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ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 12:13 AM
Aikido and MA fans alike:

Want to know what ki is? I can define exactly what Ki is with one word. Before I do, I would like to hear what some of your interpretations are in a definitional format.

The reason for this post is that most people regard Ki as some sort of mystical/spiritual thing only mastered and ascertainable by some. Some also feel that they walk into a dojo without it and as training progresses they magically appear with it.

While the number of explanations by folks are finite, there sure are alot of myths and misinterpretations. Have at it!

Brad Medling

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 12:20 AM
BTW, some will try to reference a MA book or the net and that is ok but, I prefer you answer in your own words to facilitate your own understanding. Thanks!

Brad

Ian Williams
03-18-2004, 12:37 AM
For me, and I don't wish to disparage other peoples beliefs, "Ki" is a mystical explanation used to describe or explain the biomechanics of the human skeletal and joint/ligament structure.

ie: what some people explain by "Ki" and merdians of energy etc, can also be explained by the way that joints move, and ligaments/muscles pull-resist etc.

I do not believe mysticism is required for Martial Arts, and strongly believe it actually detracts from it.

p00kiethebear
03-18-2004, 01:53 AM
It doesn't matter what you THINK it is. You could think that ki is urine colored kool aid that is magically produced in the appendix which pushes it through the blood in your body and becomes invisible when it leaves the body and was originally devloped by lizard gods in order to make beer taste real good.

What matters (particularly in a martial art that benifits from it) is that you know how to use whatever you think it is. Whether that means staying centered and thinking about extending or sitting down and thinking about muscles moving correctly. Knowing how to use it is what's important. If you believe it's a mystical force coming from the center, fine, it's illogical, just like love can be. If you believe it has to do with the precision of muscular reflexes, fine, that's logical, just like calculous.

From what i've seen in these forums and other places, no one is ever going to agree on what it is and i'm sick of reading people arguing back and forth about it, shut up and keiko.

No offense to anyone on these forums, i've just read enough arguing about this in other places where everyone just seems hell bent on being right.

With that in mind, let's try to keep replies to saying what you think and not saying that we're the absolute authority on ki please? Pretty please? Let's try to make this a constructive discussion. I find that the more i research the topic the more my thoughts seem to slowly evolve to a conclusion.

Sorry, hope i didn't offend anyone or sound like too much of an asshole, had to get that out of me before i did something crazy... like koshi nage on my physics teacher...

*ahem*

/End rant

PeterR
03-18-2004, 02:04 AM
Sorry, hope i didn't offend anyone or sound like too much of an asshole, had to get that out of me before i did something crazy... like koshi nage on my physics teacher...
Not so crazy - never met a Physcis teacher that didn't need a good Koshinage.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 02:42 AM
Ok, guys, it is 2:45 am. I will answer for you tomorrow. Until then, keep the opinions coming while I nap.

Brad

WylMorris
03-18-2004, 03:06 AM
Ki is something like love. There probably is a scientific explaination, but it doesnt need to be found.

Ki is what you need it to be.

either that, or its a huge joke cooked up by the universe and we're it's continuing punchline.

drDalek
03-18-2004, 03:25 AM
I have to agree with p00kie, if you believe ki is some magical mystical force fine, if you believe it is supreme mastery of balance, thats fine too.

You can even alternate, every Monday, Wednesday and Friday its mystical martini-mix that my bile duct produces for the fairies in my stomach who make my muscles move.

On Tuesdays and Thursdays its the unconcious calculus of movement, force, physics and balance.

As long as you dont continually try and hard-sell whatever you believe in to your students or peers you can believe whatever you want.

The important thing is that the phenomenon stays "internal" to you, my magical drunken stomach fairies dont have influence beyond my fingertips and toes.

So to summarise, believe what you will, just dont try and no-touch-knockout someone 2 meters away using your ki, or argue with someone who does not believe the same thing you believe in, if you strain too hard you might stink up the dojo.

ross_l
03-18-2004, 07:35 AM
Thank goodness! Someone's finally going to tell us exactly what Ki is. Something that people haven't quite been able to put their finger on for centuries! I'm waiting for the answer with bated breath. :)

cbrf4zr2
03-18-2004, 07:51 AM
I always thought Ki was something most people can't sing in. :D

Eric Joyce
03-18-2004, 08:49 AM
From what i've seen in these forums and other places, no one is ever going to agree on what it is and i'm sick of reading people arguing back and forth about it, shut up and keiko.

/End rant
Now, now...that isn't vey KI like. ;)

I agree with Ian on this one.

kironin
03-18-2004, 12:32 PM
What matters (particularly in a martial art that benifits from it) is that you know how to use whatever you think it is. Whether that means staying centered and thinking about extending or sitting down and thinking about muscles moving correctly. Knowing how to use it is what's important. If you believe it's a mystical force coming from the center, fine, it's illogical, just like love can be. If you believe it has to do with the precision of muscular reflexes, fine, that's logical, just like calculous.

From what i've seen in these forums and other places, no one is ever going to agree on what it is and i'm sick of reading people arguing back and forth about it, shut up and keiko.
Excellent response !!!

I loved it. spot on.

knowing about it and using it in practice is one thing - a non-verbal experience.

talking about the experience or use in words is always going to differ through how we with our own personalities see and interact with the world.

Craig

Houston Ki Society

George S. Ledyard
03-18-2004, 12:59 PM
Excellent response !!!

I loved it. spot on.

knowing about it and using it in practice is one thing - a non-verbal experience.

talking about the experience or use in words is always going to differ through how we with our own personalities see and interact with the world.

Craig

Houston Ki Society
I've written a fair amount on this in the past so i won't redo it. It's all in the archives I think.

I did want to say that I have never taken the ki thing to be too argumentative (or maybe I just ignored the zealots). Most of the discussions have shown just how difficult a topic this is and just how misunderstood it is. I enjoy reading the better posts because they don't necessarily agree with the way in which I look at this and frankly, I am not yet precise in my own mind about what I think on this topic. I have a practical way in which I think about it which I got from Gleason Sensei and it suffices as a model for technical purposes but I am having some interesting exposure, most recently through the Systema folks, that makes me believe that I will eventually need to expand my ideas on this.

So I don't look at this as an argument with incompatible ideas at war but rather a lot of viewpoints taken from different vantage points (at least the posts from people who have some idea what they are talking about).

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 01:09 PM
Ok My aiki-friends the wait is over:

First, let me say that this has previously been a debate of the ages because you have too many layman in the MA that can't exlain it so they theoreticize about it and thats how these stories spread; kinda like the one where you supposedly can't throw rice at a wedding because it might kill the birds which is a myth. This myth was started by an error in a newspaper column!

A little about me. I am a chemist studying the M.D. Being an aikidoka, I was able to discover exactly what ki was when I was in my biochemistry course. The prossor doesn't know it as ki because he is not in the MA and I previously did not know what he sees it as becuase I was not in biochemistry! I will know leave you with a special gift. I will put this as simple as possible.

Ki is gluconeogenesis. Gluconeogenesis is the reverse metabolic pathway of glycolysis. To understand what gluconeogenesis is, we must frist discuss glycolysis.

Glycolysis converts glucose to glycogen. The brain's fuel source is glucose but the brain cannot store this for a reserve, so when you eat, nutrients are absorbed in the upper intestine. Sonn after is when glucose gets converted to glycogen which is the stored form of fat. (I can list all molecules of these pathways if anybody wants). When the brain/body need energy, gluconeogenesis occurs which is the process to convert glycogen back to glucose to make fuel readily available.

We all know the hormone adrenaline. This is the "fight or flight" hormone. This hormone is responsible for signaling glucose into production when the body needs some very quick energy. This is why the energy experienced is short lived. This hormone adrenaline, signals gluconeogensis to occur rapidly as this burns energy rapidly so that the fuel is readily available for that "quick emergency"or "quick burst of energy".

This is ki. The rapid production of glycogen to glucose for the "fight or flight". We all know ki as quick internal energy summoned for a punch, a throw, etc. Well, gluconeogenesis is what makes it happen and therefore, goluconeogenesis is ki.

Brad Medling

aikidocapecod
03-18-2004, 01:47 PM
I have been studying Aikido for a while. And I have heard many explanations of Ki. But to liken Ki with "Fight or Flight" is a new one on me.

Gleason Sensei has thrown me around his mat many many times. And I am quite certain that not once...not even for a tiny minuscule moment did he feel "Fight or Flight" .

But I can tell you from first hand experience, his key was definately flowing.

aikidocapecod
03-18-2004, 01:48 PM
Unless of course Brad, you were just teasing us all

aikidocapecod
03-18-2004, 01:52 PM
OK OK OK.....ya.....my spell checked brain typed key instead of Ki......

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 02:04 PM
I could throw you around flowingly all day as well. I have done many aikidoka that way thats just because I let the principles of aikido work for me. Ki is often described as the feits of strength/energy to do seemingly impossible things. I hardly think it is impossible to throw you around all afternoon! You have heard of someone lifting up the side of a car because someone was trapped underneath, etc, etc. This is real ki. Taking you down with aikido techniques is more tammed and controlled. When karate people break boards (which I think is silly), this is ki. If I used the true nature of ki on you, you would have brokem ligaments as result. In class, you are just letting your energy flow smoothly and expending it. Like I said, I don't think you can let ki loose on someone in practice because it would be too brutal.

I cannot justify everyone's ignorance on the matter. I wrote what many of you may not understand because you don't have the intellect or should I say the proper study to understand such things. Look beyond yourself. Print off this article and go talk to a qualified, acredited Ph.D biochem professor and ask him to spend more time explaining this concept to you because I don't have the time. I was reluctant to share this but I thought some of you would do a personal study on this and discover it for yourself.

Brad

aikidocapecod
03-18-2004, 02:25 PM
Perhaps some of us may not have the mental capacity to understand something that you obviously seem to know better than most. Maybe we are challenged intellectually. Maybe we are just (to use your term ) ignorant.

Speaking for myself, I am blessedly ignorant of what physiological and chemical processes are taking place that may give me a moment or two of Ki power.

But...to say that one could throw another around all afternoon is perhaps a bit of a boast. If one attempts to throw another around all afternoon without the use of Ki, then that Nage will surely be exhausted and dripping with sweat. When I see Saotome Sensei or Ikeda Sensei or Gleason Sensei intruct for a couple hours they are using Ki.

Uke know better than to falsely attack any of those three Sensei. And Sensei are not using a lot of muscle to "throw around all afternoon"

Their Ki is flowing....trust me...and also trust me when I say they are not feeling "fight or flight".....

So, please accept my disagreement with the definition of Ki you provided.....

Though I cannot give a good correct definition of Ki, I have difficulty accepting yours...

Unless of course you are still teasing those of us who are ignorant...

Chris Birke
03-18-2004, 02:27 PM
That's the funniest shit I've heard in a long time. I'll bite.

The theory that ki is caused by a single molecular process is akin to saying love is the sole result of oxytocin. It's a myopic argument that desperately falls short of embracing the whole issue.

Ki is absolutely not the result of gluconeogenesis.

Since you asked;

I would say Ki is about dissolving the difference between the external world and the world within you. In fact, it may be about ending all duality.

You don't even have to be throwing someone for it to occur!

I'm rather sure there's at least one person out there who would tend to agree with me.

How does gluconeogenesis fit in here?

aikidocapecod
03-18-2004, 02:32 PM
gluconeogenesis

OK...let us all make a solemn pact.....no more words with 15 letters in this forum!!!

And Chris...I really am very disappointed in you.....(he said tongue in cheek) But I am sure that there is a 15 letter word you could have used instead of S__T!!!!!!!!

cbrf4zr2
03-18-2004, 02:34 PM
Interesting theory Brad. I'm more likely to buy into Ki being something physiological than it is to being metaphysical. Then again, it might be a mind over matter issue as well.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 02:35 PM
Yes Larry I aggree, you can expend your ki just like eating a cup cake. You can cram the whole thing in or take a little bite at a time. With ki, you can use it sparringly to flow and last as along as possible or in casses of extremity, you can burn it for your emergency.

I will make one more point and then the lesson will be yours. Ki is what the chinese refer to as chi, an internal living force. That force is fueled by gluconeogenesis. When Bruce lee would tense up and his muscular striations would appear, he was harnessing his ki. Do you think he could keep that posture for very long? No. In my explanation of ki, I was trying to focus on the extreme uses of it. Throwing someone around all day is relative to the persons endurance and ki if you will but I am trying to stay clear of discussing that because it is easier to define ki to someone when it is obvious they are using it. Make sense?

To clarify, ignorance means "not knowing". I did not mean to be offensive in using that word. Many of you are obviously intelligent. I am ignorant of alot of things as well so, lets stick to the issue and not use this for a distraction.
Brad

Jason Mudd
03-18-2004, 02:39 PM
I cannot justify everyone's ignorance on the matter. I wrote what many of you may not understand because you don't have the intellect or should I say the proper study to understand such things. Look beyond yourself. Print off this article and go talk to a qualified, acredited Ph.D biochem professor and ask him to spend more time explaining this concept to you because I don't have the time. I was reluctant to share this but I thought some of you would do a personal study on this and discover it for yourself.
Uh... thanks?

ross_l
03-18-2004, 02:48 PM
I've got a good 16 letter word:

Superciliousness.

Erik
03-18-2004, 02:55 PM
So creatine is, or is not, ki?

shihonage
03-18-2004, 02:56 PM
Threads like these are like watching a car wreck unfold.

giriasis
03-18-2004, 03:07 PM
How about:

Midiclorians...

:freaky:

Beholder
03-18-2004, 03:12 PM
If you'll excuse me reposting this link, I'm tempted to wonder if this is where Brad got his idea from:

http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/aikido_ki.html

Aigluconeogenesisdo. Yup, works for me.

Erik
03-18-2004, 03:20 PM
http://www.fudebakudo.com/en/aikido_ki.html
Which begs the question, is beer ki, or is it not ki?

Beholder
03-18-2004, 03:36 PM
Which begs the question, is beer ki, or is it not ki?
Well Erik, I suspect your experience might be similar to mine: many of the people I have trained with have been preoccupied with that very question. I have, whenever possible, tried to assist them with the investigation. For the benefit of everyone who does aikido, you understand.

No conclusions yet... practice practice practice...

kironin
03-18-2004, 04:05 PM
So I don't look at this as an argument with incompatible ideas at war but rather a lot of viewpoints taken from different vantage points (at least the posts from people who have some idea what they are talking about).
Granted. good points.

I have really enjoyed the Systema classes I have taken because in many ways I have found it very compatible with what I have been taught in the Ki Society.

The free form sparring of Systema and slow-mo practice is a nice ki-ful addition

to my practice for me. And of course, I find the connections of no-touch throws interesting as well.

maybe sometime we will get to do the knife sparring exercises together like in Vegas again.

best,

Craig

Houston Ki Society

Roy Dean
03-18-2004, 04:28 PM
Thought I would run Mr. Medling's view of ki past my training partner, a board certified toxicologist. His response?

-------------------------------------

There are three metabolic pathways that provide the energy for all human endeavors; the phos­phagen pathway, the glycolytic pathway, and the oxidative pathway. The phosphagen pathway largely contributes to the highest-powered activities that typically last less than 10 seconds or so. The glycolytic pathway largely contributes to moderate-powered activities, those that last up to several minutes. The oxidative pathway, largely contributes to low-powered activities, those that last in excess of several minutes. 

To lump what you are calling “ki” into one of these pathways is just silly. That is, the phenomena associated with “ki” are likely to be rooted within a combination of these three pathways (certainly at least two of them) that depend mainly on the situation where the conjuring of “ki” will ensue. 

 

By the way...  the name adrenaline is antiquated.  Now a days, we bona fide science folk call it epinephrine, a wonderfully complex sympathomimetic hormone of delight.



-----------------------------------

Congratulations to Mr. Medling for the attempt at linking "ki" with an energy pathway in the body. Never before in the history of science had this been attempted. We, as forum members, should be honored that his noble, yet failed experiment was offered here, for all to see, with the cocksure arrogance that could only come from a young Aikidoka who had "figured it all out."

Mr. Medling, we salute you!!!

Janet Rosen
03-18-2004, 04:51 PM
apropos of the difficulties inherent in two different conceptions of life, I just read and HIGHLY recommend (to anybody regardless of where they stand on the ki issue...) a book called "The Expressiveness of the Body and the Divergence of Greek and Chinese Medicine" by Shigehisa Kuriyama. It won a medal for Medical History writing a couple of yrs ago, and is a very readable, non-dense comparison of historical medicine tracing things to very different concepts (both across cultures and within cultures across time) of what a body is and what it means to be a person.

kironin
03-18-2004, 05:18 PM
I cannot justify everyone's ignorance on the matter. I wrote what many of you may not understand because you don't have the intellect or should I say the proper study to understand such things. Look beyond yourself. Print off this article and go talk to a qualified, acredited Ph.D biochem professor and ask him to spend more time explaining this concept to you because I don't have the time. I was reluctant to share this but I thought some of you would do a personal study on this and discover it for yourself.

Brad
Hi Brad,

interesting coincindence...

It just so happens that along with advanced degrees in biochemistry, my doctoral degree from Brandeis University in Boston, MA involved the study of glycolysis (specfically nonlinear enzyme kinetics and control points in this pathway). Some of this work was published on invitation in a chapter in the reference series "Methods in Enzymology". So it might be said that I know a fair bit about these pathways.

in addition, Tohei Sensei has sought fit to declare me a Ki lecturer and award me an advanced rank in Ki development.

So just maybe, just possibly, I have an idea or two about what Ki is.

that said, and only said, because you seem to be taking the road that if we don't agree it must be because we don't have the intellect or expertise to appreciate what you said.

So....

I hope you are simply joking or persih the thought simply trolling, because otherwise,

if you really believe any of this makes any sense, it is a very sad day in higher education. Your concept of ki as gluconeogensis is just about the silliest thing I have heard in a while and your arguement to back it up is what I would call hand waving (no substance, no facts, no experiemental results, etc.).

to be fair, you can throw it out there as a hypothesis. Just don't say people don't understand and should run to an expert when they disagree with you.

well the first problem of many is defining ki as only "We all know ki as quick internal energy summoned for a punch, a throw, etc." We do ????

How about when I am simply standing there extending my arm for five

minutes ?

you could talk about ki in terms that would fit a discussion of increasing the recruitment of muscle fibers. Talk about the role of postural alignment, etc. with an expert in biomechanics.

you could talk about situations of ki in which the ideas refer to mental processes and then discussions with psychologists would be very fruitful. It could be even very appropriate to say that ki is mind, and go about discussing how the mind operates with neuroscientists.

etc.

since Ki has been a meta-physical term for a long time, trying to say it is one limited example of a burst of energy and then saying aha! it must then be gluconeogenesis, does not solve anything because ki was never thought of in any tradition that I am aware of by such a limited idea.

Craig

HKS

kironin
03-18-2004, 05:26 PM
Which begs the question, is beer ki, or is it not ki?
No, of course not.

Single Malt is ki.

Craig

Dustin R Bunch
03-18-2004, 05:48 PM
I have not posted much but this caught my attention. I have not been training very long in Aikido, but I have been training in Science for 6 years and specifically in biochemistry for 3 of those years. I have been working with the ideas of how biochemistry and my spirituality combine to come to a conclusion. The only way this can be accomplished is not to believe everything from both sides. Otherwise a person ends up with two concepts of reality. This is difficult for the a persons mind to understand without extensive thought.

So for Mr. Medling to come to this conclusion is valid, it is his concept of the world and he has a right to that no matter what others think. However, I can also choose to disagree and come up with my idea of reality. I do not agree with Mr. Medling, but I also do not have a good definition of Ki. The best I have come up with is Ki is energy. Everything has energy because there is always movement of electrons around the nucleus of an atom. Some people can intuitively tap into this energy others need practice on the mat to tap this energy. I guess the main idea is to get on the mat and practice. If your intellectual understanding of Ki manifest on the mat, your sensei will notice and help you progress.

Yours in Aikido,

Dustin Bunch

:ai: :ki:

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 06:07 PM
So creatine is, or is not, ki?
I will regard this as a serious question. Creatine is a substance dervived from meat. Bodybuilders use it because it helps to retain more water by volume in skeletal muscle cells.

Gluconeogenesis is a pathway/process that involves glucose. Maybe I should give all the complete chemical mechanism for the reaction. Creatine is not the main source for this metabolic pathway.

In fact, for those on a carnivourous (meat eating) diet, creatine will not work and none of the bodybuilding effect can be noticed because the person already has a substantial level in their body.

Hope answers your question.

Brad

Janet Rosen
03-18-2004, 06:15 PM
Craig, I don't have the scientific creds, but thank you for everything you said in your posting.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 06:21 PM
Hi Brad,

interesting coincindence...

It just so happens that along with advanced degrees in biochemistry, my doctoral degree from Brandeis University in Boston, MA involved the study of glycolysis (specfically nonlinear enzyme kinetics and control points in this pathway). Some of this work was published on invitation in a chapter in the reference series "Methods in Enzymology". So it might be said that I know a fair bit about these pathways.

in addition, Tohei Sensei has sought fit to declare me a Ki lecturer and award me an advanced rank in Ki development.

So just maybe, just possibly, I have an idea or two about what Ki is.

that said, and only said, because you seem to be taking the road that if we don't agree it must be because we don't have the intellect or expertise to appreciate what you said.

So....

I hope you are simply joking or persih the thought simply trolling, because otherwise,

if you really believe any of this makes any sense, it is a very sad day in higher education. Your concept of ki as gluconeogensis is just about the silliest thing I have heard in a while and your arguement to back it up is what I would call hand waving (no substance, no facts, no experiemental results, etc.).

to be fair, you can throw it out there as a hypothesis. Just don't say people don't understand and should run to an expert when they disagree with you.

well the first problem of many is defining ki as only "We all know ki as quick internal energy summoned for a punch, a throw, etc." We do ????

How about when I am simply standing there extending my arm for five

minutes ?

you could talk about ki in terms that would fit a discussion of increasing the recruitment of muscle fibers. Talk about the role of postural alignment, etc. with an expert in biomechanics.

you could talk about situations of ki in which the ideas refer to mental processes and then discussions with psychologists would be very fruitful. It could be even very appropriate to say that ki is mind, and go about discussing how the mind operates with neuroscientists.

etc.

since Ki has been a meta-physical term for a long time, trying to say it is one limited example of a burst of energy and then saying aha! it must then be gluconeogenesis, does not solve anything because ki was never thought of in any tradition that I am aware of by such a limited idea.

Craig

HKS
Craig:

I actually question your "higher education" because a literate person could have read in one of my posts the controlled factor I was focussing on which does not involve all possible scenarios.

Yes, scientific evidence has been presented and you don't need to be in an doctoral program to learn of it. Pick up a good old copy of voet & voet biochem book for undergrads. A free library card will grant you the knowledge.

Stick you arm out for five minuites? What does that prove? At the end of the five minuites? Why not 15 mins? At the end of that you probably couldn't lift a wet noodle. My focus is on concepts such as the 2" punch, etc.

I don;t know how many times I have to remind people of what my focus is. Again, I am not concerned with power across time. I am concerned with instantaneous power,this aspect of ki. Ki has different aspects and Craig, if you cannot understand the particular aspect I am conveying, you should be made to perform 2000 titrations for punishemnt, followed by centrifugation so that I don't have to.

Brad

Ian Williams
03-18-2004, 06:22 PM
Ki is what you need it to be.
I see

:confused:

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 06:30 PM
I have not posted much but this caught my attention. I have not been training very long in Aikido, but I have been training in Science for 6 years and specifically in biochemistry for 3 of those years. I have been working with the ideas of how biochemistry and my spirituality combine to come to a conclusion. The only way this can be accomplished is not to believe everything from both sides. Otherwise a person ends up with two concepts of reality. This is difficult for the a persons mind to understand without extensive thought.

So for Mr. Medling to come to this conclusion is valid, it is his concept of the world and he has a right to that no matter what others think. However, I can also choose to disagree and come up with my idea of reality. I do not agree with Mr. Medling, but I also do not have a good definition of Ki. The best I have come up with is Ki is energy. Everything has energy because there is always movement of electrons around the nucleus of an atom. Some people can intuitively tap into this energy others need practice on the mat to tap this energy. I guess the main idea is to get on the mat and practice. If your intellectual understanding of Ki manifest on the mat, your sensei will notice and help you progress.

Yours in Aikido,

Dustin Bunch

:ai: :ki:
Dustin:

Very good. You are starting out with an open mind. Everythng in the body requires energy as you said. Even electrons have the orbital spins n to the trillon power when the bump and collide into each other.

The type of ki required for an explosive burst of energy is similar to that when someone jumps out and scares you. You can feel the rush internally and if you were to direct this internal power outward, this is ki. As I said earlier, the hormone adrenaline is secreted activating the pathway of this topic thus giving you that quick burst of energy.

The thing is, you don't have to have someone to jump out and scare you to activate this power. That is the secret; learning to tap into this naturally and not by a response to something else. Good reply

Brad

Janet Rosen
03-18-2004, 06:36 PM
"I don;t know how many times I have to remind people of what my focus is"

Brad, the pattern across various forum threads seems to be that you select a topic and ask people to discuss it from on high, as if you were running an academy, then deign to speak the Truth. Do you not realize that you have wandered into a community of disparate folks with their own particular talents, education, styles, etc, that we are not here for your sole amusement or to be edified by you? That you can suggest a topic but have no control over where folks want to go with it?

You probably do not intend to come across as a self-selected know it all, but that is the tone you consistently take, and its quite offputting.

This will be the one and only time I will comment; I will be declining to participate in your threads or in threads you are participating on.

Best of luck.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 06:41 PM
Again, I will leave this to the rest of you. I have stated what I have found. A simple study of enzyme kinetics and reactions rates might prove to be useful to some of you.

The professor I learned all this from got his Ph.D from the university of florida I believe and has been reseraching for 27 years. So, I have spent ample time with him for this to be justified whereas this thread will simply not do it. I will take his understanding over some of yours, no offense. To understand, I need about 3 weeks of everyones time to cover all possibilities and conclusions. Have fun!

Brad

Beholder
03-18-2004, 06:46 PM
Dustin:

Very good. You are starting out with an open mind. .... Good reply

Brad
Hi Brad

I was just wondering if the teachers you name in your profile had replaced their use of the mysterious word ki with your more informed word gluconeogenesis since you explained it to them? They are open minded, right?

Yours

Dave

PS you can ignore me, we're not really supposed to feed the trolls

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 06:54 PM
Janet:

Great! Some people have childish replies to mock that which they don't understand. If you don't know, be sincere and don't try to act otherwise. I am simply quoting what I have found through reserach. There is no way I will post all of that because of the length and the keypads don't have all the symbols I need.

I am sorry that my posts are not sugar coated enough for you but I try to squeeze these replies in between my prior obligations. Now if you don't appreciate it, ignore it.

To the rest, this is an area I am confortable with and that is why I offer strong opinions. This is afteral a forum so have fun. I do enjoy the humor. Personally, I could care less is Janet feels that ki comes from urethral secrestions projected by weak muscles in the interstitial tissue of the bladder in which case injections of botox in the interstitial space of the bladder through the vaginal canal will control the need for frequent urination!!!

See, I have a sense of humor also (by the way, all that is true; it is a new techniique by ureology surgeons).

Brad

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 06:57 PM
Hi Dave

No they have not. I don't even talk about this with them because it is difficult to grasp and some things are better left unsaid. I still call it ki but now I understand some of where it is derived from and thought some of you might relate>??? obviously not.

Brad

Ian Williams
03-18-2004, 06:58 PM
Uke know better than to falsely attack any of those three Sensei. And Sensei are not using a lot of muscle to "throw around all afternoon"
Mechanical Advantage means not having to use excessive muscle power. If your using proper technique then why should you be as tired as someone who is relying on brute force and strength?

I can push a wheelbarrow around all day full of rocks but if I had to lift them manually, I'd be knackered in an hour.

I do not agree with the poster before that Ki is soley an andrenal response, although I do believe that there is some truth in it.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 07:02 PM
Janet, I don't know it all and never claim to. It is hard tell one's demeanor on the computer screen, agree? I am acutally a nice person (if you can believe that) that goes out of my way to help just about anyone.

I know this topic so well because I had to know it intimately for reserach and a comprehensive exam so, I was drilled and drilled on it until I was sick! Some profs focusing certain topics and while other profs focus on others. This was one topic mine focused on.

Tell you what, just for you, I will not post anymore on this thread so it can go away if this will make you happy? Afterall, this was never for my benefit! Alsong as you know what ki is to you and can use it, who cares anyway, right???

shihonage
03-18-2004, 07:06 PM
This is afteral a forum so have fun. I do enjoy the humor. Personally, I could care less is Janet feels that ki comes from urethral secrestions projected by weak muscles in the interstitial tissue of the bladder in which case injections of botox in the interstitial space of the bladder through the vaginal canal will control the need for frequent urination!!!

See, I have a sense of humor also
Your desire to learn the human sense of humor is quite endearing, Data, but I do think you could benefit from more rehearsals before exposing it to the general public.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 07:13 PM
Your desire to learn the human sense of humor is quite endearing, Data, but I do think you could benefit from more rehearsals before exposing it to the general public.
Perhaps so, perhaps so! hehehe.

Maybe I should sit back and only reply to other peoples post in the same vein as they have mine!

Brad

George S. Ledyard
03-18-2004, 07:15 PM
Brad,

You have only been contributing on these threads for a few days but you are digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole. Too much more and you are going to have trouble getting on the mat at any seminar you might care to attend.

It's one thing for a fellow who has just enough experience in the martial arts to be dangerous to himself to show up on the ineternet and act like he knows more than he does. But it starts to get really iffy when you start to try to enhance yourself by either denegrating other people or trying to raise yourself up by comparing your abilities to those of folks who have trained ten times longer than you have, with teachers who are some of the very best in the world. You are maybe qualified to fold Glaeson Sensei's hakama...

Your attempt to "out technical" the senior Aikido folks falls flat with this forum because there are plenty of folks who hang around these forums who are just as senior to you in the realm of science as the aikido folks are to you in Aikido experience.

I am offering this as a friendly warning, not because of any physical threat to you, but because you are systematically destroying what little credibility that you started with. You REALLY don't want to be in that place in the Aikido community. if you inetend to train long.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 07:40 PM
..

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 07:47 PM
Gleason-sensei? who is that? Know who Yasuo Kobayashi-shihan is? Is this about who has trained under whom?? Do you know how old I am?

If you feel someone is trying to "out technical" you, or whatever you called it, then perhaps you have some sort of insecurity problem? No one is trying to out do someone else on my behalf but it seems to be the case on your behalf.

I have seen you pic and website. George I gotta tell ya, you wouldn't be running your mouth like that in person with me. So keep your hakama foldin' jokes to yourself before I have to adress your smart-witted demeanor.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 08:00 PM
This is it, I thought this site might be more open minded. I will not acknowledge any more comments as this site is a complete waste of time. George, be careful how you choose to monitor people on this site. Just because yo look like someone's grandfather, doesn't mean you have the right to act like it. I should hope you are not like this in a dojo with others. If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash.

Goodbye to all.

Michael Mules
03-18-2004, 08:00 PM
Do you know how old I am?
No. We don't. How old are you? And since it is pertinent to the topic, what are your qualifications/training in the fields you are representing?

Not that it matters too much of course. What does matter is how you comport yourself in public and how accurate and in-context your information is.

This is not an attack. It is a request for information based on questions and statements you have raised. I look forward to your reply :)

Michael Mules
03-18-2004, 08:01 PM
Damn. Missed him by this much.

PeterR
03-18-2004, 08:06 PM
Against my better judgement.

Craig and I have had this debate many times - our differences on Ki I think are due to global versus specific outlooks.

What Ki society calls Ki, Shodokan people tend to break down into various powers with Ido Ryoku (power of movement) being the main one. Also contributing are breath power (timing), power of focus, and the more mystical Ki. This latter Ki just is (the very definition of mystical) and I think it is easier to understand it, in this context, as a fudge factor to explain the synergistic effect of all the powers.

The mystical Ki is believed by many to be found in all things, including rocks and trees. Neither of which have a gluconeogenic pathway - last I checked. In fact Ki seems to be related to size - big trees and even bigger rocks. My own personal theory is that the mystical Ki equals gravitation :D.

Further argument against the gluconeogenic pathway as Ki has already been given. Like Craig I've got Biochem degrees bursting out all over not to mention 25 years of study and research. Like Craig some of that is directly related to the Gluconeogenic pathway. I do consider Craig more expert though and would defer to him even if we did disagree - which we don't.

Craig - just (like while I was writting this response) got a paper accepted in JMB. Letter from R. Huber no less. Tonight - I party.

ikkitosennomusha
03-18-2004, 08:22 PM
ok This is really it, but before I got I wanted to respond to Michael and Peter.

Peter:

I agree with you %100. I never said that you can't call ki what you wish b ecasue I feel everyones definition is correct! I feel that same way as you and I also call it ki. This post was just to try to get to a deeoer understanding which I had hoped would spark some of your great comments. Why people think I introduced this for any other reason is beyond me. I read a post discussing CTS and it sounded techn ical so I thought the crows could handle my post.

Michael:

I began training aikido at the age of 15. I am now 30. Yes 15 years is more than some but less than others. I have studied various styles of aikido. 2 of them I have a black belt, one I am shodan, the other sandan. My first organizational experience, I only got to 2nd kyu. I took that 2nd kyu, joined another and became shodan again. Mainly because I have hoped around so much, I was unable to get to highly ranked because everywhere I went, I got demoted until I learned their system. I was currently working on testing again but know, I have become a ronin beecause I am not satisfied with any one particular dojo. I am trying to reach a certain place in my training and I have to search more before I find the place to take me there. That is variious ranks I have which don't mean squat! I have been going to seminars and I find many black belt that didn't know crap from tar and some who did. You know how it is......I am currently teaching which is great but I feel that I have more personal development to do. Recognizing this, I am reparing for a unique journey soon...

Aidos.....

aikidocapecod
03-18-2004, 09:10 PM
well...I am certainly done with this thread....

Aikido has taught me the good sense to know when to turn the other cheek and walk away...

walking...........

shihonage
03-18-2004, 09:29 PM
George, be careful how you choose to monitor people on this site. Just because yo look like someone's grandfather, doesn't mean you have the right to act like it. I should hope you are not like this in a dojo with others. If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash.
Mr. Ledyard is not just some hoodlum who decided to step forward and insult you for no reason.
From his posts on this forum I've observed that he doesn't exactly have a habit of talking to people this way, with you being an obvious exception.

The general tone of his statement has summed up what was on the minds of many people who are reading this thread.

I don't know or care about who's qualified to fold who's hakama, and I'm certainly not qualified to pass judgement on that, and I have a loooooong way to go before reaching your rank, but that doesn't stop me from seeing things and passing a simple, private human judgement based solely on common sense and self-preservation - if by a chance of fate I will meet a "Brad Medling" on the mat, I'm going to be giving slow, insincere and very controlled attacks, and I will provide absolutely no useful resistance, not even because I dislike the said "Brad Medling" but because I don't think he can control himself, and thus I cannot trust my physical well-being to him by giving him sincere attacks.
I will at least START training with that attitude, purely out of self-preservation, and see if my cautions were warranted.

I _think_ that is also the part of the point that Mr. Ledyard was making in regards to you having "trouble on the mat".

Mel Barker
03-18-2004, 10:19 PM
I mostly lurk on Aikido forums, so I get to know the regulars. Mr. Ledyard's posts always catch my eye due to his willingness to offer steady non-judgmental, informed insights. He is truly a gentleman and I hope to meet him on the mat someday (or perhaps the pub).

His willingness to offer our brash newcomer some sorely needed advice was certainly more than I was willing to endeavor as I tend to ignore these types.

Unfortunately his endeavors have been for naught.

Hopefully, like many before him the new comer will be true to his word and find someplace else to troll.

Mel

L. Camejo
03-18-2004, 11:17 PM
Threads like these are like watching a car wreck unfold.
I just got through reading this entire thread. Came in a bit late (I generally avoid "ki" threads:)). I think Aleksey hit the nail on the head LONG before stuff got nasty. Got some Bruce Baker flashbacks actually :)

Was about to ask Brad if he equated gluconeogenics with ki and chi as the chinese call it, then how does this conversion of energy explain something like "chi healing" which has not much to do with muscles and has been detected as energy vibration by scientific equipment to some extent in China.

But after he lost his cool so easily when challenged I guess it's better if he find a good Sensei and get in some quality mat training. It might improve his social aiki. May be a good idea to trade in those dan grades in the process.

Just my humble opinion. BTW, ki is "the force" - now if we can only find Yoda we can put this whole thing to rest.:)

L.C.:ai::ki:

JiuJitsuka87
03-18-2004, 11:44 PM
"fight-or-flight" aka adrenaline is very non-beneficial to martial arts in most regards.

I could be wrong. But from my experience I know that in jiu-jitsu tournaments, especially in beginner's division, everyone gets a huge adrenaline dump. What do they do? THEY TENSE UP. What happens to their technique? It goes out the window.

My second tournament, I was much more relaxed, no huge adrenaline dump, I just worked my technique, and ended up placing 2nd. The loss in the finals match was due to my own technical errors which I must work on in training.

I don't know much about ki or aikido. But I assume from my reading and study that KI is central to aikido and the practice there-of. The adrenaline dump you speak of is very non-beneficial to using martial arts skills. Therefore, how can you associate it with Ki?

I think, I could be wrong, again, I am an outsider on this, but the process that Brad spoke of has to do with metabolising energy for desperate circumstances. I thought KI was kinda bigger than that. But hey, I could be wrong.

Perhaps the adrenaline dump is one face of KI. The harsh, angry, uncontrolled, chaotic side. Perhaps the flowing techniques encompassing balance and leverage and a calm, empty mind are the other side of KI.

Nothing has to be one extreme or another. As a grappler I know this. My art depends upon balance, not extremes. There are times when one must be hard, and others when one must be soft.

I think he may have one aspect of KI scientifically explained. But what about the other thousand aspects of KI?

The quickest way to kill a martial art or anything for that matter, is to stop learning and studying it. To assume you understand KI is only going to hurt your training.

I have done many double-leg takedowns. But there are still principles and set-ups and minor variations in techniques I have no grasp of. Until I am an olympian like John Smith who can use a single takedown and wreck my opponents with it, I have no right to claim I understand anything.

Bram Stoker was a genius for publishing Dracula. The book is about the fallacy of total faith in science. Brad, I commend you for trying to apply scientific reasoning to your understanding of the martial arts. But I beseech you, don't shut your mind there. Keep striving to learn, and never claim to have an absolute unless you are willing to prove it.

How do you prove it? Line up Aikido black belts and beat them with your superior understanding with KI. Then I'll believe you.

Think it's not possible?

Rickson Gracie does it when preparing for his fights. He takes black belts and beats them like ragdolls. He has a right to say he understands Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Until you do that, or until I do that, we have no right to claim understanding. Well, we might have the right, but we only deceive ourselves.

Forgive me for this lengthy post, I wish I was better at writing these things.

Ian Williams
03-18-2004, 11:48 PM
which has not much to do with muscles and has been detected as energy vibration by scientific equipment to some extent in China.
there has never been any scientific credible evidence of "chi/ki" to the best of my knowledge.

p00kiethebear
03-19-2004, 12:10 AM
<quote>You probably do not intend to come across as a self-selected know it all, but that is the tone you consistently take, and its quite offputting.</quote>

Not trying to offend... But I can't agree more.

Erik
03-19-2004, 12:15 AM
Go away for a couple of hours and BOOM! Anyways, I always find it interesting what threads generate the most posts and the type of personality it takes to generate them. And, Craig and I aren't even duking it out in a thread with the word ki in it. :)

By the way, Brad if you are still there, note how I phrased the question. I was not asking what creatine was, rather, I asked if it was ki, or not.

ryujin
03-19-2004, 02:17 AM
Damn, and here I thought ki was that object I unlock or lock doors with. :D

L. Camejo
03-19-2004, 06:20 AM
there has never been any scientific credible evidence of "chi/ki" to the best of my knowledge.
Granted, and I have no physical evidence to prove or disprove either. This was from a chinese documentary on qigong and its different aspects, one of which was qi healing. They used some sort of recording device and recorded a constant pulse emanating from qigong healer's hands at a frequency of between 8 to 14 hertz from what I remember.

Like I said in before, I tend to avoid ki threads:). It's almost as bad as talking about Religion, everyone has a theory but not many can prove their theories.

If we are fortunate enough to have some insight into the matter this is good, I don't think there is any knowledge that is not power.

Just my few cents.

L.C.:ai::ki:

jamesallen
03-19-2004, 09:17 AM
... ki is urine colored kool aid that is magically produced in the appendix which pushes it through the blood in your body and becomes invisible when it leaves the body and was originally devloped by lizard gods in order to make beer taste real good.
Dagnabbit! That's what I was going to say!

Ron Tisdale
03-19-2004, 10:26 AM
Sorry, but what a waste of space.

Brad, listen to George, Craig, Peter. They are really trying to help.

Ron

jgrowney
03-19-2004, 10:57 AM
Brad,

It's nice to see that you have found a new way to personally identify with your idea of what Ki is. That's a real breakthrough for you. Congratulations.

Keep this in mind however. For you to progress, your definition of Ki will need to change over time... just like your understanding of everything else in aikido.

Even George Ledyard admits that his definition is really a work in progress, and that for a deeper understanding to be attained, he will need to empty some of his cup.

All I'm suggesting is that you preface your comments with something like "my current understanding is that...."

If you continue to progress with aikido, I guarantee you that 5 years from now you will have a different opinion on the issue, no matter what you think today. I don't mean an opposing opinion, but different than exactly what you described here.

Sincerely,

Jim

BLangille
03-19-2004, 11:07 AM
Interesting thread. I must say that I disagree with Brad's definition of ki, but hey, me not to bright.

Jason Mudd
03-19-2004, 12:47 PM
Here's my beginner's reply... which you can completely dismiss if you'd like...

At my current stage, I see ki as a visualization tool to aid in bringing the mind, intention, and the body together.

That being said, I don't want to attach to that definition (even if it is fairly "weak"). I have a feeling that as soon as it becomes a concrete idea in my mind I've shackled myself.

We all come from different backgrounds, and we make sense of our world by fitting it into the structure of our past experiences and knowledge.

However, maybe it's not such a wonderful idea to force everything into our rigid construct.

There may come a time when you must overcome yourself to move forward, and this attachment may be the anchor holding you back.

Or, I'm wrong about everything. Oh well.

kironin
03-19-2004, 02:02 PM
Against my better judgement.

Craig - just (like while I was writting this response) got a paper accepted in JMB. Letter from R. Huber no less. Tonight - I party.
Peter,

Congratulations!

Well, today after reading more posts here, I realize now that I had a moment of bad judgement and I fed a troll. Well, live and learn.

as for our disagreements, it's probably really a matter of terminology (or I am just softening as I age). Tohei Sensei talks about Universal Ki which is what you are talking about when you say the mystical ki found in all things and then he also talks about the particular ki, which seems to be all the other things you mentioned and which I tend to chalk under the heading of getting your mind and body coordinated (aka Tempu Nakamura's Japanese yoga training methods adapted by Tohei Sensei). In fact my operating definition for particular ki really is, ki is mind. So in classes I talk more about the mind, as expressed in posture, breathing, focus, attention, etc. It's been an evolving process for me of how to teach such stuff. My senior student is a hypnotherapist so it's made for some interesting discussions with him and Kashiwaya Sensei.

party on, dude.

Craig

Dennis Hooker
03-19-2004, 02:18 PM
Brad, I have been taught that everything has Ki. Good ki, Bad ki, Sick ki, Healthy ki, Strong ki, Weak ki. Rocks and trees, dirt and sunshine have ki. A person can develop and focus that energy in various ways. They can make it stronger. What you describe may be a natural chemical reaction of the body that creates energy in some fashion, so it to is ki. However, you identified only one aspect of a common theme, energy. If you let a tree rot naturally in the forest or burn it quickly it will release the same amount of energy or Ki.

A side question. Do you have any idea how this interacts with acetylcholine. I have Myasthenia Gravis and have, over the last three and a half decades, had to develop and manage my personal "ki" with discretion lest it abandoned me quickly, like that burning tree. Aikido has been a life saver.

The normal neuromuscular junction releases acetylcholine (ACh) from the motor nerve terminal in discrete packages (quanta). The ACh quanta diffuse across the synaptic cleft and bind to receptors on the folded muscle end-plate membrane. Stimulation of the motor nerve releases many ACh quanta that depolarize the muscle end-plate region and then the muscle membrane causing muscle contraction. In acquired myasthenia gravis, the post-synaptic muscle membrane is distorted and simplified, having lost its normal folded shape. The concentration of ACh receptors on the muscle end-plate membrane is reduced, and antibodies are attached to the membrane. ACh is released normally, but its effect on the post-synaptic membrane is reduced. The post-junctional membrane is less sensitive to applied ACh, and the probability that any nerve impulse will cause a muscle action potential is reduced

Dennis Hooker

www.shindai.com

Dennis Hooker
03-19-2004, 02:37 PM
Hell, I should have read every thing before I posted that last post.

John Boswell
03-19-2004, 02:46 PM
Hello Sensei!

Yeah... this is a thread gone wild, but if it makes you feel better, I got a lot out of your post. I've read that you have Myasthenia Gravis and never fully understood it. I have a little bit better grasp of it now thanks to this post, so it was worthwhile! Thanks!

Best wishes,

John B.

Ron Tisdale
03-19-2004, 03:12 PM
In fact my operating definition for particular ki really is, ki is mind.
Just currious; the chinese speak of the mind leading or directing the qi...so if ki is mind, are you saying that the mind leads the mind?

Ron

Dennis Hooker
03-19-2004, 03:28 PM
Ron, only if you listen to the voices.

QUOTE="Ron Tisdale"]Just currious; the chinese speak of the mind leading or directing the qi...so if ki is mind, are you saying that the mind leads the mind?

Ron[/QUOTE]

Ron Tisdale
03-19-2004, 03:30 PM
:)

aikidocapecod
03-19-2004, 03:31 PM
Sensei,

It is always a pleasure to read something you write and listen to you speak. I had that pleasure last year at Saotome Sensei's Cherry Blossom dinner.

Looking forward to learning more from you..thanks

Hagen Seibert
03-19-2004, 04:07 PM
This thread at the first two pages got me laughing to tears. Just on the edge of joke, seriousness and nuts.

But then it turned from psychodelic to dissing and putting off others, which rather spoiled it.

:-(

George S. Ledyard
03-19-2004, 06:52 PM
This thread at the first two pages got me laughing to tears. Just on the edge of joke, seriousness and nuts.

But then it turned from psychodelic to dissing and putting off others, which rather spoiled it.

:-(Just a minor and temporary disruption in the Force

ikkitosennomusha
03-19-2004, 09:53 PM
Sorry for the cameo, but, this just has to be said.

George:

I read an article you wrote entitled "Attack and intentions" on www.shindai.com. After reading the article I then went to www.aikieast.com and viewed you mpeg. I have to tell you that I am highly dissapointed.

For someone who wrote about the detrimental effects of fake attacks and who speaks as if their technique is intense, it looks like you couldn't fight your way out of a wet paper sack. It doesn't matter what your rank, what matters is that it is real and lives up to your comments. There was nothing great or real about it.

I will give credit to the uke in that mpeg, he sure does know how to flip for you and make you look good. The whole artice was about you bragging that most guys in seminars were so shocked by your attacks. I just did not witness the evidenve of real intent. The attacks were not desireable. The techniques were less than intense.

No, disrespect but, I think your talk and what you teach are two different things. Your studenst will reflect what you teach. I do agree with the article George %110, but you have to live by it.

The type of training I have been under in the past, you literally get the piss knocked out of you if you don't react quickly. The attack follws you as you described and it continues. Only from what I've seen, you would not be able to throw an uke I have trained IMHO because they don't fall for you, not even me; they come hard and quick. If you screw up as nage, not only are they not going down, you're getting hit. George I think you are intelligent and a good guy although you've attacked me on this forum. I also think you are good at describing aikido and have excellent perception of the way it should be. However, I reccomend not to type here so much and get back to training and applying what you preach, IMHO.

dissapointed

Mel Barker
03-19-2004, 10:46 PM
ok This is really it, ...

Aidos.....
Alas, I knew it to be a lie, but I savored it so....

Mel

shihonage
03-19-2004, 10:52 PM
(cue Brad feverishly refreshing the page to see if he REALLY had the last word)

Brian Crowley
03-20-2004, 12:00 AM
I know this topic so well because I had to know it intimately for reserach and a comprehensive exam so, I was drilled and drilled on it until I was sick! Some profs focusing certain topics and while other profs focus on others. This was one topic mine focused on.
For some strange reason this thread reminds me of the saying that if you only have a hammer you begin to see every problem as a nail.

kironin
03-20-2004, 12:11 AM
Just currious; the chinese speak of the mind leading or directing the qi...so if ki is mind, are you saying that the mind leads the mind?

Ron
only if you presume that qi spoke of by the chinese is the same animal as the "particular ki" I was talking about. I personally find what the chinese speak of qi has a sort of vital fluid not my cup of tea. When I say operating definition, I should explain that means I haven't made up my mind up about it but it seems to have some utility. Of course, Tohei Sensei always talks about mind leading the body. In all the training I have had, I don't think the possibility of equating ki with mind can be excluded. "Lead their ki" is not an unheard phrase and "Lead their mind" works as well which by the way is how a good no-touch throw works in aikido or systema. Of course, from a neuroscientist reductionist perspective, mind and body are the same. Ki IMO is completely inseparable from the mind/body unity. We can talk about aspects of this unity as particular phenomena, such as a feeling of warmth, a relaxed muscle, a sudden burst of strength, a communication, etc. but calling any one aspect ki just ends up ignoring the oneness felt in the act of mind-body coordination.

Craig

------ old photos indicate that the Japanese thought sake rather than beer is ki.

Chris Birke
03-20-2004, 04:02 AM
I entertain a variety of competing aspects of ki definitions; one that intruiged me falls into the idea of the zone, zanshin, or no mind.

How does that relate to ki in your various definitions?

// By the way, I just did extensive research into the "is beer ki" theory, so if this question doesn't quite make sense cut me some slack.

//Brad, keep posting, I'm checking here twice a day just to see what you specifically have to say!

Dennis Hooker
03-20-2004, 08:20 AM
I am a little confused here (I know - I know so what’ new about that Hooker) help me out if you can. Now I know I ain’t the sharpest knife in the drawer but like the song says “ I been to Georgia on the fast train honey I wasn’t borne no yesterday I good Christian rising and an eight grade education and ain’t no need ya’all treating me this a way” Has this been a troll from the start? If it has excuse while I get this hook out of my jawbone. If not then I want to buy a ringside seat when George and this boy get together.

Now I admit I am a little long in the tooth now but I been with some of the best and ol George is right up there. There is no one I have ever met that trained with George, regardless of martial art or organization that does not have the greatest respect for him as a person and a martial artist. I don’t this other fellow. Anyone ever met him? I do hope this is all one big joke. Hell it can be one me I don’t care.

BLangille
03-20-2004, 09:03 AM
I think this thread is, or at least has become a joke. I suspect Brad is really some overly intellegent 15 year old who is just messing with us. If he really has been practicing aikido for 15 some odd years, then I hope has learned how to kick some serious butt because he did not learn anything else.

Hanna B
03-20-2004, 12:18 PM
Ok

Ki is gluconeogenesis.
This is one of the worst pieces of BS I have read on this board.

On the other hand, I am just a PhD-student at a medical university so heck, what do I know...

ikkitosennomusha
03-20-2004, 01:09 PM
This is one of the worst pieces of BS I have read on this board.

On the other hand, I am just a PhD-student at a medical university so heck, what do I know...
Yes, the joke is on you all! I am Brad's younger cousin house sitting for him while he has been in Japan. He returns tomorrow so I have to stop these posts before he finds out. He did not clear his cookies before he left 2 weeks ago and if he finds out I have been using his computer, he will probably get upset.

Hana, if you are doing medical research, stop blabbing and share some information on your view as ki.

To all, its been fun. Hope I haven't ruined my cousin's name. I have been reading alot on aikido and the mind. I knew if I made a blunt statement as defining ki as one particular pathway, nearly all of you would blow a gasket. Come on, even I know ki is a culmination of different aspects. I just wanted to see how many people would get bent and loose it of such petty things. Even after I stated that it is ok to view ki as different things, you all wanted to keep on griping as if there was nothing better do. Maybe when you keep putting another down it makes you spirit lifited? This probably reflects you attitude in the dojo I assume.

I chose to do this with you senior aikidoka because you are the ones who should have mastered self-control and exibit a cool, open-minded character, since aikido is impart about self-character.

I am doing this for a scientific study based on your reactions. Don't worry your identities will remain unknown as I hae given them letters of the alphabet.

There was only 2 of you that completely passed. One was Dennis Hooker for figureing out that something else was going on and for keeping is demeanor in control so, hats off. Dennis has exemplified good character and represents his rank well. He is the only one I would want to train with based upon how you all treated me.

I will have to explain to Brad and I imagine he will throw me for some break-falls! haha. By the way, the bio I gave is Brad's and not mine. If I gave mine, perhaps you wouldn't have taken it seriously. I am not as ranked as he. So, thansk to all for participating in my study. This should end now.

ikkitosennomusha
03-20-2004, 01:16 PM
Oh yeah, it was interesting to see over the course of a dew days how many did not offer any legitiamte insight to the dilema and used this thread for personal attacks on myself. Some of your opinions was just as cocky and intentional as mine. Instead, all you did was some bashing.

Ok, just checked my stats and it looks like Craig and Chris also passed. Wouldn't you like to know what I was grading you on? Damn, it looks like I may have to pass George as well, although I was intending on tallying him in the failed category, he did not respond to some derogatory comments I threw out there so, the fact he didn't post a remark may push him through to passing....

The end.

shihonage
03-20-2004, 04:01 PM
Fortunately for us, no one here is going to lose their sleep over what a 13-year old troll thinks of their character development.

ikkitosennomusha
03-20-2004, 04:23 PM
Fortunately for us, everyone here is going to lose their sleep over what a brillant 13-year old genius thinks of their character development. May I be a skidmark on the mat for you.

Hanna B
03-21-2004, 08:26 AM
Unfortunately, the medical world has nothing much to say about ki - more than "we have no proof of it's existance".

I guess we've all learned about the importance of logging out of the varios boards we visit. I guess a few people should be grateful for that lesson. I sure hope your relative doesn't like to spank kids, though.

Btw, your way of assuming that aikido people should behave in a certain way, and in the same breath passing judgements on people's moral characters while manipulating quotes sounds pretty much like a godan I know. Actually, you might be him! and not Brad's young cousin. You never know. :D

Edward
03-21-2004, 10:12 AM
Well, this was one of the funniest threads I have read for a while.

I particularly agree with our young troll's below statement since the reason I personally have stopped "seriously" posting on these forums is that many members (some of whom are teachers) take it as an opportunity for personal attacks, regardless of the subject discussed.

Brad, don't be upset with your cousin (supposing it is really your cousin?), I think he taught every one a good lesson.
I just wanted to see how many people would get bent and loose it of such petty things. Even after I stated that it is ok to view ki as different things, you all wanted to keep on griping as if there was nothing better do.

Don_Modesto
03-21-2004, 03:04 PM
Fortunately for us, no one here is going to lose their sleep over what a 13-year old troll thinks of their character development.
"On the internet, no one knows you're a puppy."

indomaresa
03-21-2004, 03:11 PM
brad's little cousin? what a load of bull... You can claim to be his kind great grandmother and people will STILL remember the name brad meddling with "all due respect"

way to go kiddo.

people's definition of ki are different. Brad's definition of ki is mistaken. So his explanation will of course amount to nothing.

Ki is instant energy created by burning large amounts of glucose? Adrenaline told gluconeogenesis to do so? you're mixing spaghetti with sushi man.

What's with this fixation on instant power? Aikido never use instant power. Brad should've post his comments at Jeetkundoweb.com

thatoldfool
03-21-2004, 03:25 PM
Sounds fishy to me. I've seen trolls pull "it wasn't me" things like this before, on other forums.

Furthermore - the fact that others who have been here longer than I, and have read Brad's other postings, believe that this posting is in the same vein as the other ones, gives weight to my hypothesis that there is no "visiting cousin."

Regardless, however - I think this "experiment" was inappropriate, regardless of who carried it out. Most people kept their cool until despite "Brad's" initial, arrogant, comments. People only became slightly more irritated when "Brad" continued to post rude comments, despite promising several times to leave. I found "Brad's" comment to George S. Ledyard, calling him a "grandfather" and telling him "If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash" especially rude.

Brad, leave us, and this forum, alone. Although Aikido does teach us to be non aggressive, that does *not* mean being passive. You reap what you sow, and you got what you asked for when people replied with frustration to your statements.

Qatana
03-21-2004, 05:40 PM
Funny thing. I was curious enough to do a search on Brad on Friday. He registered a year ago and posted sporadically until mid February when he launched his campaign.

I can only imagine that something traumatic happened to him around that time- his previous posts, while having some attitude, wer nothing like his more recent ones. I'm thinking he's had a bit of a disappointment recently, and took it out on us.

The funny thing is that i can now find no record of Brad in the archives.

stuartjvnorton
03-21-2004, 07:32 PM
Yes, the joke is on you all! I am Brad's younger cousin house sitting for him while he has been in Japan. He returns tomorrow so I have to stop these posts before he finds out.
lol!

"It wasn't me, it was the one-armed troll!"

:-D

George S. Ledyard
03-21-2004, 10:06 PM
I found "Brad's" comment to George S. Ledyard, calling him a "grandfather"
Hey, no problem here. I look like somebody's Grandfather? Well Duh, maybe because I am somebody's Grandfather. I have three step grand children to be precise. Ok, it was a bit of a shock to hear someone call me "Grandpa" the first time but I'm fine with it now...

thatoldfool
03-21-2004, 10:15 PM
Well, if the man in question is OK with it, I guess i'll put down my swords ;)

However - combined with "If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash" - I felt I had to say something...

George S. Ledyard
03-21-2004, 10:49 PM
Well, if the man in question is OK with it, I guess i'll put down my swords ;)

However - combined with "If you were like this with me, your mouth would write a check your body can't cash" - I felt I had to say something...
Ah, don't worry, the fact that I am on the portly side is simply how I lull my enemies into a false feeling of security...

John Matsushima
03-22-2004, 12:40 AM
I think that for Westerners, it is important to study Japanese culture in the pursuit of AIKIDO. The term ki is not defined soley by its use in the Japanese martial arts, but is a word which is prevalent throughout Japanese language and used in everyday life. For example, Japanese often use words like "genKI" to mean in good health, and "byouki" to mean sickness. TenKI is also used to describe weather, and kuuKI is air. If you are crazy, you are KIchigai, and if you are good at paying attention to other's needs, you are said to have good "Ki ga kiku". The reason that it is so difficult for westerners to understand what is ki, is because there is no direct translation. There are many English words to describe it, but to know the essence of it, one must understand the way of the Japanese. Otherwise, it would be like if people in China who couldn't even speak English tried to play country music, and got stuck in arguing over what the true meaning of what a redneck is, without ever knowing what it means to have your dog die, your woman leave you, or having set foot in a single trailer park. Y'all come back now, ya hear?

Jason Mudd
03-22-2004, 08:12 AM
Fortunately for us, everyone here is going to lose their sleep over what a brillant 13-year old genius thinks of their character development. May I be a skidmark on the mat for you.
(italics my own)

Most people dismissed your post for the most part. Sure the information was interesting, but under reflection was considered something that neither fully explained, nor fit in with personal experience. Most people got bent out of shape more for your attitude than the actual information you presented (look into method vs material).

All this self-congratulations because people responded to you? Since you're intelligent (you said so, right), I'll leave it to you to find out why this is so important to you.

Regardless, the thread was interesting for all the information presented (especially considering the slippery nature of the subject). So I'd like to thank many of the posters.

And sure, I guess it taught some people about how when they encounter an arrogant personality gripping some self-fabricated false-hood as truth due to his/her own limited experience, that they don't have to resort to personal attacks to point out his/her ignorance.

Is this the lesson?

Congratulations. The same can be said of any number of people we come into contact with on a day to day basis.

Being a mirror does not make you special - you simply reflect that which makes others glow.

aikidocapecod
03-22-2004, 09:12 AM
So most of us agree on just about everything written in this post. Some was ugly..we agree...some was funny..we agree.....some was educational..we agree....some was bogus...again we agree....

I do not know what all the uproar was about....most of us were in complete agreement!!!!!!!!! :-) :-)

But......are we any closer to what Ki really is? And if I may ask the question...does it matter?

In a class of 20 Aikidoka, ask the question..

"What is Ki" If I am in the class I bet you get 21 answers....because we will each have a different definition of Ki...And I know I would change my mind at least once!!!!!

kironin
03-22-2004, 12:33 PM
The reason that it is so difficult for westerners to understand what is ki, is because there is no direct translation. There are many English words to describe it, but to know the essence of it, one must understand the way of the Japanese.
I disagree with what you have said.

It's not difficult for westerner's to understand ki in aikido anymore than the Japanese. Maybe even easier because we don't have all the general cultural references to confuse the issue. As long as you are taught what the concept of Ki is in your dojo or organization with some clarity and consistent pedagogy then there is no need to study Japanese culture to understand it. The only reason to study Japanses culture would be to appreciate that the term does have wider cultural references that are not necessarily relevant to your training. A one hour lecture on the history of the term and the cultural references it involves should be enough for any westerner to appreciate that the term doesn't mean the same thing necessarily outside the context of your organization.

If you don't explain the term in the course of your training, don't use it. Certainly don't rely on people having to study a whole another culture to understand it. An aikido student shouldn't have to become a scholar of Japanese culture. Aikido is more universal than the way of the Japanese. We are not koryu.

I use various words derived from the Japanese language all the time like shihonage, kokyudosa, or randori, but I certainly don't fool myself into believing I am speaking Japanese. I am simply using technical terminology that has a common meaning within our organization based on our training pedagogy.

has a thread ever gone over 200 posts? ;-)

Craig

Dan Rubin
03-22-2004, 05:12 PM
I would like to relate how often I’m impressed by the quality of the posts on AikiWeb. Despite some teasing, you all were quite kind to Brad. Some of you were not only kind, you actually tried to mentor him. I shudder to think of the responses he would have received elsewhere. This reflects well on you, and on Jun.

Dan Rubin

Chuck Clark
03-22-2004, 06:47 PM
I just returned from teaching a seminar near Seattle this past weekend and didn't take time to fire up my laptop. However, I spent some delightful time on the mat with George Ledyard and he mentioned this thread. After reading all of the posts, all I can say is, "Mr. Medling, you might check to see if your meds are still working. You either aren't taking them or you've built up a tolerance. If you truly have gone away, please stay away. This has grown old."

aikidocapecod
03-23-2004, 07:26 AM
OK....I think it is tme to give Brad a break.

Yes....he or a stand-in said or typed a couple dumb things. Well...not dumb, but rather some things that with a little more thought would have been left un-typed. Aikido is the Path of Harmony. The ideal of Aikido is to show, without violence, the error of one's unwarranted attack. In this case the attack was verbal.

And while this thread saw some very disrespectful things said to George Ledyard Sensei, as should never have happened, I am quite sure that Ledyard Sensei paid them very little atention.

In the Spirit of Aikido, let us forgive Mr. Medling his few moments cranial chaos and return to The Way......

Larry

PeterR
03-23-2004, 06:55 PM
Like a roman candle he appears to have burnt himself out. Actually found his web page (http://www.geocities.com/aikiburade/) - for a personal page with an Aikido theme its not bad - his pici is in the guitar section.

At the risk of totally misreading the man, I've seen this situation before. He likes Aikido, he likes it a lot, within the confines of his experience he might actually be pretty good. He is also desperate to belong. In that light he lists as primary teachers people he has met once (at a training camp), elevates them and disparages others. I doubt this would be happening if he found a good local teacher.

Two things will happen.

1. Like the aforementioned roman candle, he will burn out and somewhere, someplace spout off on how terrible Aikido is.

2. Experience will open his eyes.

At the moment he is one of the ultimate expressions of the 5th Kyu Shihan. Good luck to him.

Dereck Schomer
03-23-2004, 11:11 PM
Hello to all!

I am new here on aiki-web. I have been a student of Medling-sensei. I knew nothing about this thread until Medling-sensei got back from out of town and one of his lower ranking students confessed to posting on this site after a class (and is not his cousin).

Medling-sensei used that student's computer one time when dropping him off after practice. Well, he did not clear the cookies so everytime the student clicked onto this site, it was still logged in under him. I believe the last real post by him was when he was asking about "kaeishi-waza".

Medling-sensei squarred the matter away and and put it to rest. The student wasn't really aware that he was posting under Medling-sensei's name until it was too late to change it so, he just ran with it. It was an honest mistake.

Medling-sensei did read the remarks on this page as did I, and he did not place any emphasis on it. He only commented to me in private for about maybe 1 minuite and stated that for people with a supposedly deep understanding of aikido to make such judgments and remarks was not aiki and I agree. I read somewhere in this thread where George mentioned this in practice to someone? Now why would a moderate ranking person feel the need to do this? Perhaps insecurity? I really couldn't say.

To close, I can tell you Peter guessed right. Medling-sensei is good without a doubt and he doesn't have to come onto this site to prove it. If you've ever been thrown by him, you will never forget it! He is patient, understanding, and cares about what his students are learning. He carries himself well and represents aikido with dignity. If you were to meet him on the streets, chances are you wouldn't antagonize him anyway becasue the guy is brut and massive! He only put a shot of his face on his site to tone his image down. How humble is that?

This is my one and only post. I don't care to engage in the nonsense here. Everyone has a perception of ki and they are entitled to it. This young man who started this thread, to be as inexperienced as him, got off to a clever start. For one to scrutinize someone's perception of ki means they must already have the perfect answer. Until then, no one has a right to dismiss anything.

As far as Medling-sensei, he does not really care about all this and if some of you more experienced people got your feathers ruffled so easy over this, just think of how one might ruffle them on the mat. So, display some control on this site and let your experience be noticed by the way you deal with some of these, yes, silly threads. Medling-sensei is clearly more focused on training.

I hope all will recieve this post as an appology and clarification of the misunderstanding.

Dereck

shihonage
03-24-2004, 01:01 AM
Hello to all!

( proceeds with a
lecture about self-control and respect, another jab toward Mr. Ledyard,
"relayed" comment "from" Mr. Medling,
thinly veiled physical threat,
a statement about Mr. Medling's humility
and a pat on the head toward the 13-year-old troll )

I hope all will recieve this post as an appology and clarification of the misunderstanding.

Dereck
"Dereck" ?

More like "Brad", am I right or am I right.

Come on Brad, this is the lowest I've ever seen a person stump to on an Internet forum.

But, I must admit, this is hilarious.

Keep up the good work.

Hanna B
03-24-2004, 04:06 AM
For one to scrutinize someone's perception of ki means they must already have the perfect answer. Until then, no one has a right to dismiss anything.
"God is my left toe." You do not have the right to dismiss my statement.

Greg Jennings
03-24-2004, 06:28 AM
"Dereck" ?

More like "Brad", am I right or am I right.
An IP check would prove but not disprove.

Regards,

Jason Mudd
03-24-2004, 11:04 AM
More like "Brad", am I right or am I right.

Come on Brad, this is the lowest I've ever seen a person stump to on an Internet forum.

But, I must admit, this is hilarious.

Keep up the good work.
Actually, for all you know the person who posts under the name "Brad Medling" isn't even the real Brad Medling (the supposed sensei and creator of the website). Not that this isn't the case with anyone else who posts, but unfortunately the present web of deceit doesn't tend to lend much credit to the current holder of the account.

It could very well be that such a cliched event occurred. The cousin, no wait the student, got a hold of the account somehow...

The website appears unfinished (see only bokken discussed under weapons and click on "About Brad"). And if he's a sensei I'm surprised there's no mention of the dojo he teaches at, or even a link to it, or an invitation to train with him.

The more logic that is applied to the situation, the more it would appear that the best course of action is just to stop. The thread had a lot of interesting information.

How about we leave it at that, or just continue the ki discussion without you trying to dig yourself out of the hole you put yourself in.

The worst that will happen is that a lot of people will take your future postings with a grain of salt. Just avoid this whole nonsense of "somebody else posted" and accept that other people have a different opinion then your own - everyone doesn't have to agree.

And please quit casting stones, you're liable to shatter your abode.

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
03-24-2004, 03:06 PM
If this is a car wreck, it was kind of like one of those things where the car crashes into a bunch of pillows and clowns climb out. I initially dreaded a 'troll thread' full of angry rants, by aikidoka embarassing themselves by flipping out (no pun intended) over something silly.

I was pleasantly surprised by everyone's good-natured and light-hearted remarks. I actually laughed out loud. ^_^ You've reaffirmed my faith in aikidoka as people able to react well to a potentially bad situation. You did not succumb to the urge to argue, but in fact discussed and joked. You also have done a good job of not trying to 'doom' those who have said unwise or incendiary things. In what I think is a good aiki spirit, you all seem willing to reconcile.

As for Brad, I'd reccomend you consider the study of ukemi. As you know, in aikido, when you are off-balanced (cause is unimportant), you protect what's important (head/neck) and smoothly let yourself fall, coming back up to your feet. Letting go of your broken stance. I've found it a very good study in life as well.

As for the topic itself? Well, I think Brad has identified the 'adrenaline rush' as a source of momentary strength. Doubtless, there are complex metabolic processes going on in any physical activity, and as students of a mind/body discipline, we should consider this. Perhaps 'the right mindset' or 'good ki control' involves altering one's metabolic state. Evolution produces complex things that work 'well enough', sometimes very well, but rarely simply. Sadly, Mother Nature did not leave clear blueprints with helpful comments, and there is much to be learned.

An interesting topic for study?

Ron Tisdale
03-24-2004, 03:10 PM
Hello to all!

Medling-sensei squarred the matter away and and put it to rest. The student wasn't really aware that he was posting under Medling-sensei's name until it was too late to change it so, he just ran with it. It was an honest mistake.
It's never too late to change an honest mistake. Only a dishonest one.
Medling-sensei did read the remarks on this page as did I, and he did not place any emphasis on it. He only commented to me in private for about maybe 1 minuite and stated that for people with a supposedly deep understanding of aikido to make such judgments and remarks was not aiki and I agree. I read somewhere in this thread where George mentioned this in practice to someone? Now why would a moderate ranking person feel the need to do this? Perhaps insecurity? I really couldn't say.
I'd have to agree with you here...you really couldn't say, not having met or trained with George...and he's not what I would call a 'moderate ranking person' (something about body odor there?), but rather, a fairly highly ranked person.

Its interesting how when people are caught out, they promptly say 'well, its not aiki to tell me how wrong I am.' Well, someone here messed up, and it wasn't the people on this site...
To close, I can tell you Peter guessed right. Medling-sensei is good without a doubt and he doesn't have to come onto this site to prove it. If you've ever been thrown by him, you will never forget it! He is patient, understanding, and cares about what his students are learning. He carries himself well and represents aikido with dignity. If you were to meet him on the streets, chances are you wouldn't antagonize him anyway becasue the guy is brut and massive! He only put a shot of his face on his site to tone his image down. How humble is that?

Some of the people posting here are large, fit, strong, and have been training in quite a few martial arts for quite a long time, AND under internationally recognized teachers (we really still don't know much about Brad's history, let alone you or the 'junior'). But you have no problem antagonizing them...nor did your 'junior' student. Fact is, this is the realm of words...your size, my size, Brad's size doesn't really enter into it. Oh, and in case you didn't know it, veiled threats are lame.
For one to scrutinize someone's perception of ki means they must already have the perfect answer.

Whoever gave you this idea? Try taking some classes in critical thinking...I think it will help.

I hope all will recieve this post as an appology and clarification of the misunderstanding.

Dereck
You appologized somewhere? Can you please quote the section you consider an appology?

Lets see:

someone posed as someone else on the computer...

realized they were doing it...

decided to continue doing it knowing it was wrong...

when caught, lied AGAIN about their identity...

blew off people who were nicely trying to help...

then got mad when they finally let him have it.

Yeah, I'd say an appology is warrented. And it hasn't come yet, either.

Ron Tisdale

Don_Modesto
03-24-2004, 03:55 PM
"Dereck" ?

More like "Brad", am I right or am I right.

Come on Brad, this is the lowest I've ever seen a person stump to on an Internet forum.

But, I must admit, this is hilarious.

Keep up the good work.
Man! I want to get on the mat with you some time. You and I think so alike it's uncanny. Thanks for the smile.

Didn't warning flags go up for anywone else when Brad started asking questions and then congratulating people for the right answers?

Greg Jennings
03-24-2004, 04:09 PM
Didn't warning flags go up for anywone else when Brad started asking questions and then congratulating people for the right answers?
I started a couple of "Isn't it condescending to..." replies but deleted them in favor of just ignoring.

I guess I'll eventually get to the point where I can just blow it off without getting peeved at all.

Regards,

Ron Tisdale
03-24-2004, 04:19 PM
I'm not particularly peeved...I just think its time a spade was called a spade. No real emotion to it (except tired maybe).

Ron (just my opinion, yada yada yada, you know)

George S. Ledyard
03-25-2004, 01:22 AM
It's never too late to change an honest mistake. Only a dishonest one.

Yeah, I'd say an appology is warrented. And it hasn't come yet, either.

Ron Tisdale
Hi Ron, Knew you'd get sucked in eventually... I have to say you exercised great restraint. Good effort!

Ron Tisdale
03-25-2004, 08:45 AM
Thanks George!

I probably should have just stayed out of it.

By the way, Craig, thanks for your answer. I'm aware of the differences in the descriptions of ki/chi...but mostly just confused by it all. Your answer gave me a few more clues.

Ron

AsimHanif
03-26-2004, 01:00 PM
This has been so funny!