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Motivation1
04-17-2004, 02:10 PM
I know this question has probably been asked about 50 times, but i'm going to ask it anyways. How would someone From deal with a boxer? I don't see how the aikidoka would be able to deal with a quick jab.

I know the question about actually being able to use it comes up a lot, but in going through the posts I didn't see anyone mention vs a boxer..

DanielR
04-17-2004, 02:25 PM
Eric, you might want to review the following threads:

aikido against a boxer (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4587)

defending against a boxer (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1452)

Motivation1
04-17-2004, 02:26 PM
Thanks

bob_stra
04-17-2004, 02:30 PM
I think this still works...

http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/marcvanriet/martialarts/

click on "segal parry" mpeg (at least, I think it's that one. Too lazy to download now ;-)

edited: Whoops - wrong clip after all. But that kinda movement - cover, enter, grab, go behind. The "bong sau" like movement (from Wing Chun) is what I was talking about. However it's somewhat unclear on this clip.

disabledaccount
04-17-2004, 02:51 PM
I used to be an amateur boxer. Jabs are tough because they're so quick. Tough but not impossible. Think of the jab as a quick punch thats NOT thrown from the center. It's all arm which means it'll be hard to get his center even if you can somehow connect with his arm so forget it. Just because you aren't latched onto his arm dosen't mean you can't take his center and throw him, however.

The key is to help him move in the direction his center's going, not his punch.Irimi nage would be a good bet, or you can catch him under the armpit for kokyu nage or kata gatemi. He'll probably tense up and land funny, wich is good for you, bad for him.

AsimHanif
04-17-2004, 04:23 PM
With all due respect, I will have to disagree with Bodhi.

As a boxer you learn to throw every punch from your center including and especially a jab. The purpose of a jab is to get you (your center) closer to the target as well as distract your opponent. So a good boxer does not lunge or give up his center. He or she will only throw the finishing blow when he or she is in range to make difinitive contact. This is no different than aikido principles. The problem is that there unfortunately are not a lot of good boxers going into aikido so many aikido will get an unrealistic view of how to deal with this. The truth is it is not about a particular technique to use but your timing has to be very good.

aikidoc
04-17-2004, 05:00 PM
On a bootleg tape of a Seagal seminar I saw from Santa Barbara California I saw him do something where he picked the jab up on the pull back phase catching the hand/thumb area and putting a thumb lock on. Don't know how well it would work with a fast person.

disabledaccount
04-17-2004, 06:10 PM
Asim,

Of course a good boxer will make mincemeat of a poor aikidoka, but that's hardly the issue. Perhaps instead of saying they don't throw punches from center, I should've said a boxer's jab dosen't throw the center into the punch. There's a big difference, I know.

At any rate, the mentioned techniques are examples of ways an aikidoka can negate the boxer's jab advantage wich happens to be lack of over-commitment of center and speed.

As a boxer, when you throw a punch you're generally shuffling in toward your target, but your jabs are coming out with very little if any wind up. They're usually set ups for a power shot.

Instead of waiting for the power shot as someone on one of the above links suggested, I would recommend using the boxer's forward motion as the impetus for a throw at the shoulder etc. rather than focus on his arms as basic aikido responses to punches tend to.

Sure, ideally your technique (or complete improvisation of such) will be based on the relationship between uke and nage as it unfolds real time. But irimi, kata gatame, or any of the hundreds of variations of kokyu nage are examples of solid aikido techniques that would be useful here, primarily because they rely on principles of taking uke's forward motion from any point on his/her body and turning it into a bad time to lose one's balance.

Just my opinion, hope this clarifies.

disabledaccount
04-17-2004, 06:13 PM
Oops, and I forgot to mention they're also naturals for the clinch!

Greg Jennings
04-17-2004, 09:23 PM
I never want to be in a reactive mode but rather in a proactive one.

...lead them into giving me something.

...show them something that isn't really there.

...show them something that they expect but change it into something that works for me.

...take them someplace that's familiar to me but unknown to them.

...make them think they have space to do something, when it's very easy to take it away.

...get them to grasp at a false straw.

etc. etc.

To me, these are all lessons that are there in the 31 jo partner practice if we open our eyes to see them.

FWLIW,

shihonage
04-17-2004, 10:54 PM
Drive into their stance with ikkyo stance (have your hand on their elbow but dont try to get the elbow up), before or as they're jabbing, and while keeping pressure on them with ikkyo, finalize the turn to ikkyo ura.

If he gets out of ikkyo, transition to nikkyo and sankyo.

Chris Birke
04-18-2004, 02:11 AM
Learn to box, then you will start to know.

I'd say a quick jab is just the tip of the iceburg, as most Aikido training doesn't deal with anything but the most simplistic attacks.

By the way, whats with using Stephen Segal movies as martial arts technique guides? That's just... so great.

TomanGaidin
04-18-2004, 05:01 AM
I think the Seagal movie being referred to is of an aikido seminar when he was still teaching, not one of his action movies.

actoman
04-18-2004, 09:46 AM
I am only a newbie but I would probably say a Shomen block into a tenkan Irimi Kokyunage throw. Just my 2 cents

paw
04-18-2004, 10:43 AM
How would someone From deal with a boxer?

Step 1: Find a boxer

Step 2: boxer: dons gloves aikidoist: dons mouthgaurd, headgear

Step 3: Train

Step 4: Repeat steps 1 - 3 as needed

Regards,

Paul

SeiserL
04-18-2004, 11:24 AM
Boxers. Great fighters.

Jab?

Get off the line. From above go for Shayu-undo or Irimi-nage. From behind, Tenbin-nage. Slip it and follow the retraction path pushing the elbow towards the rear Kuzushi point Kokyu-nage. Hook the arm at the elbow, Irimi-tenkan, slap the fist, Kotegaeshi. Its a bit high usually, but extend it to take balance and take Shiho-nage Ura or Omote.

IMHO, understand the path and momentum of the strike, the Aikido concepts, and almost anything can be taken with almost any Waza.

Mark Williams
04-19-2004, 05:09 AM
I'd say a quick jab is just the tip of the iceburg, as most Aikido training doesn't deal with anything but the most simplistic attacks.

I can't agree with this. In the Aikido I have learnt we learn from wrist grabs, shoulder grabs, lapel grabs, punches, kicks, weapons attacks etc. However, all of this is unimportant. Training against different attacks only teaches us how to learn movement and body positioning. If your positioning and body movement are good then you can use this to find an advantageous position against any attack.

I don't see why we always have this conversation about defending from jabs. People seem to have the impression that boxers would naturally be in an advantageous position against Aikidoka. Why? What is so good about boxing? Why fight a boxer on his terms when you can force him to fight on yours?

Actually, why fight at all! But that's another argument...

Chad Sloman
04-19-2004, 09:35 AM
The reason I think a boxer would probably have an advantage over me is their training. Although we try to be as realistic as possible in our training, many of us can't go "all out" because we just aren't good enough yet. Boxers are in the ring at a very early point, as a sort of trial by fire which has a very steep learning curve. Sure, we may have more "tools" than a boxer, technique-wise; but in my case, a boxer's training will have an advantage over mine. Many of us (hopefully) will never know if our skill will be good enough against a boxer, but I won't wager it until I actually have to. But it is valid to ask, as to what we should do against a jab. And it is even more valid to try to train against it.

paw
04-19-2004, 09:37 AM
What is so good about boxing?

Sparring in a boxing gym will quickly answer your question.

Regards,

Paul

Ron Tisdale
04-19-2004, 10:00 AM
What is so good about boxing?

Fighting posture, shuffling entry, familiarity with striking while being struck, full resistance training (within set rules), conditioning.

That's about it...

It seems to be enough...

Ron

AsimHanif
04-19-2004, 02:04 PM
Bodhi,
I didn't say a good boxer will defeat a poor aikidoka. I was trying to convey that the same skills apply to both aikido and boxing. And again I disagree (unless I still don't understand you) that a jab doesn't get throw from your center. It does.
But all these so called techniques against a boxer or any other artist are merely theoretical. The best thing I can say is train with a legit boxer and get the experience (taking Pauls advice). Any technique will be useful if executed properly.
For example in boxing you learn to slip punches. No big deal. As an aikidoist we do the same thing (munetski iriminage). So against a jab, you slip it and execute whatever. But the trick to remember is after a boxer or any attacker throws one punch he is looking to throw again. So again theoretically any technique can work. The trick is to get actual experience. There is not a best or worst technique to use against a boxer. The most important thing I got from boxing was knowing how to relax. Getting hit and not tensing up or getting emotional. So while a jab is not designed to knock you out it can distract you if you are not used to getting hit. That is the one aspect of most aikido training that we don't usually experience. I think Chad nailed it on this.

GrazZ
04-19-2004, 04:50 PM
how about just keeping safe distance? to me a jab is something done up close, so just keep backing up or moving around so he has to go for the big wind up punch or lunge to hit you

Chris Birke
04-19-2004, 06:18 PM
"to me a jab is something done up close, so just keep backing up "

You'd be amazed to learn that boxers have a different idea about what a jab is! Although your opinion is valid, others might mistakenly pass it off as fact. This could cause serious problems if in fact they wern't just curious about the answer for the sake of philosophic discussion.

Mind the grumpiness, I'm hungry. =)

bob_stra
04-20-2004, 01:54 AM
how about just keeping safe distance? to me a jab is something done up close, so just keep backing up or moving around so he has to go for the big wind up punch or lunge to hit you

(1) There are several types of jab. Not all of them are done from close up.

(2) Re: backing up -

Jab

You back up

*boxer grins*

Jab

You back up again

Overhand right

BANG! Lights out.

Boxing 101.

A jab is a "feeler" punch. It used to annoy, block / intercept another attack or to probe your opponent. *Usually* not a knockout blow by itself.

Backing up against a jab is just not smart. The simplest things to do are (1) diagonally angle off to the outside / inside ("slip" or irimi in aikido parlance) and / or (2) stop-hit it with a strike of your own ("jab catch"). Alternatively, (3) Tie up & grapple.

After you take his weapons away (hands), go nuts with whatever throw you want.

Backing up / circling forever etc will simply *not* work against a good boxer. I've tried it many, many times with poor results.

Ron Tisdale
04-20-2004, 10:43 AM
Backing up in a straight line is generally not a good idea against much of anything...

Ron

Chuck Clark
04-20-2004, 01:23 PM
Not neccesarily true Ron. It's hard to describe in a post, but if you're ever close where you can lay hands on... I can show you. We don't have to get off line, the line has to change. That can be accomplished in several ways.

Take care,

Ron Tisdale
04-20-2004, 03:29 PM
I'd love to get some mat time with you Clark Sensei (and not just over this question either...you could teach me a lot of things)! But in almost every situation I can thing of except sutemi, backing up in a straight line has generally gotten me into trouble. But I'm willing to learn...

Ron (I can think of some really nasty sutemi that aren't straight line though) :)

Adam Garrison
04-22-2004, 04:15 PM
Greetings to all in this thread :D

There have already been plenty of truths presented...

A few things I might offer from my meager experience in getting hit with boxing gloves while trying to pull off aikido technique:

1. Do not underestimate the value of a trained boxer's jab as a primary weapon. I have seen and felt the results of some amazing athletes who ARE able to very easily get their body & center behind this quick attack.

2. Keep your hands up in a defensive kamae. The boxer can almost always move his fist into your face quicker than you can identify the attack and choose the appropriate aiki response.

3. Be constantly aware of the line of attack. You have two options with any attack - punches are not the exception. You can either move off of the line of attack or move the attacker of of your centerline. Basic premise = keep the center protected at all cost

4. If they can strike fast - so can I ;)

O-Sensei was a firm believer in atemi - why can't we use them in a tactical manner?

Just some thoughts...

Respectfully,

Jeremy Gelman
04-22-2004, 08:46 PM
A few months ago, one of my aikido instructors gave a demonstration of trying to take "kotegaeshi" on a jab. It was absolutely hillarious.

The jabber was jabbing at the instructor's face swiftly and every time, the instructor tried to do "tai no henko" and grab the jabber's wrist. Of course, the instructor wasn't very sucsessful and the jabber kept backing up every time the grab-attempt was made and the instructor wound up chasing the jabber across the room, occasionally getting poked in the nose.

Personally, I would step off the line of attack and do a quick underhand punch to his ribs like in "Wakiba atemi" while twisting my body sideways so that the jab doesn't hit my face.

For example, if you and your attacker (jabber) are in "gyaku hanmi" (you've got your right foot foward, he's got his left foot foward) I would step in with my left foot when he jabs and give him a "wakiba atemi", twisting my hips sideways so that his jab will surely miss. Once you give him the atemi, you can take irimi nage or something like that...

Any thoughts?

PeterR
04-22-2004, 09:30 PM
A few months ago, one of my aikido instructors gave a demonstration of trying to take "kotegaeshi" on a jab. It was absolutely hillarious.

The jabber was jabbing at the instructor's face swiftly and every time, the instructor tried to do "tai no henko" and grab the jabber's wrist. Of course, the instructor wasn't very sucsessful and the jabber kept backing up every time the grab-attempt was made and the instructor wound up chasing the jabber across the room, occasionally getting poked in the nose.

It wont work. We do a lot of tanto work which is pretty damm close to jabs. Trying to capture the wrist and you are playing a fools game.

Taisabaki with simultaneous irimi - best would be gyakugamae-ate. Once you are in close and its not working you could switch to kotegaeshi if the situation presents itself.

Kotegaeshi is a fun technique but never my first choice. If your body position is right and you've gotten the kuzushi it can be devastating. Otherwise you have to have a compliant uke or a really dumb opponent.

Adam Garrison
04-23-2004, 09:18 AM
To Jeremy's post -

I have been one of those poor bastards hopping around the mat - trying to turn tenkan around a jab. :confused:

The problem is the hand has already fired and is now loaded and ready to punch me in the side or back of my head.

I definitely agree with Peter on this one - don't even try to capture the lead hand. If you insist on locking them up, try to draw a more commited cross or hook.

If anyone has seen some of the instructional hand-to-hand tapes from Systema - there are some wonderful movements presented to protect yourself from boxing style attacks and set yourself up in a "money" position to perform aikido technique. I know it may be mixing two great flavors here, but I firmly believe that if it works - why not incorporate it.

Cheers,

L. Camejo
04-25-2004, 11:08 PM
Taisabaki with simultaneous irimi - best would be gyakugamae-ate.

Peter beat me to the punch on this one.

Good tai sabaki and quick, penetrating irimi tend to work best for me as well against jabs. Using sen timing or alternatively, go no sen timing with sharp entry on the retract of the jab with Atemi waza like aigamae ate tend to work very nicely. I've found the tai-chi push hands exercises helpful for building the touch sensitivity for this, as well as our own tegatana awase exercise.

As far as the kotegaeshi idea goes, the attacker needs to relax the arms to maintain balance in movement, so atemi waza sets up for a nice follow up joint technique if the first does not work. On the reverse side, one has to relax their legs a bit to keep balance while resisting a joint technique, which sets up for a good follow up atemi waza.

Either way, the key is to avoid/deflect/slip the jab and get in close to control the limb, head or body.

LC:ai::ki:

Jeremy Gelman
04-26-2004, 06:59 AM
Don't take me wrong, the instructor gave the demonstation for the PURPOSE of showing why kotegaeshi DOESN'T WORK versus the jab.

In fact, he said that there are two things that aikido is very hard to execute against: jabs and ground-grappling.

This is very true, I think aikido should maybe encorparate some ground-fighting basics....

AsimHanif
04-27-2004, 12:33 PM
I'll offer one response to try.
In boxing we typically ride the jab back. Depending on your arm length, you can be just out of uke's reach or if your arms are short like mine I fan or catch the jab with my right hand (I typically lead with my left).
I invite my opponent to jab and as his jab retracts I ride (or follow) his path back to his guard position. So I usually end up with a counter jab to his chin or nose. This takes some timing not speed.
When doing this without gloves it is possible (POSSIBLE) to ride the jab back and execute an irimi shihonage or kokyu nage. You'll have to either slide with your lead foot or step in with the rear foot.
Play with it and see if this makes sense. it's kind of hard to explain on paper.

lone_ronin
05-13-2004, 06:17 PM
A few months ago, one of my aikido instructors gave a demonstration of trying to take "kotegaeshi" on a jab. It was absolutely hillarious.

The jabber was jabbing at the instructor's face swiftly and every time, the instructor tried to do "tai no henko" and grab the jabber's wrist. Of course, the instructor wasn't very sucsessful and the jabber kept backing up every time the grab-attempt was made and the instructor wound up chasing the jabber across the room, occasionally getting poked in the nose.


I trained in Shinbudokai (http://www.shinbudokai.org) (combative form of ki aikido) where my instructor was actually very good at doing something like this. Of course he trained for 10 years in Thaiboxing before doing aikido.

What he would do is from gyaku hanmi(Opposite stance), as the jab came he would slip it outside, moving forward. Ending up beside the person arm on the pull back, and then go for kote gaeshi throwing the person backwards.

Ninja Mike
05-13-2004, 07:26 PM
My suggestion would be to go far enough away from him so that when he decides to hit you he must "unbalance" himself, at this point you would take advantage of his off-balanceness. but ive never had to fight a boxer, (or anyone, not that people haven't tried to fight with me) before so i wouldn't know how well that would work.

makuchg
05-13-2004, 08:51 PM
From my experience the best way to deal with a jab is the same way a boxer deals with it-aviod. Ma'ai is extremely important when dealing with a striker, kicker, or grappler. The key is to create a mai'ai that is effective for you, yet ineffective for them. For example keeping a boxer in a position where his jab is ineffective (whether short or long) will cause frustration and lead to a overextended punch. In doubt, watch boxers. They do it all to each other throughtout a fight. This causes the opponent to open themselves up for the counter. However, the only way to learn avoidance is to train with a good puncher, as many of you have already noted.

Sometimes the most effective technique is no technique. Create an opening and exploit it. Don't force a technique where one is not appropriate. In the military we call this "tactical patience," I'm not sure if the Japanese have an equivilant term.

Greg Makuch

NagaBaba
05-13-2004, 10:22 PM
. How would someone From deal with a boxer? ..
Run, Eric, run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!