Cross-training

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[JiuJitsuka87]

I started martial arts in Pil Seung Hapkido, then started training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This summer, I want to cross-train in a different art since I will have more free time.

I am interested in Judo or Aikido. My reasons for cross-training are primarily:
1. Fun, learning new techniques, new ways to approach problems, new people
2. Better stand-up grappling

I also know Aikido has a spiritual side, which I would be interested in. So far I have read "Aikido Basics" put out by Tuttle Martial Arts and the "Shambhala Guide to Aikido."

The local schools I know of are Tomiki-ryu. I live in Oklahoma if that helps.

Also if anyone from UCO see's this, drop me a line, I saw some of you guys at the BJJ tourney in Dallas last weekend! Let's talk!

[PeterR]

You are in luck - William Sharp teaches Shodokan (Tomiki) Aikido in Tulsa. I suppose this is the Tomiki school in your area. Please say hello to William when you see him - just by coincidence I used his Glossary of Jujutsu terms on the tomiki (http://www.tomiki.org) site this morning.

Tomiki concentrates on the more practical - you wont get much philosophy. It also has a form of full resistance randori which you can eventually get into. I also think Willaim's group has a Judo/Jujutsu element to it. Worth checking out.
I started martial arts in Pil Seung Hapkido, then started training Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. This summer, I want to cross-train in a different art since I will have more free time.

I am interested in Judo or Aikido. My reasons for cross-training are primarily:

1. Fun, learning new techniques, new ways to approach problems, new people

2. Better stand-up grappling

I also know Aikido has a spiritual side, which I would be interested in. So far I have read "Aikido Basics" put out by Tuttle Martial Arts and the "Shambhala Guide to Aikido."

The local schools I know of are Tomiki-ryu. I live in Oklahoma if that helps.

[JiuJitsuka87]

Tulsa is too far away.

The nearest dojo is Windsong in OKC. I live in Norman. UCO is in Edmond, and I happened to talk to a few of the Aikido practicioners this weekend at a tournament in Dallas. They just went to a BJJ tourney for the fun of it.

I have heard mixed things about Tomiki. I like the full-randori aspect of it, I believe sparring is very beneficial and absolutely necessary for practical application.

[mantis]

check out:

http://www.windsongdojo.com

[PeterR]

The Windsong Dojo is from an off-shoot of Tomiki Aikido, Nick Lowry is a student of Karl Geis who had some limited exposure to Kenji Tomiki. They don't do randori in the Shodokan way but they do have a Judo program. I can't comment on the quality of either but they have been around for quite awhile and are worth checking out in my opinion.

Seems everyone has an opinion about Tomiki Aikido - even it they've never seen it. Check it out - make up your own mind.
Tulsa is too far away.

The nearest dojo is Windsong in OKC. I live in Norman. UCO is in Edmond, and I happened to talk to a few of the Aikido practicioners this weekend at a tournament in Dallas. They just went to a BJJ tourney for the fun of it.

I have heard mixed things about Tomiki. I like the full-randori aspect of it, I believe sparring is very beneficial and absolutely necessary for practical application.

[JiuJitsuka87]

i checked out the windsong dojo, financially I am unsure. If the UCO Budo Society (offshoot that is on campus at UCO) is a wee-bit cheaper, I could do some training there over the summer.

[Bronson]

The dojo search engine returned two dojo within 17 miles of Norman OK. One is the Windsong dojo and the other is Jiyushinkan affiliate.

Bronson

[David Edwards]

I've only seen Tomiki Aikido in practice once, and wasn't so impressed by it. It seems to me to be Aikido with the Aiki taken out of it. Of course, it still has the physical aspects of Aiki, to a degree; but beginners especially will surely find themselves using their muscles a lot like Judoka.

I might be wrong, but it just seems like Tomiki Aikido is a system of techniques that look like Aikido techniques but are done in Judo fashion. I'm sure that at a higher level Aikido principles will come into it; but surely such principles should be considered more important in the outset, rather than an emphasis on competition?

[Chris Birke]

David,

I think you are right. Using compeition in order to better both participants is totally not aiki. It's like taking something harmful and trying to redirect it into something useful. That's just not gonna happen in real life™!

[Greg Jennings]

Now that Chris has run up his gigantic lightening rod, I'm cringing waiting for the bolts....

[David Edwards]

David,

I think you are right. Using compeition in order to better both participants is totally not aiki. It's like taking something harmful and trying to redirect it into something useful. That's just not gonna happen in real life™!
The question here is whether the competition really does better both participants, no? I'll concede that sometimes it's good to be able to try out techniques, but you're not going to have anything like a RL situation when fighting against another Aikidoka. Occasionally if I feel the need to try out to see if I can make something work, I pay a visit to my friend's Judo club, and test whether I'm doing it right on them. But if I tried to do that all the time, then there'd be a hell of a lot of testing, and precious little actual learning. Granted, competition isn't the be-all-and-end-all of Tomiki Aikido, but it is a very big part of it, and it's just my opinion that it's too much emphasis on competing and correspondingly not enough emphasis on learning the basics.

[Ron Tisdale]

but it is a very big part of it,
And you base this on???

RT

[Yann Golanski]

"Those who understand, understand perfectly"

That said, I can't speak for all Tomiki/Shodokan clubs, just for the little section I have seen and trained in.

Out of a two hours lesson about 30 to 45 minutes are spend on basics. The rest varies depending on what sensei has in mind. Generally we do try to have at least 10 mins of randori/tai sabaki/toshu/whatever at the end of the class. In fact, basics is what I enjoy the most at the moment since without it the rest is build on sand.

I must admit I am confused by the statement "taking something harmful and redirecting into something useful never works in real life". Surly that's what Osensei was teaching as the basis for Aiki: take an attack (something harmful) and use it (something useful). ...I must have understood that wrong...

...

[David Edwards]

And you base this on???
Talking to Tomiki Aikido students. That said, Yann's classes seem to have been "better" weighted.

And Yann, with regard to your confusion with regard to taking something harmful and redirecting it into something useful... I could of course be woefully wrong, but I detected a hint of sarcasm in Chris's post.

[p00kiethebear]

I'd give both aikido and judo a try since both are pretty cool arts. It seems like we get asked alot of the "which one should i do" questions on here. And honestly, the only answer i can give is TRY THEM! Most dojos and sensei's will be pretty nice about letting you try one class for free (or for a very low mat fee)

Reading about them will only take you so far. So (this is just personally what i'd do, i don't know what your financial situation is) what i would do is try each one for a month and just see which one speaks to me more. There is no law that says you have to stick with either one for the rest of your life. And if you end up not liking one of them, you'll at least be able to say you tried it, and you know it isn't for you.

If you're looking for "Stand up grappling" i'm not sure how much of that you'll get in aikido, in my dojo we don't do alot of it. But hey don't believe me! i'm sure there are dojos out there that do a good portion of grappling.

Good luck!

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

I've heard good things about Tomiki here and there, and the Tomiki people on this site seem knowledgeable. But there is some stigma associated with them. I have to admit, my opinion of the style is 'uncertain', given my limited exposure. I remember watching a video clip and being apalled. It was some big tournament, and during the match, /the crowd started shouting at the aikidoka!/ Things like, "YEAH! GET 'IM!" and "PUSH 'IM OUT! WOOOOOO!" It was honestly disgusting.

On the other hand, that same tournament produced some stunning video clips of a senior sensei performing techniques. Nariyama? Was that it? I don't know off-hand. He was so quick and precise. Such strong presence, too. I was very impressed.

So I guess it's not so much Tomiki-ryu, it's just their crowds. ^_-

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

I must admit I am confused by the statement "taking something harmful and redirecting into something useful never works in real life". Surly that's what Osensei was teaching as the basis for Aiki: take an attack (something harmful) and use it (something useful). ...I must have understood that wrong...

...
I'm with Yann.

[Paul Sanderson-Cimino]

In retrospect, my above post (#16) was tangential to the thread, which is about finding a place to train. As I said above, this was more being upset by the lack of respect shown by the crowd than a belief that Tomiki-ryu is somehow 'inferior'. To speak plainly, I happen to personally be wary of competition in aikido. However, I didn't mean to try to spark a flame war. I can't go back and delete the post on account of the 15 minute time limit, but I wanted to apologize. If people wish to make a reply, I'd prefer it if we could shift to a new topic.

[p00kiethebear]

I must admit I am confused by the statement "taking something harmful and redirecting into something useful never works in real life". Surly that's what Osensei was teaching as the basis for Aiki: take an attack (something harmful) and use it (something useful). ...I must have understood that wrong...

I also agree, i think o sensei was about as real life as you can get, if not more so.

[PeterR]

On the other hand, that same tournament produced some stunning video clips of a senior sensei performing techniques. Nariyama? Was that it? I don't know off-hand. He was so quick and precise. Such strong presence, too. I was very impressed.

So I guess it's not so much Tomiki-ryu, it's just their crowds. ^_-
Nariyama Tetsuro is Shihan of Shodokan Honbu and frankly speaking demonstrates some of the best Aikido you are likely to meet. Some of his students are right up there also. I really believe the lessons of randori are what makes this happen.

A Ki society member visiting Japan asked me to take him to Honbu dojo so he could watch. The deshi running the class was a relatively young man (died at 26). The comment from the visitor was that he had never seen so much Ki in someone so young (paraphrasing).

You can't control friends and relations but even so - nothing wrong with cheering from the sidelines.

[Chris Li]

David,

I think you are right. Using compeition in order to better both participants is totally not aiki. It's like taking something harmful and trying to redirect it into something useful. That's just not gonna happen in real life™!
In "Aikido Ichiro" Kisshomaru gives a fairly logical presentation of the reasons behind his objections to competitive practice. Interestingly, he admits that there are certain advantages to it, but explains why he feels that the drawbacks justify deciding against it.

Fair enough. Every training method has it's pluses and minuses. You just choose one you like and do the best you can, IMO.

Best,

Chris