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View Full Version : Hard to kill vs. The Glimmer man vs. Fire down below...


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Jeremy Gelman
04-21-2004, 04:45 AM
Hey guys, I'm almost fourteen and I'm new on the forums. I've been training Iwama-ryu aikido for a year now. I currently live in Tokyo (my dad has a job here).

My family and I feel like renting a Steven Seagal movie (my parents like seeing "what I'm doing in class". I'm gonna make a choice between HTK, TGM, and FDB. How do those movies rank when it comes to aikido fight scenes? Which one has the best aikido in it? Do TGM and FDB have any aikido at all?

Also, how much profanity is there in Hard To Kill? (My mom makes a big fuss about movies with profanity; DAMN THAT! ) :grr:

Anyways, I'd appreciate it if you guys help me and I look foward to being super active on the forum! :cool:

batemanb
04-21-2004, 06:26 AM
Hi Jeremy,

Welcome to the forum, I' m not long back from living in Tokyo myself.

As far as Seagal films go, I don't think you'll find many without profanity, none that I can think of. Of the three films you list, Hard to Kill probably has the most Aikido in its action scenes. However, given that profanity is an issue in all of his films, I would say that Nico (Above the Law) would be a better example of what he does, and contains some footage at the beginning of him in a dojo when he was younger.

In reality, you may find that someone at your club has some video footage of the All Japan Embutaikai, or some of O Sensei or Saito Sensei's tapes that they would be prepared to lend you. This would be a better reflection of what you do in the dojo, and wouldn't contain any profanity.


Regards

Bryan

Charles Hill
04-21-2004, 06:27 AM
Hi Jeremy,

I live about an hour`s ride south on the Shinkansen from you. I lived in Tokyo for about 4 and a half years. I hope you are enjoying it. As far as the movies, TGM is my favorite, but that is because the music was done by Trevor Rabin, former guitarist for the band , Yes. They are a bit before your time, but your parents probably know them.

Charles Hill

JMCavazos
04-21-2004, 08:18 AM
Considering your situation with parents, rent Fire Down Below. There is enough aikido in it to show them what you do in class, and I can't remember any profanity in it. Hard to Kill has WAY too much profanity but some probably the better aikido scenes. Glimmer Man hardly has any aikido in it, but some other karate/kung fu or whatever it is, in it.

I vote, Fire Down Below, based on the 3 choices you gave us.

shihonage
04-21-2004, 02:15 PM
Fire Down Below has very little Aikido.
Hard To Kill has a lot of Aikido.
Glimmer Man is the most entertaining film of all 3 and is also funny.
However it has some content which you may not be comfortable watching w/ your parents.

Out for Justice has overall the best collection of Seagal's movie Aikido, however.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
04-21-2004, 03:08 PM
To voice another opinion...
No Steven Seagal movie is a good example of aikido.
He just goes around thrashing people. Some of the techniques are kinda like aikido waza.

I'm sure you can find some tapes of demonstrations that will be much more impressive, and don't involve less aiki moments, like breaking chairs over people's heads.

If nothing else, aikiweb's multimedia section has several beautiful demonstration clips, such as those from Kimeda-sensei. Also, a few google searches will turn up online clips by a number of sensei of many different styles. Show them /that/.

Aristeia
04-21-2004, 07:02 PM
To voice another opinion...
No Steven Seagal movie is a good example of aikido.
He just goes around thrashing people. Some of the techniques are kinda like aikido waza.

I'm sure you can find some tapes of demonstrations that will be much more impressive, and don't involve less aiki moments, like breaking chairs over people's heads.

If nothing else, aikiweb's multimedia section has several beautiful demonstration clips, such as those from Kimeda-sensei. Also, a few google searches will turn up online clips by a number of sensei of many different styles. Show them /that/.

Unless of course he was wanting to show the folks that Aikido can be an effective martial art in which case Segal's early movies are fine. I have trouble understanding people who claim Segal doesn't do Aikido in his movies. It doesn't take a genius to spot irimi nage, shiho nage, koshi nage, juji nage etc etc. Just because his character is applying aikido with a different intent to what you would, doesn't make it any less aikido.

Byron
04-21-2004, 08:24 PM
I totally agree Mike. If you wanted to show someone what you do in class, I'd show them the steven seagal movies. I've tried showing non-aikidoka people seminar footage, video tapes etc of shihan and they just don't understand it. They go "Well he can just do this" or" he's letting him do that". Then you have to explain the nature of Aikido practice.

Too much explaining going on. Show them Seagal.

PeterR
04-21-2004, 08:45 PM
I totally agree Mike. If you wanted to show someone what you do in class, I'd show them the steven seagal movies. I've tried showing non-aikidoka people seminar footage, video tapes etc of shihan and they just don't understand it. They go "Well he can just do this" or" he's letting him do that". Then you have to explain the nature of Aikido practice.

Too much explaining going on. Show them Seagal.

I've got some great tapes where there is no doubt BUT I agree Show them Seagal.

Most demonstration tapes go no where near the potential of what Aikido can physically deliver - show them and your non-Aikido buddies will get glassy eyed. They are not interested in the philosophy. Of course parent, aunts and grand-ma are a different sort of animal.

Have your parents seen you train? Do they just want to see a movie with Aikido in it or are you trying to show them what you could deliver.

I've always liked Above the Law.

gasman
04-21-2004, 09:08 PM
Nico!!! the first and the best!!

Jeremy Gelman
04-21-2004, 09:39 PM
Hey guys, thanks so much for the help so far.

Just to clear things up, I'm not just gonna rent the Seagal movie to show my parents aikido, but also because I'm a freak about ALL Martial arts movies. It goes without saying that I especially like a movie with aikido in it.

My favorite over-all martial arts actor is Bruce Lee.

The only Seagal movie I've watched so far is Nico. It had GREAT aikodo in it but WAY to much profanity for my mother to take without yelling at me how I'm "becoming coarse" lol. :D

I don't mind profanity much and my folks don't mind much either as long as it's not excessive.

I know for a fact that TGM has a fairly good reputation for having an entertaning plot. This is not the case with FDB. But they are reputed to have more karate/kung fu than aikido.

Is the profanity in HTK really "WAY too much"?

And all things considered, is "Half Past Dead" a decent movie? I do love alcaratz movies...

I'm probably gonna rent TGM if you guys don't convince me otherwise... :freaky:

Anyways thanks.

Oh, what are your opinions on Seagal possibly portraying aikido as "violent" to some ignorant viewers?

Aristeia
04-21-2004, 09:47 PM
Oh, what are your opinions on Seagal possibly portraying aikido as "violent" to some ignorant viewers?

Let's put it this way. Do you feel ready to show, with your aikido, the realistic type applications at full force that Segals characters utilise? If not then it seems clear that you can use Segal to show one side of aikido potentiality, and then show people what you do in class to show how it doesn't need to be violent.

shihonage
04-21-2004, 10:13 PM
Unless of course he was wanting to show the folks that Aikido can be an effective martial art in which case Segal's early movies are fine. I have trouble understanding people who claim Segal doesn't do Aikido in his movies. It doesn't take a genius to spot irimi nage, shiho nage, koshi nage, juji nage etc etc. Just because his character is applying aikido with a different intent to what you would, doesn't make it any less aikido.

I completely agree.
Every single technique Seagal does in his earlier movies can be identified.
He shows martial application of technique as opposed to "overly safe everyday practice" version of technique.

When asked about Aikido by other people, I've tried showing the hilarious Aiki Expo tapes and the various big-name Sensei "my ukes dance smoothly and so do I" tapes to people only to have them critique it left and right and laugh.
And you know, they do have a point - neither demonstrate martial application of technique.

Seagal movies usually shut them up.
They show Aikido that is smooth but also martial.

Abasan
04-22-2004, 01:04 AM
You'll be half past dead yourself if you watch the movie half past dead. I made myself an oath never to buy a stevan seagal movie anymore after watching that. Stick with the movie's prior to glimmerman... its only downhill from there...

ryujin
04-22-2004, 01:05 AM
I prefer Executive Decision, mostly because Stevie dies in the first 10 minutes. :crazy:

:circle:

PeterR
04-22-2004, 01:17 AM
I completely agree.
Every single technique Seagal does in his earlier movies can be identified.

He shows martial application of technique as opposed to ......

Just because I'm feeling quirky I have to point out that what you see is not so much martial application as movie application. Some great, intense, Aikido technique but choreography all the same. Like I said I'ld rather watch a Seagal flick than the bulk of demo videos but ...

On another note I would rather approach the philosophy of Aikido from the martial side than the opposite where you could easily end up with an appreciation of neither. I want peoples first impression of Aikido to be intense - like I said show the a Seagal flick

Josh Bisker
04-22-2004, 02:25 AM
I always thought Under Seige was the coolest one (not to divert from the immediate focus). I could never quite figure out that business with the explosives in the microwave, but otherwise it was great. I seem to recall some not-for-mothers content though, so watch out.
In fact, most Segal movies would call up a mom-doesn't-like-this rating, as far as my experience has been. God, there should be a letter for that. M? Can we rate things M instead of R?

Jeremy Gelman
04-22-2004, 03:53 AM
Approximately how many f-words are there in Hard to kill? 20+ means that it's "M rated", at least for my mom that is, lol.

Yeah..thats about it...20+ is about where my mom goes berserk...my father doesn't care so much though....I've got a liberal father and a super-strict mother....ah, I'm going wacky :hypno:

Does the Glimmer man have any aikido in it; or at least some aikido variations?

I hate when my Mom tells me "not to be like the bad characters in the movie". I mean, I'm thirteen already, going on fourteen... :confused:

batemanb
04-22-2004, 03:57 AM
As a parent myself, isn't 13 a little too young to be renting and watching 18 (R) rated movies? ALthough, a couple of them may be 15's? If your parents are OK with you watching these films, then why not rent them all over a few nights?

regards

Bryan

shihonage
04-22-2004, 05:11 AM
Does the Glimmer man have any aikido in it; or at least some aikido variations?


This is just a small part from the hilarious scene in Glimmer Man where Seagal singlehandedly destroys a small restaurant.

http://www.speakeasy.org/~shihonage/glimmerthrow.gif

There's plenty of Aikido in that movie, as well as what some people may classify as "not Aikido".

WARNING: Glimmer Man has scenes of gore and a scene where Seagal removes a breast implant from a corpse.

Just because I'm feeling quirky I have to point out that what you see is not so much martial application as movie application. Some great, intense, Aikido technique but choreography all the same. Like I said I'ld rather watch a Seagal flick than the bulk of demo videos but ...

On another note I would rather approach the philosophy of Aikido from the martial side than the opposite where you could easily end up with an appreciation of neither. I want peoples first impression of Aikido to be intense - like I said show the a Seagal flick

Yes indeed I was just too lazy to point out the difference between martial and movie martial...

After all Aiki Expo and various Sensei tapes are also "movie" Aikido...

So comparing movie martial to movie unmartial, movie and movie cancel each other... and we have martial/1 which ends up with ... damn I need to get some sleep.

Jeremy Gelman
04-22-2004, 07:58 PM
Er...Bryan, I don't really think that it's the violence or sex in R-rated movies that my parents care so much about. I mean, I love action movies and I wouldn't be allowed to watch 85% of them if my folks disallowed me from watching R-rated movies...those kind of parents are so cruel...they think that TEENAGERS are gonna be "influenced" by the "bad" stuff.

Remember, sex and violence are a part of life and they're not something bad...I mean, would you adults call it bad for yourselves...when you're DOING IT?

I don't understand why you adults have to prohibit so strictly, kids and teens from watching R-rated material. As long as it's done in balance and moderation... just like everything, too much is not good but don't be a ascetic!

batemanb
04-23-2004, 03:10 AM
Er...Bryan, I don't really think that it's the violence or sex in R-rated movies that my parents care so much about. I mean, I love action movies and I wouldn't be allowed to watch 85% of them if my folks disallowed me from watching R-rated movies.

Jeremy,

I'm not here to preach morals, my fault for making the original post, I apologise. If the sex and violence is not an issue for your parents, then I don't see why profanity should be either.

...those kind of parents are so cruel...they think that TEENAGERS are gonna be "influenced" by the "bad" stuff.

That's the same point of view I had at your age, as did my eldest son, and as will my youngest when he gets there, and nearly every other teenager. It's not an issue of cruelty though, it's more likely a sense of responsibility from the parent. It is only as you get older and become a parent yourself that will look deeper into that way of thinking, and, if you look at society today, I think that there is some truth in it.

Remember, sex and violence are a part of life and they're not something bad...I mean, would you adults call it bad for yourselves...when you're DOING IT?

I have to disagree with you there, violence most certainly is not something good. As for the sex part, the reasons for restricting viewing at your age is partly because of the way it can be displayed in a movie, and certainly because of the responsibilities involved. I do believe that at 13 / 14 not everyone is capable of understanding them.

I don't understand why you adults have to prohibit so strictly, kids and teens from watching R-rated material. As long as it's done in balance and moderation... just like everything, too much is not good but don't be a ascetic!

You're right to a degree. I don't mind my kids watching action films, I don't mind if there's profanity in the films as long as I don't catch my kids using it. But how do you balance it though, where do you draw the line? A parent has to use their own judgement, which will be different from person to person, and will always be too strict for the teenager. One can only try to be fair based on their own experiences.

As I said before, not here to preach, apologise to everyone for causing the topic to wander, let's put the thread back on topic.

Regards

Bryan

Jeremy Gelman
04-24-2004, 08:32 PM
Ok, I understand most of what you said, Bryan (no offense, but you come out with the same kinda stuff my parents come out with..)

However, I don't understand the part about "violence is not something good." Violence SHOULD be employed at certain places and certain times, like if ever find yourself being mugged--or, if you're a policeman like Seagal of course, lol.

The problem is what your intention is when employing violence. Are you being violent for the sake of your own safety or society's safety, or are you being purely savage. Of course, you're probably not thinking of these kind of things when you are in a life and death situation.

I just watched a war movie, "The Rough Riders", last night and in the movie, which is about the Teddy Roosevelt and the Spanish-American war, the commander of troops tells the men to "Become man-killers and murderers", to "not care about anybody's life but your own troopsmen's". Then the troops went into a violent training hype.

The point is, sometimes, violence is needed for certain purposes. However, in the whole scope of things, the violence must be for the cause of peace. We should never use violence when it hurts society.

Man has a natural violent tendency and when it is too suppressed and disallowed at all times, it is more destructive then good. The men burst.

That is why I feel that it is good to sometimes "let it all out" in a way that is not at all disturbing to society. For example, a workout on a punching bag or something of the same sort.

Anyways, sorry for spilling my whole concussed brain out here and I'm sorry for causing the board to go off-topic. And please don't take it personal, Bryan.

I just don't like it when parents look at things so subjectively instead of objectively. There DOES have to be a drawn line but parents can not get hypocritical about it!

And I know I'm just talking like a stereo-type teenager but whatever.....

Suru
05-24-2004, 07:16 PM
I would say The Glimmer Man is the most entertaining of those movies. If I remember correctly there is a standard kote gaeshi in it, but that's all the standard Aikido I can remember there.

Fire Down Below has a heart-warming plot and a great makeshift jo scene.

Is Hard to Kill the one in which he goes to Jamaica? Or is that Marked for Death? Anyway, in the one where he goes to Jamaica, he holds an attacker in sankyo while he punches another attacker with his free arm. Now that's just cool.

I think all Seagal movies, except Under Siege, are B movies so don't expect too much!

Drew

Michael Hackett
05-24-2004, 09:41 PM
Perhaps Mrs. Gelman doesn't like the profanity for her own viewing. From the way young Master Gelman writes, and with his obvious maturity, I doubt that almost anything he sees on film will damage him a great deal. Of course, perhaps too, she simply doesn't want to expose him to a more sordid side of life. In any event, Hard to Kill gets my vote for the most entertaining of his movies with aikido being shown - at least the first fifteen minutes. The Glimmer Man was the most fun with the humor written for Keenan Ivory Wayans.

Michael

Bronson
05-24-2004, 09:52 PM
I still think Executive Decision is his best movie so far ;)

Bronson