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Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-26-2004, 12:39 AM
A while ago, my little brother and I were messing around with aikido techniques. He did something where...hmm, how to describe this.

I guess you could get to the position by having uke hold his/her arm out, then rotating it to palm up and thumb pointing back. (knife edge 'facing' nage) Then nage comes up and applies hyperextending pressure to the elbow.

What is that? Is it a real control?

I guess it reminds me of hiji-ate nage ('hitting elbow throw', in Yoshokai; I believe it's classified as a kokyu-nage in other styles), but that's usually done with nage in the other direction. You don't normally throw someone back like this. Or do you?

Anyway. Thoughts from the wiser?

Benjie Lu
03-26-2004, 01:10 AM
Well I'm guessing that you're applying hiji-ate in reverse, that is you're facing uke instead of being side by side and throwing with a forward circular movement. The hyperextension of the elbow is really part of the throw for hiji ate nage but care should be taken in performing this technique since the elbow can easily be broken by this technique. To throw from this position I normally prefer to do a kokyu type throw cutting down on the extended arm or going in and applying an irimi nage (neck throw).

I hope I understood your question correctly. =) Regards and keep on training!

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-26-2004, 01:27 AM
You seem to be on the same page. Yes, the cutting kokyu-nage would be my usual instinct too. I was wondering if any style formally uses this sort of positioning for a technique.

Greg Jennings
03-26-2004, 07:07 AM
Hmm.

There are two ways to rotate the hand such that the palm is up.

One way puts the back of the elbow facing up as in a normal ikkyo.

The other rotation puts the crease of the elbow facing up as in shihonage.

I know of several variations of the basic forms from those positions. We just call most of them henkawaza.

We, just locally, call one of my favorites nanakyo. It was just the next number available...

The easiest to visualize is the ura form:

1. Start as in yokomenuchi shihonage.

2. At the point you would normally raise uke's arm and enter under it...

3. Rather, put the palm of your inside hand on uke's arm such that your tegatana is firmly in the crease of uke's elbow.

4. Spiral uke to the mat by stepping forward with your inside foot and blending into a tenkan.

FWIW,

David Edwards
03-26-2004, 07:25 AM
Isn't that really just yokomenuchi ikkyo tenkan then? Or yokomenuchi ikkyo ura-waza, whatever you'd prefer to all it.

Perhaps I misread you, but it's just how it looks to me.

Magma
03-26-2004, 08:41 AM
David-

I think he is describing something different than ikkyo. I think he is rotating the hand in a different direction (along the lines of shihonage, where the elbow goes *down* rather than in ikkyo where the elbow rotates *up*). So, when you push on the elbow with your hand (I like to use the inside web of my thumb and forefinger rather than the edge of my tegatana - more control, I think), the elbow goes under. Uke's arm makes a 'V' shape, with the elbow being pushed forward of the hand.

Once you get there, you can imagine the tenkan takedown that was described, with the pin made with the elbow against the ground and the hand above the ground (still in the 'V'), being pulled back so that the shoulder wants to rotate open but cannot.

I think that's what was being described - very different from ikkyo tenkan. If I have misunderstood, I apologize for further muddying the waters.

Greg Jennings
03-26-2004, 09:53 AM
No, Tim, you're correct.

The salient point is that uke's arm is rotated as in shihonage, not as in ikkyo.

I used to use the web between my thumb and index finger also. In another technique, though, I split that web during vigorous practice.

Since then, in conjunction with some other review of fundamental practices, I prefer palm contact in all my techniques.

Regards,

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-26-2004, 10:06 AM
Hmm, thank you. I was thinking of an elbow-pressure (hyper-extension, rather than 'v') control, though. That's a pretty neat technique you've described; I'll have to try it out. ^_^

From yokomenuchi shihonage, at the same point (just before turn and raise up), we sometimes apply a hiji-ate type control before ducking under. The throw is usually then a moving-backwards motion.

It seems that if you rotate uke's arm a bit from that position - that is, so that it's not quite palm up and thumb back, but really the thumb is starting to point at the ground - you could use this to execute a throw that would send uke into a back breakfall.

Greg Jennings
03-26-2004, 10:06 AM
Oh, let me clarify:

I do not extend my tegatana into the crease of uke's elbow. (at least initally...)

I was trying to describe that I have a palm-to-extreme-upper-forearm connection.

When I cut out and during the tenkan, without giving up my palm to forearm connection, have a feeling of using the tegatana in the create of the elbow as a fulcrum.

Most of the time, I also extend through the outside hand and thus don't put much of a 'V' in uke's arm.

FWIW,

David Edwards
03-26-2004, 10:48 AM
Ahaaaaaa.... I see. Although I see how it works (I think, anyway; without a partner available at the moment I can't be sure, of course), but I also think that if I found myself in that situation, I'd probably do it only if a "proper" ikkyo was eluding me. As a rule, my personal way of doing things when not in a strictly Aikido environment is somewhat eclectic, using the idea "If it works, go with it", but I'd still aim for techniques that I know for sure are good, and I've done them lots of times. Of course I always try new things as well, but then Aikido is a pyramid of things, with the basic techniques being rather more important (at least, the way (I think) most ppl see it) than off-shoot "interesting" techniques...

Greg Jennings
03-26-2004, 11:05 AM
In the form I described, I think it's better thought of as one of many techniques available from a shihonage-ish setup.

One more thought: A lot of people will blend with the shihonage-ish extension to the point that the seriously offer you their back.

At that point, you have better options that the technique I talked about.

Regards,

mantis
03-26-2004, 12:15 PM
Paul, in Tomiki Aikido, we have a technique called Hiki-Otoshi, and it seems to be similar to what you are describing. Pressure is applied to Uke's elbow from below as you face each other.

One way it can be used is when you go into shiho-nage, or mae-otoshi (similar to hiji-ate) and you are behind ukes R arm (Your R hand on uke's R wrist), and uke overpowers you (by pivoting towards you) and is now facing you and you are now inside of ukes arm.

As Uke starts to overpower you and pivots, pass off uke's wrist to your Left hand and attack his elbow from below (by applying pressure upward) with your R hand (this is the position you seem to be describing). This stalls uke momentarily and forces him on his tiptoes.

As his weight falls forward (floats) and he takes a step towards you, step back and throw him down the line of his feet. (making sure to avoid his L hand if he were to strike at you).

It's hard for me to write how this works, so I hope it's not to confusing. I've seen Hiki-Otoshi done a few different ways, so maybe someone else can add to what I described.

Greg Jennings
03-26-2004, 12:46 PM
Thought this might help:

http://homepage2.nifty.com/shodokan/en/kyogi10d.html

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-26-2004, 01:19 PM
Ah, very interesting...thanks. Although it occurs to me that my own post was erroneous. What I described /would/ be hiji-ate.

I'll grab my little brother and snap a photo to post.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-26-2004, 06:11 PM
I was about to take the photo...when it occurred to me what I was describing.

It's like kotegaeshi, but instead of both hands on the wrist, the 'inside' hand pushes the elbow up. But the same shoulder-turn as kotegaeshi produces.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-26-2004, 06:23 PM
Well, more like turns the elbow along with the wrist rotation.

Is this ever actually done in waza?

Greg Jennings
03-26-2004, 09:13 PM
Sure. We do that as a kokyunage.

Best,