Emotions on the mat [Archive] - AikiWeb Aikido Forums

Erik

04-26-2004, 05:41 PM

At the dojo where I started they did a lot of exercises related to connecting and feeling your partner. It was a very intimate experience and about the last thing I expected in a martial art class. It didn't terrify me but all that intimacy and connecting with a partner did make me pretty uncomfortable.

Your post also reminds me of a fellow student who was terrified of testing. She literally shook during her 4th kyu test. She came from another school where she was ranked without testing and it was her first test. At the time I thought it was the most courageous thing I've seen on the mat. Some talk a lot of nonsense about being warriors etc., but her doing that test is what courage is about in my opinion.

Anyways, in my case, I just kept showing up and eventually it got easier.

It's hard to remember "compassion" and "serenity" when you're stuck in "OH MY GOD I"M GONNA DIE"

Could you clarify this statement a bit, just in case? If there is something physical going on that makes you feel at risk then maybe you need to step back a bit. I know a lot of places that wouldn't even expect you to do a back roll in your first class. Some do expect it and some even expect forward rolls but your comment on rolling made me want to ask. Your fear might also be there because you are putting yourself at risk in a way you aren't trained for. This probably isn't what's happening but like I said, just in case.

Janet Rosen

04-26-2004, 06:47 PM

Could you clarify this statement a bit, just in case? If there is something physical going on that makes you feel at risk then maybe you need to step back a bit. (SNIP)This probably isn't what's happening but like I said, just in case.
I had the same wondering. There is a lot of stuff that can come up on the mat that is scary, both physically and emotionally. But if there is something specific to the situation that is causing you to have a gut reaction of feeling unsafe, as in not taken care of by the instructors/more senior students, best to really examine it.

Qatana

04-26-2004, 07:46 PM

Heather, my experience was very similar to Erik's, however , this was exactly what i started training to experience! I had to be intimately connected to a bunch of strangers who Really Cared about me, and it was terrifying!
I spent several months having to leave the mat and cry for a while & just jumped right back every time.
It does get more comfortable. I don't know if it ever gets easier!

giriasis

04-26-2004, 09:12 PM

PeaceHeather

04-26-2004, 09:22 PM

For Erik and Janet (and anyone else who worried),

Thank you. No. Soke doesn't intimidate me in that sense, and the two senseis are utterly cool (one of 'em's a real hottie :cool: ). What to say about Soke... this guy is so amazingly good, I've watched him stop uke without touching them... the Deadly Finger Point of Doom... :D (As in, you come at him, he sweeps his arm out and points to one side, or up, or down, and you find yourself following where he points and completely losing your attack. It's amazing to watch.) The entire class is full of laughter, trust, and cameraderie.

Also, Soke would never ever beat up on an uke who couldn't handle what he was dishing out; I've never, ever seen him go beyond a student's capacity. But when his favorite uke is Matt-sensei, and Matt-sensei can take a LOT... it's scary to watch even when you know you're safe.

I observed lessons in this dojo for a couple weeks, to make sure I was in a good place. I was having fun and learning just by watching! And I, expecting to be a fly on the wall and not interrupt things, was surprised and gratified when Soke would step off the mat and explain what I was seeing while the rest of the class, led by both senseis, did their thing.

Even so... I am very hard on myself. I grew up in a household where, um... okay, Mom fit the textbook definition of verbal abuse... so I tend to expect criticism and judgment, and will imagine that it's there even when it isn't. It doesn't help that I was one of those kids who could get straight A's in school with almost no effort. I expect things to work the first time, and when they don't, even though I'm allllll grown up now, there's still that tiny moment of "freakout" that I have to face.

So, the entire thing is mental with me; my marriage counselor, personal counselor, husband, and I are working on the various factors that play into this. (Yes, you heard me, I'm seeing two shrinks simultaneously. I do things like this. It's a GIFT. :rolleyes: ;) )

I made sure that my first lesson was on the one night of the week that Soke does not teach, because I needed to not have that mental hurdle to overcome. As Phil-sensei put it, "You already did the hard part; you came in alone. When I started ten years ago, four of my friends were already on the mat."

So, tonight, my second lesson, was my first with Soke also on the mat, and as it happened everything was as fine as all my observations had led me to think it would... but it was still scary as hell UNTIL I got out on the mat. I'd built it up in my head until I was freaking out... hence "oh my god I'm gonna die."

I've rambled, and lost the ability to reply cohesively to a specific post, so I'm going to break off here and go respond elsewhere.

Heather

PS - For what it's worth, if you feel like reading my latest post to my "introduction", I described tonight's lesson in more detail, and I *did* say I thought I was really courageous to stick it out. I even had fun, once the hairy stuff was over.

Peace, y'all, and thanks.

PeaceHeather

04-26-2004, 09:29 PM

Relax... woooooowoooooooooooooooooooooo phew. Wheee. OK... Relax. =)

Hee hee. Thanks, Chris. Thanks also for the reminder that I'm safe. One trick I have for facing this mental hurdle is to stop looking at it like combat -- 'cause, really, who am I fighting? -- and to look at it instead like a dance class. I've done a little bit of folk and country dancing, so the image works for me. You have a partner, you try not to trip over your own feet or theirs, you laugh when you mess up, you laugh more when you get it right, and next thing you know you're teaching someone else the steps.

Thanks again.
Heather

PeaceHeather

04-26-2004, 09:34 PM

Heather,
Thank you for posting such open and honest feelings. While you might not feel it, your actions demonstrate a great deal of courage and I commend you.

Thank you, Mark. I'm not sure if I'm courageous or just stubborn, but I don't want to let my fears defeat me in this. I'm really pushing HARD to get myself to dojo... in fact, I almost wonder if the only reason I have such strong fear is because I want to face it all at once, rather than gradually over time. If that makes sense.

I only trimmed your advice out of this quote because I didn't want my reply to get too long. I plan on reminding myself of what you've said -- since, after all, the best advice is usually the wisdom that you already know yourself. :cool:

While I appreciate all the warmth and encouragement I am receiving from everyone, I originally started this thread because I wanted to hear from other folks about any emotional things that you might have find yourselves facing on the mat.

Got stories? :cool:

Peace,
Heather

PeaceHeather

04-26-2004, 09:46 PM

Heather,

I'm wondering the same thing as Janet. I have faced a lot of fear of having to learn to roll and breakfall to the point that it was stagnating. In my first dojo, I was thrown into breakfalls on my SECOND day. Not a good course of action. Any how this developed into a lot of fear of going to class. Now almost 5 years later and being in a very supportive dojo (and different one from my first) helped a lot. Please don't think just because "sensei says" that you shouldn't listen to you intuition. Like the others said, listen to your self and your internal signals they might be telling you something.

Jo and Anne Marie,
Thanks so much for your words. On my first day (last week), it was explained that The Mat Is Your Friend and that learning to land well is a good thing, and we started on simple, slow-motion, low to the ground, forward rolls. At one point when I was getting too dizzy, we switched to different footwork things, ways to step and turn and so forth. Everything was taken at a pace I felt comfortable with.

Phil-sensei showed me back rolls after a bit, for variety's sake, but I didn't feel comfortable doing those quite yet, so we didn't. No worries.

Jo, as for the emotional stuff... I don't want anyone to get the wrong impression when I say this... I've wanted to do something with martial arts for a number of years now, and now that I'm in counseling, aikido feels like the next logical step. I don't want people to think that I'm taking all my baggage onto the mat and expecting sensei to solve it -- it's more like, I'm taking the things I'm learning with my counselor and moving them out of my head and into my body, via aikido. Does that make sense? AND I'm doing something I've wanted to do for years.

At any rate, I expected to see at least a few emotions come up, as I "confronted" my partners on the mat, as I got frustrated with my lack of instantaneous progress, and so forth. :cool: I still do expect to see those things; I'm just looking for a: a place to share them, and b: tools to handle them.

Thanks again.
Heather

Ian Williams

04-26-2004, 10:38 PM

I have related this tale in another thread, but I'll post it again here anyway...
I practice JuJitsu, but the point here is the same.

I was asked to go uke for a higher belt who was practicing a series of leg reaps in different stance positions in readiness for a grading. This involved between 30 and 40 leg reaps, one after another. I had had some breakfall training/practice but not a lot, and foolishly said "yes" when asked by the sensei if I minded being uke here.

I probably did a successfull break fall about 50% of teh time, but that still ended up with me being VERY sore by the time I went home, and, I'll admit it, scared and a little in shock. (leg reaps can be substantial throws, and I don't like being thrown backwards at the best of times).

I ended up that night with mild concussion and my back hurt severely everytime i got out of my chair for a week. I was in tears that night after the lesson in the shower because after a few bad falls, I was quite scared. It's my fault for not putting a stop to it earlier and saying I didn't feel comfortable, but thats aussie male macho crap for you. I almost gave up that night. I felt scared, humilated, and down right sore. It's only because I love training so much that I went back the next night and the next etc.

A couple of months down the track, my breakfalls are a LITTLE better, but I would not allow myself to be used in that training situation any more. I would just say no. After all, it's your personal safety and well beingyou need to look after. Don't allow yourself to be put into a situation you don't feel comfortable with.

I guess the point of this rambling is to let you know that even a rough tough aussie bloke can feel shattered emotionally after a training session, and be in tears.. but you can get up! dust yourself off, and try again, if you're really motivated about training!

Robert Jackson

04-26-2004, 10:44 PM

I hate pressing the wrong button and erasing a freaking long post! Anyway as I originally said.

When you fear something you have to do two things. First, look and see if there is something to fear.(you already said there is not). If not you need to look inside yourself and figure out what you are fearing. In aikido this can be numerous things "What if I take the fall wrong", "What if I humiliate myself by not doing the technique properly." or as one of the newest members of our dojo recently said "No one's going to want to work with me anymore". Once you find your answers it's time to face them (by going to the classes you are already doing that.... and as said above that is very commendable.) Just realize everyone was new at one point in time, your Dojocho was a beginner dependent upon his sempai to help and teach him.

I've wanted to do something with martial arts for a number of years now, and now that I'm in counseling, aikido feels like the next logical step. I don't want people to think that I'm taking all my baggage onto the mat and expecting sensei to solve it -- it's more like, I'm taking the things I'm learning with my counselor and moving them out of my head and into my body, via aikido. Does that make sense?

This makes perfect sense. Your "baggage" is a part of you as will be your aikido. Aikido is very philosophical and will probably be a very big contribution to your therapy.

A challenge is always good. With a challenge you do not have the feeling of "Oh another A.... whoopdie freaking do" But you'll get the feeling of "OH MY GOD.... I DID THE MOVE CORRECTLY" which, if you haven't experienced it before will be a great emotion that gives a very good sense of accomplishment. You won't look back and wonder why you did something you were able to breeze through instead you'll look back and see all the work you put into this accomplishment and be able to tell where it went and where it came from. To many people never push nor challenge themselves. To many people never understand what the word accomplishment means. I hope if you were one of those people Aikido will give you a new out look on life and what it truly means to fight and work to get something done.

Well enough of my rambling. I hope I made sense if not.... the original post I accidentally deleted before I hit the back short key was a lot better...... (seriously it was!.... no seriously!!!)

Robert.

shihonage

04-26-2004, 11:28 PM

Thinking "relax!" is not going to help you relax.
"Just relax" is advice often given to beginners.
I really don't know WHY it is given to beginners, because it never helps them.

How can you relax when you don't know which foot goes where and you're intently monitoring your every hand and foot movement ?

You can't.
You can't relax, Heather, but what you can do is continue attending the class.
Just stick with it, and the ups and downs will slowly mellow out and your emotions during class will become more even.

Also, I think you're on the right track regarding the mindset.
Although Aikido is certainly not a dance class, the main point is correct - the techniques will only work when you don't antagonize your practice partner in your head.

Janet Rosen

04-27-2004, 12:04 AM

Heather, if you look at the first aikiweb column by the Mirror, the introduction, you may find the round robin helpful. Yes, anybody who is honest with him/herself is confronting personal barriers and fears on the mat and, hopefully, using the training as a tool (not as therapy, but as a tool for change). People who are not willing to train with that honesty, in my opinion, are the ones that run the risk of becoming unmindful and hurting partners. Gee (she says, scratching her head....) kinda like in life off the mat, too!
FWIW, I think you are on the right track.

cuguacuarana

04-27-2004, 04:17 AM

It sounds like you are confident that you are in the right place, which is a good thing. Your posts on this thread have indicated to me that you are at least self aware enough to recognize that most of these emotions are coming from certain undesirable mindsets you may be carrying. I think you are very brave to be facing these mindsets in this way, and I am impressed at your ability to hash these issues out by thinking about them and posting here. I assure you that you have my support. Here are my suggestions:

Both of the Dojos that I have experienced were very open to varying skill levels and various levels of comfort. In my experience most will respect your need to sit out and chill if you need to. But as many people have said, and as I am sure you are aware, progress comes from confronting and working to resolving these issues. Don't feel like you have to go way beyond your comfort zone right away. instead expect to run into these fears and face them whenever you can. Remind yourself that every time you are afraid, and confront it that it is usually not as bad as your mind thinks it will be, and how great it feels when you jump in and push yourself farther than it seemed you could go. I hope you have experienced the sense of pride and accomplishment that goes along with pushing yourself a little further than you thought you could go. I imagine that it will not take long before you start to feel more comfortable. I reccomment Gakku Homma's book "Aikido for Life," He talks some about what it means to push yourself. it also contains a number of other good lessons. Its easy to read, and great for beginners.

Good Luck!
Austin

SeiserL

04-27-2004, 07:53 AM

Welcome to the martial arts, the place where you confront your worst attacker, yourself. Yes, IMHO this is normal.

Try to pay attention to the negative fantasy you are running in your head. What is the visual movie? What is the auditory dialog? Your body/emotions are not responding to Aikido, but your fantasy about Aikido. Change you mind and you'll change your emotions.

Relax, breath, get out of fantasy land, and enjoy yourself.

wendyrowe

04-27-2004, 08:02 AM

I've definitely had that "Oh my God, I'm going to die" feeling on the mat. I know I'm not REALLY going to die -- but the adrenalin really gets pumping when I'm called on to do randori with Sensei or when I'm swapping throws with one of the very skilled and fast students. When I started aikido, that feeling was overpowering. But as I get more used to people coming at me and as my aikido reactions get more ingrained, I find I am able to empty my mind of expectations and really use aiki.

As others have said: it gets better, just keep at it!

jxa127

04-27-2004, 09:46 AM

Heather,

I'm quite sure that most of us, at one time or another, been scared on the mat. For quite a while I had to deal with the fear that I couldn't keep up with the rest of the class. I'm overweight and not in as good a shape as a lot of the folks I train with.

To some extent I still dread our regular class warm-up period where we do a lot of ukemi and I get really winded. It used to really cause me anxiety when I anticipated that part of the class. Now I'm learning to look forward to that particular part of class. It's a chance to really work on problems that I have with ukemi (still have, after more than four years of practice). It also feels pretty good to get winded and really exert myself.

One key change to my attitude came when I realized that (1) everybody has something that they struggle with in aikido (most of us have several things we struggle with), and (2) my instructor and classmates don't think poorly of me or judge harshly as long as I give it my best shot. They feel, like I do, that partners with different ability levels are a blessing to work with.

Just some thoughts.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale

04-27-2004, 10:34 AM

As another big tough male, I also would like to encourage you to keep up your efforts. As Drew said, we all have our problems. I'm 42, and have a nasty habit of smoking. About a week ago on a thursday I was training for two hours with a group in the area that trains VERY hard. I had pretty much exhausted myself, and came pretty close to feeling that I was on the verge of some kind of physical collapse (I don't know, heart attack, angina, simple exhaustion, something...). It was pretty scary for me there for a while. But I made sure I trained with my regular group on saturday, another 3 and a half hours. I got through it...and for most of the classes, didn't even think about it. Mostly it hits between the 2nd and 3rd classes...do I push on, do one more...then again before some free-style with the 4th dan after the last class...do I try to take ukemi for him when I'm this tired...

Each time I've made the choice to push a little more, my practice gets a little better, and so far, my fears have never been realized. Limits are there to be pushed. Do it carefully, under competant supervision...but do it.

The intensity of the relationships on the mats can be very intimidating to both men and women. Its a strange thing...but I've found by facing it I'm better able to face other things...a girlfriend with cancer, a father with alzheimers...all kinds of things.

I hope you can keep training.

Ron

PeaceHeather

04-27-2004, 12:59 PM

I guess the point of this rambling is to let you know that even a rough tough aussie bloke can feel shattered emotionally after a training session, and be in tears.. but you can get up! dust yourself off, and try again, if you're really motivated about training!

*snrrk*

Okay, I now have this image of whatsisname that played Crocodile Dundee in the movies... gi, hakama, leather hat, scruffy beard. :D

Some days I love living in my head.... strike that. I LOVE living in my head. It's very entertaining here. :cool:

Anyway, thank you for your story, and for the reminder to only push past what I *think* my limits are, as opposed to pushing past my real, safe limits.

Heather

PeaceHeather

04-27-2004, 01:28 PM

Robert: Yes, you made perfect sense; thank you for reminding me of something I already knew. (A favorite quote of mine, from a book by Richard Bach -- "Isn't it amazing how often we already know the answer, if we just ask ourselves the question?")

Thinking "relax!" is not going to help you relax.
"Just relax" is advice often given to beginners.
I really don't know WHY it is given to beginners, because it never helps them.

How can you relax when you don't know which foot goes where and you're intently monitoring your every hand and foot movement ?

You can't.

Er, um... actually, I can. What I never got around to saying in my intro is that I'm turning 32 at the end of May, and I've done enough work in both mental things like counseling, and physical things like massage and chiropractic (as a patient) that when someone says "relax" I often can take a deep breath, release the muscles that are tight, and flow a little bit better. It doesn't last long, granted, especially if my mind is all worked up, but up to a point, that reminder really is helpful to me.

You can't relax, Heather, but what you can do is continue attending the class.
Just stick with it, and the ups and downs will slowly mellow out and your emotions during class will become more even.

Thanks for this! As it is, I'm miffed that a weekend injury, which I aggravated yesterday, is going to keep me off the mats till next Monday. I'm still going to go to dojo, because I've been surprised by how much I learn by watching and listening, even if I can't participate. (Heh, also, I'm not participating so there's no intimidation getting in the way of my learning.)

Janet -- yup, read both columns by The Mirror, loved them... in fact, they helped make the decision to become a member on this forum.

Austin, thank you. I just hope I don't become the mighty brave aikidoka on the forum, while still being the screaming white belt newbie on the mat. :cool:

Lynn, oh trust me -- I'm a-listening. Still trying to figure out where all of it comes from, but definitely listening. That is a large part of *why* I started aikido in the first place... and why I chose aikido. Listening inside, being compassionate toward myself as well as my partners, all of that forms part of my personal spirituality right now. I hope to keep it and to become more skilled at it.

Drew, thanks for your story also. I'm not overweight, but I'm neither as strong nor as flexible as even the rest of the white-belts right now, since they all have several months of training on me. On the other hand, I'm nowhere near as ticklish as my fellow white-belt who was there last night. He's a youngun, teenaged, and really skittish about being touched in general -- in pressure-point technique he'll leap out of the way before you even get your hand in contact with him. It's kinda fun. :p

Each time I've made the choice to push a little more, my practice gets a little better, and so far, my fears have never been realized. Limits are there to be pushed. Do it carefully, under competant supervision...but do it.

You know, Ron, it's getting to where I look forward to reading any post with your name on it. Your advice has yet to NOT be solid and exactly in line with the things I need to hear. I'm not into the gung-ho "just do it rrrargh" model of learning -- hearing you say "push your limits CAREFULLY" makes all the difference.

I hope you can keep training.

At this point, I alternate between having so much fun I want to go back, and being so grimly determined not to let my fears beat me that I refuse to stay away. So there you go. :D

Thanks, everyone. Now, who else has a story?
Heather

Ron Tisdale

04-27-2004, 01:53 PM

Heather,

Osu!

Thanks for the kind words. They were actually needed just now.

Ron

skyetide

04-27-2004, 01:59 PM

Heather,

I can relate. You are basically forcing your body to do things that seem very unnatural and dangerous. I hope that you are taking baby-steps with your ukemi…rolling from your knees, etc. I experienced panic with rolls, breakfalls and especially dive rolls (still have not gotten over those. It’s like my mind is asking my body to go against instincts of self preservation by throwing myself on the ground. Someone may as well be asking me to jump in a fiery pit than ask me to dive roll…and then saying “relax, relax”. :eek:

My emotions have ranged from fear (literally shaking) to utter frustration because I can’t get a technique right. It’s hard to manage those feelings and “just relax” as people always tell me. Frustration also comes when I constantly compare myself to other students and to my own high expectations. This allows my self-criticism to overtake my ability to appreciate where I am and how far I really have come. It sounds like you have a touch of this as well? I wish I could give you a quick solution. It is something that I continually work on by being conscious of what I am feeling and by trying to calm my mind and just keep moving. I also think “get over yourself” sometimes, which lightens my mood. Don’t forget to laugh at yourself sometimes. :p

The other thing I wanted to touch on is what you said “I don't want people to think that I'm taking all my baggage onto the mat and expecting sensei to solve it –“ I totally understand. I thought I was joining the dojo for strength and balance in my life. I thought it would be a place of solace where I could escape stresses. (true, but…) What happened with me is that Aikido sort of magnified any problems that I faced outside the dojo, but it also gave me the strength to face them. The problems you face outside the dojo are really the problems you face within yourself, so they inevitably come into the dojo with you.

I remember a seminar taught by Sato Sensei where he was demonstrating a technique on a student and wanted to make the point that one faces the opponent straight on. He grabbed the guy’s gi and pulled his shoulder square as he said “you must face your reality”. That hit me hard and from then on I have tried to do that within the dojo and in my life. So you are fearful. Do you fear injury? Do you feel people judging you? Do you fear failure? So? What do you do next? Roll from the ground so there is very little chance of injury. Build it up slowly. What else is part of that reality? What are your strengths in Aikido? Your strengths are also part of your reality. I think that when we face pain in any form we have two basic choices…to stagnate or to move through. Which are you doing? If you are moving through it, however slow, that is good. Give yourself credit. I agree with the other posts that it takes courage to even take part in class, to move through fear, to seek out answers as you are doing now. I know it doesn’t feel courageous when you are filled with panic at the thought of throwing your body into a roll. Don’t focus on your weakness though, focus on moving through and on what you have accomplished. Of course, I know this is easier said than done. I wish you the best in your search for answers, and in your Aikido!

PeaceHeather

04-27-2004, 04:42 PM

Tonya,

Wow... thanks so much for this reply. Too much to comment on, so I'll just say "wow" and "thanks" again...

Wow. Thanks! :cool:

Heather

GaiaTS

04-27-2004, 10:27 PM

Hi Heather and All,

I want to continue the discussion about the benefits of a challenge. I can't figure out how to quote things so I'll just assume you know what I'm referring to...

Like you, Heather, I am someone who has always been able to achieve things like high grades and praise with very little effort. Many things I do I pick up quickly and my personality helps people to trust my ability and commitment. Aikido is different. While I know my Aikido is getting stronger all the time, this improvement only comes though dedication to training and LOTS of hard work. No matter how much I want to be good at this art, no matter how many friends I make and how friendly and responsible I am, my physical ability will not magically appear overnight.

Realizing this has helped shape my whole outlook towards myself and my life and to love aikido even more. I don't know if part of your fear comes from not knowing how to "do" aikido and/or not "getting it", so I'm not sure how relevent this is for you. But regardless, perhaps it would be useful to remind yourself that the goal of aikido training should not be to master the art because it will never happen. I really believe that I will never get to the point where I am not confused, scared and frustrated at times.

So enjoy the path you're on, but don't take it TOO seriously - there will always be more to learn and the best you can do is to give 100% to your training and remember to smile :-)

Ok, that's my two cents worth. I think this is a great thread... Good enough to warrent my first post to this forum ;-)

As for me, I have never felt "fear" on the mat, but plenty of other emotions come floating my way. A lot of times they are positive ones: happiness, love for my fellow students and our sensei, and most of all appreciation for the opportunity to be a part of this aikido community. Sometimes my ego jumps in with feelings like "you could have done that better" or "why didn't Sensei comment on how well I was doing that ukemi?" But the intensity and joy of training usually banishes these feelings in a hurry. So don't forget to acknowledge the positive emotions too. And keep training!

In the spirit,
Gaia

----------------
“Life is growth. If we stop growing, technically and spiritually, we are as good as dead.”
--O Sensei

jxa127

04-28-2004, 08:37 AM

Hey Tonya, great post!

I remember something else that Sato sensei demonstrated at the Eastern Region camp I attended last September.

He was spending most of the day on exercises related to randori. He demonstrated that getting caught up with one attacker, or lingering to watch the effects of your beautiful throw makes you vulnerable to the other attackers.

He then pointed out the parallel between what happens on the mat, and life in general. When life gets overwhelming, and we have multiple issues to contend with, we need to deal with each, let go, and move on. We need to let go of our fears, let go of our pride, and let go of anything else that keeps us from moving forward.

I thought that was a good message. It is probably not a universal, overriding, be all and end all of personal philosophies, but it's a nice way to look at things.

Regards,

PeaceHeather

04-28-2004, 10:41 AM

Gaia, thanks for the reminder. Certainly the fun I had on Monday helped to banish everything else that was going on. I just need to learn to trust this new space, and these new people, and see them as "mine".

My big fear, I think, is of looking stupid and being judged by my current ineptitude and inexperience. A secondary fear is of landing on my face on the mat. :) Both will be faced over time, I'm sure.

Drew said:
He demonstrated that getting caught up with one attacker, or lingering to watch the effects of your beautiful throw makes you vulnerable to the other attackers.

He then pointed out the parallel between what happens on the mat, and life in general. When life gets overwhelming, and we have multiple issues to contend with, we need to deal with each, let go, and move on. We need to let go of our fears, let go of our pride, and let go of anything else that keeps us from moving forward.

It's very Buddhist. But then, I'd expect that -- it seems like even aikidoka who aren't Buddhists seem to really line up well with those principles: take responsibility for your own actions, leave responsibility for others' actions where it belongs. Be compassionate. Connect. Let go easily. Avoid shoving things away and grasping them tightly, whether you're working physically, mentally, or emotionally. Remain centered.

I'm working on all those things, on and off the mat.
Heather

Bronson

04-28-2004, 11:12 AM

take responsibility for your own actions, leave responsibility for others' actions where it belongs.

We were talking about this last night. Aikido training has helped to strip away my excuses. I now can no longer blame the difficulties in my life on other people or events. Don't get me wrong, I still try ;) but I'm finding it harder and harder to believe those excuses like I used to.

Bronson

PeaceHeather

04-28-2004, 02:39 PM

Bronson, I hear you, man. Sometimes I really dislike being in counseling -- it refuses to let me hang onto my illusions... *sigh*

:cool:

Heather

PeaceHeather

05-03-2004, 02:22 PM

Hey you Americans...
Remember the old donut commercials, with the tired-looking baker who kept saying, "TIme to make the donuts..."

Well, it's Monday. Time to go to dojo. :cool:
Heather

Robert Jackson

05-03-2004, 06:47 PM

My big fear, I think, is of looking stupid and being judged by my current ineptitude and inexperience. A secondary fear is of landing on my face on the mat. :) Both will be faced over time, I'm sure.

As I said just remember everyone was new a one point and time. Last august I took my first step into the dojo.... A year, or so before that one of my sempi's took his first step into the dojo.......uhm 20+ years before that Sensei took his first step into a dojo. We are all beginners. Just remember noone judges a beginner on their ability... but on the courage to go to class.... and you already passed :D....

I realize this is easier to say than do.... but hey sometimes I like the easy rode :).

PeaceHeather

05-04-2004, 11:46 AM

Last night, I got CLOTHESLINED! Augh!

More on this after lunch.
Heather, mainly venting for its own sake

Bronson

05-04-2004, 01:38 PM

Last night, I got CLOTHESLINED! Augh!

Irimi nage?

Bronson

PeaceHeather

05-04-2004, 02:51 PM

Let's see...

A lot of our class are college students nearby, and this week is finals week, so it was myself, one other guy in for his first lesson, a blue-belt (er... whatever the next kyu up from the bottom is... 5th?), Phil-sensei, and soke.

Since class was so small, soke decided to focus on basics, like ki exercises. Almost everything we did was ki-related, ending with a few of the simpler wrist locks performed while trying to remember to use flowing motion and extend ki, and keep the strain and muscle tension out of the picture.

So. At one point in class, soke asks me to demonstrate for the class (uh-oh) and I'm walking back and forth across the mat while he talks about motion, and how to maintain a ki extension when moving, so that, if you're out on the street minding your own business, and someone does, say, *this*...

Insert clothesline. Followed by thud. Did I mention I don't know backfalls yet? On the other hand, did I mention our mats are the softest in town? Still, thuddage occurred. I'm a little sore today. My chiropractor is going to have to start giving me bulk discounts if this keeps up.

Instant emotional response! WHAM! Holy cow! I've got a full spectrum of everything from "ouch" to "hey" to "SCARY!!" to "you evil b*stard" roaring through my head, mostly ruled by "how could you DO that to me?" :sorry:

*sigh* Get up, slowly, go to edge of mat. Fight tears. Take deep breaths. Not really hearing much of his explanation of what to do with it, something about how if you just keep walking you're actually okay, because you move your ki through the incident and let it carry you, or something like that.

Start walking again. Clothesline. Instinctively grab Evil-B*stard-soke's arm as it comes in and keep walking. Tow EB-soke across mat like he's barely there. So there, EB-soke.

Break up into partners again, proceed to do still more ki tricks (which apparently I've got a knack for, or something, or else I've just had outside help from my other non-martial studies). Get sympathetic looks from partner while I calm down. Impress partner once we actually get to the ki stuff. Giggle occasionally. Say "dude" when I notice partner on floor, with more or less zero effort on my part. The Force is strong within me, apparently.

After class, learn from Phil-sensei that soke will do stuff like that, at random, to just about everybody sooner or later -- usually sooner -- and that the point seems to be something about whether you can swallow the ego and keep coming back to learn, or whether you let that drive you off the mat and out of the dojo; or, maybe it's to see how well you handle the unexpected, or maybe it's something to do with how you handle emotions on the mat, or... something.

*deep breath*

So, at this point, I'm a little sore from the unhappy landing, but nothing too bad really. My brain is going non-stop and checking in with my ego, and my vulnerable side, and making sure that we can accept this as a lesson without getting sucked into tolerating abusive behavior, etc. etc.

Got home last night and thoroughly confused my poor husband as I went from sounding ridiculously proud of myself to bursting into tears as I remembered how *freaking* scary the experience was at the moment it happened.

I still want to go back tomorrow for the next lesson... so, um, I dunno. I think I'm still processing.

Any thoughts, folks? Input from fellow EB-senseis is especially sought. :cool:

Thanks,
Heather

Bronson

05-04-2004, 03:01 PM

I've posted in your intro thread.

Let's just sum up my feelings on this with :disgust: :mad: :grr: evileyes
Bronson

PeaceHeather

05-04-2004, 03:09 PM

Um, yeah, that's about half of what I experienced...
Heather

Ron Tisdale

05-04-2004, 04:16 PM

If you're really interested in my opinion email me at the address in my profile. I'm not interested in speaking about it in public.

RT

PeaceHeather

05-04-2004, 04:33 PM

It no longer matters, Ron.

I've just gotten off the phone with Mr. Burdine, and after trying to ask him why he did this, he first said that he held me on the way down, and then suggested that aikido "was not for me". He suggested I try other dojos in town, and when I said that I wasn't interested in other arts but in aikido, he then said that he doesn't hurt his students, that I "have to learn to deal with it", and that he's not going to put up with me calling all the time. Then he hung up on me.

"All the time." I called once or twice a few weeks ago to arrange a time to meet him at the dojo, and have just called to ask why he would do this to a beginning student. Now, apparently, I've been asked not to come back to the dojo.

So never mind, but thanks.
Heather

SeiserL

05-05-2004, 09:06 AM

Yep, sounds like its not a match. You and that specific Dojo that is, not necessarily you and Aikido. Keep looking and keep training. Best of luck.

PeaceHeather

05-05-2004, 10:05 AM

Thanks much, Lynn.

Yeah, this whole thing hurt a lot, and I'm still feeling pretty rotten.. but I can't let go of a few things:

1. As a student, I have a right to ask questions. Likewise I have a right and a responsibility to take those questions to the sensei. (Er, don't I?)
2. Isn't it a little presumptuous to say that "aikido" is not for me, as opposed to "this dojo"?

*sigh*
I am looking, and I've found the local Aikido Club on campus, and since they're meeting tonight, I'm going to go there instead of back to this dojo.

May the force be with me... :rolleyes:
Heather

jxa127

05-05-2004, 10:14 AM

Bravo Heather, Bravo!

Your decision to confront the "soke" about his behavior was one of the healthiest actions I've read about for a long time!

I hope you don't give up on aikido. There are good schools and good instructors out there.

Even with the best instructors, you will probably run into conflicts. However, a good instructor will work with his or her students to resolve conflicts in a healthy manner. That has been my experience.

Good luck, and keep us posted.

Regards,

jxa127

05-05-2004, 10:19 AM

Yeah, this whole thing hurt a lot, and I'm still feeling pretty rotten.. but I can't let go of a few things:

Don't feel too bad. You did the right thing, in my opinion.

1. As a student, I have a right to ask questions. Likewise I have a right and a responsibility to take those questions to the sensei. (Er, don't I?)

Most emphatically, YES!

2. Isn't it a little presumptuous to say that "aikido" is not for me, as opposed to "this dojo"?

Again, yes. The guy did not treat you well and then blames you for being upset about it. That's pretty stupid behavior.

*sigh*
I am looking, and I've found the local Aikido Club on campus, and since they're meeting tonight, I'm going to go there instead of back to this dojo.

May the force be with me... :rolleyes:
Heather

Excellent. Don't look back either.

Good luck!

philipsmith

05-05-2004, 10:30 AM

After class, learn from Phil-sensei that soke will do stuff like that, at random, to just about everybody sooner or later -- usually sooner -- and that the point seems to be something about whether you can swallow the ego and keep coming back to learn, or whether you let that drive you off the mat and out of the dojo; or, maybe it's to see how well you handle the unexpected, or maybe it's something to do with how you handle emotions on the mat, or... something.

Sounds like the only ego problem is "Sokes" otherwise agree with everything Drew has said.

PeaceHeather

05-05-2004, 11:11 AM

Drew, Philip, thanks.

God, next time I need a group hug I know where to come, yes? :)

I have one concern left.
This is the Internet, and you're getting only one side of the story, filtered through all my viewpoints and emotions. Is it possible that I've got it wrong, and this is a legitimate test to see how well I handle the unexpected?

I just don't want to find out, in another dojo a few months down the road, that I really am the one with the problem.

Thoughts?
Heather

Wayne

05-05-2004, 11:24 AM

Hi Heather,

In my opinion, Soke was out-of-line both clotheslining you without warning and telling you to quit calling. I agree with the earlier poster about the problem being with Soke.

As far as only hearing your side of the story... There are many threads in this forum that talk about how beginning students are to be cherished, guided, supported, helped, etc as they are beginning their aikido journey. Also, every senior student was once a new student. That has been my experience with aikido as well.

A case can also be made for a rougher, tougher style of training - along the line of "this is a martial art, after all." That said, it may be a question of what you are personally looking for. If you want to be the baddest aikido dudette, then find a rough, tough martial art or dojo. Testing your willingness to endure such treatment does NOT sound supportive and helpful (to me).

I haven't trained in a large collection of dojos although my dojo has about 10 (?) frequent instructors and they are all good, in their own way. To end this rambling post, I will also encourage you to check out a different dojo.

Enjoy, and keep practicing,
Wayne

Robert Jackson

05-05-2004, 11:35 AM

This is the Internet, and you're getting only one side of the story, filtered through all my viewpoints and emotions. Is it possible that I've got it wrong, and this is a legitimate test to see how well I handle the unexpected?

This is the internet and if he wanted to share his side of the story he's welcome to... However I personally can't see how, or why you would "test" a beginner like that. He was wrong in the treatment he did. As a teacher he takes up the responisibilty of helping beginners who don't know how to take ukemi safe, knowing this and knowing you haven't done back falls he "clothes lines" you unexpectedly... That is wrong..... Pretty cut and dry to me...

Bronson

05-05-2004, 11:41 AM

A case can also be made for a rougher, tougher style of training - along the line of "this is a martial art, after all."

Even the people I know who train like this (in other arts) bring/teach their newbies up to that level. They never expect them to just suddenly be skilled martial artists.

Having gone through something similar I'm very happy that you found out about this early :) , and at the same time pissed that you had to go through it at all :grr:

Bronson

Bronson

05-05-2004, 11:47 AM

knowing this and knowing you haven't done back falls he "clothes lines" you unexpectedly... That is wrong..... Pretty cut and dry to me...

Oh yeah, don't forget she was recovering from an INJURY at the time. Again, :grr:

Ok, time to focus on the positive.

Please let us know how the Uni. club visit goes.

Bronson

PeaceHeather

05-05-2004, 11:56 AM

Positive things...

I've gotten responses, plural, from not one but two people from this club. In addition to the "cool, come on over" kind of response, I asked about questions and so on, and received this:

You'll get tired of us. We are all undisciplined blabbermouths here.
Thankfully we have Wendy Whited Sensei to relegate the difficult
questions to and she never leaves anyone out in the cold, even the most
stupid of us have a proof of that :). So, you are covered, I hope.

So there we are.

Wendy is a 6th-dan from Illinois, who accepts the Purdue club when they do road trips up to her dojo, conducts the testing for the dojo, and so forth.

Heather

MaryKaye

05-05-2004, 12:20 PM

I would think that the #1 prerequisite for a teaching style that involves pushing people into things they fear is a very carefully honed knowledge of the student's actual capabilities, so that you push them to do things they *can* do and build their confidence. If the teacher pushes the student to do things they can't do and they get hurt it's completely counterproductive.

My sensei called me up Monday night and said, "Let's try something new. Ushiro dori at speed, please." I was apprehensive, because I'd never tried taking a completely unknown throw at speed before; but he was right, I could. Afterwards he said that he'd been watching my ukemi carefully and knew that I was up for it. It was a great experience, very exhilirating.

For me personally, if I don't feel the kind of trust that let me make that attack even though I was scared of what might happen, I can't really commit to practice and might as well not bother.

Mary Kaye

PeaceHeather

05-05-2004, 12:35 PM

For me personally, if I don't feel the kind of trust that let me make that attack even though I was scared of what might happen, I can't really commit to practice and might as well not bother.

I agree with your statement -- and that's exactly why I'm questioning myself.

I *do* have trust issues. It takes courage for me to come onto the mat. Something like what happened, however minor (in the sense that I'm a little stiff but not broken or anything), really throws me off-balance mentally and emotionally.

If you were a sensei, and had a student who was struggling with stuff like this, how would you push them in this area? How would you test them? Is this just a test gone wrong?

Heather

PeaceHeather

05-05-2004, 08:09 PM

Well, just got back from observing the aikido club... and I was able to ask lots of questions and get answers that satisfied me for the most part.

So, probably this Monday, or else Mon. the 17th I'll start -- they're located in the campus sports center, and there's a membership fee there that is broken down by semester. No sense paying $40 for spring semester, when it ends in two weeks.

In short, they're willing to go as slow as I need, and their lead student expressed an interest in doing more with ki exercises over the summer, too.

This could be good.
Heather, hopeful

Largo

05-06-2004, 12:45 AM

I'm glad you're out of there. It is one thing to test someone's reaction to surprise, but they should at least have the tools and the possiblity of handling the test. It doesn't take much skill to do something to someone who isn't experienced.

p.s.It's usually a good idea to stay away from people who call themselves 'soke'. (check out koryu or furyu.com if you want some backround on the term)

PeaceHeather

05-06-2004, 09:56 AM

I've gotten emails and privte messages about that, and I agree. It's a shame, because I think he actually does know pretty good aikido. All of his students are good people. Honestly, annoying as the whole "10th dan/soke" thing is, I could care less about that; it's his personality specifically that believes that his behavior was not only acceptable, but not open to question.

Heather

Peter Goldsbury

05-06-2004, 11:05 AM

Hi all,

I'm not sure whether to put this in the Training thread, the Spirituality Thread, or what, so I'm putting it here.

I can't believe how worked up I am getting over attending my next aikido lesson. I am really scared! Last week was frightening, but I managed, although I was nauseous from the rolls (yes, sensei DID let me stop whenever I needed to), in tears at one point for no definite reason, and so on.

Tonight, my lesson will be with Soke instead of the student Senseis who teach on Wednesdays, and I am so intimidated by that thought that I can hardly think straight.

Does anyone else ever encounter this? Er, I should rephrase - I'm sure I'm not the only one who goes through this, but I need some reassurance now. What emotions come up on the mat for you, personally; how do you deal with them?

It's hard to remember "compassion" and "serenity" when you're stuck in "OH MY GOD I"M GONNA DIE". :rolleyes:

Help.
Heather

Hello Heather,

I have a very basic question. Why are you doing aikido? Is it for self-defence, or to make yourself stronger?

I was once a beginner like you are, and I often wondered whether I would get through the next lesson. My initial classes were just like learning to ride a motorbike: sheer panic. But you get through the initial lessons. You survive, and feel good and take the next lesson and the next etc.

Looking at yourr subsequent posts, I think you have no grounds whatever for questioning the way your teacher did the techniques when you were uke. If clothes-lining irimi nage is the rule in your dojo, then you take ukemi fron clothes-lining irimi-nage, or find another dojo.

In my own dojo there is a lady who has been training regularly for the last two years. She is about 50, is divorced, and has an autistic son, whom she brings to the dojo. He sits and watches his mother training. As the chief instructor I regularly ask her to take ukemi, when I instruct in our basic classes. But I also have an eye to her training and occasionally deliberately do techniques for which she has never learned ukemi. She does the ukemi very well, but I can see that she wonders quite how she managed.

I have never clothes-lined this student from irimi-nage, but if I did, as her teacher I think she could take the ukemi: it is my call. But I am her teacher and I am deliberately trying to take her to a level beyond which she thinks she is capable of. Often she fails, but occasionally she achieves it—and then there is a joy that keeps her coming back for more.

At the beginner level in aikido, you have to persuade your body to accept the mat and your partners: it is that simple. If you do not, you cannot progress.

Best regards, and feel free to PM me if you think it appropriate,

Sue Trinidad

05-06-2004, 12:22 PM

I have never clothes-lined this student from irimi-nage, but if I did, as her teacher I think she could take the ukemi: it is my call. But I am her teacher and I am deliberately trying to take her to a level beyond which she thinks she is capable of. Often she fails, but occasionally she achieves it—and then there is a joy that keeps her coming back for more.

At the beginner level in aikido, you have to persuade your body to accept the mat and your partners: it is that simple. If you do not, you cannot progress.

So--a question from another newbie (hi, Heather!!): what is the new student's responsibility for self-protection? :confused:

I have been a rowing coach for a long time. I have also done a fair amount of rock-climbing. (In climbing there is a saying that if you're not falling, you're not trying.) So I understand that it's the teacher's/coach's responsibility to guide the learning process, which may sometimes involve pushing the student beyond what she thinks she can do. (And of course the student should inform the teacher if s/he has injuries, and the teacher should have some idea of the student's capabilities, etc. etc.)

All that said. . . if, as a newbie, you really believe that you will injure yourself if you do what sensei or sempai are asking you to do, then what?

I realize there may not be a black-and-white answer to this, and it hasn't come up for me (in any of the whopping 3 classes I've been to, lol). . . but now I am wondering. Experienced people, any thoughts?

Thanks.

Sue

giriasis

05-06-2004, 12:38 PM

Heather, this is what I was afraid would happen when I made my initial post on this thread. I'm so glad you are out of there. I have had a similar experience in a 10th dan/soke type school. There was no concept in the protection of its beginners. I was thrown into breakfalls in my second class which caused a major mental block for me and it has taken me a long time to get over that. You should not have been treated that way and you should not be expected to surrender what you feel is right or to surrender your inituition or common sense in order to practice a martial art. Aikido IS right for you, not just this instructor.

GaiaTS

05-06-2004, 12:56 PM

Sue,
If you really think you are going to be hurt by ANYTHING that goes on in the dojo you should stop doing it! In my opinion, staying safe should be the first priority of everyone, especially your sensei. Our sensei always reminds us that we should always speak up if anyone is going to get hurt. That said, hopefully you trust your sensei to make some decisions for you about what you are ready to do. When I get called up for ukemi I never know how Sensei is going to throw me. I trust him enough to know that he won't choose a technique I am not ready for. However, I might take an awkward fall or not respond the way he would like me to. These are valuable learning experiences that can only happen if I trust and give as much as I can to following his technique. So... don't let yourself get hurt, but try to have enough trust to let your sensei and your fellow students push you to your limit.
Good luck!
Gaia

Jeanne Shepard

05-06-2004, 12:59 PM

Back when I was learning to ride horses, it seemed that the prevailing teaching philosophy was "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." As a result, I jumped alot of fences that I wasn't ready for, and my body learned to react in fear. (I knew people who resorted to abusing substances to deal with the fear, especially during competitions.)It's taken me years to start getting that out of me, in every new activity I do, including Aikido.
Its a shame, there are much better ways to learn.

Jeanne :mad:

PeaceHeather

05-06-2004, 01:13 PM

Looking at yourr subsequent posts, I think you have no grounds whatever for questioning the way your teacher did the techniques when you were uke.

Well, let's see.

I am recovering from a back/hip injury. He knew this.

I have not been taught *any* ukemi. I have begun to forward roll, and could probably still count the total number of rolls I've done on one hand; but I have zero experience with breakfalls of any type. He knew this also.

This sensei did not explain the technique he was about to perform, and I had no warning it was coming. Up to this point, our entire class had been devoted to static, slow-motion, ki exercises. I landed hard, shocked, and frightened.

I agree, if this were the standard form of performing irimi nage in this class, then it would make perfect sense for me to accept that technique, perform it, and take uke for it. However, he was demonstrating a "street attack". Which is to say, I did not begin an attack, to which he responded with a nage and I took ukemi. I was walking back and forth across the mat while he talked to the class, and then he clotheslined me.

You know how, in class, sensei demonstrates a technique and then the rest of the class practices it? The rest of the class did not practice this. I'm still not completely sure why he did it, since afterward we all went right back to static, slow-motion, ki exercises.

The next day I called him to ask about this, and in between being called "young lady" and "hon", which I find patronizing considering I haven't been called those things since I was ten, he insisted that aikido (not his dojo or his instruction, *aikido*)was not the art for me and that he wasn't going to train me if I were going to keep calling "all the time". For the record, I've phoned him three times; the first two were to set up a time to visit the dojo for the first time, and this was the third.

Finally, in the time I have been observing lessons, working up the nerve to get on the mat, I have never once seen him use a white-belt as his uke when demonstrating a technique. This was the last of my preliminary free "try it and see" lessons, so technically I'm not even a white-belt yet. There was no reason for me to suspect that he would do this to me.

I ask questions in order to learn, and in order to protect my safety. As a student I have a right and a responsibility to ask questions whenever I'm unsure of something. I also have a right to expect an honest answer -- not to be interrupted before I can finish my question, not to be cut off any time I try to offer an explanation, not to be belittled, and not to be hung up on after being treated in that way.

Even assuming that I didn't have the "grounds" to question this incident, I still have every right to be treated with respect by my instructor. If there is no respect, then there is no trust, and if there is no trust, there is no point in practicing with that instructor.

Yes, as an instructor, you want to push your students to grow -- but don't you also work very hard to know their abilities, and to push them only in ways that you are certain they can accommodate?

This guy didn't.
Heather

Ron Tisdale

05-06-2004, 01:21 PM

Having had the opportunity to be on the mat in one of Peter's classes, I think I can safely say that there is a world of difference between Peter and this other 'gentleman'.

Frankly, I would trust Peter with my life, and that's after taking ukemi from him only 2 or three times 2 years ago.

I wouldn't even step on the mat with this other 'gentleman'.

Ron (once trust is broken...its awfully hard to recover...maybe impossible)

PeaceHeather

05-06-2004, 01:22 PM

When I get called up for ukemi I never know how Sensei is going to throw me. I trust him enough to know that he won't choose a technique I am not ready for.

And has your instructor worked to build that trust?

There are people posting here who have described needing to work through several lessons, with many many partners, in order to have the courage to be touched, not just to take ukemi when their partner performs nage. Their partners and their senseis were willing to work with them to build that trust.

Heather

Ron Tisdale

05-06-2004, 01:24 PM

I don't like tyrants and fakes, and that ain't what it takes to love me...ummmm hmmmm.....

RT :)

Nick Simpson

05-06-2004, 02:43 PM

That should be on a t-shirt Ron :)

drDalek

05-06-2004, 03:32 PM

Well, let's see.

<stuff about abusive teacher>

This guy didn't.
Heather

Someone who calls himself a "soke" of something is 110% of the time BAD NEWS. Go around to SEVERAL different Aikido places, look for the one where the instructor both looks the most relaxed and the students look the most "worn out but happy". Train there until you have a couple of gradings under your belt, then go back and squeegee Soke Clothesline's mat with his face. :grr:

Peter Goldsbury

05-06-2004, 06:42 PM

Well, let's see.

I am recovering from a back/hip injury. He knew this.

I have not been taught *any* ukemi. I have begun to forward roll, and could probably still count the total number of rolls I've done on one hand; but I have zero experience with breakfalls of any type. He knew this also.

This sensei did not explain the technique he was about to perform, and I had no warning it was coming. Up to this point, our entire class had been devoted to static, slow-motion, ki exercises. I landed hard, shocked, and frightened.

I agree, if this were the standard form of performing irimi nage in this class, then it would make perfect sense for me to accept that technique, perform it, and take uke for it. However, he was demonstrating a "street attack". Which is to say, I did not begin an attack, to which he responded with a nage and I took ukemi. I was walking back and forth across the mat while he talked to the class, and then he clotheslined me.

You know how, in class, sensei demonstrates a technique and then the rest of the class practices it? The rest of the class did not practice this. I'm still not completely sure why he did it, since afterward we all went right back to static, slow-motion, ki exercises.

The next day I called him to ask about this, and in between being called "young lady" and "hon", which I find patronizing considering I haven't been called those things since I was ten, he insisted that aikido (not his dojo or his instruction, *aikido*)was not the art for me and that he wasn't going to train me if I were going to keep calling "all the time". For the record, I've phoned him three times; the first two were to set up a time to visit the dojo for the first time, and this was the third.

Finally, in the time I have been observing lessons, working up the nerve to get on the mat, I have never once seen him use a white-belt as his uke when demonstrating a technique. This was the last of my preliminary free "try it and see" lessons, so technically I'm not even a white-belt yet. There was no reason for me to suspect that he would do this to me.

I ask questions in order to learn, and in order to protect my safety. As a student I have a right and a responsibility to ask questions whenever I'm unsure of something. I also have a right to expect an honest answer -- not to be interrupted before I can finish my question, not to be cut off any time I try to offer an explanation, not to be belittled, and not to be hung up on after being treated in that way.

Even assuming that I didn't have the "grounds" to question this incident, I still have every right to be treated with respect by my instructor. If there is no respect, then there is no trust, and if there is no trust, there is no point in practicing with that instructor.

Yes, as an instructor, you want to push your students to grow -- but don't you also work very hard to know their abilities, and to push them only in ways that you are certain they can accommodate?

This guy didn't.
Heather

Hello Heather,

My apologies.

I was assuming that your instructor was simply tough; your last post (quoted above) makes your situation somewhat clearer—and if I were you, I would find another dojo.

In my own dojo we spend about 20-30 minutes each class on ukemi (rolls, not breakfalls) before doing techniques and the entire class does this, even the dan holders. The student I mentioned earlier has just passed her 3rd kyu test, but still does not do breakfalls. She will learn breakfalls later on, along with koshi-nage. In addition, any student, white belt or black belt, can be called upon to be uke.

I have been living in Japan for the last 20 years or so and I do not know whether this is normal in the US. The last time I practised in the US was in 2002 at the Aiki Expo. I taught some techniques requiring breakfalls on that occasion, but I was a visiting instructor and made a judgment based on a variety of factors, but partly on watching other classes. However, one participant e-mailed me afterwards asking how to practise such ukemi: he had never learned to do it in his own dojo.

I think correct ukemi is crucial in aikido and there are some very good videos available. Those by Bruce Bookman and Donovan Waite come to mind, but I think these should be used to supplement regular ukemi training in one's own dojo—they should not be a substitute for this.

There are several important factors in training. Aikido is an encounter between two or more people and all should emerge from the encounter enriched as a result. I think it is the instructor's duty to give students a vision beyond what they feel capable of—and help them to achieve it. Of course, there is also a major duty of care, which the students have also.

Best regards,

PeaceHeather

05-06-2004, 07:20 PM

Someone who calls himself a "soke" of something is 110% of the time BAD NEWS. Go around to SEVERAL different Aikido places, look for the one where the instructor both looks the most relaxed and the students look the most "worn out but happy". Train there until you have a couple of gradings under your belt, then go back and squeegee Soke Clothesline's mat with his face. :grr:

Well, squeegee-nage is one approach... :cool:

I'm about to say something that may get me a ton of flack from all of you who have offered me such support. I had to do it, though.

I went back to the dojo tonight to talk to the teacher. I apologized and offered to pay the dues to officially join the dojo.

Now, before you all go "What?!?! let me explain. ("No, no, is too much. Let me sum up.")

Peter's post got me thinking, and shook me out of the place from which I had been thinking, reacting, and approaching this entire situation. The whole point was that he did something, probably inappropriate, and that I reacted with fear. But then I questioned him, less out of self-respect and a desire to learn than from fear -- and then he definitely responded to me inappropriately.

I realized that I was giving him too much power in this situation, and that rather than trying to blend, I was trying to oppose, overcome, run away, prove myself right and him wrong, and so on and so on. I'm not saying that any of those reactions or desires was wrong, necessarily, but when I let myself become quiet and examine the way I was going about them, I saw that things didn't feel quite right. None of the possible approaches felt right to me inside, because none of the consequences looked like they would really lead to growth for either him or me.

Once I understood that, I understood that I couldn't just leave things as they were. I wouldn't be able to go to another dojo without having the ghost of this one following me in some way.

I kept sitting there feeling like I had something to prove to him, and it occurred to me that maybe I needed to prove something to myself as well.

Could it be possible that I had, in fear, jumped to a wrong conclusion about the original event itself? Could it be that I was falling into an old pattern from my days as "verbal abuse uke"? Could it be that I could go onto the mat, knowing the fear was there and face it honestly? Could I bring myself to trust this person again, if only long enough to grant him a second chance? At the very least, could I let go of the negative and allow myself to see anything positive in this person, in this situation, and respond to that instead of the negative? Could I do all those things without relinquishing my sense of self-respect and personal power?

Sitting quietly, searching deeply, I realized the answer to all these questions was yes.

The thing that hurt most about the phone call I made to question his motives was that he responded as if he believed I was somehow weak -- or at least, that's how it felt to me; I kept wanting to prove him wrong. After looking at all the possible options, I discovered that only one would really conclusively do that -- and it would also help prove to myself as well that I wasn't weak.

For me, facing fear is one of the things that aikido is about, and by offering him a second chance from the right place, I could not only face that fear -- being vulnerable on purpose is scary! -- I could better handle any of his possible reactions. After all, no matter what he said, I could take comfort in the knowledge that I had the high ground and was the bigger person.

For those of you fearing for my personal safety, I'll say that he still said no. He's not going to take me back as a student. But I think he sees me now in a completely different light -- my approach made all the difference in the word to his response. Best of all, the ghost of this experience will no longer be able to follow me on my path to the next dojo.

I still think he's wrong about a few things (that I can't do aikido because of my back problems, mainly), but I no longer feel that I have anything to prove to him; I know the truth for myself, and that is enough.

I have to leave for dinner, so I'll end this post here without adding more detail. Suffice to say I've made peace with the incident tonight, and grown in a way that fits with my understanding of aikido, and that feels right to me on all levels.

Peace!
Heather

Largo

05-06-2004, 10:30 PM

Facing your fears is fine, and it is something that all martial arts are about. However, I have to disagree with your teacher's style. I have never been suddenly `clotheslined` by my sensei, and I am a shodan. He has pushed me, but in every situation there has been a possiblity of success (i.e. taking the ukemi, etc safely). I cannot imagine taking a begninner and using them as a demonstration of an irimi-nage. If you read reports on deaths due to training, they mainly stem from imrimi-nage and shihonage. They are dangerous techniques if the proper ukemi isn't taken.

As far as the soke bit goes, it's pretty much a sign that he is a fraud. A soke is an inheretor/ owner of a style or way of doing things. It's similar to owning a patent. If he is truely the soke of aikido, then he could rightfully charge anyone who uses a nikyo or who teaches it a royalty fee, or force them to stop teaching. (this is more applicable to a soke of a sake brewing style, where recipies and such are more trademarkable, but the level of authority still applies).

Jeanne Shepard

05-07-2004, 12:24 AM

I give you credit for facing your fears, but I agree, he has some deficits as a teacher, and its at least a 50-50 proposition.

Jeanne

Nick Simpson

05-07-2004, 04:08 AM

Yep, credit due for facing your fears Heather, but it still doesnt solve the problem that the guy is definately a knob jockey and very possibly a fraud. His aikido might be good but he isnt a legitimate tenth dan/soke, if he was his aikido would be on a par with Shioda sensei, Tohei sensei or at least any of the merely 7th dan Shihan...

angel_joanna20

05-07-2004, 06:02 AM

GaiaTS

05-07-2004, 07:29 AM

Heather,
I'm glad you feel good about confronting your fears but mostly I'm just glad that you're out of that dojo. Regardless of title/fraud, etc... no teacher should be treating a student that way.
To answer your question (would someone please explain to me how to quote previous messages???):
Yes. My sensei has absolutely earned the trust I give him. I think I trust him more than just about anyone. He is incredibly perceptive and knows his students well. If your teacher doesn't deserved your trust, by all means don't give it to them. But find another place to train...
Best!
Gaia

Robert Jackson

05-07-2004, 07:51 AM

(would someone please explain to me how to quote previous messages???):

It could be rather simple... highlight what you want to quote and copy it (ctrl-C or right click copy) and in your message either click the icon that look like a talk bubble or type {QUOTE] expect both brackets need to be square then past (CTRL-V or rick click paste) hit the icon thingy again or type {/QUOTE] again both brackets need be square...

Bronson

05-07-2004, 09:09 AM

It's even simpler than that. Hit the "quote" button at the bottom right hand corner of the post. Then simply delete the things between the brackets that you don't want.

Bronson

PeaceHeather

05-07-2004, 09:16 AM

Thanks, everyone.

Let's see... Peter, I'm sorry I wasn't clear before, and I'm glad that you see where I was coming from now. I do still agree with your point -- if this is the typical way a technique is taught in this dojo, then my duty as a student is to deal with it. Obviously, if it isn't typical, then things are Uncool (tm).

Paul, about the soke thing, yup. I've gotten some more information on all that, and I have no argument. About the only thing I would say is that, sadly, his aikido does seem to be pretty darn good, his students are all very cool people, and he genuinely does not seem to be running some kind of money-trip. Honestly, in my opinion, if he wants to call himself a 12th-dan enlightened boddhisattva of aikido, if it helps him sleep better at night he's welcome to it. Whatever he chooses to call himself is irrelevant to what kind of teacher he is. For what it's worth, I think he genuinely believes he's "legit". Gah, it sounds like I'm apologizing for him, and I don't mean to do that, so I'll move on now. :cool:

Jeanne -- and Gaia, and all the other women -- thank you for the encouragement you have sent my way. My suspicion, actually, is that this teacher's random outbursts are more aimed at women students than at men. I don't have a whole lot of evidence to back that suspicion up other than my intuition, a little anecdotal story from another woman, and the awareness that he only has one female student right now. All that is pretty flimsy, though. And I agree, his methods are very iffy -- my thought was, if he was to accept my dues again and take me as a member, I would only train on the night that he is not present. I trust his yudansha senseis implicitly.

Nick... "knob jockey"?? :D Thanks for the laugh. And I agree with the rest of your statement, too.

Thanks everyone.
Heather

PeaceHeather

05-07-2004, 09:18 AM

hi !
Well, I just started to train aikido.My first lesson was incredible for me.I was very nervous,I didn't understand many things.After a few lessons i started to understand some things.I hope that one day aikido will help me find my own path.

Joanna,

Welcome! Thanks for posting in this thread -- I feel like I've been taking everyone off-topic, and I started the topic!

How long have you been studying?
Heather

MaryKaye

05-07-2004, 10:01 AM

I *do* have trust issues. It takes courage for me to come onto the mat. Something like what happened, however minor (in the sense that I'm a little stiff but not broken or anything), really throws me off-balance mentally and emotionally.

If you were a sensei, and had a student who was struggling with stuff like this, how would you push them in this area? How would you test them? Is this just a test gone wrong?

Heather

I think the closest experience I've had (I'm way too junior to teach aikido) is teaching public speaking to college students who are terrified of it.

The best approach I know is to set up situations in which they are as likely as possible to succeed. The pushing is then gently but firmly insisting that they try. For public speaking, I arrange a friendly audience, a familiar topic, and good speaking aids as much as possible, but I do insist that the student gives the talk and uses his/her full time. I can also help by asking leading questions when they get stuck.

The idea is to give the experience of being scared but succeeding. It's counterproductive for me to do anything that makes the talk harder when the student's already terrified. I would save that for later, when some confidence has been built up, and then start slowly--asking a more difficult question, making the setting a bit more formal, etc.

I believe I'd do the same for a fearful aikido student. At first, make the experience as safe as possible. Only as the student shows me that s/he is ready for more challenges, start to provide them. There's no rush--it's going to take a lifetime to learn aikido anyway, so weeks or months at the start won't make much difference in the long run. (A teacher who is not prepared to be patient isn't a suitable teacher for people with trust issues, or physical limitations for that matter.)

The other principle I'd use is that tests, formal or informal, are for the benefit of the student--they show the student what s/he is capable of doing. If the student's estimate of their capabilities is unrealistically low, as it often is for fearful people, the best tests are ones where the student can definitely succeed. This builds up their awareness of what they genuinely can do much faster than tests they will fail, which reinforce their sense of inability.

My sensei teaches this point when we're working on kokyu dosa (a kneeling exercise where nage tries to push uke backwards and to the side without using brute force). It is easy for a more experienced student to resist a beginner's kokyu dosa so that they fail every time, but it's not useful. Initially we're to provide no more resistance than they can handle. As they become more capable and confident, we can slightly increase it so that sometimes they don't succeed and have to stretch their technique. But (except for one demonstration where I asked to try it) I don't have to deal with my fourth dan teacher "turning into a mountain" that I can't possibly move. I get a lot more resistance from her than I did initially, but it's not stepped up to the point of inevitable failure.

Some people argue that this leads to students with unrealistically high views of their own ability, but that hasn't been my experience in working with fearful students--they are quite well aware of their weaknesses. If it does become a problem, it seems relatively easy to fix--the one demonstration of "turning into a mountain" definitely showed me that I have a lot to learn about kokyu dosa yet even though I can generally get it to work in class!

Mary Kaye

indomaresa

05-07-2004, 11:20 AM

:) :)

bravo heather, i've read the entire thread and I must say that your move to apologize to this sake guy is fantastic. That's the very essence of self-control and coolness.

I myself would probably have too much pride to do so and sought to prove myself somewhere else (this shows how immature i am). The act of watching yourself from a perspective, calmly finding the problem and then deciding the correct answer ( ignoring your ego, feelings, etc ) to eliminate your problem is amazingly self-composed.

Earlier in this thread I feel that you are someone who lives in her own head too much, but since it turns out that it gives results. I'm gonna start dusting inside too. ^^

however.. there's another perspective i wish to put in this forum.

in traditional times, when senseis are scarce, people would travel far from home and submit their life to a famous teacher, in order to learn. The sensei will became their parent, and is rightly authorized to order the students to anything. Some teachers died without imparting a single skill to their student, despite the length of time a student has been living with him; or a student would die, or be disabled for life during training. Most of the time, the students will practice the art until old age. Rarely, some student will become a legend in their own right. Like O'sensei and Sokaku Takeda.

The teachers back then has the right to the life of their student. Is it different from today? Yes.

But it shouldn't be. Martial art is about dedication and hardship, either to a teacher or to the art, Most of the time, both. People who joined martial art should be ready to get hurt or pressured, and Heather has proved that she can handle it, and fought her primal instincts tooth and nail (judging from her post, that is).

The only problem that i see here is that the sake realized his mistake, hence he didn't ask the other students to follow the technique and tried to protect himself by ousting heather from the dojo ( but you realized that already ). He's human too and is entitled to this bit of weakness.

You're the bigger man.. i mean girl here heather. Thumbs up!

that's all, anymore and I'd go on forever.

indomaresa

05-07-2004, 12:01 PM

ah, about the emotions on the mat

i have a problem of not showing my emotions on my face, not even pain... when i'm doing something. Which is a problem when I started aikido. A senpai would proceed to nikkyo me until I bodily slammed him to save my arm. ( not knowing to tap when hurt ).

The biggest emotion on the mat for me would be fear of failure, which occurs everytime i am singled out, anywhere - stage fright maybe? ( and has been since I was.... I forgot when ). But this emotion rarely occurs now that I'm a senpai with years of training under my belt.

When I experience fear, sometimes a strange part of my mind would shut down and force my body to do the opposite. Like when you fear to do a jumping roll, and yet push your way to be the first in line to do it. -_-

When that didn't happen, the only emotions on the mat i feel is joy, frustration and then again... joy.

is astonishment an emotion too?.. i had plenty of those

PeaceHeather

05-07-2004, 12:05 PM

I myself would probably have too much pride to do so and sought to prove myself somewhere else (this shows how immature i am). The act of watching yourself from a perspective, calmly finding the problem and then deciding the correct answer ( ignoring your ego, feelings, etc ) to eliminate your problem is amazingly self-composed.

I didn't feel self-composed at all until about two days after it happened! And I won't be going back to that dojo. I do plan to prove myself somewhere else -- but now, at least, I won't have bad memories or regrets about "unfinished business" following me afterward.

Plus, I didn't ignore my ego -- and I didn't ignore my feelings. It was the hardest thing I've done in quite a while, but I've learned that "ignore" usually really means "fight with and try to push away". I had to let myself stop and listen to everything, to see all the possibilities, and to be good to myself first -- and then, be good to myself by offering to be good to this teacher.

Earlier in this thread I feel that you are someone who lives in her own head too much, but since it turns out that it gives results. I'm gonna start dusting inside too. ^^

Oh, but I do live in my head too much. That's one of the reasons I'm interested in aikido -- I'm trying to take the things I've learned and bring them out into the world with training and practice.

The teachers back then has the right to the life of their student. Is it different from today? Yes.

But it shouldn't be. Martial art is about dedication and hardship, either to a teacher or to the art, Most of the time, both. People who joined martial art should be ready to get hurt or pressured, and Heather has proved that she can handle it, and fought her primal instincts tooth and nail (judging from her post, that is).

I disagree. Yes, a student should dedicate themselves to a martial art, or to anything that they want to learn. But no teacher should ever have the right to overrun your own sense of trust and safety.

I agree that this was a test for me, perhaps more between me and the universe than between me and this teacher. And I do feel that I passed the test. But the reason I passed is that I *listened* to my instincts -- all of them. I didn't stay with only anger, or only fear, but likewise I didn't fool myself into believing that submission was the same as compassion. I chose, in the end, to respond to him with compassion, without giving up my understanding that what he did was wrong.

In other words, I realized I was trying to either oppose or leave my "partner". Then I stopped, found the proper way to enter, the best way to blend, and tried to redirect the energy, and guide my partner to a better understanding.. and then let go.

The result: as nervous as I was, I did enter to talk to the teacher. I did blend. I won't be able to go back to the dojo after this, but the teacher no longer thinks of me as weak, so I did redirect. And I have let go of the remaining anger, disappointment, and regret.

He's human too and is entitled to this bit of weakness.

I still believe that a responsible teacher should not do what he did, but since his weakness no longer affects me, it doesn't matter anymore.

Peace!
Heather

giriasis

05-07-2004, 04:02 PM

Well, squeegee-nage is one approach... :cool:

I'm about to say something that may get me a ton of flack from all of you who have offered me such support. I had to do it, though.

YES, I will give you flak! And I'm doing so because I think if he didn't say "no" that you would have gone back.

I went back to the dojo tonight to talk to the teacher. I apologized and offered to pay the dues to officially join the dojo.

Heather, I beg you not to go back there. There is a big difference between having to face your fears and being abused. You owe nothing to this man. You have nothing to prove to this man and he holds nothing over you. You have a responsibility for you own self preservation. You have not being trained in ukemi or breakfalls and he throws your into breakfalls??!! Please don't rationalize your inituition away. We have it for a reason. Plenty of people, regardless of the Soke issue, have told you that is NOT proper treatment in a dojo. There is certain harm we consent to occur when we participate in an acitivity but this is not it.

Now, before you all go "What?!?! let me explain. ("No, no, is too much. Let me sum up.")

Peter's post got me thinking, and shook me out of the place from which I had been thinking, reacting, and approaching this entire situation. The whole point was that he did something, probably inappropriate, and that I reacted with fear. But then I questioned him, less out of self-respect and a desire to learn than from fear -- and then he definitely responded to me inappropriately.

Please go back and read Peter's subsequent post. He was talking about a situation where a student has been taught ukemi and is recently promoted to 3rd kyu -- they are not a beginner and could no way count the number of rolls that they have done on one hand.

I realized that I was giving him too much power in this situation, and that rather than trying to blend, I was trying to oppose, overcome, run away, prove myself right and him wrong, and so on and so on. I'm not saying that any of those reactions or desires was wrong, necessarily, but when I let myself become quiet and examine the way I was going about them, I saw that things didn't feel quite right. None of the possible approaches felt right to me inside, because none of the consequences looked like they would really lead to growth for either him or me.

We someone's boundaries have been violated and when an instructor has gone too far it is absolutely normal to get upset by and to leave the abusive situation. If you don't want to be reactionary and be proactive, then chose to protect your body. When you enter a dojo you do not surrender away your right stand up for what is right.

Once I understood that, I understood that I couldn't just leave things as they were. I wouldn't be able to go to another dojo without having the ghost of this one following me in some way.

It is respectable to want to learn to respond to bad situations in an assertive, proactive way. I think this is what you are getting at. But this does not mean you have to continue training with. It means you can give him a phone call or write a letter explaining why you are not coming back. And then submit it to the Better Business Bureau. THAT is an assertive and proactive way to deal with an abusive or potentially abusive situation. RE-entering that situation is like going back to an abusive spouse/ boyfriend thinking "it will be better."

I kept sitting there feeling like I had something to prove to him, and it occurred to me that maybe I needed to prove something to myself as well.

What exactly is it that you are trying to prove? To prove that you have right to stand up for yourself? That IS GOOD.

Could it be possible that I had, in fear, jumped to a wrong conclusion about the original event itself? Could it be that I was falling into an old pattern from my days as "verbal abuse uke"? Could it be that I could go onto the mat, knowing the fear was there and face it honestly? Could I bring myself to trust this person again, if only long enough to grant him a second chance? At the very least, could I let go of the negative and allow myself to see anything positive in this person, in this situation, and respond to that instead of the negative? Could I do all those things without relinquishing my sense of self-respect and personal power?

Sitting quietly, searching deeply, I realized the answer to all these questions was yes.

If you go back and re-read what most people said, I believe we would argue that you were not jumping to conclusions. We have given you support, reinforcing the fact that beginners are not forced into situations such as this.

The thing that hurt most about the phone call I made to question his motives was that he responded as if he believed I was somehow weak -- or at least, that's how it felt to me; I kept wanting to prove him wrong. After looking at all the possible options, I discovered that only one would really conclusively do that -- and it would also help prove to myself as well that I wasn't weak.

You are not weak for CHOOSING to object to how you were treated. You are not weak for standing up for yourself. You are STRONG!

For me, facing fear is one of the things that aikido is about, and by offering him a second chance from the right place, I could not only face that fear -- being vulnerable on purpose is scary! -- I could better handle any of his possible reactions. After all, no matter what he said, I could take comfort in the knowledge that I had the high ground and was the bigger person.

Aikido is about facing my fears, too. But there is a line that we draw in sand. There are boundaries, as individuals, that we choose to not be violated. When all those bells and whistles go off in your head, a boundary has been violated.

For those of you fearing for my personal safety, I'll say that he still said no. He's not going to take me back as a student. But I think he sees me now in a completely different light -- my approach made all the difference in the word to his response. Best of all, the ghost of this experience will no longer be able to follow me on my path to the next dojo.

I'm glad he said no. He's not taking you back because he discovered that you STAND UP for your SELF, and that he couldn't abuse you.

I still think he's wrong about a few things (that I can't do aikido because of my back problems, mainly), but I no longer feel that I have anything to prove to him; I know the truth for myself, and that is enough.

Please, seek to prove things to yourself.

I have to leave for dinner, so I'll end this post here without adding more detail. Suffice to say I've made peace with the incident tonight, and grown in a way that fits with my understanding of aikido, and that feels right to me on all levels.

I'm glad you found some closure.