So I took a Judo class today...

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[shihonage]

I just went ahead and took a class in the local Judo school.
I have no Judo experience. I have studied Aikido for 4 years.

It was a 2 hour class.
First we started with warmups which involved jogging around the mat, jogging around the mat backwards, sliding around the mat sideways, front rolls, backward rolls, that wheel thing that I cannot do, some stretches, 10 "Judo-pushups", a forward and backward "bridge" and other crap.

There was also a sort of a "punching sausagebag" which was put in the middle of the room vertically and we had to jump and roll over it. I did pretty well, asides from slightly tipping it in flight and knocking it over.
Twice.

Then we had to crawl, then crawl while sitting and using the back part of the feet, and then crawl backwards sitting while using the uh... basically... butt movement.

Then there was the technique portion, where we practiced some takedown, then seionage (not shihonage!) and then how to do seionage when the first takedown fails.

Apparently in Judo resistance is encouraged and so I gave resistance, probably too much, just having Aikido posture and shifting weight/stepping away/turning knees when I felt disbalanced, and pretty much stopping the other guy's technique.
So I easened up on it a bit because I didn't want to be the analog of Aikido's "bad uke". The rules are fuzzy to me at this point.

I kept trying to do iriminage instead of grabbing the guy's collar behind his neck and I always kept letting go of my grab after the throw, which is wrong in Judo.
I was also not close enough initially.

In Judo you really feel the consequences of a sloppy technique. REALLY.

After techniques there was the randori session which I stayed out of.
Some guys were a tad too young and teenage-y angsty for my taste(had the whole "ya lookin' at me ? ill give you evil eye" syndrome going), and I was not sure my ukemi could handle their possible lack of emotional self-control.

Some guy explicitly explained to me the differences between martial art and a sport art, and that people really aren't rewarded for breaking wrists in sport competitions.

After the class was over, I came up to a guy who looked relatively sane and calm, and asked him to do a light randori session with me, if possible minus the super high falls.

I managed to throw him using seionage, to my surprise.

Then another guy who came in late and wasn't sweating much, decided to spar with me. I was already out of breath.
Initially I locked him into a sankyo, and I could've locked him down but I didn't want to risk breaking his wrist as he didn't know the ukemi.

Soon enough I just stopped trying because I was really tired, and just was mostly on the defensive as he kept using the same hip throw to land me on the floor.
I was too tired to figure out how to stop it.

The instructor, a former Judo champion from Soviet Union (where I migrated from too, coincidentally), seemed initially like a big contrast to a typical Aikido Sensei.
At the end of the children's class (before the class I attended) when he was making kids spar, he was yelling things like "You're disappointing me ! Don't laugh, fight ! Don't just stand there ! Don't let him just throw you ! Why are you crying ? Cry later, fight now !" etc etc.

But during the adult class I saw that he was a man with powerful technique but not the typical "Cobra Kai evil master".
He has self control and he is kind, just not so kind when students are slacking off.

At the end of my after-class sparring with that newly-appeared guy, I finally got slammed into the ground too fast and my tired reflexes didn't cushion the fall, so I got my air knocked out of me.
Even my voice changed a little for a minute...

The prior times I've been thrown by this guy, however, Aikido breakfalls have served me better than I anticipated.
The mats in the dojo are also harder than mats in my Aikido dojo.

At the end of class the instructor demonstrated to me that he also knows Aikido techniques. He has great respect for Aikido, and his opinion is that it is a fast and deadly art.
"On the street, I would not use Judo. I would use Aikido." he said, and then did an intense version of one of those Aikido "float uke up and throw" throws.

He also demonstrated katate tori kokyunage, katatetori ikkyo, etc, all very energetic and lightning fast.

He said, that Aikido needs Judo to work, basically. Aikido is the highest level art and it cannot work without Judo.
He's a good guy.

Now I'm sitting here with slightly shaky hands, bruised fingers and some bruises on my legs which will probably only show up tomorrow.

I really don't know what am I supposed to do here.

I went to try Judo to experience the feeling of real competition and I got it.

But in our Aikido class we have some ex-Judo people who got fed up with it.
I can sort of see how some things about Judo dojo can start eating at them after a while - probably a higher injury rate and in general non-peaceful, competitive atmosphere having to do something with it.

On the other hand Judo will allow me to learn things that are simple, proven to work, and effective.
Ugly, but effective against a single opponent.

This instructor guy has JuJitsu/Aikido/Tai Chi skills which are backed up practically by his competitive Judo skills. If he can make Tai Chi work against Mike Tyson, I wouldn't be surprised.

Blah. So that's that.
I have a feeling that I may need Judo to have strong Aikido.
On the other hand, I have a feeling that my recent jiyu-waza sessions in Aikido have been improving, and I've been really getting into the whole flowing thing.

Studying Judo at this point will not confuse me in technique and footwork but it MAY confuse my mind and prevent the "Aiki" mindset needed for Aikido techniques. Blah.

I would be really curious to hear what someone like Peter Rehse or someone else who crosstrains in Judo has to say about this... to help me clear my mind.

[PeterR]

Keep going Alexsey but remember what Kenji Tomiki said.

[paraphrased]When you train Judo - train Judo, when you train Aikido - train Aikido.

Judo will add something to your overall training that Aikido generally misses so I think your Aikido will improve but that might not be clear right away. Leave the Aikido at home when you go to the Judo dojo for now. Don't even try to relate the two at this stage.

[Kensai]

I also thought the same.

I did Judo with only 6 months of Aikido behind me. I've now been doing Aikido for nearly 2 whole years (wow) and I believe Aikido to work without Judo as long as you work hard at your Aikido.

Judo, no doubt is great. But I felt that for every 2 steps I made forward with AIkido I would take one back with the total attitude and technique difference of Judo.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for Judoka and what they do, as they do it bloody well.

The key factor with Aikido training (in my very humble soon to be blue belt, (hopefully), opinion) is that Aikido NEEDS energy, you need to have Uke being honest, clear, powerful, fast and centered. If you have that then you're on your way.... I think.

[bob_stra]

Hey Aleksey

Other than the slightly disturbing kiddy name calling, this seems a 'typical' judo class. Ie: not a really top notch one nor a bottom of a barrel one. But a very 'sporty' club by the sounds of it? In those types of clubs, agression is encouraged, as tournament wins = going up in belt rankings.

General comments - the warm-ups are usually fun. Might be just me - we have lots of kids over here, so most classes tend to be ... interesting. Just last week, for breakfall practice, sensei grabbed a hanging rope (we share the floor with a gymnastic group), swung on it like a pirate, then did a breakfall. "Now you try" he sez to the kids ;-)

Re: Resistance in judo. I usually say to my partner "ok, let's go at X %" so that they know how much resistance to give. It sounds like you were working uchikomis (static throws). Typically, you start out with no resistance for the first set, then maybe work upto 30% "simple resistance" - generally just being stiff, not doing crazy counters etc. Kinda an unwritten rule there, unless stated otherwise.

Re: irimi nage. Just wait till you get to osotogari ;-) I keep doing that with irimi nage arm follow thru, much to my amusement.

Re: Angsty young guys. Yes. Protect yourself from them. They can and will hurt you. Mostly happens in 'sporty clubs', but you can run into it anywhere. Diffuse it with humor, or lay the smack down once to earn their respect.

Re: Judo needs Aikido to work. IMHO, Judo benefits from Aikido in illustrating body connections. The method of instruction in Aikido is quite different to that of Judo. Sometimes, amidst all the high flying fun, you miss out on the subtle details that Aikido excels at. (rotate this, to cause that to turn, to force this over here to happen, thus making the throw easier).

Aikido benefits from judo's rough and tumble. All the esotera in the world will do you no good once some gorilla grabs you and decides to play. You need to know how to shut it down in "real time", against a non compliant opponent. Take heart - judo defense develops a lot quicker than judo offense. (especially in newaza - groundwork)

Finally -

Blind fate seems to have steered me towards clubs where the judo is very much on par with Aikido methodology (more tech, less brute strength, non sporty clubs). Try another club - you might get lucky and find something better. I hear the Zen Judo guys are quite like that, if you can find em.

http://www.zenjudo.com/main.htm

or ask over at

http://www.judoinfo.com/discuss/

[bob_stra]

One last thing I forgot to mention

Judo is only "ugly" when equally skilled opponents match up and the will to win overcomes the will to learn. Sadly, we all do it now and again.

Try randori with a non psychotic black belt. You will be stunned at how beautiful judo really is.

I hope you go back for the newaza. Once you get callosuses on your fingertips and knuckles, you can consider yourself a True Judoka (tm)

[mantis]

Almost all of the old school Aikido instructors I've met have all been experienced Judoka. Ask them how that has helped their aikido.

Judo teaches you how to fall from a variety of quick throws (you can't roll out of them like in aikido). Learning to take gook Judo ukemi is very important, and will prevent most injuries.

There are 8 ways to unbalance an opponent in judo. Having a deep understanding of this can only benefit you.

Judo teaches you how to think on different lines of off-balance. (down the line of the feet, and perpendicular to that line).In that way you can set up uke into whatever position you like.

All circular motions in Aikido are really just linear breaks one after another (down the line, then perpendicular, then down the line, then perpendicular etc), So by studying Judo, you can get a deeper understanding of these off balances.

Judo is a grabbing (close contact) art, while Aikido is mostly at arms distance.

If you ever get to close to an attacker, Judo will definitely help you out, not to mention the ground work that you learn.

In Judo (like aikido) strength will come from those who lack technique.

As far as an ("Aiki" mindset needed for Aikido techniques), I'm not sure what this is, but I'm sure Judo won't hinder it.

hope this helps!

[mantis]

double posted???

[L. Camejo]

Happy you had fun Aleksey.

From my Judo experiences, I have often gained a deeper understanding of how to utilise kuzushi and manipulate Uke's balance in new ways for Aikido technique.

In ne waza the iriminage hand position tends to help me to get off strangle techniques really quickly (I love submission techs :)).

Bob spoke about the Iriminage hand position with osotogari. We did this technique in a self defence class (Aikido-based) recently. The resulting ukemi scared even the more seasoned Judoka on the mat when the 2 techs were combined. Guaranteed to dislodge anything in the lungs that ain't supposed to be there.:)

One thing I learnt recently about Judo though, even though in the early stages (or against equally matched competitors) it may look "ugly", there comes a point where the appearance of technical grace is almost identical to Aikido. As some Judoka get older and don't have the muscle strength to use to support poor technique, things start looking more and more like Aikido.

Just some thoughts. This thread reminds me more and more why I love Tomiki's approach to Aikido.:)

LC:ai::ki:

[mantis]

Off the top of my head, here are some aikido instructors that have also studied judo:

Kenji Tomiki

Kazuo Chiba

Senta Yamada

Yasuo Kobayashi

Karl Geis

Tetsuro Nariyama

Renjiro Shirata

Shoji Nishio

Gozo Shioda

John Waite

Koichi Tohei

[bob_stra]

There is one thing that bugs me (and may bug you).

While the breakfalls in judo are very effective in what they do, they don't really "flow/accept/yield" into the mat, esp side breakfall.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukemi3.gif

Does anyone have any advice on some kind of combo judo/aikido side ukemi that would result in less "splat" AND would work if thrown with a dynamic judo throw?

(yeah, it's a quest I'm on ;-)

(and PS: Is this stuff on the fabled Waite ukemi tape?)

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[Chris Birke]

Bob, this isn't precisely what you're after, but I think it's in the same spirit.

Certainly intruiging, nonetheless.

http://www.judoamerica.com/coaches/ukemi/

[bob_stra]

Ah yes, the ever controversial turnout.

I try and use em when falling from tomoe nage. I frikken hate that fall. Much nicer to cartwheel out. At best, you can land right into north and south, grinning at your own brilliance. At worst, you are forced to do a bridgefall at mid cartwheel, landing heavily on your feet, but still minimizing his the ippon. (note: this is a good way to break ankles)

Turnouts are pretty damn dangerous tho. I think we all had a long debate on here a while back - the consensus seemed to be that they're not true ukemi at all, but rather a counter technique. if I'm getting thrown, I'd rather (A) just get throw and setup something nasty for you on the ground (B) "Spoil" - jam, then drag you down with me & repeat A.

Combo aikido / judo breakfall -

This is the closest to what I'm speaking of (that I've seen online).

http://www.aikiweb.net/videos/ukemi/softbreakfall1.mpg

Not sure it'd work when thrown with taiotoshi, haraigoshi etc. But I sure wish it did ;-)

Getting slammed down 50 times in a row sure ain't beer and skittles.

Ok - gotta stop hijacking Aleksey thread. If anyone knows anything on this topic, sent me a private message.

[David Edwards]

Add Ken Cottier to that list, too. For him though, and a number of the ones on your list, they moved on to Aikido and never taught / trained in Judo again.

Coincidentally, I also went to a Judo class on Wednesday night, something I've been intending to do for quite some time, at my friend's club (that is, she is a student there, not the instructor).

Warm up was just a few quick gentle stretches, then into nage undo, that was pairing up and going through a throw until just the point where you have them and could throw them, then take it no further, and go back and do it a few times.

Next, light randori. This was fun, as I found they didn't know how to use their seika tanden, or, rather, didn't realise they had one. So I didn't exert myself at all, and just used my centre and posture to negate anything they tried to do, and just waited for a technique to hand itself to me on a plate for me to do (it always did within about 10 seconds). One amusing thing about submission fighting: Held above-mentioned friend down in Ikkyo, and she didn't submit, so I said:

"This is the part where you submit"

"But you're not hurting me"

"Oh.. right.. well.. if you insist"

"AAargh!" *tap tap*

Just speaking to her on MSN as I write this... turns out that that arm hurt the next day if she extended it... Eeps.

There was one guy, not very skilled (orange belt) but quite strong, on whom I wasn't able to put on dozen techniques a minute, and also learned that a lot of the non-Aikido techniques I know (from Jujitsu and Ninjutsu, mainly) are illegal in Judo. As I discovered when immobilizing his arm with acupressure / doing a triangular leg choke in a way that admittedly would snap his neck if I took it too far, but is safe when done in a controlled fashion, etc.

We had a short session of refereed competition, and in my own competition, I was against a blue-belt I hadn't met before... was carefully minding my centre, keeping my posture, letting him use up all his strength (and he judging from how much he was leaping about and running around and the expression on his face, he was) then he made quite a good hip throw and I... forgot where I was (i.e., not in an Aikido dojo where we would co-operate) and took ukemi for him, lol. And, what's more, because my ukemi was good, it made his throw look excellent, and he got full marks. Hehe, never mind.

We played a game whereby we all held each others' sleeves in a circle, and tried to sweep the legs of those next to us. I found people on both sides of me pulling away from me rather than trying to attack me, net result being that I was struggling not to be pulled apart most of the time... swept a few ppl away in the process though :)

We did quite a bit French Randori afterwards, in which we would throw once, then our partner throw once, then we throw once, etc. I grabbed a guy I hadn't been able to play with before, an immature prat that my friend had told me about, and he'd been pretty offensive to and about her while I was there too... so, I let him try to throw me for about five or ten minutes at a time, while I just stood in kamae posture and did my very best (and, for once, succeeded, lol) to exhibit immovable posture (fudo no shisei, IIRC). All the while asking him things like "What's your favourite throw, do that one... what's your best throw, try that (all the while keeping a pleasant demeanour), I tell you what, I don't know much Judo, show me some of the easiest throws that you need to do for yellow belt (and I didn't let him do them sucessfully, was just an immovable uke for him... he was a green belt btw)... eventually he gives up, and says, you have a go, so I throw him once, quickly but safely, and say "Your go again", and this goes on for ages... Perhaps mean of me, but I think he deserved it. I'll admit to "helping" him to get up (using sankyo) a few times (gently, but enough that it hurt just a little)... does this make me a bad Aikidoka?

Anyway, the Sensei here said that he had quite a respect for Aikido, and knew my Sensei from a long time ago. He seemed a nice guy who took things quite light-heartedly, and was not your stereotypical macho tough-guy Judoka. Enjoyable as the class was... I don't think I actually learned any Judo from it. IMHO, Judo's a good thing to learn... but for me... not in this life. Too busy with Aikido and other things.

[mantis]

Add Ken Cottier to that list, too. For him though, and a number of the ones on your list, they moved on to Aikido and never taught / trained in Judo again.
David, your right about that. If anyone's instructor has taken Judo, ask them what they got out of it, and how it surfaces in their Aikido.

It would be interesting to find out.

[shihonage]

Thank you for all the replies.

I think I found a better way to sum up why my mind is at unrest regarding this.

I think I have to choose between Judo and Aikido.

A person has only one set of reflexes, and I want to react properly when my life/well-being is on the line.

1) I'm not interested in competitions.

I'm interested in survival.

Aikido seems much better suited for that.

It goes hand in hand with what reality self-defense schools teach.

I don't want to move my hips INTO someone who has a knife.

I don't want to lock myself to one opponent and land with him on the ground.

2) I have been able to avoid fights since 12th grade.

Is it really worth it for me to shift into training mode where I come home feeling beaten and bruised every time ?

Where conflicts I have at work only get escalated instead of dissolved, in my head ?

3) Judo is a sport.

One thing I forgot to mention is that Judo guys who tried to throw me actually fell down several times while I did nothing but keep my balance.

Especially the last guy, who actually went full force/full speed trying to get his hips under me and bam, he's on the floor.

That was hilarious. He probably had 10lbs on me.

In real life when a Judo person tries to close the distance like that, not only their chances of a throw are far worse with an Aikidoka, but they will get punched in the head, kneed in the face, gouged in the eyes, uppercut, etc.
An Aikidoka has a sense of atemi when the comfortable distance has been breached.

Sport is not survival, and I don't want sport to give me wrong habits which may cost me when I'm attacked by some moron in a bad neighborhood.

Aikido stuff which doesn't work with a Judoka due to rules, WOULD work once I land a solid hit on their face immediately and then move.

A grab interrupted by a punch in the face (or two) WOULD allow for a nikkyo or whatever.
In fact nikkyo HAS a punch or two built-in as they go together with footwork.

I don't mean to insult Judo, and maybe this sounds arrogant from someone who's been only to one class, but hey, I have to make some kind of decisions.

I've been able to use Aikido just fine recently vs. dedicated sincere punches and kicks from a friend, did a perfect yokomen shihonage without them even feeling it, and all that.
Even did perfect ikkyo ura while riding resistance from their punch as it was unfolding.

Aikido allows me to hold my own when grappling with a much heavier man (like my father or just a much more skilled man, like my Judo uncle). Sure I can't really throw them, but I can, for the most part, prevent them from throwing me.

If I do keep at Judo, thats going to be my main mode of behavior in randori...

Be centered, negate throw attempts, conserve energy.

If they fall on their ass as a result of my evasion, great.

If not, whatever.

[David Edwards]

Well said in many places. I think *rereads post* yes, I agree with everything you said in your last post there :) But hey, I'm biased. But then, I suppose that bias is born out of reason.

[Duarh]

On a somewhat related line. . .something that caught my eye in Aleksey's original post. . .

The fact that a judo instructor appears mean while teaching judo really seems to have little connection with the 'actual' meanness of the instructor :). My original aikido teacher was also a judo 4th dan and big in the sport during Soviet times - he now teaches judo to a large group of younger folks who often go on to win international competitions on the junior level. It's sometimes really scary to watch him teaching a judo class - shouting, extorting, reprimanding severely, driving the kids up and down ropes without reprieve. . . Then we go in for an aikido class, and suddenly he's polite and very controlled - still strict, but also more formal and respectful, a different person altogether.

I think this probably has to do with two things - 1) the difference between teaching a kids' class and an adults' class 2) the difference in idealogy between competetive judo training and aikido training. Most folks do aikido for the enjoyment they get out of it - winning competitions really is not a factor - while in competetive judo people have different motivations and are, therefore, ready to accept different levels of external motivation.

I sure am not qualified to talk about how "effective" judo is - I just know I prolly wouldn't enjoy it that much because of how "messy" it always appears to me :). Belts and gis all over the place. . .:D

[willy_lee]

Entirely correct.
I've been there a few times.

You mentioned the hard mats. I also thought they were pretty darn hard at first. After the first couple nights, they started feeling soft again though. :)

After a month at judo, I went back to an aikido class. I was okay during class doing set techniques, but I tried doing some jiyuwaza afterward and ... it was horrible :) I kept getting mixed up in my head and doing stuff sorta halfway between judo and aikido and not doing well at either. I think I'll try to keep them more separate for a while.

I love the osotogari/iriminage combo. Lately I've been tending to throw more hip into iriminage anyway; adding in the leg sweep is a very natural-feeling addition. I still suck at it though :)

Re: Be centered, negate throw attempts, conserve energy. that's good strategy for some things, but not for learning judo, if that's what you want to do.

Aleksey, you have to come back for some newaza nights! That's so much fun :)
Belts and gis all over the place. . . I think this is because most people, in any gi-wearing art, do not tie their belts correctly. The way I learned to tie my belt, it rarely ever comes untied, even during newaza.

=wl

[Charles Hill]

Off the top of my head, here are some aikido instructors that have also studied judo:
You forgot Morihei Ueshiba.

Charles Hill

[James Whatling]

I guess that as long as you enjoyed the lesson , it was time well spent. I think sometimes there is too much of "Aikido better that Judo" , but to me that is like saying "Rugby is better that American Football" There both look kind of the same to someone who has no idead but if you play both you will know that they are very different. I don't think that should things such be compared. Just enjoyed in they onw time ans space.

It's just what I think.

[jk]

Aleksey, I'm not trying to be rude, but other than maybe your uncle, did have a chance to try randori against assorted judo yudansha? I think judging judo by how you do against the mudansha might not be very helpful in evaluating judo. I wasn't too impressed with aikido myself until I got a chance to feel a yondan's technique.

It might be a good idea to try being defensive (being centered, negating throws)against a few decent judo yudansha. The last time I tried that, I became an ashiwaza test dummy. Luckily, I had plenty of experience being kicked in the legs.

[Kensai]

Aikido may not be better than Judo, but RUGBY is better than American Football.....

[willy_lee]

Aleksey said:
Then we had to crawl, then crawl while sitting and using the back part of the feet, and then crawl backwards sitting while using the uh... basically... butt movement.
I thought this was pretty interesting. It's basically shikko, except using the cheeks of your buttocks instead of your knees. Once I realized that it was shikko I could use most of the same body control.

Is there a Japanese name for this kind of movement?

Interesting all the different ways of moving there are ... once I read about a teacher of harimau silat who could stand straight up and move along the mat using nothing but his toes to pull himself along. I thought this was an interesting, but useless, parlor trick, until I read later that during grappling he would use his toes as extra "fingers" and in particular was known for his extremely painful pinches using his toes.

=wl

[shihonage]

Aleksey, I'm not trying to be rude, but other than maybe your uncle, did have a chance to try randori against assorted judo yudansha? I think judging judo by how you do against the mudansha might not be very helpful in evaluating judo..
The teacher did show me some things and his technique was a lot less jerky and more graceful than his students.

Once he took the balance he had me under control and then he could do something akin to Aikido's spiral taking-of-more-and-more balance.

On the other hand, I AM a mudansha in Aikido, so I guess it would make sense to compare to Judo yudansha if I was one myself.

[David Edwards]

I read about a teacher of harimau silat who could stand straight up and move along the mat using nothing but his toes to pull himself along. I thought this was an interesting, but useless, parlor trick, until I read later that during grappling he would use his toes as extra "fingers" and in particular was known for his extremely painful pinches using his toes.
For some time I've had this idea wandering around my head that it would be possible to use one's toes to do acupressure techniques, if one developed sufficient toe strength and control... but then the sensible part of me says "Yes David, but learn to do it properly with your hands, first"

[Chris Birke]

Biting is the devil. Pinching is his pitchfork.

[willy_lee]

The teacher did show me some things and his technique was a lot less jerky and more graceful than his students.

...

On the other hand, I AM a mudansha in Aikido, so I guess it would make sense to compare to Judo yudansha if I was one myself.
One thing you should know is that this is a fairly new judo club; there is almost no-one there (not counting yudansha) with more than 4-6 months of experience.

=wl

[kironin]

Off the top of my head, here are some aikido instructors that have also studied judo:

Kenji Tomiki

Kazuo Chiba

Senta Yamada

Yasuo Kobayashi

Karl Geis

Tetsuro Nariyama

Renjiro Shirata

Shoji Nishio

Gozo Shioda

John Waite

Koichi Tohei
just because they have studied judo proves what ?

several are Tomiki lineage and some of the others did Judo before Aikido was well known or even called aikido. Judo was part of school phys. ed. in Japan before WWII. They didn't study Judo to improve their Aikido. They were not aware of aikido when they did Judo.

In fact Koichi Tohei Sensei was generally dissatisfied with judo at the time he was referred to O-Sensei 1939.

I did Judo for a while. I have a healthy respect for those who are really good at it. It's fun but if you don't have a passion for it, it is certainly not necessary IMO to study it to do aikido or be better at aikido.

that said, I can hardly say there is any thing wrong with cross-training, since I do Iaido and have been getting into Systema. But I really enjoy training in those for their own sake.

Craig

[Edward]

I have done judo for about 7 years. To think about it now, all what I got from it is bad knees and a lot, really lot of stress. Performance was crucial, and since I was not particularly good at competitions, I was always looked down at by my dojo mates. Training was fun though, and I enjoyed it, especially during periods when there were no imminent championships and atmosphere was relaxed.

Technically, I believe that judo and aikido could not be more different because they are based on completely different concepts. My previous judo experience has helped me a lot in my aikido progression in the beginning, but it soon became a hindrance when I reached somewhat a higher level.

I wouldn't recommend doing both though. The natural progression would be to start in judo and then move to aikido. Doing the opposite doesn't seem very logical to me.

Cheers,

[PeterR]

just because they have studied judo proves what ?
Relax - I don't think he was trying to prove anything.
several are Tomiki lineage
Geez you make it sound so dirty. None of the above went to Judo from Aikido but several do say that one should experience Judo to better understand your Aikido. This is mainly because of the way Aikido is generally trained rather than technical insights which also can be gained.

I really don't know that much about the Judo background of most on the list. Tomiki was prefectural champion and one of the top national players, Nariyama was considered one of the top High School players but ended up tossing it for Aikido, Senta Yamada was primarily a Judo man that also taught a little Aikido. I guess Judo experience can range from one of many in school (not everyone did/does Judo) to Dan ranked. The wheat is sorted from the chaff at Nidan in Judo - how many of the Japanese in that list were Nidan and up.

[L. Camejo]

Technically, I believe that judo and aikido could not be more different because they are based on completely different concepts.
From my experience I can't agree with the above statement (though I can understand how some may feel this way). Imho aiki no ri is merely an extension or evolution of ju no ri. At the JAA site here (http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi3.html) we have some comments on the common principles between Aikido and Judo.

This chart may also help http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi5.html

I personally believe that the main difference lies in the ma ai used (grappling distance instead of striking distance) than any other technical aspect. I've been to some Judo dojos that train for self defence more than sport. During the self defence training a lot of techniques done are basically aikido kansetsu waza, and are applied using the same principles.

From my experience, if one applies basic Aikido principles of tai sabaki and kuzushi, one can be very effective at judo randori (at least being very hard to throw), an awareness of how to effectively apply tegatana and coordinated hand/hip motion helps the Aikidoka a lot in ne waza as well.

Just my thoughts.

LC:ai::ki:

[Michael Neal]

Hey folks "light randori" is basically taking turns throwing eachother with light resistance. You allow people to throw if they get good kushushi. To say that you went in to a Judo class and were throwing Judoka around is kind of unbelievable. If you did throw people it is because they let you.

I welcome you to come to my Judo school (we are only a recreational sport Judo club) and try applying those moves. You may pull them off on rank beginners but unless you are something like a sandan in Aikido you will likely get dumped over and over again. And try them doing full randori not "light."

[shihonage]

Hey folks "light randori" is basically taking turns throwing eachother with light resistance. You allow people to throw if they get good kushushi. To say that you went in to a Judo class and were throwing Judoka around is kind of unbelievable. If you did throw people it is because they let you.

I welcome you to come to my Judo school (we are only a recreational sport Judo club) and try applying those moves. You may pull them off on rank beginners but unless you are something like a sandan in Aikido you will likely get dumped over and over again. And try them doing full randori not "light."
First of all, going to this dojo is not the first time I've experimented with someone from another art.

Second of all, the first student was "light randori".

The other student has gotten quite serious.
We were moving around together with a mutual grab, trying to set up a throw.
Or at least, he was.
He negated most everything I tried.

I got him into a sankyo once, he fell another time as he invested himself into a throw which I evaded, but after that most of the time he was landing me on the floor.

I'm not saying that Judo is easy. Judo is tough and I respect it.

I'm quite sure that you're a tough guy Michael and that you can make a fillet out of me.

[Michael Neal]

maybe you could make a fillet out of me too Aleksey I have no idea of your skill level, other martial arts, fighting experience, etc.

I am just saying that it is very unlikely most Aikidoka could walk into a Judo dojo like several here have written and pull off all kinds of submissions and throws on their first day of class. In fact even in heavy randori I let beginners have a few throws because I really do not want to discourage them and randori is about practice not competition.

It is also impossible to judge much of anything by one or even several classes. If you really want to test your skills enter a Judo competition or ask somoene in class to go randori with you holding nothing back.

i do agree that you should probably stick to one or the other Judo or Aikido because both are rather dmeanding and take alot of time and patience to learn and progress.

I like Aikido I just don't think the training methods really prepare you to walk into a Judo dojo and start putting the smack down on people unless you are really really big, super strong, or have tons of varied martial arts experience and fighting experience.

[Red Beetle]

Wow,
I am surprised at some of the remarks made on this thread.

I teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido.

I totally disregard all of the Asian philosophical 'meditative' non-sense that can be found in all three (Brazilain Jiu-jitsu does not generally have this problem as does traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu).

Now, since I have been teaching, I have had two challenge matches with black belts in Aikido, and one challenge match with an expert in Hap-ki-do.

The first challenge match I had with a black belt in Aikido was a quick match. Clinch, takedown, mount, back-mount, and finished him with hadaka-jime (mate-leon--or the sleeper). No punches were thrown. He really tried his game. Problem was, I know the game too. I was not going to let him exagerate my momentum and break my balance. Once I had the clinch, he was outside the realm of Aikido. I was impressed with his Aikido technique, but he was more interested in challenging me. I encouraged him to return, just to practice Aikido with me if nothing else (he was good at it), but he never came back.

The second challenge match that I had with an Aikido black belt happened last year. He teaches the system in a small neighboring town near my own. He came into my school, demanded to see my Aikido technique. I was teaching a jiu-jitsu class, but since there were very few students there, I agreed to demonstrate some of my Aikido. I demonstrated the unbendable arm and ko-te-gaeshi. Then this guy comes on to my tatami mats with his shoes and starts contradicting me. Well, I explained to him that if all he knew was Aikido, and he was not versed in Judo or Jiu-jitsu, then he would not have a grappling foundation to fall back on should his Aikido fail (guys, most teachers of Aikido that I know are also black belts in Judo--and for a good reason). He did not like the sound of that. He insisted that he could handle me. No problem, I didn't like his attitude, so I challenged him right there. After I got the clinch, he tried a half-ass version of O-soto-gari, and I laid him down like a baby. I took the mount (tate-shiho-gatame) and pinned him. He struggled a bit (even tried to claw my eye), then asked me to let him up. I said, "No, you have to get up yourself. Use your Aikido."
After he gave up again I let him up. I won the match without applying a choke or joint-lock. Niether Aikido practitioner was hurt during my challenge matches with them. And this is why I like Judo and Jiu-jitsu (as well as Aikido), you can often defend yourself fully, and without suffering injury, and without injuring your opponent.

Although Hapkido is not exactly the same as Aikido, my challenge match with the Hapkido expert was even quicker. I armbarred the guy in 7 seconds. He was trained by one of my first teachers. A Korean master at Hapkido and Yudo (that is how the Koreans say Judo).

I have used Aikido in real fights. It will work if the attacker is committed to his attack with great force, and if you can recognize his attack in time to pull off the Aikido tactic that best suits his attack. This is easier said than done. It is safer just to close the distance and establish a clinch.

I have even used Aikido in wrestling matches with Jiu-jitsu players. I caught a guy pushing really hard ( he clearly advertised it) and he ended up on his face. I have only pulled this off once though. It was funny. He gave up after going face down and started laughing himself. The last time I tried to capitalize on a jiu-jitsu player pushing with an Aikido tactic ended up with me being slung across the floor ( I was a bit late).

Remember, Aikido will work, but it has to be under specific conditions. If those conditions are negated, then so is Aikido. That is why I recommend learning Judo and Jiu-jitsu first, then Aikido. Aikido is like a rifle. You can use it to take care of an adversary at a long range. Judo is like 357 magnum and Jiu-jitsu is like a sawed off shot-gun (you don't want to be in front of that gun when it goes off).

So, study them all, but know your limitations.

Red Beetle

Hey, go to my web-site!
www.kingsportjudo.com

[CNYMike]

I think I have to choose between Judo and Aikido.


Why? I'm doing five at the moment; my Kali instructor is focusing his attention on three HUGE arts. I think you can handle two, and that they both hail from the same culture (Japan) makes your life easier. Trust me on this one.

If you like both, have the time and money to do both, and the senseis in each don't mind you're doing both, do both.

Mike "Mr. Crosstraining" Gallagher. ;)

[kironin]

I teach Judo, Jiu-jitsu, and Aikido.

...

I was impressed with his Aikido technique, but he was more interested in challenging me.

...

The second challenge match that I had with an Aikido black belt happened last year. He teaches the system in a small neighboring town near my own. He came into my school, demanded to see my Aikido technique.

...

Red Beetle

Hey, go to my web-site!
www.kingsportjudo.com



Your website makes no mention of Aikido.

what numbskulls would be visiting a Judo school to challenge the teacher's Aikido technique ?

I can't imagine anyone who really had a good understanding of Aikido.

[kironin]

I totally disregard all of the Asian philosophical 'meditative' non-sense that can be found in all three (Brazilain Jiu-jitsu does not generally have this problem as does traditional Japanese jiu-jitsu).



This attitude is unfortunate for your students.

Your ability to apply Aikido techniques might just be a bit broader if you didn't disregard an important mental component of the art.

however given the focus on sport judo and fighting, this attitude is not surprising.

[Red Beetle]

Your website makes no mention of Aikido.

what numbskulls would be visiting a Judo school to challenge the teacher's Aikido technique ?

I can't imagine anyone who really had a good understanding of Aikido.

Craig,

You got a great web-site!

You are correct when you state that my website makes no mention of Aikido. I probably will not have anything Aiki-related on the site for some time. The reason is because I do not teach Aikido to beginner students unless they absolutely demand it. At my old school location I had a sign up advertising for Aikido. I got a steady flow of people interested in only Aikido. Now, I think you should be able to defend yourself, and most people get into the martial arts for that specific reason. I will not lie to people when they ask me if they can defend themselves with only Aikido. I tell them nicely that unless you are EXTREMELY good it is not likely that you will be able to handle most all-out-fighting situations against the 275lbs Irish Brawler.

My first teacher was a master at Hapkido and Yudo. I watched him fight several challenge matches against much larger adversaries. We had witnessed his amazing ability to use Hapkido to spin guys around, then project them thru the air effortlessly. We had witnessed his agility when we saw him execute the high spin kicks of the Korean systems too. But when it came time to fight the challenge matches there was no Hapkido, no Taekwondo, but only Yudo. And man was he rough. He was known for choking adversaries out while they were still standing, and then he would throw them!! Once the impact of the throw actually woke up one of his opponents. So, he choked him out again. Now, he was a business man, and when we asked him why he never kicked or did any of Hapkido in the challenge matches, but only did Judo, he would smile and say, "Oh, good! Now you want to do Judo too!" He never would answer us straight out, but we got the point. He was good at making money. If he knew a person was not tough enough for his Judo class (and man was it a rough class to go thru) he would tell the person, "You are made more for Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kumdo...).

I could run my school like that. I probably would make more money. But, I want people to be able to intelligently defend themselves. One might look at developing a fighting system the same way one would look at building a house. You first will start with the foundation (on the ground). Then you put up the structure. Then you put the roof on. The foundation would be Katame-waza (grappling--Brazilian Jiu-jitsu--Kosen Judo..). Next you need some close range tachi-waza (nage-waza--Judo, free-style, Greco-Roman throwing tactics). Finally, you need some long range tachi-waza (Aiki tactics, maybe a good understanding of western boxing, some Thai, ect.).

So, to be honest, if you want to learn the best ground technique, then you need to study Gracie Jiu-jitsu, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and Kosen Judo. If you want to learn the best way to throw using the other guy's jacket, then you need to study Kodokan Judo and Modern Olympic Judo. If you want to learn the best way to throw without using the other guy's jacket, then study Free-style, American Folk-style, and Greco-Roman wrestling. If you want to learn the best way to re-direct, and then project (or immobilize) an attacker who is completely committed to his advertised punch, kick, or charge, then you can't beat Aikido.

I personally think that it is best to learn proficiently the 67 official throws of Judo before embarking on a serious study of Aikido projections. It doesn't seem that many agree with me on this point at this forum. That's o.k. The better my Judo gets, the better my Aikido gets. To me, Aikido is just a very subtle form of wrestling. Any good wrestler can throw his opponent effortlessly when the opportunity is right. Any good wrestler can make throwing look easy against one who is not trained to wrestle. After all, Judo is simply Jacketed wrestling.

It really is quite the experience to get a hold of a high level Judo player who is well trained. I have wrestled some who applied no pressure. They did not pull or jerk. They did not push or shove. You felt like you were holding an empty jacket when you finally got your grip (kumi-kata). You felt nothing as you watched this guy blitz into position, then a quick brush and over you went !!! I remember getting up smiling and thinking to myself, "How is this guy doing this without the rough strength?" But, I was young then. I worked with the same guy recently, and when your skill is close to the other guy's, then strength, speed, size, weight, conditioning, and innovation all become tools which you should use.

Aikido has its place. It should not be ignored. It should be learned and studied. The techniques should be promoted and developed. I love to watch good Aikido. I love to learn good Aikido. I love to see people practice good Aikido. I once heard a teacher explain the place of Jiu-jitsu, Judo and Aikido like this:

He said,
"Jiu-jitsu, Judo, and Aikido are like three sisters."

"Jiu-jitsu is the Oldest sister. She has a bad temper and likes to fight. She is only interested in winning fights. She has fought many times and knows what is effective from countless experiences. Since she will fight anyone, she must have excellent technique to secure victory. You know what to expect when she comes for you, but still, it is not easy to stop her. And, if you had to be in a fight, you would want her standing next to you, and on your side." :grr:

"Judo is like Jiu-jitsu's younger sister. She is more interested in competing in events and not actual combat. She is more interested in the glory of competition, and not always survival. But she can and will fight if pushed. Years of training and competition has made her tough. And remember, she grew up with big sis who taught her a few tricks." evileyes

"Aikido is the youngest sister. She is not interested in war or competition, but she is familiar with its background. She seeks a peaceful solution always. She is also the most beautiful of her sisters. She is very graceful to watch. You always feel good just being in her presence. But, she is not incapable of defense. She can manage quite well on her terms, and she is very tricky. Even still, one should be aware that even if she fails, she still has two older sisters who jealously guard and watch over her. Because they are all sisters, then you can bet that they are not far from her." :)

The point of his story was that a person should be well versed in each of the three styles. Get to know these sisters well. Know when it is time to call on each of them.

Train hard guys.
Red Beetle

www.kingsportjudo.com

[Red Beetle]

This attitude is unfortunate for your students.

Your ability to apply Aikido techniques might just be a bit broader if you didn't disregard an important mental component of the art.

however given the focus on sport judo and fighting, this attitude is not surprising.

Craig,

please go to my website and read my Newsletters for the months of January and February. They are brief articles which explain why I don't buy into the Asian philosophy/religion in Aikido, Judo, and Jiu-jitsu.

I think you will understand my position better. I am not so combative (at least I don't think so).

Train hard!

Red Beetle

www.kingsportjudo.com

[Ron Tisdale]

I personally think that it is best to learn proficiently the 67 official throws of Judo before embarking on a serious study of Aikido projections. It doesn't seem that many agree with me on this point at this forum.

I like what you've said so far, and the 3 sisters story was pretty neat. :)

Welcome to the forum, hope we get to train together sometime.

Best,
Ron

[Michael Neal]

We did quite a bit French Randori afterwards, in which we would throw once, then our partner throw once, then we throw once, etc. I grabbed a guy I hadn't been able to play with before, an immature prat that my friend had told me about, and he'd been pretty offensive to and about her while I was there too... so, I let him try to throw me for about five or ten minutes at a time, while I just stood in kamae posture and did my very best (and, for once, succeeded, lol) to exhibit immovable posture (fudo no shisei, IIRC). All the while asking him things like "What's your favourite throw, do that one... what's your best throw, try that (all the while keeping a pleasant demeanour), I tell you what, I don't know much Judo, show me some of the easiest throws that you need to do for yellow belt (and I didn't let him do them sucessfully, was just an immovable uke for him... he was a green belt btw)... eventually he gives up, and says, you have a go, so I throw him once, quickly but safely, and say "Your go again", and this goes on for ages... Perhaps mean of me, but I think he deserved it. I'll admit to "helping" him to get up (using sankyo) a few times (gently, but enough that it hurt just a little)... does this make me a bad Aikidoka?

You are a jackass, you are not supposed to resist in that type of randori, if you did not like him you should not have practiced with him. And you helped him up using sankyo, LOL, please come practice with me and try that stuff.

[Pankration90]

Blah. So that's that.
I have a feeling that I may need Judo to have strong Aikido.
Here's something to think about: Ueshiba and most of his top students had experience in other arts prior to training in aikido. Some trained judo, sumo, etc. Ueshiba himself trained in several styles of jujitsu before making aikido. I may be way off here (I've never trained in aikido), but to get to a high level of aikido where it can be applied easily, training in a harder style and experience with fully resisting opponents might be needed.

I agree with what Monty Collier said about first learning to grapple at close range (on the ground and in the clinch), and then branching outwards. It is a lot easier to close the distance than it is to maintain it.

[Keith R Lee]

He said,
"Jiu-jitsu, Judo, and Aikido are like three sisters."

"Jiu-jitsu is the Oldest sister. She has a bad temper and likes to fight. She is only interested in winning fights. She has fought many times and knows what is effective from countless experiences. Since she will fight anyone, she must have excellent technique to secure victory. You know what to expect when she comes for you, but still, it is not easy to stop her. And, if you had to be in a fight, you would want her standing next to you, and on your side." :grr:

"Judo is like Jiu-jitsu's younger sister. She is more interested in competing in events and not actual combat. She is more interested in the glory of competition, and not always survival. But she can and will fight if pushed. Years of training and competition has made her tough. And remember, she grew up with big sis who taught her a few tricks." evileyes

"Aikido is the youngest sister. She is not interested in war or competition, but she is familiar with its background. She seeks a peaceful solution always. She is also the most beautiful of her sisters. She is very graceful to watch. You always feel good just being in her presence. But, she is not incapable of defense. She can manage quite well on her terms, and she is very tricky. Even still, one should be aware that even if she fails, she still has two older sisters who jealously guard and watch over her. Because they are all sisters, then you can bet that they are not far from her." :)

That is a great, great story/analogy.

Sounds about right to me too.

Don't worry if some of the folks here get a little defensive about things. It's always good to have other grapplers on the the board.

[Michael Neal]

Actually that description is pretty misleading. Traditional Japanese jiu jitsu does not hold up to Judo when it comes to actual combat due to the training methods. If you knew the history of kodokan Judo you would understand that Judo beat Jiu Jitsu is almost every challenge match. I would put Jiu Jitsu more in the catagory of Aikido.

The thing you do not understand about Judo is that the competition is what makes it combat effective not the opposite.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Michael,

Curious from what experience you are drawing your conclusions from on jiu jitsu? I think it would really depend on the jiujustsu system you are talking about.

I believe Kano derived Judo from jiujutsu and alot of that was based on politics and philosophical differences based on the time and climate in Japan.

It is possible that Kano improved upon Jiujutsu, but since it would essentially be a derivative, I find it hard to believe that it would be more combat effective.

Diato Ryu is a form of jiu jutsu, BJJ is a form of Jiu justsu...I do not put them in the same category as aikido really if you look at it that way.

I used to think that competition ALWAYS watered down the combat effectiveness of a system. Now I think that it is immaterial. Some competition is good. The problem with it is perspective. If you focus solely on the "game" you may not gain all the "combat" aspects of the art.

That said, I am skilled enough at this stage to be able to do both and recognize the difference between the game and reality, so I don't think it hurts at all. I think there are some very good skills you get out of competition. You just have to be careful and have a good instructor that knows the difference.

I know from my karate that I was taught the first couple of years to turn my fist all the way over and expose my back cause you got more distance and could "score points" witth less risk for your opponent to "hit" you. Not to pick on TKD guys, but I have worked with many that really do not understand "real hitting and kicking" and make mistakes that would get them in trouble in a real fight. Usually they are beginners. Once you get up in rank and gain experience, you can figure it out, and the skills you learned about distance, speed, and timig are equally important.

Again, I think it is all about perspective and balance.

[Pankration90]

It is possible that Kano improved upon Jiujutsu, but since it would essentially be a derivative, I find it hard to believe that it would be more combat effective.

Diato Ryu is a form of jiu jutsu, BJJ is a form of Jiu justsu...I do not put them in the same category as aikido really if you look at it that way.
The reason why many (myself included) feel that judo training is better than traditional jujitsu training is because of the emphasis on randori. Kano took all of the stuff that couldn't be done full force on a partner and put those into kata, and used what was left for randori.

BJJ came from judo, not jujitsu.

[CNYMike]

Here's something to think about: Ueshiba and most of his top students had experience in other arts prior to training in aikido. Some trained judo, sumo, etc. Ueshiba himself trained in several styles of jujitsu before making aikido. I may be way off here (I've never trained in aikido), but to get to a high level of aikido where it can be applied easily, training in a harder style and experience with fully resisting opponents might be needed.

It's also true that thanks to his stringent entrance requirements, prior to world war 2, Aikido was mainly the province of a relatively small group of people in the upper echelons of Japanese society. When things changed such that anyone walking in the doore could learn it, this allowed for the art to propogate all over the world so that millions of people (including a lot of Aikiweb people) could learn it.

The surest way to kill off a martial art is to keep it secret. Systems have vanished from the face of the Earth because they were kept secret, or worse, not taught at all, and died with their last adherants. It's one thing to crosstrain in a harder system if that's your choice. But I role my eyes at any idea that smacks of restricting the pool of people who can take Aikido. Because that way lies killing off the art.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Thanks for the perspective Phillip. I would tend to agree with you on randori, that has been my experiences outside of judo with BJJ. I've never seen much about Mitsuo Maeda's (Count Koma) background other than he studied judo or jiujustsu. I believe he did both. I could see where he got the randori stuff from, and I would tend to agree that it was probably judo. Hard to say which art influenced him more not being there and seeing him.

Doesn't really matter I suppose!

[Red Beetle]

Actually that description is pretty misleading. Traditional Japanese jiu jitsu does not hold up to Judo when it comes to actual combat due to the training methods. If you knew the history of kodokan Judo you would understand that Judo beat Jiu Jitsu is almost every challenge match. I would put Jiu Jitsu more in the catagory of Aikido.

The thing you do not understand about Judo is that the competition is what makes it combat effective not the opposite.

Fusen Ryu Jiu-jitsu wiped out the Kodokan.
Kano had to buy off the Fusen ryu clan to save face.
If you can't beat them, buy them.

When I say Jiu-jitsu I am referring to Gracie Jiu-jitsu, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Kosen Judo, or the old Fusen Ryu. When I am referring to all of the other traditional Japanese versions, then I use the spelling: ju-jutsu, ju-jitsu. My description, with this in mind, in my opinion, is fairly accurate.

Modern Olympic Judo is not combat ready, unless the practitioner is innovative enough to alter some of the techniques. Or, unless he has cross trained in Jiu-jitsu (note my spelling). I have known very good modern Judo players to get into fights and throw wild flurries of punches. When they were done fighting, I asked them, "why didn't you do any of your Judo?" The guy answered, "Because I was in a fight." I returned, "Yeah, go think about that."

Red Beetle.

[L. Camejo]

I have known very good modern Judo players to get into fights and throw wild flurries of punches. When they were done fighting, I asked them, "why didn't you do any of your Judo?" The guy answered, "Because I was in a fight." I returned, "Yeah, go think about that."

This should be obvious but...

the only thing the above shows is the limitations of the individual and not the method in itself. It depends on the goal and focus of one's training. The vast majority of Judoka I know train specifically for competitive sport and nothing else, as such they may have a problem in a self defence scenario (may being the operative word as the only certainty is there are no certainties). This does not mean however that the style in itself is not ready for self defence with a very little bit of creativity or the right intent.

There is also the news story from a couple years back when a lowlife tried to jack a carload of Judoka and was pinned until the cops responded to the 911 call. There are stories that show both sides, does it really mean that the MA is ineffective when someone can't get it to work? I think not.

Combat ready, for those who have experienced true combat is another thing entirely from dojo training imo unless your partner is coming at you with a loaded assault rifle.;) So which dojo martial art is combat ready again?

Just a few thoughts.

LC:ai::ki:

[Michael Neal]

You guys are flat out wrong about several things and I will explain below, this is why I still haunt these forums even though I no longer do Aikido. Judo is too often misrepresentation here on Aikiweb.

Competition increases a martial art's effectiveness, this is evident in Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ, Sambo, Wrestling, Boxing etc. All of these arts will 99% of the time completely dominate someone who trains only in kata or kata like ways.

However, I will concur to a degree that some people who have a 100% competition mindset and never consider the martial application of the techniques are limiting themselves. But my money would still be on a 100% competitive judoka versus a traditional jujitsu practitioner or Aikidoka anytime.

I believe Kano derived Judo from jiujutsu and alot of that was based on politics and philosophical differences based on the time and climate in Japan.

It is possible that Kano improved upon Jiujutsu, but since it would essentially be a derivative, I find it hard to believe that it would be more combat effective.

Diato Ryu is a form of jiu jutsu, BJJ is a form of Jiu justsu...I do not put them in the same category as aikido really if you look at it that way.

I used to think that competition ALWAYS watered down the combat effectiveness of a system. Now I think that it is immaterial. Some competition is good. The problem with it is perspective. If you focus solely on the "game" you may not gain all the "combat" aspects of the art.

The main difference between jujitsu and judo is training methods. Most jujitsu trains in kata forms and as a result are generally unprepared to fight somoene who trains in randori and competition. Maybe some of you are unaware but there was a famous contest hosted by the Tokyo police in 1886 where the Judo team defeated the most well-known jujutsu schools of the time. Still to this day I can not recall too many times where I have seen somoene who trains in kata that defeats somoene who trains in a competition oriented martial art. True, Judo derived its syllabus from several schools of jujitsu but the difference is that Kano focused on developing the more practical elements through realistic training.

Modern Olympic Judo is not combat ready, unless the practitioner is innovative enough to alter some of the techniques. Or, unless he has cross trained in Jiu-jitsu (note my spelling). I have known very good modern Judo players to get into fights and throw wild flurries of punches. When they were done fighting, I asked them, "why didn't you do any of your Judo?" The guy answered, "Because I was in a fight." I returned, "Yeah, go think about that."

This is simply false you will have to explain more about how you think it is not combat ready especially when compared to an art like Aikido. The Judoka you mentioned not using Judo in a fight is just their stupidity, it says nothing about the effectiveness of Judo. I have read plenty of stories here on Aikiweb where people failed to use their Aikido and resorted to other ways of fighting, including a close associate of Ueshiba.


the only thing the above shows is the limitations of the individual and not the method in itself. It depends on the goal and focus of one's training. The vast majority of Judoka I know train specifically for competitive sport and nothing else, as such they may have a problem in a self defence scenario (may being the operative word as the only certainty is there are no certainties). This does not mean however that the style in itself is not ready for self defence with a very little bit of creativity or the right intent.

I agree, I think you have it right. It is up to the individual to learn and apply the techniques effectively. If somone trains only for competition and does not even see or realize Judo as a means of self defence, then they are going to have problems using it that way. The same can be said for any martial art, if an Aikidoka only trains for their spirituality and does not train for self defense then it is likely that they will not be able to use it well to defend themself.

Personally I use competition as a way to motivate me to stay in shape and keep practicing hard. It is a good way to learn how to apply techniques when your adreneline is high and when there is someone trying their best to beat you.

When I am training I try to stay aware of self defense applications, for example, keeping my head tucked and face turned away when I pinning somoene. There is a aiki-jujitisu guy that started practicing with us recently who likes to try and hit pressure points on my neck, says he is going to mock eye-gouge etc, to get out of pins, the stuff never works on me and I am not vulnerable to it.

[Michael Neal]

I hate to say it but Judo wins again in MMA, Karo(Judoka) beat Serra (a world renowned BJJ blackbelt)

Yea Judo is not effective :)

Where are all the Traditional Jujitsu guys in MMA if it is so much more effective than Judo? The answer is that people who train only kata and cooperatively would get absolutely creamed. While MMA is not necessarily actual combat, it is close enough to show what is effective and what is not.

[mj]

This isn't an MMA forum though, is it? :)

Judo should be grateful for MMA as it has reinvigorated a sport that was becoming more and more minor. From the wonderful mid 80s when around 12 million people worldwide were doing Judo it only took a few years to the mid 90s for that figure to drop to around 4 million.

Competition fighters looking for sponsorship and the introduction of so many new rules, groundwork being removed and the hunt for television money destroyed grass roots Judo. The days when a player would stay at one club for life are long gone. The appearance on the international scene of MMA, Pride, UFC and so on has saved Judo. Judo was not capable of saving itself and was collapsing under its own weight.

And where do many Judo people want to go once they are 'passed it' (for lack of a better phrase)? What do they do once their knees are gone, they can't straighten their arms and the injuries have caught up over 20 years?

Do they want to live on old war stories?

I went to Aikido. I discovered a gem of an art which probably would not have interested me as much when I was younger (although I went to Aikido when I was younger, it was just as a break from normal training).

Coming to Aikido with a Judo knowledge of bodyweight, angles, movement, tsukuri, kuzushi and all the rest....fitness training and uchikomi - it is very enjoyable.

But that's just me :)

[Mads Gabrielsen]

Fusen Ryu Jiu-jitsu wiped out the Kodokan.
Kano had to buy off the Fusen ryu clan to save face.
If you can't beat them, buy them.

Red Beetle.

I keep hearing about how great Fusen Ryu was, and how the ne waza was superior. Only trouble is, that Fusen Ryu today has very little ne waza that looks like what is practiced in judo and BJJ. I would like to know your source for saying this with such conviction.

Cheers,

Mads

[Red Beetle]

I keep hearing about how great Fusen Ryu was, and how the ne waza was superior. Only trouble is, that Fusen Ryu today has very little ne waza that looks like what is practiced in judo and BJJ. I would like to know your source for saying this with such conviction.

Cheers,

Mads

To get started with you might check out Gene Simco's: Brazilian Jiu-jitsu "The Master Text" page 52

I want to say Steven Cunningham (who is very good on the history of Judo), but I will have to check.

As for how good Fusen Ryu is today, I don't know. Things change, sometimes for the worse. Just because a school is bad today, does not mean that it was bad in the past. But, you know this already.



Red Beetle

[Red Beetle]

Dear Michael Neal,

Modern Olympic Judo is defined by a body of rules. Coaches and participants select techniques and tactics from an enormous matrix of wrestling moves that they think will help them win in competition. Modern Olympic Judo is jacketed wrestling, it is not combat.

All of wrestling can be used in unarmed combat, but not all of unarmed combat can be used in wrestling.

Therefore, if you are only trained in wrestling, then you will not be fully prepared to deal with all that takes place in combat. You will not be trained to avoid and deal with strikes. There are no strikes allowed in the competitions of Judo, Folk-style, Free-style, or Greco-Roman wrestling.

When Greco-Roman Gold Medalist Rulon Gardner demolished Olympic Judo Gold Medalist Hidehiko Yoshida in a recent pride event, Rulon did not only use his wrestling, but he also punched among other things. He had to learn about other parts of combat before he entered into pride, because Greco-Roman Wrestling is not combat ready. Yoshida also had to learn some boxing and Jiu-jitsu, among other things, because Olympic Judo is not combat ready.

So, if you are training someone to participate in an Olympic style Judo competition, then you are training that person to deal with an opponent who will be using techniques that are compatible with the rules of Olympic style Judo. You are not teaching that person to identify and avoid sucker-punches. You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you. You are not teaching that person how to apply or escape from heel-hooks, knee-bars, hip-kimuras, omo-platas and so forth.

So, the techniques of Olympic Judo can be used in combat under specific conditions. But, you would only be partly ready for combat. You need to study more in order to be fully prepared, or combat ready.



Oh yeah, I would like to see a takedown tournament held in which world class competitors from Free-style, Greco-Roman, and Judo all competed against each other. Each specific match up would have to require the competitors to wrestle once with and once without the gi. This would be exciting. We need more takedown competitions. :cool:

Red Beetle

[mj]

Well Monty I have to disagree with you here.

Firstly regarding your conclusions regarding Mr Gardner...he won a decision did he not? This goes against your own arguments about Judo and rules...he was judged the winner on points (unanimously).

You fail to mention that he outweighed his opponent by around 60 pounds and could not finish him off. If we say that Yoshida was not overcome by an Olympic champion who was, my god, 30 kilos heavier and had trained specifically to fight him ....well people may draw different conclusions regarding how well Judo had equipped him. The same would go for any art, wouldn't it?

I generally agree with your points on combat :)

[Kevin Leavitt]

I work with a few high school and college wrestlers in my Infantry Battalion that we teach combatives to. They have to "unlearn" a few things, and "learn" a few things in order to do well in NHB fighting.

Most have the basic skill set necessary to adapt rather quickly and become very good fighters.

After working with me a few times, they learn not to shoot leading with their face. they also learn not to "bleed" their elbows (sankyo and kotegaeshi).

It really does not take them too long to adapt. Much less time than someone who has never studied a martial art at all.

I have on kid in particular that is amazing, he intuitively knows much more about timing, distance, speed, agility than I do and I have been doing this for a while!

I would not necessarily equate wrestling and sport judo to combat...it is not that far as many would like to think though, many of the skills are relevant.

[Michael Neal]

This isn't an MMA forum though, is it? :)

Judo should be grateful for MMA as it has reinvigorated a sport that was becoming more and more minor. From the wonderful mid 80s when around 12 million people worldwide were doing Judo it only took a few years to the mid 90s for that figure to drop to around 4 million.

So what if this is not a MMA forum? What exactly is your point?

"Judo is second only to soccer in terms of world wide participation". Martial Arts Professional, June 2002

I am not sure about your figures you may want to recheck them but regardless I don't see how it matters either way in the context of the discussion here. Judo does have a marketing problem and at least in the United States, Tae Kwon Do has done better in this area. But this rreally has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Judo as a martial art.

Competition fighters looking for sponsorship and the introduction of so many new rules, groundwork being removed and the hunt for television money destroyed grass roots Judo. The days when a player would stay at one club for life are long gone. The appearance on the international scene of MMA, Pride, UFC and so on has saved Judo. Judo was not capable of saving itself and was collapsing under its own weight.

Groundwork was never removed from Judo, if groundwork was removed how did I spent over 2 minutes doing matwork at the last competition? The rules state that groundwork will be stopped once their is no progress being made by either side.

I still am curious to learn how Judo was "collapsing under its own weight"

And where do many Judo people want to go once they are 'passed it' (for lack of a better phrase)? What do they do once their knees are gone, they can't straighten their arms and the injuries have caught up over 20 years?

Do they want to live on old war stories?

Am am not sure what point you are trying to make here but there plently of things a Judoka can do with Judo once their competition years are over, there is Kata, referees, coaching, teaching etc.

I went to Aikido. I discovered a gem of an art which probably would not have interested me as much when I was younger (although I went to Aikido when I was younger, it was just as a break from normal training).

Coming to Aikido with a Judo knowledge of bodyweight, angles, movement, tsukuri, kuzushi and all the rest....fitness training and uchikomi - it is very enjoyable.

But that's just me :)

I am glad you enjoy Aikido, but you can enjoy Judo into old age as well.

[Michael Neal]

Dear Michael Neal,

Modern Olympic Judo is defined by a body of rules. Coaches and participants select techniques and tactics from an enormous matrix of wrestling moves that they think will help them win in competition. Modern Olympic Judo is jacketed wrestling, it is not combat.

It is just as much a combat art than any other, in fact even basic high school wrestling is a very effective way to defend yourself. Grappling is a very effective way to defend yourself, especially grappling techniques that are strengthened through competition and randori.

All of wrestling can be used in unarmed combat, but not all of unarmed combat can be used in wrestling.

Therefore, if you are only trained in wrestling, then you will not be fully prepared to deal with all that takes place in combat. You will not be trained to avoid and deal with strikes. There are no strikes allowed in the competitions of Judo, Folk-style, Free-style, or Greco-Roman wrestling

When Greco-Roman Gold Medalist Rulon Gardner demolished Olympic Judo Gold Medalist Hidehiko Yoshida in a recent pride event, Rulon did not only use his wrestling, but he also punched among other things. He had to learn about other parts of combat before he entered into pride, because Greco-Roman Wrestling is not combat ready. Yoshida also had to learn some boxing and Jiu-jitsu, among other things, because Olympic Judo is not combat ready. .

There is not a single martial art on the planet that would be combat ready by your defination then, only a mix of several different styles. I agree, mixed martial arts are much more effective than one art alone, there is no doubt about that. But that does not mean that Judo is not combat effective. To compete in MMA you have to be good at striking and grappling because the competition is trained that way. If you want to maintain Judo is not combat ready then you have to say that neither is Aikido, BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing, karate, jujitsu etc.

Regarding your claims that Judo does not train striking, much of that preserved in the kata. But regardless if you do kata training or not, once the Judoka closes the distance striking is pretty much useless anyway.


So, if you are training someone to participate in an Olympic style Judo competition, then you are training that person to deal with an opponent who will be using techniques that are compatible with the rules of Olympic style Judo. You are not teaching that person to identify and avoid sucker-punches. You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you. You are not teaching that person how to apply or escape from heel-hooks, knee-bars, hip-kimuras, omo-platas and so forth.

So, the techniques of Olympic Judo can be used in combat under specific conditions. But, you would only be partly ready for combat. You need to study more in order to be fully prepared, or combat ready.

Oh yeah, I would like to see a takedown tournament held in which world class competitors from Free-style, Greco-Roman, and Judo all competed against each other. Each specific match up would have to require the competitors to wrestle once with and once without the gi. This would be exciting. We need more takedown competitions. :cool:

Red Beetle

What do you mean "You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you." This is the very essence of Judo and where it excels.

Again, there is not martial art that exists that excels at all of the combat conditions you have laid out here.

Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therfore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.

So my question to you is, Judo is not combat ready as compared to what?

[Red Beetle]

So my question to you is, Judo is not combat ready as compared to what?[/QUOTE]

Gracie Jiu-jitsu

Red Beetle

[Red Beetle]

Well Monty I have to disagree with you here.

Firstly regarding your conclusions regarding Mr Gardner...he won a decision did he not? This goes against your own arguments about Judo and rules...he was judged the winner on points (unanimously).

Yes, everyone who saw the fight could only agree that Rulon won easily. Yoshida did not have the ground skill to handle the larger Greco-Roman wrestler. Royce Gracie handled Dan Severen, another Greco wrestler, and with no time limit and bare knuckle. One possibly could begin to make an argument about the combat effectiveness of Gracie Jiu-jitsu from such a comparison between Yoshida's fight with a Greco wrestler and Royce's fight with a Greco wrestler.


You fail to mention that he outweighed his opponent by around 60 pounds and could not finish him off. If we say that Yoshida was not overcome by an Olympic champion who was, my god, 30 kilos heavier and had trained specifically to fight him ....well people may draw different conclusions regarding how well Judo had equipped him. The same would go for any art, wouldn't it?

Again, consider Royce's fight with Dan. Royce gave up as much weight, or more so and won no questions asked. No person trained in Olympic style Judo has ever done, or could do what Royce Gracie did in UFC 1,2, and 4. Royce fought match after match, bare knuckle, no time limit, and came out on top. It took Rorion Gracie putting little Royce up against all of those big heavy fighters to wake up modern Judo. Let's not forget about how Royce easily took out Remco Pardoul, the Dutch Judo champion. So, I am arguing that Gracie Jiu-jitsu is combat ready when it comes to unarmed combat. Because, they understand what can and usually does take place in unarmed combat.

Red Beetle

[Pankration90]

Monty Collier,

You're right that many judo-ka don't do much ne waza because of the rules (although there are people who do tachi waza and ne waza in equal amounts, have you seen Kozushi on the judo forum?). People who do 'traditional' bjj don't focus enough on standing techniques.

Here's a quote from Shogun on martialtalk.com:
BJJ doesnt sprawl. we pull guard.
(http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23220&page=2)

He's training in bjj under Pedro Sauer. He's learning 'real' bjj, not bjj + wrestling + sombo + boxing + muay thai + whatever else.

What would you rather do in a street fight, control a guy in the clinch and be able to end the fight by throwing him, or pulling guard to take the fight to the ground when you might not need to?

Also, before you start thinking that I'm a judoka who is jealous of bjj, I'm not. I've never trained in judo. I'm a submission grappler/mixed martial artist and I try to learn whatever I can, and bjj makes up a large portion of my training. BJJ is great at what it specializes in (ne waza), but it alone isn't "combat effective" IMO. Knowing how to defend yourself on the ground is good (using the guard and knowing escapes from folkstyle wrestling) but knowing how to prevent yourself from ending up there is just as important.

[Red Beetle]

It is just as much a combat art than any other, in fact even basic high school wrestling is a very effective way to defend yourself.

You keep missing the point. I teach AAU wrestling for middle school and high school kids. See my website under the 'wrestling' button. We do not teach these kids how to close the distance and clinch when someone is punching at them. We teach them to wrestle another wrestler who is competing in a folk-style tournament with folk-style rules. If an AAU wrestler is going to use his folk-style skills for actual combat, then he will have to be innovative himself, or ask someone trained in Jiu-jitsu to help him.
Olympic Judo is the same as AAU wrestling. Take Udo Quellmaz, German gold medalist Judo in the 96 Olympics in Atlanta. How long did Udo practice avoiding punches before he played in Atlanta? He prepared for a jacketed wrestling event, not a street fight. That is what Olympic Judo is, it is a jacketed wrestling event.
You won't see Jimmy Pedro kneeing anyone in the face in any of his Olympic matches. You won't see Nicolas Gill evading kicks to the legs, body, or head in any of his international Judo matches, because strikes are not allowed. Because, modern Olympic Judo is not combat.


Grappling is a very effective way to defend yourself, especially grappling techniques that are strengthened through competition and randori.

This I agree with. You are so right. When I fought challenge matches against people from other styles of Martial Arts I agreed not to strike at all, unless the challenger tried to gouge my eyes or bite me. Even in the matches where they tried to claw my eyes and bite me, I never had to do anything other than wrestle. The point of such a match was to demonstrate the combat effectiveness of Jiu-jitsu. I could not have done such things if I did not understand how to close the distance when someone was trying to strike. I could not have been so effective unless I knew how to suffocate arm movement once the fight reached the ground. Believe it or not, you have to know how to wrestle a striker once he is on the ground, if you are going to do so without being hit. There is a logical method. There is a way to hold tate-shiho-gatame without being bit. There is a way to hold side control so that your adversary can't claw your eyes. These are all Jiu-jitsu tactics designed with the dirty fighter in mind.

But in Olympic Judo, we do not have to worry about Udo Quellmaz launching a spinning hook kick at my head when the ref starts the match.


There is not a single martial art on the planet that would be combat ready by your definition

Gracie Jiu-jitsu accomplishes this.
They are trained to handle wrestlers, as well as, strikers. Before anyone could begin to become effective against the Gracie system they had to first understand what unarmed combat entailed.

I will be the first to say that tournament Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is not combat ready if that is all the Bjj player is trained for. There is no striking in Bjj gi/no-gi tournaments. Most Bjj teachers have a working knowledge of Gracie Jiu-jitsu and vale-tudo (something different from Gracie Jiu-jitsu), since Bjj mostly came from the Gracie family.

But regardless if you do kata training or not, once the Judoka closes the distance striking is pretty much useless anyway.

Ken Shamrock faced an United States Judo player in one of the early UFCs. I cannot think of the guys name, but he was an excellent Judoka. He fought in a blue kimono. After the clinch, Ken pounded him into submission. The Judo guy had only been trained for tournament play. He was not ready to deal with a guy who could grapple and strike. Ken never defeated Royce in their engagements. He did dot Royce's eye during the timed 'superfight', but that is quite different from a no-time-limit event which the Gracies specialize in.

Renzo Gracie fought a European Judo champion in one of the earlier reality combat events. It was called World Combat.... I can't remember the exact name. Maybe somebody else can. Anyway, the Judo guy did get the take-down, despite what was written in the book by Kid Peligro titled "The Gracie Way." The Judoka took Renzo down with Morote-gari. Renzo did a nice sweep and ended up on the Judoka's back. The guy turtles and Renzo unloads the Gracie elbow to the guy's neck and head. That was the Gracie way of handling Olympic Judo's defensive turtle position. The European Judoka was simply doing what he had trained all of his life to do....Turtle. His Judo was not combat ready. His Judo is Olympic Judo.


What do you mean "You are not teaching that person to close the distance and clinch when the adversary strikes at you." This is the very essence of Judo and where it excels.

Come on, Olympic Judo teaches a person how to skew their stances, play patty-cake, hide grips, take grips, grip climbing, and break grips. It does not teach people how to close the distance and clinch when the guy is throwing hay-maker after hay-maker, or when the guy is kicking, and so on. Show me an Olympic or international Judo competition where striking is going on. The New York Open have any knock outs due to the left hook? I think you are just being stubborn.

Again, there is not martial art that exists that excels at all of the combat conditions you have laid out here.

Again, Gracie Jiu-jitsu


Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therefore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.

I never said Aikido is combat effective. Like Olympic Judo, the techniques of Aikido will work under specific combat circumstances. These circumstances may or may not appear in unarmed combat.

Thus, we are back to my analogy of the three sisters. If you really have to fight, you better have big sis on your side for safety.

Finally, I love Judo. I love Aikido too. I want to promote each and see them prosper. I am sick of all these cheesy Tae Kwon Do schools, which don't even come close to what it is in the Olympics, making a fortune off of unsuspecting fools. :grr: These modern Tae Kwon Do and Karate places provide little more than social interation and baby-sitting. Do you want fries with that Black-belt? :p



Red Beetle
www.kingsportjudo.com

[Red Beetle]

People who do 'traditional' bjj don't focus enough on standing techniques.
Saulo Ribeiro and 'Margarida' Pontes seem to have game when it comes to takedowns. Just because their Bjj, don't assume they can't throw.


BJJ is great at what it specializes in (ne waza), but it alone isn't "combat effective"
If Bjj is all a person knows, then it is not combat effective. If Pedro Sauer doesn't teach anything other than tournament Bjj, then it will not be combat effective. He has an affiliate school in our area, and so, I know they understand the basics of Gracie Jiu-jitsu (just check Sauer's resume).

I understand what Shogun is saying when he says that they do not sprawl, but pull guard. This is not wholly true, we have all seen Bjj guys sprawl (if not, then get a hold of Marc Laimon's Tournament Tested Techniques and enjoy).

A friend of mine put a front-headlock (free-style variation) on a black belt in Bjj, and the guy could not escape it the entire match. I am not saying Bjj doesn't have problems. I am saying that Gracie Jiu-jitsu is combat effective.


Red Beetle

[Pankration90]

Saulo Ribeiro and 'Margarida' Pontes seem to have game when it comes to takedowns. Just because their Bjj, don't assume they can't throw.
...and where did these throws come from? Judo.

I'm no expert on the Gracies, the history of bjj, etc. but as far as I'm aware "BJJ" and "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" are synonymous. What you seem to be talking about is vale tudo training, which largely came from the addition of boxing and muay thai. Look at "Mastering Jujitsu" by Renzo Gracie. If those strikes aren't boxing and muay thai strikes, I don't know what are.

[Red Beetle]

and where did these throws come from? Judo.
You bet they came from Judo.
They took the time to learn what worked. I think modern Judo players need to do the same.


I'm no expert on the Gracies, the history of bjj, etc. but as far as I'm aware "BJJ" and "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" are synonymous.
I have personally witnessed Rorion Gracie argue to the contrary.
Not everyone cares what Rorion thinks, but I have talked to others who argue a similar thread. For example, many of the Machados will quickly tell you that they do not practice Gracie Jiu-jitsu, but Machado Jiu-jitsu. They insist that there is a difference. Many of them also insist that what they do is not Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, but Machado Jiu-jitsu. It could just be semantics, but one should study for oneself.

What you seem to be talking about is vale tudo training
Don't forget 'Lutra Livre' That is another popular free-fighting system in Brazil.

But thanks.

Red Beetle

[Michael Neal]

Red Beetle,

I went to a Gracie Jiu Jitsu school for a while. Great people and their newaza was superb. When we did standup randori without the gi I was able to throw just about everyone I went against even though I had never trained without a gi before. So I really can not agree with you because my personal experience tells me otherwise. The only people I did not dominate were a few very large wrestlers, and even then it was a stalemate, they also had many more years wrestling experience than I had Judo experience.

It is so easy to apply judo without a gi that it would take a complete moron not to be able to do it. In order to be a good Judoka you have to train throws from as many types of grips possible. The grip I used most often in the no gi randori was a koshi garuma around the neck which is basic Olympic Judo 101.

The same goes with striking, I have sparred karate guys before and was able to toss them around like rag dolls even though they were trying to strike me.

And I am nothing special in Judo either, I am only a blue belt and I compete every once in a while at the local level.

[Red Beetle]

I went to a Gracie Jiu Jitsu school for a while.
Cool, where did you go?

When we did standup randori without the gi I was able to throw just about everyone I went against even though I had never trained without a gi before. So I really can not agree with you because my personal experience tells me otherwise.

I would love to see you come to Silvio Braga's Jiu-jitsu school in Knoxville, TN and just wrestle his guys stand up with the Gi. I have a feeling you would get educated real fast. And these guys are just Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. ;)

I've seen guys from Helio 'Soneca' Moreira's schools who were white belts and blue belts toss Judo brown belts during stand up matches with the gi. The Judo guys had won plenty of Shiai, and were trained by a Rokudan, but could not get the takedown. This made the Jiu-jitsu guys really downplay Judo. 'Soneca' had studied Judo in Brazil.

The only people I did not dominate were a few very large wrestlers, and even then it was a stalemate, they also had many more years wrestling experience than I had Judo experience.
Wow, you sound like your a natural takedown machine. That, or your doing takedown wrestling with a bunch of chumps. ;)

It is so easy to apply judo without a gi that it would take a complete moron not to be able to do it.
You are so wrong. Judo is not designed for NO-GI. The front-headlock demonstrates this all too well. I got kids who are in high-school, and they could put you in a front-headlock, and you will not get out with all your Judo. Like I said earlier, I have seen Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belts incapable of escaping a collegic front-headlock. The front-headlock was not found in any Asian style. It is a Western hold. And a damn good one. Get a copy of Gable's Advanced Wrestling and check out how he puts it to use. You have to be trained to use and escape the front-headlock. And then, if the guy understands 'stance in motion' your gonna hate it. :yuck:


In order to be a good Judoka you have to train throws from as many types of grips possible. The grip I used most often in the no gi randori was a koshi garuma around the neck which is basic Olympic Judo 101.
I have never seen a Judo school take off their jackets and perform pummeling drills. Such drills are basic for no-gi stand up positioning.
Maybe you are referring to to what is called a C2 grip in Modern Judo (there is no such thing as a Koshi-guruma grip). This is where you take your power hand and grip around his neck at the 2nd cervical vertabrae. The C2 grip is still quite different from a Collar-Elbow (which is maybe what you are thinking about). You don't seem to know what you are talking about. You should know the basic terminology of Kumi-kata if you study Modern Olympic Judo. Maybe your teacher doesn't instruct you in this, or maybe you don't listen in class. Here are some of the grips in Modern Olympic Judo: C2, Right-Natural, T3, Left-Natural, LeftvsRight, Scapula, Pectoralis Pocket, Anterior elbow, Double-lapel, Double-sleeve, Yamarashi (careful 5 seconds for this one), and two on one, and so forth.

The same goes with striking, I have sparred karate guys before and was able to toss them around like rag dolls even though they were trying to strike me.
This I believe. Keep up the good the work. :cool:

And I am nothing special in Judo either, I am only a blue belt and I compete every once in a while at the local level.
Your special to us dear. :D


I think we agree more than you know. You just like verbal Judo. The problem is that I do too. You would like our Academy. I have some who preach that wrestling with a Gi is a dead art. I have some who only do Judo. I have others who only do AAU Folk-style. Then there are those who do it all.


R.B.

[Kevin Leavitt]

Can someone define what is meant by "combat" or "combat effective". I think some assumptions are being made from different perspectives.

I must say i disagree with Michael Neal's statement as follows:

Since this is an Aikido forum I will pick specifically on it using your logic. Aikido does not train much grappling especially newaza, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not really teach how to strike effectively, therefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does little randori or competition, thefore it is not combat effective. Aikido does not train very often against kicks, therfore it is not combat effective. etc. etc. etc.

I disagree with it based on my definition of what is combat effective, which by that definition, all empty hand arts, simply come up lacking BIG Time. Again, it depends on what limitations you are placing on the scenario that maybe pictured in your head.

I don't study the arts for it's supposed "combat effectiveness". In a kill or be killed situation, or self defense, there are things that are simply much more effective than rolling around the ground, or twirling around. But before I can discuss them further, need to really know what is "combat effective" as we are framing it here.

[Michael Neal]

Cool, where did you go?

Capital Jiu Jitsu in Alexandria, Virginia

I would love to see you come to Silvio Braga's Jiu-jitsu school in Knoxville, TN and just wrestle his guys stand up with the Gi. I have a feeling you would get educated real fast. And these guys are just Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. ;)

I've seen guys from Helio 'Soneca' Moreira's schools who were white belts and blue belts toss Judo brown belts during stand up matches with the gi. The Judo guys had won plenty of Shiai, and were trained by a Rokudan, but could not get the takedown. This made the Jiu-jitsu guys really downplay Judo. 'Soneca' had studied Judo in Brazil.

The guys you refer to are likely wrestlers with many years experiece and likely have Judo training as well, you mentioned the instructor had Judo training. So if I did spar them I would not be going against pure Jiu Jitsu, I would be fighting MMA fighters.

You can't have it both ways, you say that people who win MMA matches using Judo are not true Judoka since they crosstrain. Then you have Jiu Jitsu guys who cross train many styles and then claim it is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. No it is MMA, and I will readily admit that someone who trains MMA is likely a better fighter than me, no question.

Wow, you sound like your a natural takedown machine. That, or your doing takedown wrestling with a bunch of chumps. ;)

You are so wrong. Judo is not designed for NO-GI. The front-headlock demonstrates this all too well. I got kids who are in high-school, and they could put you in a front-headlock, and you will not get out with all your Judo. Like I said earlier, I have seen Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belts incapable of escaping a collegic front-headlock. The front-headlock was not found in any Asian style. It is a Western hold. And a damn good one. Get a copy of Gable's Advanced Wrestling and check out how he puts it to use. You have to be trained to use and escape the front-headlock. And then, if the guy understands 'stance in motion' your gonna hate it. :yuck:

Judo is designed for Gi or No Gi, it does not matter, you just have to alter the grip. I am not sure what your point is about the front headlock, it is an effective technique, but that does not mean Judo techniques are not.


I have never seen a Judo school take off their jackets and perform pummeling drills. Such drills are basic for no-gi stand up positioning.

Maybe you are referring to to what is called a C2 grip in Modern Judo (there is no such thing as a Koshi-guruma grip). This is where you take your power hand and grip around his neck at the 2nd cervical vertabrae. The C2 grip is still quite different from a Collar-Elbow (which is maybe what you are thinking about). You don't seem to know what you are talking about. You should know the basic terminology of Kumi-kata if you study Modern Olympic Judo. Maybe your teacher doesn't instruct you in this, or maybe you don't listen in class. Here are some of the grips in Modern Olympic Judo: C2, Right-Natural, T3, Left-Natural, LeftvsRight, Scapula, Pectoralis Pocket, Anterior elbow, Double-lapel, Double-sleeve, Yamarashi (careful 5 seconds for this one), and two on one, and so forth.

All I was saying was that I took a grip as in koshigaruma, not that koshigaruma was a grip in itself. We don't learn the grips by the names you have said here, we just do them. Just because I don't know the name of the grip does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.

I am curious, what is your rank in Judo and what organization was it issued by? Because I have never heard anyone test or require Judoka to know the names of the grips.


I think we agree more than you know. You just like verbal Judo. The problem is that I do too. You would like our Academy. I have some who preach that wrestling with a Gi is a dead art. I have some who only do Judo. I have others who only do AAU Folk-style. Then there are those who do it all.

Your place sounds great and I am sure the guys that train in multiple styles combining striking, wrestling, BJJ, Judo etc. would have no problem defeating me, but that does not mean Judo is not combat effective it just means MMA is more effective than Judo alone.

[L. Camejo]

Can someone define what is meant by "combat" or "combat effective". I think some assumptions are being made from different perspectives.

I don't study the arts for it's supposed "combat effectiveness". In a kill or be killed situation, or self defense, there are things that are simply much more effective than rolling around the ground, or twirling around. But before I can discuss them further, need to really know what is "combat effective" as we are framing it here.

I think Kevin has a valid point here. "Combat effectiveness" can have nothing to do with dojo martial arts at all, so clarifications may be necessary.

As far as things being more effective for self defence than rolling around on the ground, I can vouch for that from personal experience more than once. If I were to believe my own experiences alone I'd say that BJJ, Judo and any ground grappling art was useless for real world self defence (having been in multi-attacker situations numbering 8 folks at least once). The proof lay in folks who did end up on the ground and as a result ended up in hospital with severe head injuries from boot kicks and stomps from the rest of the group.

However I'd be wrong in assuming that ground grappling arts were useless for self defence simply from those experiences. It's just that in the multi-attack scenarios I experienced at that time, the "take it to the ground" tactic would not have worked really well and the Aikido we do worked perfectly.

Of course me saying that the grappling arts don't work because of my little experience is as uneducated as saying any other art doesn't work in self defence (where what style you do is not as important as what you can get away with under the pressure and adrenal stress imho).

But in the end folks will believe what they need to sleep well at nite.;)

Kevin has a good point on the "combat effectiveness" question though.

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

[Michael Neal]

Yea but Judo's "take it to the ground strategy" involves puttting the attacker on the ground forcefully while remaining standing. Newaza can be used to follow up if applicable but that would be stupid if there were multiple attackers.

What happens to someone who does not train any newaza at all when they find themselves on the ground, multiple attakers or not? They are then in serious trouble. Somoene skilled in newaza is better able to get to their feet quick, whether it be escaping a pin, dislocating arms, moving to a better psotion to stand etc.

[Pankration90]

In a one-on-one fight, knowing how to get back to your feet while someone is grappling you is important. In a fight against more than one person while you're by yourself, knowing how to get back to your feet while people are stomping on you and kicking you is more important. I think MMA would be better than a single grappling art in that situation (often in mma one guy will be trying to use an open guard so the other person will just stand up and start kicking or stomping).

[Bronson]

So has there ever been a MMA team fight? That would be cool. Six guys, three to a team, all going at it at the same time...sweeeet! OH, you know what else would be cool? If you put 5 or 6 (or 30) guys in the ring at the same time and it was every-man-for-himself....I'd pay to see that. Better yet, give them melee weapons...now that's entertainment :D

Bronson

[Red Beetle]

Michael Neal]Capital Jiu Jitsu in Alexandria, Virginia
I have always heard good things about this place.


The guys you refer to are likely wrestlers with many years experiece and likely have Judo training as well, you mentioned the instructor had Judo training. So if I did spar them I would not be going against pure Jiu Jitsu, I would be fighting MMA fighters.
Brazilian Jiu-jitsu guys will not often stand upright as in classical Kodokan Judo. They skew their stance (stagger stance) and lower their levels (jigo-hontai). This is considered a defensive posture in classical Judo. The Jiu-jitsu guys know that this makes it harder to enter in general, and to throw front in particular (usually you have to square if the guy is staggered before throwing front). The guys I refer to are aggressive, and attempt to score at each level of the game. If you can get some tapes of Murilio Bustamonte, you might see some of the Jiu-jitsu takedown variations. They are typically high percentage takedowns, and if you miss, your not in too bad of position.

You can't have it both ways, you say that people who win MMA matches using Judo are not true Judoka since they crosstrain. Then you have Jiu Jitsu guys who cross train many styles and then claim it is Gracie Jiu Jitsu. No it is MMA, and I will readily admit that someone who trains MMA is likely a better fighter than me, no question.
Think back to before the UFC ever come on TV. Before 1992. Before the average person ever heard of Gracie Jiu-jitsu in this country, there was guys training specifically for Olympic Judo. Guys such as Ben Spijker (this is the Judo guy Renzo stepped on in the World Combat Championships). Gracie Jiu-jitsu was combat effective before UFC and mixed martial arts. Royce demonstrated this with clarity.

Judo guys recognized most of what Royce was doing to win matches. What they did not recognize was how Royce was making these boxers, kick-boxers, shoot-fighters, and karate guys miss their strikes. I can't tell you how many Judo guys I have heard say, "Wow, look how he keeps that guy from hitting him when he has him in the guard!" I remember asking a Korean Judo instructor what the difference between Judo and Gracie Jiu-jitsu was (this was pre-UFC....he had got a hold of a Gracie In Action tape). The guy told me, "It is a modified version of Judo. They have changed Judo, in my opinion, so that they can fight anyone and win. Just like a fight, anyone can hit at any time while they are trying to wrestle them, and it can be really brutal to watch."


Judo is designed for Gi or No Gi, it does not matter, you just have to alter the grip
If this were true, then you would see plenty of guys who have done Judo applying for college wrestling scholarships and getting them, based upon years of Judo growing up. What would really happen though is when they went to a try out for the team they would get their butt schooled on no-gi takedown wrestling. I used to wrestle a guy from Carson-Newman College. Carson-Newman is not Iowa, but they got a wrestling team, and this guy was on it. He was not their best guy by far. He slightly outweighed me, was a bit stronger, but we rolled often. Brother, if he had a gi on, and I could get a grip, then he would bitch, but he didn't have a gi on.....look out. I had to learn a considerable amount of folk-style, free-style, and Greco-Roman wrestling before I could be effective against them. If you don't know their game, then you will get whipped.

Just go to this web-site (www.championshipproductions.com) and see how much info is available on western wrestling, then compare it to instructional material available on Judo. Judo is way behind.
College wrestling teams and coaches know all about the wrestling programs of the other schools they compete against. They share info freely and often between schools. You will not see Jimmy Pedro on Real Pro Wrestling anytime soon.
Another reason, I believe, is because western wrestling is not considered mystical, magical, does not rely on magic energy (ki), and has not in the past been kept within secret circles. Coaches tend to teach as much as they can, while traditional senseis are slow to release "secrets", and look for special people to show them to.
Finally, western wrestling has an enormous field of competition for their athletes to practice and learn with. This is not the case with Judo in this country. This country sucks at Judo. The best we have produced was a two time bronze medalist.

. I am not sure what your point is about the front headlock, it is an effective technique, but that does not mean Judo techniques are not
The front-headlock is not found in Judo or traditional Jiu-jitsu. It is a hold that was designed by Western wrestlers who did not wear a kimono. Asian styles stand upright, but western styles change levels. This is why the front-headlock was developed. Learn this hold and its set ups, then you can mess up your Judo buddies just for meanness. So, the point of bringing up the front-headlock is to give you an example of the complete difference between Judo and western no-gi wrestling.

Just consider how advanced the Double-leg is in wrestling as compared to that piss poor Judo version called Morote-gari. Modern Judo has been trying to implement more wrestling skills into their program, but old traditional Judo retards refuse to admit that someone else may have a better technique of attack. Consider the Low-level-Single. This is a wrestling takedown that is so different from anything in Judo that you just can't imagine.
John Smith has a nice instructional out on this one. Consider the arm-spin. The arm-spin is a dynamic throw that can be done from multiple tie ups. Kurt Angle was super fast at this throw. Check out his Gold medal match in the Olympics.

Maybe Mike Swain will put out the first NO-GI Judo Instructional DVDs. I'm sure his bronze medalist's no-gi takedown tactics would be tops over someone like Cael Sanderson.


All I was saying was that I took a grip as in koshigaruma, not that koshigaruma was a grip in itself.
I knew what you were talking about. I was just giving you a hard time. The 67 throws are named after the Kake, not the Tsukuri, or the Kazushi. Don't be intimidated by the terminology. When you start a new subject, you have to master the terms. The same would apply if you were to go to Law School, or a Physics class.
Plus, you sound cool when you can tell someone that you did a Sasae-Tsurikomi-Ashi, then went to Yoko-shiho-Gatame, and from there switched to Tate-shiho-gatame, and finally applied Sankaku-jime when the guy rolled out.


We don't learn the grips by the names you have said here, we just do them. Just because I don't know the name of the grip does not mean I don't know what I am talking about.
Your right.
The United States Judo Federation has a tape called: Get A Grip
It is not a beautiful piece of production, but it goes over most of the grips in modern Judo and gives you the names and alternate names. It shows competition examples with each grip. It is only about $20.00 so don't be cheap. You need this tape.

I am curious, what is your rank in Judo and what organization was it issued by?
I'm just a little old Shodan.
I went black in a Korean Judo school. They are rougher than most Japanese Judo schools. The one I was in was really rough. It was like the Cobra Kai school on the Karate Kid movie. They didn't run around and beat everybody up like the movie, but you would often hear things like, "Pain does not exist in this dojo." "You want to get off the mat and get a drink of water? Yes, go home and get a drink, and don't come back.", "Your just bleeding, you can still wrestle, so what is your problem?" He didn't have many students.
I am in the U.S.J.F., and a member of Shufu-Yudanshakai.

Because I have never heard anyone test or require Judoka to know the names of the grips.
The United States Judo Association has a Syllabus which I highly recommend that YOU get a copy of. They explain in outline form what each lower and Dan belt should know. You will see that they require you to know more and more grips as you progress. The syllabus is about $25.00.


Your place sounds great
You'd like it.
If there was a better place to train Judo at in my area, then I would be there.


Red Beetle

[L. Camejo]

Yea but Judo's "take it to the ground strategy" involves puttting the attacker on the ground forcefully while remaining standing.
So does Aikido, Jujutsu and a few other arts - what's your point? When I said "take it to the ground" I meant grappling or striking while on the ground, not putting the guy there while remaining standing, which would be a takedown or throw. My fault for not clarifying enough I guess.

What happens to someone who does not train any newaza at all when they find themselves on the ground, multiple attakers or not? They are then in serious trouble. Somoene skilled in newaza is better able to get to their feet quick, whether it be escaping a pin, dislocating arms, moving to a better psotion to stand etc.
Very true. But like you said, deliberately going into newaza in a multi attack situation is just stupid. Having training in ne waza will increase one's chances if such a situation were unavoidable however.

Now that I think about it though, Red may have a point regarding those Judoka who train only for competition and as a result may lack training in ma ai, timing, entering and setting up good tsukuri against a good striking attack if all they train from is the typical shiai grip positions.

Again, like any other single martial method, there are limits to its range. In the end, for unarmed or lightly armed self defence one needs to be capable in as many range options as possible to ensure some degree of overall effectiveness, not to mention study and appreciate the other, non-technical aspects of SD.

Just a few thoughts.
LC:ai::ki:

[Michael Neal]

Red Beetle, I think we agree on many things but it just seems you have preference for wrestling and I have a preference for Judo. Wrestling has just as many limitations as Judo has. Just about every wrestler that I have sparred with in Judo was very vulnerable to chokes, armbars, and many throws as well. The bent over wrestling posture you described above does not work very well in my experience, I usually just drag them down and take their back for a choke. It is not until the wrestler crosstrains in BJJ or Judo do they learn how to overcome these weakeneses. So to be perfectly honest, I think pure Judo is much more prepared to deal with MMA than pure wrestling.

Karo, Fedor, Yoshida, etc. all have used Judo effectively in MMA on opponents not wearing a GI, they just use a different grip. Yes they crosstrained in striking and such but they still use 100% pure Judo all the time.

[Michael Neal]

So does Aikido, Jujutsu and a few other arts - what's your point?

Larry you said Judo was useless for self defense because they fight on the ground, my response was that Judo's strategy is not to drag someone to the ground to roll around with them. Even Judo competition rules stress strong throws over newaza. This is why I like it better than BJJ because I would prefer to remain standing if possible. Not every situation is a multiple attacker one and even then it is good to know newaza.

Now that I think about it though, Red may have a point regarding those Judoka who train only for competition and as a result may lack training in ma ai, timing, entering and setting up good tsukuri against a good striking attack if all they train from is the typical shiai grip positions

Judoka that train only for competition are at much less of a disadvantage than those martial artists who do no competition or hard randori on a regular basis. Competition is perfect for developing all of those things you described, timing, distance, entering etc. I am not sure you have experienced much Judo if you can't see that. Have you ever done randori against a strong grip fighter? Their grips are more like realistic strikes than you see in many Aikido classes.

[Kevin Leavitt]

I've got a video of one of my wrestlers with a 2 hour block of instruction in BJJ soundly defeating a 3 dan in judo, and several other guys in a BJJ match. Including a 6 foot 5, 310 pounder. (non judo, but MMA background).

I have beat this guy a few times, but he learns quickly and you never get him twice with the same move.

I'd have to say generally judo should be more prepared than wrestling in MMA, but did not find it to be the case this time around.

When I have time and if I can figure out how, i'll have to edit the video down to an acceptable size to post. If nothing else it is interesting to watch.

Oh yea, explained the rule to the guy just prior to the match and I had to show him how to wear a gi and tie his belt since he had never worn one!

[Michael Neal]

I don't doubt it, I would love to see the video. What was his background in wrestling?

I saw a wrestler enter a Judo competition as a white belt and leave as a brown after wiping the floor with everyone. He was an elite level wrestler though.

[Pankration90]

Maybe Mike Swain will put out the first NO-GI Judo Instructional DVDs. I'm sure his bronze medalist's no-gi takedown tactics would be tops over someone like Cael Sanderson.
Karo Parisyan already has a set out about no-gi judo (using wrestling grips).

[L. Camejo]

Larry you said Judo was useless for self defense because they fight on the ground

Michael, please read the following slowly:

If I were to believe my own experiences alone I'd say that BJJ, Judo and any ground grappling art was useless for real world self defence...

However I'd be wrong in assuming that ground grappling arts were useless for self defence simply from those experiences.

I did not say that Judo was useless for self defence. I said that if I went by my own self defence experiences alone I'd assume that, but I'd actually be wrong. I do some Judo and BJJ as well as a Japanese Jujutsu-based system (non-koryu), so I know there is an area in which they work quite well for SD.

Judoka that train only for competition are at much less of a disadvantage than those martial artists who do no competition or hard randori on a regular basis. Competition is perfect for developing all of those things you described, timing, distance, entering etc. I am not sure you have experienced much Judo if you can't see that. Have you ever done randori against a strong grip fighter? Their grips are more like realistic strikes than you see in many Aikido classes.

I agree Michael. I never said that folks who don't train for competition have an advantage over those folks who do hard randori on a regular bassis. You may have misread my last post entirely it seems.

As far as the grips of strong grip fighters relating to realistic strikes, I'd have to say you may have limited exposure to quality effective striking training if you'd equate their "jab, snatch and clinch" sort of attacks with a serious percussive strike.

Interesting concept though. It may be just that I have not seen an exceptional "strong grip fighter" in my experience, which is very possible.;)

Gambatte.
LC:ai::ki:

[mj]

Thread drift:

Gripping is an art in itself. The strength of grip used by a competition fighter on its own is enough to negate almost anything that an untrained person could probably do - in the same way that Iwama stylists work ferociously on their 'grabbing' skills but to a higher degree.

However at the base level Judo generally has one basic fault - a lack of defence against head striking (headbutts are very common but constant strikes to the head can put someone on the back foot).

And Aikido generally has a major fault in the lack of dynamic resistance.

This is why cross training, communication and threads like this are in the main helpful. We all have our own obsessions, but it is all too easy to become transfixed on small things when large things go un-noticed. And in the case of Aikido there are so many schools that a determined practioner can find these faults and overcome them, but this requires the same kind of open-mindedness that it takes to appreciate Judo/Karate/BJJ/et al.

[Michael Neal]

Mark, I think I can finally agree on everything you just said :) its a miracle!

[nathansnow]

While the breakfalls in judo are very effective in what they do, they don't really "flow/accept/yield" into the mat, esp side breakfall.

http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ukemi3.gif

Does anyone have any advice on some kind of combo judo/aikido side ukemi that would result in less "splat" AND would work if thrown with a dynamic judo throw?
I think judo falls "accept/yield" to the mat :crazy:
I wouldn't try to somehow avoid the judo hard fall. If you're off just a bit, you could get hurt. Just try to make your judo falls better!! If someone puts a "real" (tournament.... I want the point :grr: ) throw on you, they won't let go and will make you take a very hard fall!!

[billybob]

Shiho,

I appreciate your comparison of aikido training to judo training. I honestly can not perceive a difference between well done aikido technique and well done judo technique.

For example: http://www.judoinfo.com/video4.htm click on Kyuzo Mifune Sumi Otoshi

The 'gentle way' saved my life and the lives of my parents, but that is a very personal story.

I will share from my heart that I miss judo randori; the feeling of freedom during good ukemi, and moreso the joy of turning out of big throws and throwing partner entirely with their energy is something I yearn to feel again.

David

[kaishaku]

I've been training in BJJ for a few weeks. A lot of people on here seem to post comments like, "Oh, well, I trained with some [whatever] guys and they couldn't hold a candle to my irimi-nage" or "After an hour of wrestling practice I defeated a judo shihan!" but unfortunately I have not been able to so easily transfer my knowledge. On the other hand I've already learned a lot of valuable information on escaping from bad positions. I haven't asked, "So, what do you do if you're attacked by TWO guys?" yet but I'm sure they'll have a really interesting answer. :D

A large emphasis is placed on sport/competition. I'm not sure how well I'll do with all this because I think I may lack the requisite aggressiveness. Struggling and squirming to put someone in a chokehold seems oddly undignified. In the meantime I only attend the "Fundamentals" class, though, and have learned a lot of great information about takedowns and positions.

[billybob]

FWIW when I started judo in mid 1970's as a skinny asthmatic child of 13 :P

my instructors felt that they would train us 'the old way'. This meant that they eschewed competition style training, and the 'new' scoring system allowing 1/4 and 1/2 points. This meant that the russle-tussle type training simply wasn't done. We focused on making full point or half point throws. (For you Ju Jitsu people, god bless you, and, in my opinion 'full point' equals "kill" - change a judo throw just a little, at that level of control, and uke gets carried off and buried).

Aikido seems to be searching for its identity now that our charismatic Founder has passed. I think perhaps Judo, at least how it is usually done in the U.S., made a mistake focusing on competition, and not on the teachings of their charismatic founder - Dr. Jigoro Kano.

Rumination T. Cornpone (david)

[Kevin Leavitt]

I don't think aikido is searching for it's identity as much as some aikidoka are searching for their's. I believe this is a normal course of progression in aikido and a big part of the process, without it, how do you grow?

I spend about 90% of my time these days focusing on BJJ and Army Combatives because of my job, I will tell you the more time I spend studying this stuff, the more I find myself referring to the basic principles in aikido. that is, slow down, good technique, concentrate on your center, use your hips, good posture.

I was looking at my above post (#81) that I wrote almost a year ago, that same wrestler a year ago...I just got back from working with him. He has become better, but right now we are spending our time doing what I just said, telling him to slow down, etc....

He says it feels weird not using his speed and strength, but that he is starting to get the whole thing. Entering that void can be very, very scary. It takes a special person willing to let go and trust the instructor and to deal with the feeling of the void!

He says he can now see things happening, they aren't as fast, and he is gaining dominance much quicker, and can anticipate what is going to happen next much better!

Have a good day!

[Minh Nguyen]

Technically, I believe that judo and aikido could not be more different because they are based on completely different concepts. My previous judo experience has helped me a lot in my aikido progression in the beginning, but it soon became a hindrance when I reached somewhat a higher level.

I wouldn't recommend doing both though. The natural progression would be to start in judo and then move to aikido. Doing the opposite doesn't seem very logical to me.

Cheers,

Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?

[CNYMike]

Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?

I think so, and getting them from the same senseil eliminates the questions of potential scheduling conflicts between different instructors.

At the end of the day, it's all about what works for you. If you want to do both, do it!

[gdandscompserv]

Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
As long as you do one of them with one eye closed!;)

[DonMagee]

Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?

If you are practicing them both for self defense, then they are just different training methods and tactics for self defense. That means just like how you can learn classical and rock guitar at the same time, you can also learn both of these.

If one is for self defense, and the other is not, then the question is the same as asking if you can practice both jiujitsu and soccer without conflict as they are two different physical things with different goals.

So I guess I'm saying yes you can. With one warning. When learning a new physical skill, you really need to dedicate 6 or more hours a week to it to truly build skill in my opinion. But if you have the time, then why not.

[James Wyatt]

Find a good judo teacher whom can teach traditional kodokan judo and the katas and you will be amazed at the similarity with aikido. The principles are the same
Ennjoy both
James

[georgejjr]

Just visited the site because of a thread started on a judo site (possibly to create conflict between judo and aikido practitioners), and noted this thread. Just a quick point from an old time judo and wrestling instructor who also teaches at a MMA club: no one does pure judo (or pure BJJ or pure boxing or pure aikido or pure anything) in MMA. MMA is a sport, and to do well in it you're going to have a good base in many aspects of grappling, throwing, and striking - no traditional art covers it.

So while the most successful judoka in MMA is Fedor Emelianko (he was on the Russian national judo team and placed in several international judo tournaments, giving him much better judo credentials than say Karo), judo/sambo is clearly only one part of what he does in MMA. The same is true for Karo and everyone else mentioned - they all cross train. Most discussions of judo (or any style) in MMA are pointless because in fact its all become part of the general toolkit, and the people chosen as "representatives" of a style are in fact representatives of many styles.

In the particular case of Yoshida vs Gardner, you had two individuals competing, neither of which should have been in the ring. Yoshida won his Olympic gold in 1992 fighting under 173 pounds, by the time he started MMA he was 50 pounds overweight and unable to win in international judo (possibly simply because he was in fact 50 pounds overweight and correspondingly out of shape). Rulon Gardner won in the super heavy (over 265 pound( division in 2000, but was too gentle a soul to become effective in the striking, which is why he never fought again in MMA - he didn't like punching people, and you cannot compete in MMA without doing so at least some of the time.

As for aikido and judo, they're more complimentary than anything else, in that they have similar principles working on different ranges - aikido at arms length and more, judo at clinching range. Both have their pluses and minuses, but if I were to teach someone self-defense I wouldn't start with either of them (or any unarmed art). Basic street sense (situations to avoid), and then if necessary weapons training is far more practical and easy to pick up for anyone. A person can be effective with a gun, knife, or stick in a day, and if we're talking about real self-defense rather than just going to the bar to pick fights, that is what they should be looking at.

We regularly tell people who start MMA, judo or wrestling for self-defense that since at least local police statistics say most self-defense situations involve multiple armed attackers (knives or firearms being most common) that they'd be much better off learning to use weapons than any unarmed art. If you can seriously avoid being swarmed or shot by five or more fit young men with knives, guns and baseball bats, you should be playing in the NFL. Otherwise you'll need a weapon yourself - and even then only if there is no other option. It only takes one bullet to change a successful defense into an untimely funeral.

Finally, though aikido isn't mentioned much in either judo or MMA circles (no more than I expect judo is mentioned in aikido circles), when it comes up its usually with respect for its footwork, posture, and wrist locks (which is all most of us know about it). The only place I've seen aikido put down as ineffective is on internet sites, and as always on the net its probably an attempt by trolls to create an argument.

Anyway, sorry for interfering with your thread, I just think much of the conflict between styles found in the net are artificial. I'll leave you in peace now.

[philippe willaume]

Can I practice Jujitsu and Aikido at the same time? My sensei teaches both Jujitsu and Aikido. The Jujitsu class is completely self defense. There is randori, but no competition.

Do you think I can do both arts at the same time?
You know as long it remains between consenting adults and that no child or animal are being hurt in the practice of the activity, you can pretty much do as you like.

You just need to be aware of what are the paradigm of each are and how the compare to what you want to achieve.
That being said some aikidos are naturally close to JJ or judo and some jj are quite close to aikido. Since you instructor practice both it is likely that you are in a case like that anyway.

phil

[salim]

Just visited the site because of a thread started on a judo site (possibly to create conflict between judo and aikido practitioners), and noted this thread. Just a quick point from an old time judo and wrestling instructor who also teaches at a MMA club: no one does pure judo (or pure BJJ or pure boxing or pure aikido or pure anything) in MMA. MMA is a sport, and to do well in it you're going to have a good base in many aspects of grappling, throwing, and striking - no traditional art covers it.

So while the most successful judoka in MMA is Fedor Emelianko (he was on the Russian national judo team and placed in several international judo tournaments, giving him much better judo credentials than say Karo), judo/sambo is clearly only one part of what he does in MMA. The same is true for Karo and everyone else mentioned - they all cross train. Most discussions of judo (or any style) in MMA are pointless because in fact its all become part of the general toolkit, and the people chosen as "representatives" of a style are in fact representatives of many styles.

In the particular case of Yoshida vs Gardner, you had two individuals competing, neither of which should have been in the ring. Yoshida won his Olympic gold in 1992 fighting under 173 pounds, by the time he started MMA he was 50 pounds overweight and unable to win in international judo (possibly simply because he was in fact 50 pounds overweight and correspondingly out of shape). Rulon Gardner won in the super heavy (over 265 pound( division in 2000, but was too gentle a soul to become effective in the striking, which is why he never fought again in MMA - he didn't like punching people, and you cannot compete in MMA without doing so at least some of the time.

As for aikido and judo, they're more complimentary than anything else, in that they have similar principles working on different ranges - aikido at arms length and more, judo at clinching range. Both have their pluses and minuses, but if I were to teach someone self-defense I wouldn't start with either of them (or any unarmed art). Basic street sense (situations to avoid), and then if necessary weapons training is far more practical and easy to pick up for anyone. A person can be effective with a gun, knife, or stick in a day, and if we're talking about real self-defense rather than just going to the bar to pick fights, that is what they should be looking at.

We regularly tell people who start MMA, judo or wrestling for self-defense that since at least local police statistics say most self-defense situations involve multiple armed attackers (knives or firearms being most common) that they'd be much better off learning to use weapons than any unarmed art. If you can seriously avoid being swarmed or shot by five or more fit young men with knives, guns and baseball bats, you should be playing in the NFL. Otherwise you'll need a weapon yourself - and even then only if there is no other option. It only takes one bullet to change a successful defense into an untimely funeral.

Finally, though aikido isn't mentioned much in either judo or MMA circles (no more than I expect judo is mentioned in aikido circles), when it comes up its usually with respect for its footwork, posture, and wrist locks (which is all most of us know about it). The only place I've seen aikido put down as ineffective is on internet sites, and as always on the net its probably an attempt by trolls to create an argument.

Anyway, sorry for interfering with your thread, I just think much of the conflict between styles found in the net are artificial. I'll leave you in peace now.

George,

Excellent points. I appreciate your honesty and practicalities. I hope you return often to Aikiweb. Your sense of reality regarding self defense is greatly appreciated.

[Minh Nguyen]

You know as long it remains between consenting adults and that no child or animal are being hurt in the practice of the activity, you can pretty much do as you like.

You just need to be aware of what are the paradigm of each are and how the compare to what you want to achieve.
That being said some aikidos are naturally close to JJ or judo and some jj are quite close to aikido. Since you instructor practice both it is likely that you are in a case like that anyway.

phil

Thank you for your answer!
Since I will practice both arts simultaneously with the same amount of time, I think there may be a cross path. Do you think that I may mix techniques from Jujitsu in Aikido randori by any chance?

[CNYMike]

..... no one does pure judo (or pure BJJ or pure boxing or pure aikido or pure anything) in MMA .....

I don't know if anyone does totally pure Aikido in Aikido. Many of the people I train with and under do other things and have done other things, including me. I work very hard to "compartmentalize" all the arts I do, partly out of respect and partly to keep my head from exploding. But I don't know if it can be helped; what's in your muscle memory is in there.

.... I just think much of the conflict between styles found in the net are artificial. I'll leave you in peace now.

I agree. You never see this in real life, with someone sticking his head in the dojo door to argue, do you? I haven't. In reality, people vote with their feet, staying away from what's not right for them.

But thanks for stopping by and don't be a stranger.

[philippe willaume]

Thank you for your answer!
Since I will practice both arts simultaneously with the same amount of time, I think there may be a cross path. Do you think that I may mix techniques from Jujitsu in Aikido randori by any chance?
It really depends on what your Guv thinks about it. I would ask him directly. He is the on that may use you as a tatami cleaning implement (in Japanese, it is called UKE) for a session or two.
If your randori are kokuy based, it may be a bit un- sportsman like to put full technique, as the idea is to use the kokuy equivalent of a technique. (I.e. you are doing a kokyu throw but you could have done the corresponding full on technique).

If it is everything goes as an attack type of randory, then well anything goes in defense.

In any case I would select the people on which I do it as well, anyone with a skirt should be able to cope with it, bearing in mind age and body built that is.

According to the aikido and jj you are doing the point may be very moot anyway or may be you do have randori in jj as well so may be mixing and matching may be against what the coach/teacher is trying to get accross.

All that being said, Remember the aikido saying
“He who you snot hard, will snot you back harder when it is its turn”
It is a very aiki way to bring balance and harmony in the world.

Philippe

[numazu]

Gracie JJ was just a cunning way to rebadge Judo newaza. If an Olympic Judoka focused on his newaza he would be equally match to the so called Gracie JJ (Judo) as seen by Yoshida in his matches with Gracie.
Rebadging martial arts and calling them your own is a good way to make money and start a school.
Gracie was great at what he did - for a guy as small as him to take on bigger fighters and win was amazing. Its not street self defense though to sandbag and wrap someone up on the pavement unless you want a kick in head.
Geoff Thompson is probably the best self defece specialist I have seen and he doesnt even involve martial arts at all in his talks.

[Stormcrow34]

Gracie JJ was just a cunning way to rebadge Judo newaza. If an Olympic Judoka focused on his newaza he would be equally match to the so called Gracie JJ (Judo) as seen by Yoshida in his matches with Gracie.
Rebadging martial arts and calling them your own is a good way to make money and start a school.
Gracie was great at what he did - for a guy as small as him to take on bigger fighters and win was amazing. Its not street self defense though to sandbag and wrap someone up on the pavement unless you want a kick in head.
Geoff Thompson is probably the best self defece specialist I have seen and he doesnt even involve martial arts at all in his talks.

Kinda sounds a little like Professor Kano, and those before him, and those before him...and...don't the Gracies all include Mitsuyo Maeda, a seventh Dan Kodokan teacher in their lineage?

I'm also pretty sure GJJ has a great deal of Nage waza along with Katame waza...

FWIW, Relson is very adamant on how important it is to stay on your feet in a self defense/street situation. It's something like; "Move your head, close the distance, get kuzushi, THROW, and then get out of there."

Why do people always insist GJJ or BJJ exclusively focus on Ne-waza?

Not trying to give you a hard time here, but why not try some personal, hands-on research?

[Michael Neal]

Wow, it has been a long time since this discussion took place. I have been on a hiatus from martial arts for several years since my son was born.

Looking back I think both my Aikido and Judo were at their best when I was training in both. I am trying to get back to Judo again and will probably go to Aikido again after I get my Judo Shodan. It will be a herculean effort due to the poor shape I am in so I will probably need to take BJJ as well to get enough training time a week in.

Aikido is definitely on the horizon again though because I see it as an advanced martial art, a place to fine tune advanced skills. Without other martial experience it is limited but it allows you take existing skills to a new level.

[Randall Lim]

I just went ahead and took a class in the local Judo school.
I have no Judo experience. I have studied Aikido for 4 years.

It was a 2 hour class.
First we started with warmups which involved jogging around the mat, jogging around the mat backwards, sliding around the mat sideways, front rolls, backward rolls, that wheel thing that I cannot do, some stretches, 10 "Judo-pushups", a forward and backward "bridge" and other crap.

There was also a sort of a "punching sausagebag" which was put in the middle of the room vertically and we had to jump and roll over it. I did pretty well, asides from slightly tipping it in flight and knocking it over.
Twice.

Then we had to crawl, then crawl while sitting and using the back part of the feet, and then crawl backwards sitting while using the uh... basically... butt movement.

Then there was the technique portion, where we practiced some takedown, then seionage (not shihonage!) and then how to do seionage when the first takedown fails.

Apparently in Judo resistance is encouraged and so I gave resistance, probably too much, just having Aikido posture and shifting weight/stepping away/turning knees when I felt disbalanced, and pretty much stopping the other guy's technique.
So I easened up on it a bit because I didn't want to be the analog of Aikido's "bad uke". The rules are fuzzy to me at this point.

I kept trying to do iriminage instead of grabbing the guy's collar behind his neck and I always kept letting go of my grab after the throw, which is wrong in Judo.
I was also not close enough initially.

In Judo you really feel the consequences of a sloppy technique. REALLY.

After techniques there was the randori session which I stayed out of.
Some guys were a tad too young and teenage-y angsty for my taste(had the whole "ya lookin' at me ? ill give you evil eye" syndrome going), and I was not sure my ukemi could handle their possible lack of emotional self-control.

Some guy explicitly explained to me the differences between martial art and a sport art, and that people really aren't rewarded for breaking wrists in sport competitions.

After the class was over, I came up to a guy who looked relatively sane and calm, and asked him to do a light randori session with me, if possible minus the super high falls.

I managed to throw him using seionage, to my surprise.

Then another guy who came in late and wasn't sweating much, decided to spar with me. I was already out of breath.
Initially I locked him into a sankyo, and I could've locked him down but I didn't want to risk breaking his wrist as he didn't know the ukemi.

Soon enough I just stopped trying because I was really tired, and just was mostly on the defensive as he kept using the same hip throw to land me on the floor.
I was too tired to figure out how to stop it.

The instructor, a former Judo champion from Soviet Union (where I migrated from too, coincidentally), seemed initially like a big contrast to a typical Aikido Sensei.
At the end of the children's class (before the class I attended) when he was making kids spar, he was yelling things like "You're disappointing me ! Don't laugh, fight ! Don't just stand there ! Don't let him just throw you ! Why are you crying ? Cry later, fight now !" etc etc.

But during the adult class I saw that he was a man with powerful technique but not the typical "Cobra Kai evil master".
He has self control and he is kind, just not so kind when students are slacking off.

At the end of my after-class sparring with that newly-appeared guy, I finally got slammed into the ground too fast and my tired reflexes didn't cushion the fall, so I got my air knocked out of me.
Even my voice changed a little for a minute...

The prior times I've been thrown by this guy, however, Aikido breakfalls have served me better than I anticipated.
The mats in the dojo are also harder than mats in my Aikido dojo.

At the end of class the instructor demonstrated to me that he also knows Aikido techniques. He has great respect for Aikido, and his opinion is that it is a fast and deadly art.
"On the street, I would not use Judo. I would use Aikido." he said, and then did an intense version of one of those Aikido "float uke up and throw" throws.

He also demonstrated katate tori kokyunage, katatetori ikkyo, etc, all very energetic and lightning fast.

He said, that Aikido needs Judo to work, basically. Aikido is the highest level art and it cannot work without Judo.
He's a good guy.

Now I'm sitting here with slightly shaky hands, bruised fingers and some bruises on my legs which will probably only show up tomorrow.

I really don't know what am I supposed to do here.

I went to try Judo to experience the feeling of real competition and I got it.

But in our Aikido class we have some ex-Judo people who got fed up with it.
I can sort of see how some things about Judo dojo can start eating at them after a while - probably a higher injury rate and in general non-peaceful, competitive atmosphere having to do something with it.

On the other hand Judo will allow me to learn things that are simple, proven to work, and effective.
Ugly, but effective against a single opponent.

This instructor guy has JuJitsu/Aikido/Tai Chi skills which are backed up practically by his competitive Judo skills. If he can make Tai Chi work against Mike Tyson, I wouldn't be surprised.

Blah. So that's that.
I have a feeling that I may need Judo to have strong Aikido.
On the other hand, I have a feeling that my recent jiyu-waza sessions in Aikido have been improving, and I've been really getting into the whole flowing thing.

Studying Judo at this point will not confuse me in technique and footwork but it MAY confuse my mind and prevent the "Aiki" mindset needed for Aikido techniques. Blah.

I would be really curious to hear what someone like Peter Rehse or someone else who crosstrains in Judo has to say about this... to help me clear my mind.

Most Judo Dojos around the world are sadly competition-oriented.
Even there is no one who competes, their mentality is still competitive. Judo training revolves around competition rules.
Whatever techniques works well (within the rules), regardless of the presence of "Ju" (Gentleness), is encouraged.
Most Judo techniques work well with physical strength. Physical strength is much easier to cultivate then the ability to yield to your opponent's force to use it against him in competitions or sparring.

Only many years after competitive Judo does a mature Judoka gradually begin to experience real "Ju" while training at his own leisure pace.

Speak to mature Judokas in their 60s or 70s. Observe how their Judo techniques have evolved from the aggressive & physical-strengthen dependent ways, to the softer, relaxed, yielding ways of "Ju".

This is what Judo should be. Sadly it would take at least 20 years of Judo training for most Judokas to discover this.

[Cyrijl]

Are you familiar with the history of Judo? Competition was there from the start. I think what you are confused with is the idea of the Olympic ruleset which has narrowed Judo over time. Not all judo schools focus on that ruleset.

[JP3]

Noted-read this old thread, and wanted to drop my penny's worth of input.

Stormcrow wrote, "Why do people always insist GJJ or BJJ exclusively focus on Ne-waza??

I don't know, but I can say that at the three BJJ clubs I've trained at (about 3 years worth is all) - quite good naewaza players all - they did NOT want to stand up to start. Only guys who cross-trained would, as it wasn't foreign to them, and because it was foreign, it was unknown, and because it was unknown, it was feared.

Don't mistake me, I don't mean fear in the sense of running screaming and crying, nah. BJJ guys/girls doen't usually strike me as the shrinking violet type. Just the, "No, I don't want to do that, even if it is helpful" sort of thing. Apprehension is a better word, but that's just a synonym for fear with the volume knob turned down. That's my personal impression, and opinions vary - I understand that.

I would guess that, at these three schools, one of a few things happened or are happening: 1) the head teacher/instructor doesn't know his "take-downs" (throws) well enough to be comfortable with that instruction (not terribly likely, though I'm sure it does happen sometimes); 2) the student body sort of passively-aggressively avoids throwing waza; or 3) there's actually a bit of narrow-mindedness going on in those schools - they have PLENTY to learn just on the ground. Naewaza can become it's own universe, if people let it be so. Problem is, fights usually start upright, right? Even competitions in BJJ, the opponents start standing up. So, at good schools, they work through the entire match, from tanding apart to the finishing spectrum.

As to the original post, I'm of the opinion that some serious and long-term training in a good, not totally competition directed (meaning going to tournaments on a regular gbasis) judo school is only helpful to aikido competence. For one thing, the judo throws can be very quick, and the tori can, but usually does not in friendly practice, control uke while falling so that they either do, or do NOT, fall properly. High-level skill, I get that, but very effective if one wished to hurt an attacker, yes?

Judo, in mindset at the schools I've trained at for the past two decades, is inherently competitive, as the "rules" are set up as a sport, points for this and that, disqualification/penalties for doing this or that "illegal" technique. Mind you, even if you are not at a tournament, and you are watching the old, gentle guys doing randori, there is an aspect of competition there. It IS supposed to be fun, some people seem to lose that in the drive to Win.

There is much worth in the checking of one's competence against someone else, as long as both have a good time, gain from the experience, and nobody gets hurt in practice. The original post's Russian judo instructor, while working with the kids' class, sounded just like any other "Coach," in that terms usual meaning, i.e. football, basketball, wrestling, drill instructor, etc. A person who sees his/her job as to get people to do things which they themselves do not think themselves capable. Specifically with kids, motivation can't really be on the adult level to get maximum response from the kids except in the rare circumstance of the very mature athletic child. Most kids need the push to get the most from them .... otherwise we would not HAVE coaches, there'd just be football Teachers. IMO.

Judo is great for me as a competitive outlet, even when playing very light, almost no resistance randori - move here, turn there, pull this/that, wait for technique to arrive... or not, don't force things, and see who can manipulate the chaos the better. It is fun. And, being inside that chaos in a controlled set of conditions, and in a comfortable place to learn, is translatable into the street defense situation. Has been for me.

Ok, all done.