Best technique to use against someone shoving you?

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[Duval Culpepper]

Hello, I'm new to the boards. I'm Duval, a 17 year old student of Aikido from NYC.

Anyway, I was at a party recently where a altercation between a friend of mine and some guy was about to brew. Fortunately, I separated them, but the guy was pushing my friend with a lot of one-armed shoves.

Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that? I'm not one to escalate a situation to a fight, but sometimes action must be taken.

Thanks.

[kensparrow]

Assuming all attempts at diplomacy have failed... I would probably go with nikkyo. If he's pushed more than once you know what his timing his so it should be relatively easy to capture his hand and, done correctly, nikkyo is kind of a show stopper. Of course if you do it wrong you're probably going to get punched in the face so I really think you should stick with what you did last time.

[Duval Culpepper]

Isn't there a technique that's sort of a deflection where you extend the meaty part of your forearm and make contact with uke's strike?

I guess sort of like what you'd do with your arm if you were doing a forward roll, but not rolling.

[L. Camejo]

One handed push?

Grab the forearem, turn away, drop your upper arm over his elbow and sink your weight to the floor (called Hiji Osae or something like that - aka basic arm bar).

After he kisses the floor, hold him in the pin, pull out your 9mm, press it to his temple and ask him - "Do you feel lucky? Well do ya Punk?"

:p

Apologies for this post, been watching too much Eastwood and been dealing with too many abusive little punks lately:) But the arm bar should work.:D

LC:ai::ki:

[Duval Culpepper]

One handed push?

Grab the forearem, turn away, drop your upper arm over his elbow and sink your weight to the floor (called Hiji Osae or something like that - aka basic arm bar).
By turn away, do you mean kaiten?

[shihonage]

Grab him by his sleeve and by his shirt, pull him toward you and then release the arm that is now under his chin, into an uppercut.

Yay.

[L. Camejo]

By turn away, do you mean kaiten?
Not a full kaiten, more like a half turn (turn body 90 degrees) which will allow you to break his balance to one side and get his forearm into your armpit, from which you can leverage down upon the elbow with the side of your body by sinking your weight. If you want to you can still apply the nikkyo on his wrist with your other hand as his arm is trapped under your armpit, which just adds more leverage to the technique.

The Yoshinkan does this technique a lot, Judoka do it too from the ground mostly. Can't remember the name at the moment though, the Shodokan version is called Waki Gatame, but is more of a forearm lock than a leverage on the elbow. An idea of it can be seen here, http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm.

Of course you can just do a full tenkan and just splat him face first on the floor, or take his pushing hand, and his balance along with it, pivot the opposite direction and do koteageshi.:) Sort of like shown here http://www.ttac.0catch.com/tekubi.htm

There are a few options to a one armed puch imo.:)

LC:ai::ki:

[Bronson]

*We do something called imovable posture from both standing and seiza. Just before his push lands drop your center forward and down. If you get it right they bounce off...it's kinda funny.

*Was he standing with hips facing square forward? If so as he pushes turn 90* so you are on the inside of the push (by turning your hips you extend your reach so unless he had much longer arms you should be able to reach him but remain just out of his reach). As you turn extend an open palm strike into the lower portion of the breast bone or into the shoulder joint of the pushing hand. Important to have that dropped center thing going on here too.

*Move to the outside of his pushing arm, slide forward and grab him by the throat, place your leg behind his and choke slam him backwards. Actually if you place the palm of your hand at the top of his breastbone and gently curl your fingers around his neck it looks like a choke but isn't really. It freaks people out to suddenly have a hand at their neck but you're not actually doing any harm...unless of course you want to.

*Spit in his face then kick him in the nads.

*Tell him you want to take it outside. Make sure he goes out first then lock the door and call the police.

Soooo many options, just depends on what you want to accomplish.

Bronson

p.s. If you don't work from this attack in the dojo you should ask to (if asking is allowed).

[Kensai]

Corner step and make shihonage.

Shihonage is always the answer!

[PeterR]

What Larry said. Wakagatamae is the first thing I thought of too.

[WylMorris]

I'd be inclined to step around and go for Kotegaeshi, in a similar fashion to the shomen uchi form.

A) because he's naturally going to off balance if your no longer at his point of attack

B) It takes you out of the line of further attacks

C) Its easy and effective, and can go to either a pin or a release, depending on where you want to go.

and of course

D) Kotegaeshi rocks.

~wyl

[shihonage]

Duval, next time you ask for similar advice, make sure to specify "please recommend things which actually worked for you in a real life situation similar to mine".

Otherwise you'll get a lot of theoretical responses which are only useful for comedy value, like the majority of suggestions in this thread (no offense to anyone involved).

Yes indeed "go around him and do kotegaeshi" wee-haa !

[PeterR]

Duval, next time you ask for similar advice, make sure to specify "please recommend things which actually worked for you in a real life situation similar to mine".
OK - wakagatamae.

For Nikkyu in the Shodokan syllabus its the first of five reversals to atemi waza. In fact it is the reversal paired to shomen-ate which is, wait for it, a push.

It's also one of the reversals you see most often in full randori and surprise, surprise I've used it in a relatively unpleasant, non-dojo environment. For such a quick movement you end up with a whole lot of control.

I've done Nikkyo under similar circumstance but should have done wakagatame. Too easy to loose control from the former.

Never even considered Shihonage. Too difficult and even so the potential for serious injury is just way too high.

Kotegeishi - don't think so. The hands of the pusher are usually about chest high - that in itself makes positioning very difficult. Kotegeishi like shihonage (which we call tenkai kotegeishi) is too easy to resist if balance is not well taken.

Wakagatame is one of the few techniques I would drill the devil out of to make you effective using just Aikido techniqes in six months. It has the potential to go from relatively safe control to brutal with only a minor shift.

[shihonage]

Peter, I looked up waki gatame and it looks like something I usually shift to when I feel my "ikkyo ura" is about to fail, on my real life ... acquaintances.

I just thought it was called hiji-kime. The differences are blurry to me at this point... I use armpit to control the arm...

http://www.speakeasy.org/~shihonage/wakigata.gif

[PeterR]

Hi Alex - don't you just love terminology.

Kihon for Shodokan is uke's forarm controlled by your chest with the elbow above uke's. The hand that you see grabbing the arm in your picture grabs the wrist with the other arm locking it all togeather and applying kime to uke's arm. Tori's elbow should be above uke's elbow. It affords good control with lots of options.

The explanation accompaning the animated gif (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10b.html) is quite interesting in its own right.

[jk]

Isn't there a technique that's sort of a deflection where you extend the meaty part of your forearm and make contact with uke's strike?

I guess sort of like what you'd do with your arm if you were doing a forward roll, but not rolling.
That sounds like a wing block to me (bong sao in Wing Chun parlance). I've never seen it done in any aikido I've observed, so it'll probably be better to ask a decent Wing Chun instructor.

Hmmm...I'll try to screw around with it after aikido class tomorrow, just to see what happens. Thanks for the reminder.

[L. Camejo]

Aleksey, that is the name I was trying to remember from Judo - hiji kime. Iow the stripped down version of Wakigatame which is simply a lock on the extended elbow joint.

Wakigatame gives one a few more options and is a bit more giving if one does not want to snap the elbow. And yes it has worked for me in non dojo settings as well.

Peter, I've been told that Waki is one of those techs that are impossible to counter once it's on. What do you think?

LC:ai::ki:

[Kensai]

That Wakigatame to me is the Nikkyo pin from knife. But its very nice none the less.

[Ron Tisdale]

hiji shime is the yoshinkan nomenclature. Nice technique. Several different versions, from standing pin, reclining pin, to a kind of pushing throw after or during application. Here is one varient:

http://www.yoshinkai.org/waza/hijishime/april_mpg

Ron

[Bronson]

...specify "please recommend things which actually worked for you in a real life situation similar to mine".
Does it have to be me personally who used the technique? Is it ok to list it if I've seen it done or heard about it being done from people I consider to be very reliable?

If so then all the things I listed have been used in off-mat situations. Except the spit in the face one involved an attacker with nunchaku and ended in an irimi nage type of thing instead of a nad kick :D

Bronson

[PeterR]

Peter, I've been told that Waki is one of those techs that are impossible to counter once it's on. What do you think?
Impossible is well impossible.

Properly executed it is very tough to deal with and Nariyama Shihan apparently said that when Tomiki had hold of you it might as well have been the devil. He didn't even have to grab the wrist - the kime on the forearm was that strong. The other great advantage of the technique is the ability to escallate - control to break. Nasty.

Improperly executed. Well this guy (http://www.dokidoki.ne.jp/home2/unoaiki/P13.html) may by Nariyama Shihan's sempai but there is plenty wrong with the technique. The most telling problem is the leg placement - uke can sweep if only the arm could be rotated. Fortuneately for uke the grip allows it.

[Nacho_mx]

I probably would deflect the arm, do a Irimi step and go from there, depending on how agressive is the shoving. And Duval, the extension of your slightly curved arm is known as tegatana or hand blade, and it would be useful too.

[L. Camejo]

Peter, I see your point.

The story came from my instructor after he had trained with Nariyama, so I can see the linkage now. From experience, once locked in it took a great deal of "precise relaxation" and movement to get any sort of counter off. Of course most times I just had to tap out.:)

Ron, hiji shime is what I was thinking of, I remember reading about it in "Total Aikido".

Think I'll be working that tech next class.:) Just love the kime techs.

Another one that I used "in real life" was shomen ate, but this was only because the attacking push was aimed towards one shoulder, so I just entereed using the other one.

LC:ai::ki:

[Duval Culpepper]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I think the tegatana technique that Ignacio mentioned would probably be the most disarming move to perform.

Can't I do a reverse kotegashi move if I step in, grab behind his elbow, and turn my hips as well?
I probably would deflect the arm, do a Irimi step and go from there, depending on how agressive is the shoving. And Duval, the extension of your slightly curved arm is known as tegatana or hand blade, and it would be useful too.
Thanks for the clarification on that one.

[jk]

Oops, my bad. You were referring to tegatana. My first thought from your description was an elbow up, thumb down extension, which doesn't shout tegatana to me, but that's just me. Sorry for muddying the waters.

[Duval Culpepper]

Oh no problem, all advice is appreciated.

Is that tegatana though? Elbow up and thumb down?

[Largo]

It depends on what you want to do. If you notice, shoves tend to be slower and grabable (don't know if it's a word, but I'll use it anyways). Grab the shoving arm and pull. If you time it right, he'll fall down and feel like a fool. (note: I did this in school waaaay before doing aikido).

If you think too much about technique, you'll try to force it, and it'll come out wrong.

p.s.- edited to add that I was assuming from your age that it was just a guy being a dork and not really up to any serious trouble.

[Duval Culpepper]

Well, no, the guy was fairly intoxicated and angry. I assume given the opportunity, he would have started swinging.

But I imagine the more simpler techniques are sometimes more effective in these situations.

[PeterR]

But I imagine the more simpler techniques are sometimes more effective in these situations.
Simpler techniques are always more effective - that's pretty much a cardinal rule.

[Buddy Iafrate]

Hiji-shime is a bugger of a technique to counter. Only thing I've come close with is rolling out very fast, and can only pull it off when I know which move is coming. Seems like if sh'te gets it on fast enough, it locks out the far hip and I can't even get enough clearence to get rolled up.

Couldn't get your video to download Ron, will try again from home. Curious to see if there is any variation from our series of elbow lock pin/throws. There are a couple of variations I've seen demonstrated that lockout the wrist-elbow-shoulder too, quite an enlightening experience for Uke =)

[Chad Sloman]

Did you want to escalate or de-escalate the situation? Just about any technique involving locking the arm or throwing would have escalated the situation. Usually when I've been shoved in my life, I just walk away because the person doing the shoving wasn't really that serious about fighting (or else they would have punched/kicked me). But if you don't care about that, tenkan would probably be the easiest. Which could lead into several techniques depending on what he did. Or even a slight side step, make a new line and punch to the face/kick to the groin, whatever. Perhaps even a koshinage if they were pushing high and hard.

[mantis]

what would be a good technique to use against that?
the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, so Shomen-ate would be my first choice. step off the line of attack slightly, then a straight palm to his chin.

with his momentum coming forward and your momentum moving in, he will get thrown off balance quickly.

wakigatame is also a good one like was mentioned, but if there were multiple people on the aggressors side, I wouldn't want to be stuck controlling this guys arm.

A good shomenate will daze an individual and it leaves you free to deal with others, or just run.

Shomenate is the first reaction that i would do in almost any situation. All the other techniques will appear if it fails.

[mantis]

Another one that I used "in real life" was shomen ate
I just saw this comment.

What happened to the other guy Larry?

[L. Camejo]

What happened to the other guy Larry?
Basically what you said, he went off-balance, falling backwad into his two other pals who were standing behind him about to jump in. After using them to break his fall he ran at me and instead went for my pocket with his hand (aigamae katate dori - ish), controlling my sleeve with the other hand.

In that case, a step backward offline kuzushi and kotegaeshi had him heading for the asphalt.

Was fun:).

LC:ai::ki:

[Yo-Jimbo]

Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that?Duval,

As you will learn as you practice more and might surmise from the plethora of answers that your thread has received, there were many alternate things that you could have done. Notice that you reacted bravely and appropriately to your current skill, that is as much as one could ever expect of themselves.

I could suggest many techniques or combinations of techniques, but ultimately if I were there in the situation I would do what my instincts told me was most appropriate. You were actually there; what did/do your instincts tell you were other possibilities?

Also, remember that without being aggressive, it is still possible to act without waiting for "him" to act. It sounds to me like you did "disarm" this guy, because although he messed with your friend, he didn't mess with you. Perhaps he read in you body language that you could take care of yourself (whether you give yourself that credit or not), and he decided his aggression wasn't worth the risk anymore.

Keep practicing,

[Josh Bisker]

I've got a memory from a seminar weekend when we were all in a bar downtown after evening class. There are lots of us there, spilling out of a little booth or two and into the crowded main floor, where some guys are playing pool. One of these guys is having a poor night of it, he keeps losing to his friend and he drinks pint after pint (whooa, sorry, glass after glass ... damn english influence is getting to me) to make up for it. He gets to eyeing our group as a cause of his lack of success, and at some point when he has built up a lot of frustration and a lot of drunkenness, he starts heading over to us to get angry. Biiig dude, red in the face, bleary eyed, staggery, no telling what's going to happen. My sensei gets up and walks up to him with a big smile on his face. He intercepts the guy before he's gotten over to us and says, "hey man, how's it going? i'm jim, you want a beer?"

And in no time, sensei and this guy are talking and laughing like old friends, and the guy buys us a round.

On the one hand, I saw it as being like the conversational equivalent of an aikido technique, but on the other I thought that maybe it WAS an aikido technique in its purest form; proactively taking a situation into one's own hands in order to dispel a conflict. It was a very impressive thing, as far as i was concerned. Since then, when I have found myself in dangerous feeling situations, I have tried out the "want a beer?" atemi, and it has worked with phenominal success.

[Josh Bisker]

In the introduction to the book Budo (i think that's the one), there's actually a similar story about the Osensei getting between a bunch of farmers and a group of martial arts students who had tramped across their fields. The farmers were running at the MAs with sticks, angry at their tresspassing, and they probably would have gotten a whooping, but the Osensei appeared between the two groups bowing low in seiza and asking the farmers to forgive his children for their stupidity. And it worked. It's like the same thing as sidestepping and hitting them, only no one ends up hurt. Neat.

[adriangan]

i might do a ubi-tori or an imon-tori...or i'd probably just sidestep and deflect his arm.

[JessePasley]

Duval,

It seems you've received a lot of answers. I would have also suggested waki gatame (well, mostly because I'm enjoying learning it right now). However, techniques aside, you should really examine the nature of the 'authoritative shove' that immature and untrained people seem to like. Basically a shove is saying 'I want to hit you but I'm just a tad bit afraid to but I still want to be a man and look tough.' The shoving motion usually employed uses only a limited amount of forward motion, and most times the shover likes to back up a step to run his mouth some more. The part where he's doing this is a good time to spit in his face and wallop him in the face. Now that you've headed off the inevitable (ie, him hitting you), take him down with a technique.

if aiki randori has taught me anything, aikido techniques rarely work in isolation...make the opponent fight your fight.

But then again, if the guy is a rugby player or something like that and actually knows how to shove, then there's little you can do. Run home quickly, and cry.

[MaryKaye]

If you have lots of space and a surface you like, an interesting response to being shoved would be to do a full backwards roll and walk away. It looks impressive enough that the opponent might think twice, and yet it's not aggressive.

No good in a crowded place, though, and watch out for broken glass.

Mary Kaye

[L. Camejo]

If you have lots of space and a surface you like, an interesting response to being shoved would be to do a full backwards roll and walk away. It looks impressive enough that the opponent might think twice, and yet it's not aggressive.

No good in a crowded place, though, and watch out for broken glass.
Interesting concept.

Might also give the shover the mistaken impression of having succeeded in his endeavour to successfully attack (not to mention embarass) you. Empowering him to go do it to someone else in future.

Also a good way to place yourself in unnecessary danger by rolling into the unknown (or at least giving away your own upright posture for no tactical advantage).

Just my personal preference but I would tend not to give this advice to anyone hoping to defend him/herself. One can be unagressive without collapsing.

Just my thoughts.

LC:ai::ki:

[Nacho_mx]

I´d rather do a tomoenage than trying to awe the shover with my back roll ukemi (which is not very impressive to start with).

[L. Camejo]

Tomoe nage - that's an example of giving up your upright posture for a tactical advantage - e.g. a throw.

Nice one Ignacio. Scary on bumpy, uneven ground tho.:)

LC:ai::ki:

[Michael Karmon]

.

but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that
appologize and leave!

[Michael Karmon]

Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that

Thanks.
I respectfuly claim that any of the good intentioned participants in this forum who answered by naming a technique or a tactic are making a big mistake and a disservice to Mr. Culpepper.

There is no end to the number of variations on defence from Katadori, Katatedori or Tsuki that may be preformed and the variations grow exponentially with Hankawasa. These techniques depend on the size and shape of both participants, amount of alcohole consumed, lighting, space, does he belong to a pro fire arms community etc.

Do you really think you are helping the young and inexperienced Mr. Culpepper by suggesting X-Nage or Y-Wasa?
His Sensei is probably the only one to give him any technical advice

[mantis]

Do you really think you are helping the young and inexperienced Mr. Culpepper by suggesting X-Nage or Y-Wasa?

His Sensei is probably the only one to give him any technical advice
I think it's a great help. First of all, you have to be familiar with all types of attacks.

A shove for example has numerous responses that we have seen in this post.

By knowing different responses, you can test them out in the dojo and see which one works for you.

If someone uses these techniques on face value without researching and testing them, then he/she would probably do something inappropriate in the first place.

your instinct is what will save you, not anything written on this board.

[L. Camejo]

Speaking of "inexperienced", how long have you been training Duval?

[Robert Cowham]

I would recommend not allowing the push to contact - basically blocking to the outside.

Technique wise this can lead to various alternatives - depends on the situation/attacker/etc.

I have been taught that, especially for women (being attacked), it is not a good idea to let someone have hold of you - get them off straight away. A push towards the shoulder and your shoulder shouldn't be there.

Robert

[Duval Culpepper]

Speaking of "inexperienced", how long have you been training Duval?
About 2, 2 1/2 years now.

As I said before I'm not one to jump to a fight, but sometimes a physical response is neccesary.

Again, I thank all that have responded.

[MaryKaye]

LC writes:

"Might also give the shover the mistaken impression of having succeeded in his endeavour to successfully attack (not to mention embarass) you. Empowering him to go do it to someone else in future."

This is something I struggle with (mainly in verbal or social confrontations, as my life doesn't get me involved in physical fights). When do you have a moral obligation to resist even though it may escalate the violence, because otherwise you are implicitly condoning the initial attack? Where does that shade into "saving face" or "winning" when you could just as well have walked away?

Some years ago I was in a situation where a fellow group member liked to make unwelcome physical advances. I put him off firmly but I didn't make a fuss. He left me alone, but tackled other, more vulnerable women (as we found out later). What I did was 100% effective at protecting me, but it didn't improve our overall situation.

I don't have answers to these questions. I'm still trying to find that line for myself.

My experience of drunk people, though, is that it's very hard for them to learn from what you do. They may hardly remember it next morning. So "sending a message" strikes me of questionable value.

Mary Kaye

[George S. Ledyard]

Grab him by his sleeve and by his shirt, pull him toward you and then release the arm that is now under his chin, into an uppercut.

Yay.
Aleksey,

Whereas this is most assuredly effective, you could well find yourself with legal problems. In a situation like this it is not advisable to be the one that witnesses see as throwing the first blow. It is also advisable to stay clear of eyes and throat when the threat level is still low like this. (Factors justifying an elevated response would be any verbal indicators that the fellow wishes to REALLY hurt you, several friends also moving in on you etc.)

There are a number of techniques which can and do work in these situations. Trapping the pushing hand on your chest and executing a nikkyo is high on the list. Despite your protestations kotegaeshi is a good one here, also intercepting the hand and snagging the fingers for a finger lock is also excellent but these do require practice but no more so than any other technique.

Anyway, I would attempt to stick to control techniques as an initial response. Then, if the subject beats that attempt, he is likely to escalate the threat in a way that is obvious to everyone present and you can nuke him without seeming to be doing the escalating yourself.

[Largo]

I have a purely theoretical question. Assuming its a big double-armed shove, do any of you think it would be possible to do an ura-juji nage? (Yes, I am aware that for safety reasons it's not a good idea, but I was just curious)

[mantis]

Anything is possible, but is it probable.

Like most people here say, keep it simple. to get juji-nage, your attacker has to do certain things to make your success rate higher.

If he does, well then cool, if he doesn't and you still try to do the technique, it will fail.

But i think it's possible to do this technique just not that probable.

From a big double-armed shove, you can throw the attacker even with your hands behind your back. It's success rate would be very high, since you are eliminating variables like your hands/arms etc.

[Sonnyboy]

if he pushes u, make a side step then grab his wrist, pull him, slam his cute face to the wall :).. u dnt need to make it fancy . always the simple technique is the best way....

[Nick Simpson]

Theres a very effective self defence technique to use against someone shoving you or getting in too close to your personal space, as they approach you push one of their shoulders back and slightly pull the other shoulder, if done correctly it spins them round so you can restrain/choke them. Its the kind of thing you can only do on someone once, when they dont expect it.

[Tharis]

My sensei gets up and walks up to him with a big smile on his face. He intercepts the guy before he's gotten over to us and says, "hey man, how's it going? i'm jim, you want a beer?"

Talk about an irimi...wow. Powerful stuff. Shame I wasn't there to see it

--Tom

[stuartjvnorton]

If you have lots of space and a surface you like, an interesting response to being shoved would be to do a full backwards roll and walk away. It looks impressive enough that the opponent might think twice, and yet it's not aggressive.

No good in a crowded place, though, and watch out for broken glass.

Mary Kaye


Don't know how quickly I'd advocate going down at all unless there's a really good reason.
A backwards roll will just give the other guy a chance to kick you in the head or back or wherever while you're in the middle of the roll & you can't defend at all from there.

I'd either leans towards the hiji-shime, or attack the elbow with a cut down hiji-ate kokyu nage.

[shadow]

kick em in the nuts.

[ryujin]

Grab the arms, put a foot in their gut and fall over backwards hurling them far up over you head just like Cpt. Kirk would do in the old Star Trek series.

Its even more effective with his fight scene theme music playing in your head.

Da da da, dada da, dada da. :crazy:

[Chris Birke]

I'd reccommend little besides not falling down. A push isn't really an attack.

[ryujin]

If you have lots of space and a surface you like, an interesting response to being shoved would be to do a full backwards roll and walk away. It looks impressive enough that the opponent might think twice, and yet it's not aggressive.

No good in a crowded place, though, and watch out for broken glass.

Mary Kaye

It only looks pretty until the attacker follows the shove with a kick to your exposed kidneys or spine when your rolling over backwards.

:circle:

[Orihime]

Once you've moved out from the attck, there's a lot that can be done, I guess.

[PaulieWalnuts]

or a sacrifice tech. just before they close make contact enter staight throw and kokyo to chin, nose. with a feeling of ken awaze. that should knock em out for a while

[Ian Williams]

Peter, I looked up waki gatame and it looks like something I usually shift to when I feel my "ikkyo ura" is about to fail, on my real life ... acquaintances.

I just thought it was called hiji-kime. The differences are blurry to me at this point... I use armpit to control the arm...

http://www.speakeasy.org/~shihonage/wakigata.gif

This is exactly the same as the standing restraint "Arm Break" we use in Jujitsu... very effective.

[Duval Culpepper]

So how's that technique above work? Grab on top of the wrist, tenkan, and turn the arm over and bring it into your chest?

[GLWeeks]

Grab the forearem, turn away, drop your upper arm over his elbow and sink your weight to the floor (called Hiji Osae or something like that - aka basic arm bar).

Took the words right outta my mouth.... We went over this exact technique from tsuki attack in our last class....

[emptymind]

I've used tenkan into kote gaesh..

[ian]

I think it is important not to formalise the link between an 'attack type' and the response. It bypasses the major part of a real confrontation. For example, if someone is really overtly agressive you should not let them get close enough to push you with any power - as they get too close you must be proactive. Alternatively if it is your little brother pushing you, you can just move or turn out of the way. The techniques are superfluous to i. judgement of the situation ii. distance iii. timing, iv. blending.

P.S. pushing is often used by people in security to initiate a fight or flight response. i.e. you push someone away very hard - if they run, that is fine, if they come back, you know there will be a fight.

P.P.S. we call the above technique rockyo (technique no. 6), although we tend to keep our own head and spine straight!

P.P.P.S Somene tried to 'barge' in to me with their body once and I moved out of the way at the last moment and they fell over. If someone knows you do aikido they are looking for grabs - punch or kick them instead!

[emptymind]

kick em in the nuts.
very effective technique, works all the time!

[vanstretch]

Hi , Who has seen "Path beyond Thought"? Take Sensei sure used alot of finger waza on his ukes, that blended into sankyo, etc. I was told that the AI charachter in AIKIDO (first of 3, or the one on top), displays what appears to be the roof of a house, but is in fact, the blending of incomming energy. Is this too far fetched a thing to ponder ?

[Pauly]

I would say do nothing!

The reason I say this is that several years ago after a traffic accident wherein I tapped a guys bumper at a stop light (totally my fault). I got out to profusely apologize to the guy driving, who upon seeing the lack of damage to his car went apeshit and began screaming and behaving badly. I maintained my apologetic attitude and eventually the guy closed a distance of about six feet and shoved me, both hands to my chest. I took a step back with his shove, never raising my hands above my waist.

The next thing I hear is "STOP!" as two police officers who watched the traffic incident occur and were on their way over to offer assitance witnessed the assault and battery and intervened. The cops cuffed and put down on the dirty street the offensive guy and his friend who was just watching and grinning. To make an already long story short, I didn't press charges and they apologized and that was the end of it.

So, In my experience, the best defense against a shove is to do nothing. He he!

[paw]

A push isn't really an attack.

It is if you are standing on the edge of a roof. It which case it is not only an attack, but a lethal attack.

Circumstances dictate the tactics

Regards,

Paul.

[L. Camejo]

Circumstances dictate the tactics

Now that makes sense.

In some countries we are not so lucky to have cops on every corner - in fact, they tend to make sure to arrive AFTER things have already happened.:) This happened to me - got attacked by 8 guys (started with a shove) and the cops were only one block away and of no assistance at all.

Like Paul said...

LC:ai::ki:

[Aiki U-Dansha]

Hi. My Sensei always taught me that if someone pulls you, you make an irimi...if someone pushes you, make a tenkan e let him pass through (using any type of kokyu nage). In any case sometime not answering is the best way.....

[Aikidoiain]

I don't know the technical name for this, but I often use a finger lock then bend his arm behind him while using my other hand to lock his head away from you. It's very painful and effective (for him!).

Other than that a nikkyo or kotegaeshi while applying your two thumbs to the pressure points on the back of his hand. Even a simple ikkyo would do.

Or, you could push back, forcing him to push even harder - then when you "feel" he's really putting his back into it, just move to the outside and throw him in the direction he was pushing! Simple. :D

Incidentally, in this country, if someone you don't know lays a hand (or finger) on you, that's assault in the eyes of the law.

Best wishes,
Iain.

[Ian Williams]

So how's that technique above work? Grab on top of the wrist, tenkan, and turn the arm over and bring it into your chest?

From a straight punch, yes, deflection with the "rear" hand in a std defence stance into grabbing, enter and rotate, holding onto the arm and rotating it at the same time until your feet end up square with his, and his elbow directly under arm pit..

you can step out with the outside leg to lower your opposite shoulder and bring the lock on more.. very effective for the uninitiated.

The counter, is to forward roll out of it.

[raul rodrigo]

From a straight punch, yes, deflection with the "rear" hand in a std defence stance into grabbing, enter and rotate, holding onto the arm and rotating it at the same time until your feet end up square with his, and his elbow directly under arm pit..

you can step out with the outside leg to lower your opposite shoulder and bring the lock on more.. very effective for the uninitiated.

The counter, is to forward roll out of it.


If the hijikime/wake gatame is done properly, then uke's arm is rotated forwards, so that his elbow is pointing forwards instead of at the ceiling, his fingers are pointing forwards with the thumb on top, and your arm is in front of his elbow, then my thinking is a forward roll isn't going to work, because nage's arm blocks the move forward. The key for uke's counter of course is to read the hijikime and move before the nage's elbow moves in front of your elbow, very difficult to do in real world speeds. And I was taught that the lock isn't straight down, but horizontal, pulling the inner elbow toward hara while the outer arm pushes on uke's arm, trying to tuck uke's fingers into his own ear.

Just my two cents.


R

[L. Camejo]

If the hijikime/wake gatame is done properly, then uke's arm is rotated forwards, so that his elbow is pointing forwards instead of at the ceiling, his fingers are pointing forwards with the thumb on top, and your arm is in front of his elbow, then my thinking is a forward roll isn't going to work, because nage's arm blocks the move forward.

The thing about the version indicated above however is that for many, the instinctive reacton to having the elbow rotated forward so much that it points to the front is to turn the body with the rotation to relieve the pressure, allowing the elbow to bend slightly regardless of whether Tori's arm is there or not as the attacker's turning of the torso changes the angle of the elbow before Tori gets it in nice and tight.

If the Uke is bigger than you this puts him in a side on position with his rib cage pressed against your back very close to you with his arm half way across your chest from the attempted arm lock, giving him an opportunity to pick you up using his hips and the other arm (placed on Tori's waist, leg, trousers or belt) and lean back to drop you or drop on top of you as your feet leave the ground. This counter is practiced in some Judo but mainly in Jujutsu from my experience and is done from the ground in Graeco Roman wrestling. The setup is semi instinctive so it can be dangerous if Tori is not quick and keeps the kuzushi moving in the right direction. The throw looks similar to one of those WWE wrestling throws where someone gets picked up inverted by the waist and chest and dropped onto their side, head or back depending on the degree of leverage gained. The exact throw looks something like this (http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/obiotoshi.html) , but the relative body positions are reversed. The result is the same though, with Tori's balance being taken to the rear side.

Personally I think the elbow up variant is quicker and easier to apply and gets effective (i.e. causes pain and takes balance) faster than the elbow forward variant. The roll counter is possible, but can be eliminated by dropping to the floor/ground sharply, sending their roll crashing into the ground. :hypno:

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

[raul rodrigo]

If the Uke is bigger than you this puts him in a side on position with his rib cage pressed against your back very close to you with his arm half way across your chest from the attempted arm lock, giving him an opportunity to pick you up using his hips and the other arm (placed on Tori's waist, leg, trousers or belt) and lean back to drop you or drop on top of you as your feet leave the ground. This counter is practiced in some Judo but mainly in Jujutsu from my experience and is done from the ground in Graeco Roman wrestling.
Personally I think the elbow up variant is quicker and easier to apply and gets effective (i.e. causes pain and takes balance) faster than the elbow forward variant. The roll counter is possible, but can be eliminated by dropping to the floor/ground sharply, sending their roll crashing into the ground. :hypno:

Just my thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

Interesting variant, Larry. I didn't get far enough in judo to see obi-otoshi in randori. Is it an effective and common counter to wake gatame? The two times I saw wake gatame used in randori, the match was effectively over at that point.

[L. Camejo]

Hi Raul,

I'm not sure if it is a common counter to Waki Gatame, since most times when Waki is used in Judo it's from on the floor from my experience. I have seen some folks try to get the position I indicated above to get off a counter to Waki though, part of which led to my saying that the setup was semi instinctive (i.e. the turning motion to avoid the arm being locked out fully). The thing is when Waki Gatame is done against the elbow while it faces upward it becomes effective (i.e. painful) quicker than the forward facing version as a good bit more turn is required on the arm for the latter. The attacker has a bit less time to figure out what is happening and start to turn and squirm out of the lock. The opening for a forward roll escape is there, but if one pulls the waki gatame closer to one's centre (tightening the lock on the elbow) the attacker's elbow will snap from his own attempt to do a forward roll. In fact I use the roll escape a bit in Judo grappling, but I only risk it after I know I've loosened my elbow by this turning motion, allowing me to roll with my arm alongside my body instead of at an angle which can make it easy for the other guy to reapply the Waki Gatame.

I agree with you that when Waki is applied well that is usually the end of the match, the same goes for Aikido competitions too I think. It's a bit harder to get off in Aikido comps though.
Just my few cents.

LC:ai::ki:

[raul rodrigo]

Thanks for the input, Larry. Will check these ideas out on the mat tomorrow. In our judo dojo, waki gatame was our judo sensei's preferred counter to anyone who was stiff-arming and preventing you from entering with a throw. So it was a more of a standing technique in our dojo. Sensei also taught us that the second your elbow passes over his elbow, drop to both knees immediately, making counters very difficult. I agree that applying waki with the downward pressure is usually great at getting pain and compliance. But as both uke and nage, I seem to get a more calibrated, precise, aiki effect with the horizontal pressure once both knees are on the mat. Many times,when a nage is applying the downward pressure, once he's down on both knees, he tries to simply power down on my arm to get the tap, and unless he's sensitive enough to be exactly on top of my elbow, he wastes a lot of energy because the pain isn't right on the money. Have you experienced anything like this?

[L. Camejo]

Hi Raul,

Yes I have experienced what you are talking about a few times. This is why I try to keep the focal point of the technique as learnt in Aikido when I apply it in Judo and JJ training.

Another variant of Waki Gatame, the one we do most times in our style involves applying the pressure on the fore arm to lock the elbow and also control the wrist and hand of the attacker, eliminating the possibility of rolling out like I indicated. It also gives a few more options for control of the attacker.

A video of it can be found here - http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm

LC:ai::ki:

[Ian Williams]

if the arm bends when you're trying to apply that arm restraint, we move into an arm turning rotational take down (sorry about the anglicised technique names), as they are attempting to "pull out" of the arm break...

I like that counter to the counter of trynig to roll out of the restraint :) pity we never get to practice that sort of thing at full speed.

[xuzen]

Hello, I'm new to the boards. I'm Duval, a 17 year old student of Aikido from NYC.

Anyway, I was at a party recently where a altercation between a friend of mine and some guy was about to brew. Fortunately, I separated them, but the guy was pushing my friend with a lot of one-armed shoves.

Now as I said, I separated the two, but were he to have started pushing me what would be a good technique to use against that? I'm not one to escalate a situation to a fight, but sometimes action must be taken.

Thanks.

Hi Duval,

I am late with the reply (being reply #84), but its just that there are too many good threads in this forum. Anyway my thought would be...

Tomoe nage (stomach throw), Koshi nage, kokyu nage, tenkan and atemi his lower ribs, tenkan hiji ate kokyu nage, irimi tsuki, take your pick. But most important of all, once you started the fight, be extremely confident to end it in your favour.

Be at peace,

Boon.