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Juho Karppinen
03-05-2004, 11:34 AM
I was just walking my dog and a question popped into my mind: Would aikido work on animals?

Throws and such not withstanding, could the techniques and principles be applied, for example, on a big 'n' mean looking dog who's running straight towards you froth dripping from its mouth? Could it be restrained without injuring it and at the same time not getting injured yourself?

mantis
03-05-2004, 12:11 PM
Juho your thinking to much! Ha!

Aikido works because we are Bi-Peds. all linear off balances are either down the line of the feet, or perpendicular to the feet. (judo exploits these also). all cirular movements are really a sequence of linear off balances effecting the body the same as a linear off balance.

a dog for instance has 4 legs, so no, the 2 lines of off balance will not work in the same way.

a 4 legged animal is like a table though. remove one leg and it will fall over. This principle is common to aikido and judo as well, so you would have to adapt your techniques on a quadraped slightly. a leg lock could work, but i don't think you would stand much of a chance against a dog in the first place.

mantis
03-05-2004, 12:13 PM
:freaky:

taras
03-05-2004, 12:18 PM
it wouldn't work to well on a 3 legged alien either.
I think a three-legged alien would be ideal for a tenchi nage - just pull one leg.

I've used tencans in the past to get away from an attacking dog. The problem is it will come back at you (unless you are standing on the edge of a cliff).

Qatana
03-05-2004, 12:19 PM
If i knew how to tenkan four years ago i would not have three scars from Rottweiler teeth in my leg today.

Try moving your dog with your arm. Now try to move him from your center.

Isn't this aikido?

Ted Marr
03-05-2004, 12:23 PM
Depends on how far out you want to take the "this is aikido" theory. Obviously, none of the specific waza you have learned will work. Especially since 99% of them assume your attacker is attacking you with his ARMS. However, I'm sure that there are people out there who will say something like "but you can use the principles of aikido, moving the dog's center with your own to throw them!" Personally, the only thing I can figure (and it's a stretch) is that you might be able to twist the dog's neck enough to get it to lock up the vertebre and go over on it's back. Sort of like iriminage, except that you have to worry about the teeth. Bottom line; if O Sensei were attacked by a rabid dog, he might have figured something out, and that would be aikicanine. Since we have no record of such, just stick with the humans. They're more dangerous anyways.

mantis
03-05-2004, 12:30 PM
A jujitsu instructor i had told me that if a dog bites you on the forearm, then jam your arm further into his mouth. this will cause him to choke a little and he will release you. dogs tear at meat, and are expecting you to retreat or pull away.

when the dog grabs a hold of your arm (lets say right arm) you put your left arm behind its neck and pull in to your body, while your right arm is pushing the dogs neck backwards.

willy_lee
03-05-2004, 12:59 PM
I remember there was some aikido shihan who used to practice tenkan with big dogs.

If you feel like it you can practice tenkan on a bull as well. :)

Trying to keep up with a playful dog could be good for your footwork. And wrestling with a big playful dog is fun!

Being attacked by a dog (> chihuahua size), on the other hand, is just bad news. It's amazing how fast and strong dogs can be. If it's big, mean, or trained, you definitely don't want to be there.

I have never been attacked by a dog (been chased though). I have read plenty enough to make me never want that experience. Since some people are now starting to post suggestions on actual waza, I wanted to remind people that dogs are smarter, stronger, and faster than most people are willing to think.

=wl

BC
03-05-2004, 01:33 PM
A jujitsu instructor i had told me that if a dog bites you on the forearm, then jam your arm further into his mouth. this will cause him to choke a little and he will release you. dogs tear at meat, and are expecting you to retreat or pull away.

when the dog grabs a hold of your arm (lets say right arm) you put your left arm behind its neck and pull in to your body, while your right arm is pushing the dogs neck backwards.
I've been told by dog trainers that that will not work on a trained guard/attack dog. You will just help the dog inflict more damage on you. FYI.

vanstretch
03-05-2004, 01:39 PM
a dog is the best animal I can think of that is closest in strength to a human being. A good attack dog privately owned and /or a police canine will tear you to shreds until commanded to back off. My advice is to not mess with the animals. maybe tenkan will work, and maybe tenkan won't. this is reality. thanks from the local popo!

aikidoc
03-05-2004, 01:42 PM
My Pekingnese uses aikido on our other dogs-she blends, redirects their energy, its interesting to watch her do it.

ryujin
03-05-2004, 04:51 PM
Not sure about doing aikido to animals, but some leg sweeps will work if you can catch more than one. I do know that Clark sensei's dog can do a pretty good kote gaeshi. :D :circle:

J. David Geurkink
03-05-2004, 04:57 PM
I saw the heading for this thread and immediately started laughing. I happen to work at a zoo, and my sensei is always joking with me about doing aikido on my rhinos (ha, ha, everyone can see that won't work). But the fact of the matter is, aikido movements, not necessarily techniques, are helpful in my work. I use tenkan quite often to get out of the way of large antelope and zebras, tenshin is used for opening a door quickly and getting out of the way, I have even used an irimi movement on a large red kangaroo (approx. 6' tall and 190lbs.) that tried to kick me. As he reared up onto his tail to kick with his back feet, I sidestepped, got behind him and grabbed his tail, effectively capturing him. I'm not saying that I would test my aikido on a tiger or hyena, but I do think that some of the core movements are applicable. To wit, look at a matador as he works the bull, tenkan tenkan tenkan.

Just my 2 cents:eek: :D

p00kiethebear
03-05-2004, 06:17 PM
a 4 legged animal is like a table though. remove one leg and it will fall over. This principle is common to aikido and judo as well, so you would have to adapt your techniques on a quadraped slightly. a leg lock could work, but i don't think you would stand much of a chance against a dog in the first place.

Haven't you ever seen a three legged dog? They are just as balanced as any other animal and can do everything the others can. = P

Ian Williams
03-06-2004, 12:00 AM
<bruce lee>

my flying crane style will defeat your yappy dog style

</bruce lee>

adwelly
03-06-2004, 03:57 AM
I've used Tenkan on an attacking Alsation as well. I was out running at the time. It's the only time I've ever used Aikido in 'real life' tm.

It worked perfectly - the dog shot passed me and ended up about 15 feet away with what I can only describe as a puzzled expression on its muzzle. It didn't come back at me.

...of course the moment was completely spoiled as I wobbled for a moment then fell over backwards. By that point the dog's owner had caught up and leashed it so all was well.

indomaresa
03-06-2004, 07:26 AM
well, i did some nikkyo, kotegaeshi as well as several other techniques on my rottweiler.

She just whines and bit/nibble on my pinning arm. Makes me feel sorry and hugs it afterwards. :)

BUT i've done some serious dog training, and unless you're incredibly fast, there's no outrunning a dog. Or fighting. They're out of the question.

1. Fold your hands, don't show the forearm. Use kickboxing stance to defend. And everytime it jumps, do ukemi.

2. In case its teeth managed to find a mark on your forearm or legs, don't pull. Ukemi forward TOWARDS the dog. This is how I usually managed to make them release.

3. Get up quickly and stand straight.

IMO, All dogs started out as a 4th Dan Aikidoka. They're superbly balanced, their center is perfect(ever tried playing tug of war with a a rottweiler?), They're experts at guessing your movement, and all their movements are completely relaxed.

antdigoh
03-06-2004, 12:36 PM
ude furi undo-tenkan works, when i visited my sister in austria her german sheperd runs toward me and barking out loud, so i just side stepped about 45 degree and hit the dog on the jaw with a punch, the dog flew but it kept on coming back towards me, just did the same technique until my sister shouted at the dog to stop.

p00kiethebear
03-06-2004, 04:12 PM
well, i did some nikkyo, kotegaeshi as well as several other techniques on my rottweiler.

What kind of freaks do we HAVE in this community! :freaky:

vanstretch
03-06-2004, 07:41 PM
Hey guys, was any footage shown of that vegas tiger trainer "gunther"?, the guy that got bit? I forgot his name but dont those types that live with the animals have some kind of energy going with the big cats,so they wont be lunchmeat for the cats? I wonder what his mistake was to get himself chewed up?

Ian Williams
03-07-2004, 01:45 AM
footage of the roy attack by his tiger can be seen at

Hideous Tiger Attack (http://consumptionjunction.com/downloads/cj_27226.gif)

not for the faint hearted... it's hideous!..

indomaresa
03-07-2004, 03:39 AM
What kind of freaks do we HAVE in this community! :freaky:
Nathan,

I know it's sadistic to apply a full nikkyo, so I did it slowly, with increasing pressure. Never even got halfway, because they would protest and I'd feel sorry.

BUT, I like applying kuzushi to my dogs. It's a lot of fun and the dogs thinks it's a challenge to knock me off my feet as well.

If you fool around with a dog a lot, it's IMPOSSIBLE not to test aikido on your dog.

ajbarron
03-07-2004, 10:00 AM
Dear Forum readers,

We have two dogs and I find that my breed of choice for practice is the Bishon-Shitzu. The attacks are loving, yet committed, and will be maintained for mutually agreed upon bouts of practice time. The ability of this breed to maintain center, which is low at the best of times, is remarkable.

Black Labs although enthusiastic about the process lack the control and sensitivity to be a good Uke. Maintaining center is not they're strength.

The committed attack of the Bishon-Shitzu, especilly the yap and leap ( the doggie equivalent of a flying shomenuchi, is much suited for either irimi nage or kotegeishi and also a nice little tenkan.

Koshinage is so far beyond our skill level but we will endeavor to develop this and new techniques as time progresses.

At this time we are working with a publisher on Aiki Yap, A step by step beautifully photographed text of basic pet techniques. We are stumbling at this time over the Appendices where we have attempted section for other pet lovers. The aquatic and the fowl section have come to a grinding halt and amphibians has yet to get off the ground.

We will keep you updated as we near publication time.

Jamie Stokes
03-09-2004, 01:22 AM
Hi all,

sorry I missed this earlier! sounds like fun.

Big dogs move at a comparable speed, not on acceleration, but on cornering. Leading them is hard, as they can put on a spurt and latch onto your hand/ wrist / forearm.

They are naturally good at ukemi, look at how fast they regain their feet.

Little dogs move way faster than us humans. And they also have a smaller turning circle ( I have done ukemi waza with my Pomeranian, and he is quick!).

As for other animals, outside my field of experience. But the usual theory of "get out of the way" works well.

Cheers,

Jamie

Chris Birke
03-09-2004, 03:06 AM
If the dog doesn't really want to attack you, you have a chance. Otherwise, good luck ;D, (I'd like to watch the video of the attempt.)

http://www.dogproblems.com/art48.htm

Reminds me 20 foot gun disarms or 10 on 1 streetfight victors. The winning or losing outcome is predicated on the validity of the attack; the victims actions are subordinate.

Martial secrets or martial myths?

batemanb
03-09-2004, 06:25 AM
I remember there was some aikido shihan who used to practice tenkan with big dogs.
Gozo Shioda if I remember correctly. I think it's mentioned in Aikido Shugyo.

http://www.shindokanbooks.com/shugyo.shtml

Regards

Bryan

willy_lee
03-09-2004, 10:56 AM
If the dog doesn't really want to attack you, you have a chance. Otherwise, good luck ;D,
I think sometimes people play with their dogs and can "win" -- and then say to themselves, I could beat this dog if I really had to. What they don't realize is that the dog is playing with them -- the dog knows that going too hard means noone to play with eventually. :)

=wl

indomaresa
03-09-2004, 02:14 PM
yes, i agree

My dogs tend to be docile and affectionate. But I've seen some situations where they really turned nasty. i.e: chasing the postman :) , or during a dog's turf war.

I've thought up some methods that'll PROBABLY work against angry dogs, but I'd rather not try it myself.

John Bach
03-09-2004, 02:44 PM
Greetings, Juho...

There is an essay in Richard Heckler's book, "Aikido and the New Warrior" that deals with an aikidoka who uses aiki principles with domesticated wolves (if I remember correctly...) I reviewed the book on this website a few years ago... it is under the "book review" link, under the "essays" topic. The book deals with a number of situations where aikido principles can be applied...

Hope this helps..

John

p.s. sorry if this gets posted twice; my browser crashed when I sent it the first time.

akiy
03-09-2004, 05:11 PM
There is an essay in Richard Heckler's book, "Aikido and the New Warrior" that deals with an aikidoka who uses aiki principles with domesticated wolves (if I remember correctly...
That would be O. Fred Donaldson. Really interesting guy. His notion of "play" is quite something. He's applied his ideas regarding "play" with animals like wolves (some domesticated, others wild, I believe) as well as many other animals including lions, bears, and many other animals. I personally have had fun "playing" with him...

His website can be found here:

http://www.originalplay.com/

-- Jun

Largo
03-10-2004, 12:30 AM
yeah, aikido could work on animals. a good tsuki with a jo should work on a dog just as well as a person, provided you can get a clean shot.

willy_lee
03-10-2004, 11:34 AM
yeah, aikido could work on animals. a good tsuki with a jo should work on a dog just as well as a person, provided you can get a clean shot.
That "clean shot" is the real problem, of course. :)

=wl

Jamie Stokes
03-10-2004, 08:33 PM
Most of this has been on quadrepeds.

I would not like to try this with chimpanzees or gorrillas ( their arm strength is fantastic).

Polar bears are the worlds largest living land based predator, and I think the best way to deal with them is to be in a vehicle that get far away.

Now, if there was an animal from, say Jurrasic park, easu to deal with.

Bonk the computer animator over the head, end of problem.

Cheers,

Jamie

Largo
03-10-2004, 10:57 PM
Willy lee- a shomen strike could work too.