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Steven Tame
04-20-2004, 01:49 PM
I have noticed that when some yudansha and high ranked kyu holders do certain techniques most notably for me:

Sumi-Otoshi
Shiho-Nage
Kote-Gaeshi

Uke appears to fly through the air instead of just falling to the floor.

What is the difference in the execution of the technique that causes it to have this more powerful effect?

Ron Tisdale
04-20-2004, 01:52 PM
kokyu ryoku

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
04-20-2004, 02:41 PM
Balance is a remarkable thing. It can be like, as I've heard, a skier hitting a rock and flying into the air. Or like someone moving to sit down in a chair that is then pulled out from under them.

Not sure how to get airtime with shihonage, really. Not the basic over-the-shoulder style. If you do a Yoshinkai/Yoshokai 'shihonage advanced' variant, that can definitely flip people.

Kotegaeshi can flip people because they need to keep up with their wrist. Also, of course, balance matters; if you do it smoothly and with uke's energy (say, as they are pulling, or moving to right themselves after being bent forward) you add their momentum to the motion.

Quick warning: Never muscle techniques!
I made this mistake once or twice, before sensei corrected me. Techniques can use a lot of power, but please, for the sake of your training partners, don't ever think "Hmm, well, this will work if I just really put some muscle into it." Easily leads to injuries.

Don't make flipping uke through the air a goal. Unbalancing them is enough! The flipping comes later.

ian
04-21-2004, 06:32 AM
Power can only be applied when the means of resistance (balance) is completely taken - it is like pulling a chair from underneath someone, and as you see they are going to fall you push down hard on their head. Though this may look more dramatic, is it what we necessarily want to do?

Ian

drDalek
04-21-2004, 07:09 AM
I find that is more likely my uke would flip out of a kotegaeshi (as opposed to rolling around on the floor) if I take his wrist past his face, smoothly around and down and into the knot in his belt (which corresponds to his center)

A compliant uke will follow this motion and do a nice cartwheel for you while an inexperienced or difficult uke will break their wrist as they try and just roll around as always. You have been warned.

When you do what I described, try and do it as you step forward with the same leg as the side on which uke is, while you breath out, timing your breath to end as your foot lands and your arms complete the motion with uke's wrist. If you step in deep enough you can pull uke across you using your hips which can give you even more hang-time as it turns the kotegeashi into a koshinage.

Ofcourse, none of this works from static, you have to do this in motion and it helps if you do this as low to the ground as possible, but not so low as to have uke land on their head when doing the cartwheel, save that for when you need to knock someone out or kill them.

mmm, I guess, in a sense to do the technique safely you dont break uke's balance completely, just enough to practice, I never considered it before.

I still need to do some further experimentation to see how to get more hang-time with shihonage, I expect that because you manipulate uke's arm in a similiar way to kotegaeshi during shihonage that much of the same idea can be applied and the potential for turning it into a koshinage is also quite strong.

Yann Golanski
04-21-2004, 07:29 AM
Shihonage can be viewed as a tenkai kotegaeshi. If you look at what uke's wrist is doing in both techniques, then you'll notice that it's the same movement. It's just tori's hand that are positioned differently. The kuzushi is different and so is the body movement.

With shihonage, tori gets the option to either drop uke on the floor here and there or throw uke away. If tori feels really mean, he can keep Ike's arm straight thus forcing uke to ukemi over his own arm. Be warned that if you do that to someone who is not expecting it, you'll smash their arm into smithereens. You have been warned.

batemanb
04-21-2004, 08:19 AM
IWhat is the difference in the execution of the technique that causes it to have this more powerful effect?


Movement.

Both where tori moves himself to, and where/ how he moves uke to in order for uke to be able to do ukemi. Uke is most often likely to drop/ collapse in a heap because he is unable to do ukemi as a result of being in the wrong position.


rgds

Bryan

Greg Jennings
04-21-2004, 09:00 AM
I find that is more likely my uke would flip out of a kotegaeshi (as opposed to rolling around on the floor) if I take his wrist past his face, smoothly around and down and into the knot in his belt (which corresponds to his center)

When I bring the gripped kote up that way, I end up giving uke his balance back.

Unless uke has is pulling the kote back to him, I always keep the balance broken to the forward/rear and down with no slack and let my tai sabaki do the throw.

Per an earlier thead, if I can do a technique in such a way that uke has no option to break connection by a breakfall, I'm a happy guy.

YMMV,

Bronson
04-21-2004, 09:31 AM
I have noticed that when some yudansha and high ranked kyu holders do certain techniques most notably for me:

Sumi-Otoshi
Shiho-Nage
Kote-Gaeshi

Uke appears to fly through the air instead of just falling to the floor.

In our dojo it's the more skilled that get uke to drop straight to the floor. Not many big falls for us, mostly getting dropped, dumped, or guided stright down. The people with more skill can do it softer and with more subtletly. Many times I'll be staring at the ceiling thinking "hmm, I wonder how that happened?"

Bronson

Steven Tame
04-21-2004, 11:08 AM
Yeah of course I will be careful when I practice these kinds of techniques. I have been injured by people who decide to come out with this kind of thing in regular practice when I wasn`t expecting it.

Any comments about the Sumi otoshi?

I`m basically interested in the principles cos I`d like to further my understanding of these techniques.

Ron Tisdale
04-21-2004, 03:03 PM
For an interesting understanding of sumi otoshi, take a look at the clips on aikido journal of Yamaguchi Sensei, or any of Takeda Sensei's top students. Puts it in a little different light than I'd seen it in before.

Ron

batemanb
04-22-2004, 12:50 AM
Uke is most often likely to drop/ collapse in a heap because he is unable to do ukemi as a result of being in the wrong position.

I neglected to say, as Bronson already has, that tori may put uke down like that intentionally.

In our dojo it's the more skilled that get uke to drop straight to the floor.

:)