson doesn't mean it isn't a valid form of aikido, just different. You practice it for 20 years and it becomes a part of you, and you end up with 8th dans like kashiwaya sensei who merely have to caress your hand to make you crumble under their kotegaeshi.


Several things wrong with this paragraph.
1) Who do you define as "spiritual" people ? Those that practice the physical honestly ARE the ones who properly developed their "spiritual" side (O Sensei's teachings state that Aikido is a unity of physical and spiritual).
"Ki Aikido" does not necessarily make one an Aikido fruitcake either.
So, yes, the real "spiritual" people do indeed do some "kickass stuff", no argument from me.

2) About not being able to learn a technique in an hour. Is there an Aikido technique you CAN learn to do perfectly in an hour ?
And aren't there many techniques which ARE considered "20 year techniques" ?
In other words, a completely baseless comparison based on fictional assumptions.

3) Kashiwaya Sensei trained exclusively for a number of years under Tohei Sensei. I've seen videos of Tohei Sensei and his technique is anything but that of a typical Aiki-fruitcake.
Also, wasn't Tohei the direct student of O Sensei, who was challenged by the English camera crew and brought down a guy twice his size to the ground several times ?
Once again, a completely baseless reference, unuseable as an "Aiki fruitcake" example.

Moving on,


If they're unwilling to go farther, then that's their choice. It's not necessarily a lie. It's just not their thing. They practice something differently, and (hopefully) not with the mind set that they can defend themselves.


1) Go farther than what ? Being able to be as effective as Kashiwaya Sensei ? Well there's not a whole lot farther you can go from there, hmm ? If he can drop someone by gently caressing their arm, sounds pretty effective to me ! Like outlined above, this is certainly not a typical skill level of an Aiki fruitcake !
He must've actually participated in some honest practice to achieve that !
And participate he did !

2) Why do you hope that they're not having a mindset of being able to defend themselves ? You know, our society isn't getting any less violent. Besides, there's a certain aura coming off someone who's actually somewhat confident of their ability. When such a person is "interviewed" by a drugged up street rat or a homeless, "hay man got a light ? how about a cellphone ? can I get a ride ?" , they can project that physical into their demeanor and the "interviewee" will most likely go away without ever starting a fight.
This is not baseless theory, this is common knowledge, and also something that I've witnessed several times.


Let the hippies be hippies, if you don't like working with them, then don't, it shouldn't matter to you what they believe aikido is. If they're happy rolling when nage says "roll" then don't criticize that.


This is not the mat, this is an Internet discussion forum.
I can express my opinion here in written form because I have one and it isn't hurting anyone on the mat.


Don't hammer on them because they want to get something out of aikido that you don't want to


And what is that ? Evolving the spiritual side ?
Why do you assume that those of us who study the physical aren't actually doing it for the spiritual ?

I "hammer" on them because they're not getting ANYTHING out of Aikido. What Aiki-fruities get is not spiritual evolvement, it is not physical self-defense, it does not help to preserve the art, and its not even valuable as a dancing skill
You know, I did try some Aikido moves on the dancing floor and, although it certainly turns heads when you kokyunage a girl into unsuspecting bystanders, I did find the long-term results to be rather undesireable.

Charles Hill
05-05-2004, 12:54 AM
As it stands I can maybe request this kind of practice from about 3 other people who I see only now and then.

I think that you should focus on training with these people. Most people who train in combat oriented arts/sports seem to usually have only a few regular partners. If you supplement this training with regular training at an Aikido dojo, try going really slow and asking your partners to do the same. I find that most of my partners who don`t attack correctly are dealing with some kind of fear. When we slow the pace way down and they realize I`m not going to hurt them, most people will clean up their attacks and be more receptive to my requests tomove in a more realistic way.

Charles Hill

SeiserL
05-05-2004, 09:16 AM
IMHO, don't worry about there being too many "aiki-fruities", worry about being one.

We tend to waste more training time complaining, even if its just under our breathe, that others don't do it the way we think they should, than paying attention to our own training.

Qatana
05-05-2004, 09:40 AM
"I "hammer" on them because they're not getting ANYTHING out of Aikido. What Aiki-fruities get is not spiritual evolvement, it is not physical self-defense, it does not help to preserve the art, and its not even valuable as a dancing skill"

And exactly how do you KNOW this, Aleksey?

Matt Molloy
05-05-2004, 09:52 AM
Aleksey Sundeyev wrote.

"You know, I did try some Aikido moves on the dancing floor and, although it certainly turns heads when you kokyunage a girl into unsuspecting bystanders, I did find the long-term results to be rather undesireable.[/QUOTE]"

Let's face it. This is the real reason that post seminar discos are a bad idea.

Cheers,

Matt.

Fausto
05-05-2004, 10:56 AM
Mmmmmm, if you are talking about people who throw uke without touching them or uke who do all by themselves...... you are totally right! even if, you do correctly the technique (with atemi) you can throw someone withot touching him because uke should throw himself to avoid a broken nose.

But unfortunantly, from my personal point of view, there some aiki folks that do aki-ballet.

As far as the spiritual issue, well it is a very important aspect of aikido, if you don't no nothing about it you are not doing aikido..... that's how I thing hehehe.

PeaceHeather
05-05-2004, 11:20 AM
I "hammer" on them because they're not getting ANYTHING out of Aikido. What Aiki-fruities get is not spiritual evolvement, it is not physical self-defense, it does not help to preserve the art, and its not even valuable as a dancing skill


I must not understand... earlier in this thread, I got the idea that an "aiki-fruit", rather than being a refreshing snack for martial artists as I'd originally thought, was someone who only attended aikido lessons for what they perceived to be the spiritual and/or ki side of things.

Then someone else posted that suggestion, and you said no.

Are you, maybe, talking about people who only come to aikido thinking that they're learning deep things, but in fact only using the feel-good aspects to reinforce what they already believe?

I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just trying to figure out what you mean. I can't agree or disagree with you otherwise.

Peace,
Heather

Nick P.
05-05-2004, 11:44 AM
IMHO, don't worry about there being too many "aiki-fruities", worry about being one.

We tend to waste more training time complaining, even if its just under our breathe, that others don't do it the way we think they should, than paying attention to our own training.

Well said.

Chad Sloman
05-05-2004, 12:14 PM
I don't think I've met any of these "aiki-fruities" in my years of training. I can't imagine anybody practicing aikido intentionally to not give honest attacks. I really don't even understand what all of this spiritual talk is about. I always assumed that the sharpening of the spirit came from the physical fruits of labor. That could mean one of two things:

1) I've been incredibly lucky to have excellent instruction, excellent training partners, and attend excellent seminars

or

2) I've been surrounded by "aiki-fruities" this whole time and am one myself without even knowing it!

But I do believe that if somebody is not comfortable with the format, intensity, or instruction at a dojo, they should either cultivate some patience and get over it or go somewhere else. Aikido is not forced curriculum. Maybe even go and try some other martial arts. Aikido is not for everybody unfortunately, even though I think it should be. And not everybody is at a place in their life where they are ready to accept aikido. So maybe it's something that you can come back to later. If you want to fight, cross train in judo, BJJ, or full contact karate. That's what I do because it's fun.

MitchMZ
05-05-2004, 12:18 PM
I think too many people get the mindset that people who are taking Aikido for reasons other than self-defense take an unrealistic approach and don't use any power when attacking, etc. Thats is a generalization. I could be classified as an "Aiki-Fruitie" by many standards; yet when I'm uke I love to attack with conviction; and vice versa. Seeing as I come from a background where sparring and grappling were a part of every practice, both aspects are equally important. But, there has to be a reason why Aikijutsu eventually was considered by many to be more effective than Jujutsu in feudal Japan. Aikido, IMO, seems to be Aikijutsu, or it at its highest levels. I you like technique based stuff more take Jujutsu. Or, try a different Aikido dojo. We should all feel honored that we are even getting to train in these awesome arts. It is definitely easier to be critical than correct.

Bronson
05-05-2004, 12:20 PM
2) I've been surrounded by "aiki-fruities" this whole time and am one myself without even knowing it!

There's a freak on every bus. If you can't find him, it's you ;)

Bronson

Kevin Leavitt
05-05-2004, 12:44 PM
I came from a very, very hard/rigourous karate background prior to study aikido. Did the no holds barred thing a few times. Also graduated from Army Ranger School two weeks prior to my first Aikido class so culturally it was a huge adjustment for me. That was 8 years ago.

I can certainly appreciate you comments regarding aiki fruitie types since I too was very critical of many I studied with.

Where am I today?

After 8 years of Aikido and going on 40 years old... I am still in the Arrmy as training infantry troops for combat. I teach army combatives in my unit on occasion. Train with firearms, jump out of airplanes, do air assaults and all that macho stuff.

I am also a buddhist, vegetarian, and raise my son to not watch tv and violence, he does not play with guns or play "army" or with tanks. I eat tofu about 3 times a week and mostly all organic foods. We have no chemical cleaners of any kind in the house and try and not harm anything that is living. So I quess I also qualify as a fruitie type!

I attribute most of this to the people, the awareness, and "ki" that I have learned through my aikido practice. I learned that there is room for all things, even the seemingly duality of my job and my personal life...they can co-exsist. I guess this qualifies as personal growth.

Probably the biggest thing I have learned is that the dojo is full of people that come from all walks of life, perspectives, abilities, and goals. I no longer really concern myself with being critical over the attack or lack thereof of my partner, only how I am able to work with them. The "fruitiness" that you describe, to me, is not so much a "problem" as it is a challenge for me to work with.

I think when you concern yourself with someone's attitude and become critical of them, that it is because you are focusing on yourself and what you are getting out of the relationship....not with what you have to offer to the relationship. Once I started figuring out that aikido was a two way street and stopped worrying about what I was getting and started focusing on the giving...the fruti issue kinda didn't matter much anymore. Which I think is the point of aikido from my view.

So when I work with some people doing BJJ or the hardcore stuff, I give it back as hard as I can. When I am working with the so called harmony/peace crowd I blend and move gracefully. There is something to be said for both sides of the coin.

Sue Trinidad
05-05-2004, 01:38 PM
I'm brand new, so I may be way off base here. . . but what attracted me to aikido was that it seemed to combine the physical training and the spiritual training/mental discipline.

I'm going to be really disappointed if I've misunderstood this!

shihonage
05-05-2004, 01:41 PM
I must not understand... earlier in this thread, I got the idea that an "aiki-fruit", rather than being a refreshing snack for martial artists as I'd originally thought, was someone who only attended aikido lessons for what they perceived to be the spiritual and/or ki side of things.

Then someone else posted that suggestion, and you said no.


I don't recall saying "no" to such a definition.

I'm brand new, so I may be way off base here. . . but what attracted me to aikido was that it seemed to combine the physical training and the spiritual training/mental discipline.

I'm going to be really disappointed if I've misunderstood this!

You didn't misunderstand.

PeaceHeather
05-05-2004, 02:08 PM
Okay... so, if I understand that your definition of an aiki-fruit (still hung up on the snack image) is someone who only comes in for the spiritual practice... well, I don't understand why that's wrong, if in fact you're saying that it is wrong.

To clarify a bit, I'll perform the techniques, and I'll do my best to perform them well if for no other reason than that my partner needs that from me. But my first priority, if I had to make a list, would be on ki/mental training, then learning how to not hurt myself or my partner, and then the finer points of technique.

Are there people who show up to dojo and don't do anything physical?

Still just trying to figure things out...
Heather

MitchMZ
05-05-2004, 02:13 PM
I think I really agree with Kevin on this one. What is difficult about everything (including martial arts), is that any one thing can be viewed in a thousand different ways. I think the best way to go about it is to not criticize someone's way of practice or views but to go along with it instead. AKA: If they go hard you go hard, if they are soft you are soft. Just like Kevin said. Learning can be had from both sides of the spectrum.

GaiaM
05-05-2004, 02:25 PM
I really appreciated Kevin's post... It is great to know that there are people like you even in the military!
I absolutely agree with everyone who has said that spending energy judging your training partners and wishing they would change is not the most productive response. I don't think of myself as an "aiki-fuitie" - my spiritual belief about aikido is simple: if I train hard and with focus and joy i will enjoy my practice and learn quickly. I don't like to dwell on discussing this - I'd rather train. I find that if I focus on my own energy I can influence people to meet me half-way, and even influence the feeling of the whole class through my enthusiasm and focus.
So I suggest that instead of complaining about "aiki-fruitcakes" you focus on your own energy (whatever that may be). If it is a positive energy, others will follow your lead.
Hope that makes sense,
Gaia

PeaceHeather
05-05-2004, 02:31 PM
I still think aiki-fruit should be the name of a refreshing snack for martial artists. But then, I probably am one, so that's probably why.

Heather, looking around for vending machine

Kevin Leavitt
05-05-2004, 02:41 PM
i always picture them coming in the little gummi bear fruit packets in assorted colors and shapes.

PeaceHeather
05-05-2004, 02:46 PM
YES!! Me too! That is so weird.
I want the blue ones.

Heather

Doka
05-05-2004, 02:47 PM
Mmmmmm, if you are talking about people who throw uke without touching them or uke who do all by themselves...... you are totally right! even if, you do correctly the technique (with atemi) you can throw someone withot touching him because uke should throw himself to avoid a broken nose.

No no no no no! If you don't touch them you don't throw them! If they fall over, then they simply fall over! If they throw themself, then they (not you) throw themself!

But unfortunantly, from my personal point of view, there some aiki folks that do aki-ballet.

Yep, usually doing ki exercises and telling how they do no touch (don't exist) throws!

As far as the spiritual issue, well it is a very important aspect of aikido, if you don't no nothing about it you are not doing aikido..... that's how I thing hehehe.

So you think that Yoshinkan Soke Gozo Shioda Sensei did not do Aikido? :confused: Kancho described ki as mastering Uke's balance (and your own), not spiritual mumbo jumbo!

Chad Sloman
05-05-2004, 02:54 PM
I believe Ledyard Sensei was talking about the systema demo at the last aiki expo where the systema sensei had his uke attack him and he landed atemi to his face knocking him down, then the second time he had him attack and again the sensei landed atemi to his face and knocked him down, then the third time the sensei went to apply the atemi and the uke fell down without touching him. Who threw who? Is this a weak technique? Are these examples of "aiki-fruities"? I don't think so.

Fausto
05-05-2004, 06:15 PM
Mark, you disagree with me, and I disagree with you that's obvious.

First. If you train with Antonio D'Elia Sensei, after he hits your nose BADLY for a couple of times belive me you will take Ukemi to avoid the hit so..... if Tori forces you to throw yourself, because if you don't do that he will hit you strong enough to put your lights out, you WILL take ukemi even if he do not touches you... that's the only kind of "no touch" throws that I belive in, I don't belive in somethings that some so called aikido teachers do or teach such as "Oh my good Sensei is looking at me I must throw myself! :confused: or "I must throw myself in this technique because Sensei told me to do so in this technique" :yuck: or "Even if I'm not forced to take ukemi i must take it" :crazy:

Two. I know that was Shioda Sensei was doing was Aikido we all know that O'Sensei gave him 9°Dan!!!.... what I was talking about is that Aikido is based on two things Daito Ryu and the Omoto Religion.... so, even if for non japanese people is difficult to understand that philosophy unless you are not into it, the spiritual side of aikido is as important as the "physical" part.... AIKIDO is not a sport, sports have no philosophy aikido has it and that's why it is not a sport, even if a Sensei does not teach anything spiritual if he is against competition he is teaching his students a little bit of the spiritual side of aikido...... THAT IT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE OK!, so please don't tell me that I'm saying that the Tomiki Style it's just a sport because it's not maybe they don't have that side of the spirit of aikido but I'm sure they have others.

You are right in one thing, Ki is masternig uke's balance and oneself but.... ki is also the "breath that gives life".... that does not mean that I belive that you can throw someone with "The Ki that comes out of you body" :hypno:

Just my 2 cents.

PeaceHeather
05-05-2004, 08:37 PM
For what it's worth, I've worked with ki for longer than I've done martial arts. I've seen judicious application of ki do some amazing things, primarily in the healing disciplines. I'm in no position to judge whether you can throw someone without touching them, but some of the things I've seen suggest that it could be possible.

Again, just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Heather

Bronson
05-05-2004, 08:59 PM
...you can throw someone with "The Ki that comes out of you body"

I work on corporate jets for a living. There are often several of us trying to work in tight cramped conditions. Many times I or some one else has had something come out of their bodies that "threw" the rest out of the plane :D :yuck: :D

Bronson

James Giles
05-06-2004, 12:23 AM
No no no no no! If you don't touch them you don't throw them! If they fall over, then they simply fall over! If they throw themself, then they (not you) throw themself!!

Isn't that the point of Aikido? Take uke's energy and simply redirect it so that it is used against them?




So you think that Yoshinkan Soke Gozo Shioda Sensei did not do Aikido? :confused: Kancho described ki as mastering Uke's balance (and your own), not spiritual mumbo jumbo!

The spiritual mumbo jumbo allows one to defeat his/her thoughts and achieve a state of no mind. In the state of nothingness there are no thoughts of "which technique am I going to use in this situation etc.?" One just moves with the energy and lets uke defeat himself. OSensei's art moved from very hard in the beginning (Gozo Shioda style) to very soft toward the latter part of his life. Why waste energy if you don't need to? Whether or not uke throws himself, or you throw him should not matter. What matters is that he is on the ground and he did not harm you. Just my opinion.

James Giles
05-06-2004, 12:58 AM
I'm brand new, so I may be way off base here. . . but what attracted me to aikido was that it seemed to combine the physical training and the spiritual training/mental discipline.
I'm going to be really disappointed if I've misunderstood this!

From what I understand, it depends on your particular dojo. Even dojos in the same affiliation can be vastly different on this matter. I am in an ASU school and I am lucky enough to have a Sensei that emphasizes a healthy balance of spiritual/mental/ki training with the techniques (kihon waza).

The cool thing about the spiritual training, is that no one can immobilize or harm you if you are not there. Very neat stuff!

But even if your school doesn't emphasize this, you can probably pick up on it if you seek it out. No need to be disappointed, Aikido is just what you thought it was.

batemanb
05-06-2004, 02:11 AM
Probably the biggest thing I have learned is that the dojo is full of people that come from all walks of life, perspectives, abilities, and goals. I no longer really concern myself with being critical over the attack or lack thereof of my partner, only how I am able to work with them. The "fruitiness" that you describe, to me, is not so much a "problem" as it is a challenge for me to work with.

I think when you concern yourself with someone's attitude and become critical of them, that it is because you are focusing on yourself and what you are getting out of the relationship....not with what you have to offer to the relationship. Once I started figuring out that aikido was a two way street and stopped worrying about what I was getting and started focusing on the giving...the fruti issue kinda didn't matter much anymore. Which I think is the point of aikido from my view.


I wish I had written that.

If you find something you dislike, take a long hard look at it, it is more often a reflection of the same trait you will find in yourself. Learn to work with what you have, good and bad, it may take time but will all help to improve your aiki.

rgds


Bryan

DanD
05-06-2004, 02:14 AM
Nathan, you appear to be unable to distinguish between softness and ineffectiveness.
You put a mishmash of unrelated things into one mumble-jumble of a post, which lacks any semblance of continuity, sense, or point.

Arguing with you would be like trying to explain to a small child why he can't shoot an arrow into the sun. Children still live in their dreams.
.

Sundeyev, you're definitely in the wrong art. Your violent wisdom is flowing from thread to thread....and you even didn’t use "nuke" yet. A bit of the spiritual fruity stuff might balance your language. Give us a break.. :D

happysod
05-06-2004, 03:50 AM
I've actually got no problem with aiki-fruities, which is probably just as well considering I'm in a Ki assoc, or the "hard men/women" of aikido as long as they're honest with themselves on what they're practicing. Where I do have a problem is when their expressed interests diverge from how they're willing to train.

For the aiki-fruities, the assumption that you can go from ground zero victim status to calm master of self defence without going through hard training, pain and an understanding of not only how to deal with aggression but also how to be aggressive is annoying to say the least.

The flip side of the coin is the "hardcore" who expresses an interest in blending and diminishing conflict while practicing every technique with a view to kill (been guilty of this one, although I was more soft core trying to be hardcore, got the mix wrong)

For me, its like food - too much of the sweet stuff (aiki-fruities) is bad for you, too much hardcore muesli is boring and gets you down, just find the diet that suits you.

OT. Aleksey, nice to see you back on form :D

Chris Birke
05-06-2004, 11:38 AM
"Sundeyev, you're definitely in the wrong art. Your violent wisdom is flowing from thread to thread...."

Perhaps then, he is in the perfect art?

Nick P.
05-06-2004, 12:10 PM
<Must...fight...urge..to...ask...oh no!>

Why CAN'T you shoot an arrow into the sun?

Bronson
05-06-2004, 03:16 PM
Why CAN'T you shoot an arrow into the sun?

You can shoot an arrow at the sun but it won't go into it :rolleyes:

Bronson

Erik
05-06-2004, 03:49 PM
Why CAN'T you shoot an arrow into the sun?

It'll cost millions of dollars, and my method of shooting might differ from yours, but this can be done.

Nick P.
05-06-2004, 04:09 PM
I say we form the "AikiFruity Sun Special Interest Group", and get this project rolling! It's mandate could be to put an arrow into the sun by 2010.
Only small children living in their dreams can become members.

drDalek
05-06-2004, 04:21 PM
The opinions from several posters that I should stop whining about the other people in class and concentrate on my own training is pretty dumb.

1) I am trying to up the levels of my own training but other people who have been at it for pretty much as long as I have are unwilling to do this.

2) The things I want to improve, like timing, maai, and unbalancing my uke cannot be practiced on my own.

3) My demands are not insane, for example: I once requested one fellow student who is about 3 months less experienced than me to give me a shomenuchi, as fast and hard as he can, with tracking so that I can try and evade it, not do any technique, just get out of the way. I had to stand and negotiate with him for almost 15 minutes before he gave me what I wanted and this from someone who is a "streetfighting legend" (probably in his own mind, he freezes up terribly when it comes to iriminage and "defeats" my technique with almost comical rock-solid rigidity and then wants to lecture me on how to do it right :D )

Granted I did not evade his first good attack, I had a nicely bruised eyelid for about a week after that but I quickly learned how to get out of the way. The first good attack I did not evade was proof to me that I need to up my training because the usual speed stuff was getting rediculously easy, I was the reincarnation of O-sensei against the usual practice speed we train and this is unacceptable to me.

As I get more experienced I expect the classes to get progressively more complicated and challenging, not easier and easier.

In a way I am probably the biggest aiki-fruitcake ever, you see I honestly, seriously believe this stuff has awesome potential, I want to get as good at it as I possibly can and I truly believe in Aikido, but I temper this zeal with the fact that I refuse to delude myself. This naturally leads to a lot of second guessing but atleast when I am actually finally sure of something I am usually right.

Doka
05-06-2004, 04:51 PM
Mark, you disagree with me, and I disagree with you that's obvious..

Really? I'm not sure that we do on everything, but go on! :)

First. If you train with Antonio D'Elia Sensei, after he hits your nose BADLY for a couple of times belive me you will take Ukemi to avoid the hit so..... if Tori forces you to throw yourself, because if you don't do that he will hit you strong enough to put your lights out, you WILL take ukemi even if he do not touches you... that's the only kind of "no touch" throws that I belive in, I don't belive in somethings that some so called aikido teachers do or teach such as "Oh my good Sensei is looking at me I must throw myself! :confused: or "I must throw myself in this technique because Sensei told me to do so in this technique" :yuck: or "Even if I'm not forced to take ukemi i must take it" :crazy:

I've never heard of Ant d' Who-io Sensei! If he went to hit me in the nose then he better have good ukemi!!!!! evileyes

You say "if Tori forces you to throw yourself" - that is not Tori/Sh'te/Nage throwing you!!! That is you throwing you - a huge difference!!! Why? Because if you didn't throw youself, then something else would have happened!!! To think otherwise is false!!!

To take another example where you extend Ukes balance or joint to maximum, by physical movemet and they fall - now that is a throw!!!!

Two. I know that was Shioda Sensei was doing was Aikido we all know that O'Sensei gave him 9°Dan!!!.... what I was talking about is that Aikido is based on two things Daito Ryu and the Omoto Religion.... so, even if for non japanese people is difficult to understand that philosophy unless you are not into it, the spiritual side of aikido is as important as the "physical" part.... AIKIDO is not a sport, sports have no philosophy aikido has it and that's why it is not a sport, even if a Sensei does not teach anything spiritual if he is against competition he is teaching his students a little bit of the spiritual side of aikido...... THAT IT'S JUST AN EXAMPLE OK!, so please don't tell me that I'm saying that the Tomiki Style it's just a sport because it's not maybe they don't have that side of the spirit of aikido but I'm sure they have others.:

You're saying that the Tomiki Style it's just a sport! :) (Joke)

You are right in one thing,

Oh well, one is better than none. I suppose 22 years is not too much of a waste then!!! :D

Ki is masternig uke's balance and oneself but.... ki is also the "breath that gives life".... that does not mean that I belive that you can throw someone with "The Ki that comes out of you body"

Breath is Kokyu. Kokyu Ryoku is breath power. Kancho talks very physically about these concepts - no mumbo jumbo!!

I am pleased that you don't believe "that you can throw someone with The Ki that comes out of your body" I did have white coated people on stand by!!!!!!! ;)

Just my 2 cents.[/QUOTE]

Just my tuppence!

batemanb
05-07-2004, 02:11 AM
1) I am trying to up the levels of my own training but other people who have been at it for pretty much as long as I have are unwilling to do this.

That is absolutely not a problem. I refer to Kevin Leavitt's quote in my previous post.


2) The things I want to improve, like timing, maai, and unbalancing my uke cannot be practiced on my own.

This can still be done with any uke at any speed. You work with all uke's at all speeds, sometimes slower than you would like, sometimes quicker than you would like. Back to Kevin's quote.


3) My demands are not insane, for example: I once requested one fellow student who is about 3 months less experienced than me to give me a shomenuchi, as fast and hard as he can, with tracking so that I can try and evade it, not do any technique, just get out of the way. I had to stand and negotiate with him for almost 15 minutes before he gave me what I wanted

You asked him to give you an attack as fast as he could, but then weren't happy when it wasn't what you wanted. You then spent 15 minutes forcing/ coercing him to attack you faster than he was comfortable with........ at least, that's how this reads to me, maybe not insane to you...... Refer to Kevin again.


Granted I did not evade his first good attack, I had a nicely bruised eyelid for about a week after that but I quickly learned how to get out of the way. The first good attack I did not evade was proof to me that I need to up my training because the usual speed stuff was getting rediculously easy, I was the reincarnation of O-sensei against the usual practice speed we train and this is unacceptable to me.

What about what's acceptable to everyone else?


As I get more experienced I expect the classes to get progressively more complicated and challenging, not easier and easier.

We all look to that. Everyone develops their understanding at different rates, you may just be a lot quicker understanding Aikido than your contempories. Is it any better when you practice with more senior students?


Regards

Bryan

batemanb
05-07-2004, 02:24 AM
I've never heard of Ant d' Who-io Sensei! If he went to hit me in the nose then he better have good ukemi!!!!!

Mark,

We use atemi to assist kuzushi. When we put an atemi in, if uke doesn't move his head or protect himself he will get hit, everyone knows that, which makes it uke's responsibility to protect themselves (i.e. get out of the way). Depending on when and where the atemi is aimed, it may cause uke to take ukemi as a result. I don't want to smack my uke at all but he has to believe that I will hit him, otherwise it is a pointless action. When I am uke, I have to take an instant view on the atemi aimed at me, if I judge that it will hit me, I move, if I think different, I don't, sometimes I get hit. There are certain people that I know will hit me if don't protect myself, I take the ukemi when needed.

I've not met him but it reads to me like Antonio D'Elia Sensei (it was spelt above but I cut and pasted to be safe ;)) is one of these people, there's nothing wrong with that, sounds like good practice to me.

Regards

Bryan

drDalek
05-07-2004, 02:40 AM
You asked him to give you an attack as fast as he could, but then weren't happy when it wasn't what you wanted. You then spent 15 minutes forcing/ coercing him to attack you faster than he was comfortable with........ at least, that's how this reads to me, maybe not insane to you...... Refer to Kevin again.


I had to coerce him for 15 minutes before he gave me ANYTHING whatsoever, I had to taunt him into attacking me, I did not feel great about doing that but its the only way I finally got him to give me one of his supposed "street attacks"


What about what's acceptable to everyone else?


How about they stop worrying about me and get on with their own training


We all look to that. Everyone develops their understanding at different rates, you may just be a lot quicker understanding Aikido than your contempories. Is it any better when you practice with more senior students?


Yes it is, dont misunderstand though, I like training with rank beginners too, their reactions to certain techniques are often much more honest than what an experienced Aikidoka would do, tensing up at the prospect of taking a fall, letting go of you halfway through a technique, these are all fantastic challenges to work with because they are honest and the kind of thing someone on the street would do.

GaiaM
05-07-2004, 07:45 AM
There are plenty of challenges to practicing with people of all different abilities. I can't imagine TALKING about an attack for 15 minutes instead of training! I might ask an uke ONE time to do something a little differently, but if they didn't get it right away I would just take what they were giving me and challenge myself to do the best technique possible from that attack.
If there aren't many advanced people in your dojo perhaps you should travel to seminars or another dojo where you can work with more experienced folks. Not only will you be able to practice faster and more intensely, but you might learn something from them about the the more subtle challenges aikido can provide.
Good luck!
Gaia

Fausto
05-07-2004, 10:43 AM
Very nice posts the last ones :D .

Mark, I think that Bryan knows what I'm talking about :), he is right, if uke uses atemi and you don't move it is your fault if he hits you, that's why you must take ukemi to avoid the hit.

Antonio Sensei is a San-Dan with 26 years of expirience, he has trained especially under Antonucci Sensei 6°Dan and Savegnago Sensei 7°Dan, both of them direct students of Hirokazu Kobayashi Shihan (O'Sensei gave him the 8°Dan).
He was in the army since he was 19 and he retired when he was about 40 he was a Liutenet Coronel of the Italian Army.
The way he practices aikido is very real and strong, as a matter of fact when I went to italy I looked some dojos and I decided to train with Antonio even if some of the other Senseis that I saw had 4°Dan or above, Antonio D'Elia is a truly Aikidoka and I'm glad to call myself his student.

If you guys (Mark and Bryan) ever go to Rome tell me, and I'll tell you how to get to his dojo...... you won't be disappointed, because he trains in a very real way, trust me.

Mark, what happend with that kind of atemi, on which you must take ukemi is that Tori takes your balance and you must take ukemi..... that's why HE throws you, because even if you don't throw yourself, when he hits you in the face you go down.

Concerning the mumbo-jombo stuff, Antonio is a Doctor (he graduated from de Military Academy), he specialized in Orthopedics (i don't know the right spelling in english ;) )and he also has a degree in Sport Medicine so he really knows how the human body works and during almost all of his explication of every technique he tells you why you can do the technique in a way and not in another due to the human body structure..... so he doesn't belive in mumbo-jumbo neither do I :cool:

:) ..... take care.

NagaBaba
05-07-2004, 11:43 PM
Too many aiki-fruities?

Yes! All ki society dojos and most of aikikai dojos lost completly martial intent, non of instructors is able to develop practical applications if necessery from principles learned in the dojo."New age" styles are deforming practice and are not teaching even basic pronciples.
There is no challenge to instructors to push them out of their comfortably seats.

Dojo storming days are way over.

If, during seminar, I'm attacking seriously with strong attack, black belts are getting angry! What surprise! somebody is actually attacking, what that heck??? Are we not suppouse to do love and harmony? Unification with univers?

No, my friends, todays aikido only PRETENDING to be Budo. Todays aikidoka PRETENDING attacks and PRETENDING techniques. Just like in the movie. Fantasy land.

how sad.

kironin
05-08-2004, 01:28 AM
The opinions from several posters that I should stop whining about the other people in class and concentrate on my own training is pretty dumb.

1) I am trying to up the levels of my own training but other people who have been at it for pretty much as long as I have are unwilling to do this.

2) The things I want to improve, like timing, maai, and unbalancing my uke cannot be practiced on my own.

3) My demands are not insane, for example: I once requested one fellow student who is about 3 months less experienced than me to give me a shomenuchi, as fast and hard as he can, with tracking so that I can try and evade it, not do any technique, just get out of the way. I had to stand and negotiate with him for almost 15 minutes before he gave me what I wanted and this from someone who is a "streetfighting legend" (probably in his own mind, he freezes up terribly when it comes to iriminage and "defeats" my technique with almost comical rock-solid rigidity and then wants to lecture me on how to do it right :D )



Is it funny or sad that I am pretty sure you would not be on here complaining about this if you were in my classes ?

While at the same time others on here are ready to lay out their ignorance by stating all Ki society dojos lack martial integrity and are aiki-fruity.

I think as a teacher it's important to show students to ramp up their training in a mature manner and always be pushing them a little beyond their comfort zone.

Craig
:ki:

Chris Birke
05-08-2004, 04:09 AM
Yeah, there are lots of aikifruities. They like being aikifruities, and it's their right. If there are too many where you are, find a different instructor. Convincing them is your way is not idiotic is extremely difficult. They feel the same about you.

If you can't find any good schools or instructors, you'll have to train yourself. There's a challenge for you.

Frankly, I think the metaphysical expirence of catching a stiff right cross is invaluable. Memento Morii.

aikidoc
05-08-2004, 08:17 AM
I'm in an aikikai dojo and one with a connection to an organization out of ki society. We don't always practice with full on attacks when learning skills. However, we do use atemi to pressure/kyusho points so you damn well better block. Full on attacks are used to demonstrate the martial effectiveness. Aikido is a martial art. One of my students the other night did not feel an iriminage done out of ushiro tekubitori would be effective. He changed his mind when it was demonstrated on him with full intent. I teach aikido as a martial art period.

Kevin Leavitt
05-08-2004, 03:41 PM
what concerns me Wynand is you use words like "coerce" and "taunt" is this really what you are doing???

I wouldn't know if you are whining or not from an email post. I sense that you are frustrated for sure at your growth in aikido and I respect the fact that you want to improve and grow and are seeking people that can help you grow in the way that you want to.

Feel fortunate that you have people to train with. I for one am now in a place where I have no one. I came from a large ASU school and I am now at a military base in the middle of Germany where no one has really heard of aikido. If I am lucky I get a friend twice a month to work with.

I think people want different things from aikido. Some want to learn to be martially effective. Others truly want to experience KI in its purist form of raw blending energy. I think there is room for all this and more.

I would not be honest if I said I haven't had your very feelings or complaints in the past. I would hope that if I trained with you that I could give you the attack and challenge that you are looking for.

I think the thing that is important is that you and the person you are training with are honest in their intentions for mutual cooperation and learning.

I have worked with people that are self absorbed in the dojo. It doesn't matter if they are the frutie type or the hardcore type. (you know the type) the frutie guy that doesn't ever talk to anybody, never smiles unless it is that fake little mona lisa smile, and sits in meditation for 20 mintues, and walks around like he has a rod up his ass and his nose up in the air with that false air of calmness and sophistication. When you work with him....you can do nothing right and he looks with that snooty look of disapproving...all the while you know you can kick his ass in a heart beat.

You also get the same from the guy that comes in with the old gi and hakama that does big breakfalls, struts around like he owns the place, hits you on the head when you are not ready and tells you how ate up you are.

Anyway...my point is, it is not important if they are hard or frutie...just that they come to the mat honest with themselves, with beginners mind, as a person and work with you as best they can. You also owe them the same.

IMHO, if you have that...you have no problems!

DGLinden
05-08-2004, 04:11 PM
Kevin,
Germany is anything but a place where no one 'has ever heard of Aikido'. Go to www.shoshindojo.com and look at the site for Rodgau, Germany. Olaf Schubert Sensei will live up to every fantasy you've ever had for strong Aikido. Or look up a man named Andrew Wilby who is simply unbelievablly strong. I believe he is over by the Schwartzwald, somewhere. And they are only two. German Aikido is tough to the extreme.

Kevin Leavitt
05-09-2004, 06:52 AM
thanks Sensei Linden. I do understand that there is lots of aikido in Germany. Problem is that Rogdau is about 4 hours from me. In addition I have comptemplated going there and probably will in the future.

Regensburg University has aikido, but that is a 45 minute trip for me as well and the times they meet do not work with my schedule.

I was hoping to go over to France when Saotome Sensei was here in August, but we are in the middle of a huge exercise and cannot get away then either!

Thanks for the info. Germany seems like a small country until you live in the farmlands of bavaria and then it seems very, very big and aikido seems very distance!

ranZ
05-12-2004, 03:59 AM
Yes! All ki society dojos and most of aikikai dojos lost completly martial intent, non of instructors is able to develop practical applications if necessery from principles learned in the dojo."New age" styles are deforming practice and are not teaching even basic pronciples.


And how many Ki Society dojos have you trained in? I can understand it's hard to grasp the fruityness of all that, coz if u squeeze too hard, you'd loose all the juice. :P

Just wondering... if we were to meet O'Sensei in post war time, this frail looking old man in the 70's with the long white beard and mustache. Let's say we knew nothing of him, we were invited inside his dojo, sat down and he started mumbling about the universe and waving off that -God knows what- short stick with a tail, throwing out a loud ki-ai and all. Now.. would we classify him as "fruity"?
(*I'm imagining this from that old B/W documentary movie an American made*)

However I can agree that some things are too budo-ish and movie-ish. Still i love fruits coz they're sweet n healthy.

PeterR
05-12-2004, 04:16 AM
Is quince a fruit?

happysod
05-12-2004, 05:26 AM
Peter, unfortunately yes, imagine all the tartness of Rhubarb without any of it's redeeming features - makes a passable brandy though.

Wulan, don't feed the trolls

ian
05-12-2004, 07:49 AM
yes - looking at these web pages there are lots of aikido fruities.

too many? - too many for what?

Doka
05-12-2004, 08:00 AM
(*I'm imagining this from that old B/W documentary movie an American made*)

"Rendevouz With Adventure!"

I think that is what it is called. I have a copy somewhere.

Man! Those clothes! They look more fruity than a big bag of fruity things!!!!

:D

NagaBaba
05-12-2004, 11:45 AM
Now.. would we classify him as "fruity"?
(*I'm imagining this from that old B/W documentary movie an American made*)

However I can agree that some things are too budo-ish and movie-ish. Still i love fruits coz they're sweet n healthy.
This guy had more then 60 years of strong training as a background. And you guys, you want to do the same things after 3 months of practice? Please, be serious.....
Even so fragil, he could kick ass many present 6 dans.....

Aiki-fruitiness come exactly from this point: ppl think that without hard practice, physically and mentally, without going beyond own limits, without suffering and pain, without martial spirit, and simply by imitation what Founder did in his last years of life, you can do aikido.

In reality, Ki society dojos, and very many aikikai dojos don't practice techniques, but kind of healthy gymnastics, social danse. Only part of techniques is done, and in very sloppy way. Locks are non - existing, uke throws himself even before tori apply technique....attacks are adapted to this ridicule level of executing techniques. Noone has intend to hit or even grap tori for real. Almost noone knows how to attack efficently....

misery, my friend, misery!!!!!!

In another thread some complain he wasn't able to throw attacker in reality. It is not surprising. If in the dojo you are not studing mechanics of human bod ,mechanics of throw, how the hell you can throw someone who resisiting??

Doka
05-12-2004, 12:17 PM
In another thread some complain he wasn't able to throw attacker in reality. It is not surprising. If in the dojo you are not studing mechanics of human bod ,mechanics of throw, how the hell you can throw someone who resisiting??

Prawda! (true)

Something here about nails and heads and hitting!!!

The one thing I would say is that I would not lable schools in that way. There are some kick ass Aikikai schools who feel like Yoshinkan dojo in their technique, and then there are those who expect you to walk with them when they try to lead by the hand AND fall over even though you are on balance. That is not the school, it is the teacher!

I have been in Yoshinkan dojo where my balance has not been taken. Taking balance is a major aspect of Aikido, certainly Yoshinkan Aikido. Don't let the few lable all.

But you are right - if you don't train for effective technique you won't have effective technique! It is supposed to be Martial Art!

Na zdrowia!

;)

Richard Cardwell
05-12-2004, 03:27 PM
It's great, how people can find the time to train under every Ki Society sensei for long enough to grasp the whole reasoning behind it all, and be better than Tohei Sensei and his "fruitiness".

I will no longer feed the trolls.

Doka
05-12-2004, 05:19 PM
Richard,

Is that not what I was saying?

I have to say that I have the oppotunity to train Ki Society sooooo near to my home, but I have not! Maybe that is my prejudice!!!

If I go, I will post my feelings!

:ai:

Doka
05-12-2004, 05:21 PM
Oh, I have have trained Ki Society before, BTW!!!

domidude
05-13-2004, 08:20 AM
i think my aikido teacher is great: he explains everything from a practical point of view, no mambo jumbo at all, on the other hand he tells us to work together in harmony as uke and tori.
he sais the parctice of aikido - and the attitude while doing it - should be like young animals playing: they are actually fighting but not hurting eachother, the whole game is preparation for real hunting / fighting. i think it is a very correct way to teach, to me it is the closest to reality...also we do not have much time for ki exercises, or talking much about things... just warm up and technic.. and if we doing something wrong he just shows us why, always making a practical sense.. like: "if you o this or that you loose your balance / you get punched in the stomach...etc"
it all just comes very natural in this dojo (shurenkan, hungary) i dont know any other instructors / dojos yet...

Chad Sloman
05-13-2004, 09:24 AM
ppl think that without hard practice, physically and mentally, without going beyond own limits, without suffering and pain, without martial spirit, and simply by imitation what Founder did in his last years of life, you can do aikido.

Who really thinks this? This is ridiculous. I'm sorry you've apparently had bad experiences, but your sweeping generalities don't ring true in any of my aikido experiences.

MaryKaye
05-13-2004, 09:48 AM
Railing at the world isn't of much practical use; in my experience it doesn't even make you feel better for very long.

If you can't find satisfactory training partners, it seems to me that your practical plans include (a) go somewhere else where you can find some, and (b) train some up to your standards. (a) is quicker but may not be feasible where you are. (b) is very challenging, but if you truly have a good way to practice, other people should eventually be attracted to it. One way to begin, if your dojo allows any "mat talk" at all, is to praise partners when they give relatively good attacks (rather than ranting at them when they don't, which in my experience doesn't work very well--it certainly wouldn't on me). You can also, even in non-talky dojo, try to model the desired behavior yourself.

It's also worth bearing in mind that the problem is almost never really "Too many people want something different than me." Who cares about them? Your real problem is "Not enough people (near me) want what I want" and that's a problem you can work on by example and education.

The diversity of styles and approaches in aikido is a strength, not a weakness, though it can be frustrating when the style you want is not available locally. But if all aikido dojo taught the same there would be far fewer aikidoka, and that would be a loss. And we'd lose the valuable cross-fertilization of comparing different styles.

Mary Kaye

AsimHanif
05-13-2004, 10:28 AM
I would suggest that is NagaBaba wants to experience a real aiki fruity, he make arrangements to train with Kashiwaya Sensei. I'm sure he would very open to letting you attack him.

SmallRock
05-13-2004, 10:35 AM
Does Aikido, more than any other martial art suffer from an overabundance of the fruitier elements?

Do you sometimes feel that you are unable to practice the way that would most benefit you because your intstructor either has to accomodate a large number of granola munching hippies or is one him/herself?



Coming from a facet of aikido that doesn't seem to have a reputation of rampant aiki-fruities (or maybe I'm wrong) I'd like to say something that will probably seem fruity. Your training is dynamic. Your interaction with every type of aikidoka is dynamic. You both create it. If you think you've hit a plateau in your training, check yourself. You're the only part of this training that you can really control. No matter how many hypnosis books you read. No matter how much you think that someone can't teach you anything, they can. You just have to open your eyes and look at the mirror they offer.

Check your norms, open your eyes, take in every situation like there is potential to learn. Otherwise you've wasted your own time making quick judgements and shutting something away into a box.

JMHO FWIW

kironin
05-13-2004, 12:23 PM
In reality, Ki society dojos, and very many aikikai dojos don't practice techniques, but kind of healthy gymnastics, social danse. Only part of techniques is done, and in very sloppy way. Locks are non - existing, uke throws himself even before tori apply technique....attacks are adapted to this ridicule level of executing techniques. Noone has intend to hit or even grap tori for real. Almost noone knows how to attack efficently....

misery, my friend, misery!!!!!!



:rolleyes:

When I read such comments, it only reminds me of a fellow Ki Society student who related his experience of practicing with you a few years ago at an New England area Aikikai seminar. I think it was one with Chiba Sensei visiting. You kept trying to jack with him while doing ukemi, some of it inappropriate to the circumstances, none of it effective against his technique. He found it mostly amusing. You were obviously trying to test him.

Training with martial integrity doesn't have to equate to a hell dojo mentality.

Craig

NagaBaba
05-13-2004, 10:08 PM
:rolleyes:

When I read such comments, it only reminds me of a fellow Ki Society student who related his experience of practicing with you a few years ago at an New England area Aikikai seminar. I think it was one with Chiba Sensei visiting. You kept trying to jack with him while doing ukemi, some of it inappropriate to the circumstances, none of it effective against his technique. He found it mostly amusing. You were obviously trying to test him.

Training with martial integrity doesn't have to equate to a hell dojo mentality.

Craig
Craig,
I think you have no experience with Chiba sensei semiars. EVERYBODY practice as sensei is showing, otherwise you become uke of sensei :D and it can be kind of Satori experience heheheh

and I doubt VERY MUCH that any of Ki society students dare to go to Chiba sensei seminar ROTFL

Just urban legend, dear Kironin, but nice try.

happysod
05-14-2004, 03:32 AM
Szczepan, every time I read your posts I just think, "wow, this man knows his stuff..."

Chiba's seminars, yes, several of our higher dan grades used to often attend his seminars in the UK. I believe some still do, don't know, not that interested.

I've also visited some of his dojos, not really much different from the aikikai dojos I started in. Weapons work was different, otherwise the only difference seemed to be a greater reliance on pain compliance by some students (I repeat some, the higher grades had normally matured). The "hard man" jokes made about this group normally refer to Chiba's own unique take on aikido, rather than something prevalent throughout his group.

Ki "style" vs aikikai and Chiba's "style", again the only real difference is emphasis and the fact we bounce rather than slide. Training intensity is, as in all dojos, normally set by the sensei/type of class and the grade of your uke. I've done more randori in the aiki-fruitie land of Ki than I ever did in aikikai and my wrist no-longer has a permanent bruise as over-familial grabs to the wrist are generally just a training guide rather than the main attack.

Admittedly, I've also had to put up with some of the most god-awful "ki exercises" ever devised by man or beast and don't get me started on the "ki-punch", but there's good and bad in most dojos and you just need to find one you can live with.

(I know, follow own advice and don't feed trolling, I promise this is the last time folks)

PeterR
05-14-2004, 03:43 AM
I remember a nice fire side chat with Chiba a few years ago - he was very mellow, very nice. On the mat he demonstrated strong waza but nothing beyond what I was used to seeing. Frankly I did not find him terrifying.

But then I never found a terrifying Ki-ster either. ;)

happysod
05-14-2004, 03:59 AM
Damn shodokan ninjas, always attacking from the blind side. :D

Strangely enough, I've always heard the guy was very pleasant off the mat as well. Friend of mine met him about 20 odd years ago (possibly longer, I've never managed to find out how long he'd been training) and said he'd always buy his own round. Not bad when you consider how some of "founders" of the smaller associations can act. Still doesn't fully explain his record on wrists though?

Johira
05-16-2004, 06:01 AM
Usually when I find practice is getting too easy, usually when I feel like my opponent is making all kinds of mistakes and isn't attacking me with honesty and intensity, that's usually the point where I am in truth getting lazy with my technique and skipping on the fundamentals. And that always comes back to bite me later.