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David Yap
04-01-2004, 11:06 PM
Hi all,

Other then the chart available from Aikido Journal, is there any other "accurate" lineage chart of Aikido that is available on the Net?

In a very broad sense we are all students of O Sensei since we are learning the art of Aikido that was created by him. Most of us are often awed by the term "Uchideshi of O Sensei" and "Direct student of O Sensei". In the real meaning/sense of the above terms, who exactly fall/fell under these categories. Where and when did they received direct tutelage from O Sensei?

We had a visitor in our dojo yesterday. Before class, he introduced him as a "uchideshi" of Y sensei who is a direct student of X shihan (a globally renowned shihan) who was a "uchideshi" of O Sensei. He was trying to awe us with his "lineage". The lineage thing was soon thrown out of the window after the class began.

Regards

David

PeterR
04-01-2004, 11:45 PM
Hi David;

Lineage sets context that's it. If he was trying to "over-awe" then most likely he was trying to "over-compensate".

This sort of exaggeration goes on all the time and not just in Aikido. People that were present one or two times when Ueshiba M. taught all of a sudden become direct students with a "special understanding".

I always state my lineage but mainly to get away with not being able to do things exactly in the way its done at the place I visit. An out if you will.

You also have to ask yourself - why were you over-awed in the first place.

batemanb
04-02-2004, 01:00 AM
Hi all,

We had a visitor in our dojo yesterday. Before class, he introduced him as a "uchideshi" of Y sensei who is a direct student of X shihan (a globally renowned shihan) who was a "uchideshi" of O Sensei. He was trying to awe us with his "lineage". The lineage thing was soon thrown out of the window after the class began.

Regards

David
This may have nothing to do with "awing" anyone. It may purely be to outline who Y Sensei is because no one else knew him, or to credit Y Sensei.

I have done something similar in my own bio, certainly not to create awe for anyone, no one knows me save the people who read my scrawlings here, or the people who train with me in the dojo. I would guess that almost 99.99% of these people have no idea who Nakao Sensei, Nojima Sensei or Koyama Sensei are, unless I tell. The purpose being to credit these Sensei with their lineage, I`m sure it doesn`t impress anyone that I study with them, at least it shouldn`t.

Regards

Bryan

David Yap
04-02-2004, 01:43 AM
This sort of exaggeration goes on all the time and not just in Aikido. People that were present one or two times when Ueshiba M. taught all of a sudden become direct students with a "special understanding".
I tend to agree too.
You also have to ask yourself - why were you over-awed in the first place.
I didn't state that I was over-awed. I guess I was disappointed with the person who didn't meet up to the lineage he proclaimed to have.
This may have nothing to do with "awing" anyone. It may purely be to outline who Y Sensei is because no one else knew him, or to credit Y Sensei.
There is common saying in MA, "You can always tell the quality of the teacher by looking at his students". I wouldn't use the lineage set context if I didn't know my worth - the danger is that it may bring discredit to my teacher and his teacher before him. In this instance, this was what the visitor did in terms of techniques and conduct during the class.

Regards

David

PeterR
04-02-2004, 02:06 AM
I didn't state that I was over-awed. I guess I was disappointed with the person who didn't meet up to the lineage he proclaimed to have.
That's right you didn't - sorry.

It's my experience that those that make a fuss about their background are not the best that that particular background has to offer.

Elitism is the domain of the weak.

Williamross77
01-20-2005, 02:07 AM
i do think there should be a coprehensive lineage chart...
i'll start,... I trained under Sosa Sensei and Lynn Fabia Sensei(20 years under Sosa, Kobiyash and Tohei, He trained under Takahashi, Koichi Tohei and Kobiyashi Senseis, They trained under O'Sensei...

Williamross77
01-20-2005, 02:08 AM
sorry comprehensive
and Fabia Sensei studied 20 years
i studied 5 after 10 years in kenpo and jujitsu.

Bronson
01-20-2005, 10:38 AM
He trained under Takahashi, Koichi Tohei and Kobiyashi Senseis, They trained under O'Sensei...

AFAIK Rod Kobayashi Sensei didn't claim O-Sensei as one of his teachers. He credited Yukiso Yamamoto, Kazuto Sugimoto, and Isao Takahashi from the Hawaii Aikikai as being his first teachers and of course his main instruction came from Koichi Tohei.

This is of course assuming that in the quoted sentece you are still talking about R. Kobayashi in the USA and not Yasuo Kobayashi in Japan :D

Bronson

Tadhg Bird
01-20-2005, 11:08 AM
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with stating your lineage, yet it should be recognized for what it is, just a list of your teachers -- it does not say how good a student you were of them.

It can be useful to explain slight differences in style, but our spirit and ability become clear when we get on the mat.

We ALWAYS represent our teachers, even if those we are training with don't know who they are.

In my situation, moving to a community and begining to teach, its only fair to my students that they know my lineage, and give them opprotunity to contact my teacher if they choose.

Lyle Laizure
01-20-2005, 11:25 AM
As a guest instructor I wouldn't think it necessary to define linage as the person who invited you would I think make that information available. It's like dropping names otherwise

Williamross77
01-20-2005, 12:36 PM
Thanks on that info about Rod Kobiyashi,
Sosa Sensei also credits Takahashi in this way.
Still i Think it would be nice if there were a universal "tree" to view.
Not intended as "name droping", but to know and research if needed.
I also am not sure how much if at all Takahashi trained under O'Sensei.

rob_liberti
01-20-2005, 12:58 PM
When we meet people who have an impressive lineage but don't have much ability, we call them "potatoes" becaue he best part of them is in the ground. :)

Bronson
01-20-2005, 02:05 PM
I also am not sure how much if at all Takahashi trained under O'Sensei.

This got me interested so I Googled his name.

From Aikido Journal's Encyclopedia:
(1912-6 February 1972). 7th dan Aikikai [awarded posthumously]. B. Maui, Hawaii. Lived in Japan from age five to ten. Attained high rankings in kendo and judo. Takahashi was one of the first to study aikido under Koichi TOHEI in 1953 in Honolulu and became a pioneer of the art in Hawaii. He relocated to Los Angeles in 1960 to become the chief instructor of the Los Angeles Aikikai. He later moved to Chicago to serve as chief instructor of the Illinois Aikido Club. Takahashi was a major force in the early development of aikido in the western United States. He remained active until a few months before his death due to stomach cancer.

Bronson

Joe Bowen
01-20-2005, 06:32 PM
You all are correct. Lineage is only useful to a point. I know of a guy who called himself a "2nd Generation" student of O Sensei because his teacher studied under one of O Sensei's Uchideshi and he spent four days at a special camp with that particular Sensei. This was more of a selling point than anything else. It was not indicative of his ability....

xuzen
01-20-2005, 09:31 PM
Lineage serves a purpose. It defines who we are and how we came about. Imagine you are a subcarnial orthopedic surgeon whilst attending a professional conference, you meet a fellow orthopedic surgeon, it is quite inevitable you will ask each other for your roots (e.g. your university, name of teacher: I did my specialization under prof. so and so.) Why should aikido be any different? Aikido world is still small; relatively speaking and many of us are only still at 2nd or 3rd gen aikidoka from the founder. Besides, asking about lineage is a good ice-breaker IMO.

Boon.

tedehara
01-21-2005, 02:23 AM
...I also am not sure how much if at all Takahashi trained under O'Sensei.Isao Takahashi Sensei was personally invited to spend a couple of weeks with the founder at Iwama. As far as I know, that was the only significant time he spent with O Sensei.

This occurred during the time he was chief instructor of the Illinois Aikido Club.