PDA

View Full Version : Tsuki Irimi nage (irimi)


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Jack Robertson
02-23-2004, 03:34 PM
Hi everyone. I was wondering. My technique doesn't seem good enough to take uke down at the end. I can deflect the strike and step left just fine but I can't seem to get the throw part down.

Is there some kind of hidden pivot in there?

Basically I'm asking what should be done with the arm? I hear that you are supposed to cut down but when I do it, the person just steps back a little bit.


Any tips for the technique after you step left and deflect the strike?

Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

akiy
02-23-2004, 05:00 PM
Hi Jack,

What feedback have you received from your instructor on your problems with the technique? Have you asked?

-- Jun

Jack Robertson
02-23-2004, 05:20 PM
My instructor eh.... I don't quite have one yet.

: )

PeterKelly
02-23-2004, 05:21 PM
Hi Jack

remember that when you do Aikido technique that it is not just the use of arm that takes down the opponent, but the use of your centre, if your centre is used to throw your opponent he will fall. Also it may help if you check the angle that you will be entering at. If you are not entering triangularly, then there will be a clash, strength is never a good bedfellow with effective Aiki technique - just a thought, work hard.

-Peter

Jack Robertson
02-23-2004, 05:30 PM
Hi Peter,

Yeah, I know what you mean. I try to make sure I'm not muscling my way through the technique. That's why I was thinking of adding a pivot in there. My only fear is that my book doesn't illustrate or mention a pivot in the technique, so I'm thinking that I might be doing something wrong with my arm.

I was also thinking that it maybe when stepping with my right leg, I should position it behind my opponent, so that he doesn't have balance when I strike down with my arm.

I'll get it, eventually: )

I think my pivot idea would work, but I think that there is a quicker way to execute it.

akiy
02-23-2004, 05:30 PM
Hi Jack,
My instructor eh.... I don't quite have one yet.
I think it's good you're thinking about the art, but my advice for you would be to wait until you start training before you start trying out the techniques. What you're learning in your books (and here) should only be taken as supplemental material to your regular, day-to-day training with a qualified instructor...

-- Jun

Jack Robertson
02-23-2004, 06:23 PM
Hi Jun,

I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a problem. I'm not really trying to cram all the techniques into my mind as fast as I can.

I get to start taking Aikido in 2-3 months (at this point it's looking like 3).

So basically I'm trying to slowly and patiently get the basics down.

So far I've got my kamae down. Hidari-hanmi, migi-hanmi, hidari-gyaku-hanmi, etc. I can run into a front breakfall and I can do a back breakfall from standing.

I'm currently trying to get my stubborn right quadricep to become flexible so I can sit in seiza properly.

Recently, I decided to try and learn a throw from the book (I currently know just a few of the simpler pins and techniques; no throws). I found one that I liked (Tsuki Irimi-nage (irimi)).

Anyway, I don't think I would be able to stop myself if I wanted to. I can't stop thinking about Aikido. Whether it's a quote from O'Sensei, or a breakfall, or a golden bridge: ) I see Aikido in my life everywhere. Whether it's in the hallway, the weightroom, a class, a throwing pit, or even my bedroom, I see it!

But what's really cool is now, I'm beginning to feel it.

shihonage
02-23-2004, 06:44 PM
Basically I'm asking what should be done with the arm?
Your questions originate from a limited frame of understanding.

The answers will be naturally just as limited to the same frame.

Even if you get an answer now and you will "get it to work" on this partner, it will not work on another, or it will not work on the same partner under slightly different circumstances.

You need to start at the dojo, not at a book.
I hear that you are supposed to cut down but when I do it, the person just steps back a little bit.
Here's my take, however...

how exactly is he going to "step back" when you are facing his right side, with your left hand on his neck ?

If you're going to practice irimi nage on your own, you definitely need to use the typical version, not the "become Steven Seagal in 3 easy lessons" version which is what you seem to describe.

Jack Robertson
02-23-2004, 07:17 PM
LOL Steven Seagal in 3 easy lessons!!!

If I was trying to be Steven Seagal, I'd walk around with a credit card at all times. (I'm joking, Steven Seagal is cool : ) )

Anyway, unless I'm mistaken, Kisshomaru and Moriteru Ueshiba aren't trying to be Steven Seagal in 3 steps. (This is their book)
Your questions originate from a limited frame of understanding

Is it possible that I'm trying to describe it in the simplest possible way? Is it wise to guess where questions originate?
Even if you get an answer now and you will "get it to work" on this partner, it will not work on another, or it will not work on the same partner under slightly different circumstances

Well, it may seem that I'm asking my best friend to throw me a "slow one" when I do this, but that is not the case. When I said I can step left and deflect just fine, I wasn't kidding.
how exactly is he going to "step back" when you are facing his right side, with your left hand on his neck ?

I'd imagine it would be different if my left hand was on his shoulder. In this book, there are 2 different types of Tsuki Irimi-nage. There is irimi (which is the one I'm trying to do and tenshin (which is the one that seems to fit your description).

Well, thank you for responding Aleksey. Though, perhaps your answers originate from "a limited frame of understanding."

P.S. Sorry about the sarcasm, I couldn't resist. :)

Jack Robertson
02-23-2004, 07:19 PM
I'd imagine it would be different if my left hand was on his shoulder.

I meant to say neck.

:D

shihonage
02-23-2004, 08:05 PM
I'd imagine it would be different if my left hand was on his neck. In this book, there are 2 different types of Tsuki Irimi-nage. There is irimi (which is the one I'm trying to do and tenkan (which is the one that seems to fit your description).
Do the tenkan version for a while, as it is the one more commonly practiced, and easier to do.

PeterR
02-23-2004, 08:45 PM
Jack - it has to be said. Every time someone reads books, watches videos and practices by themselves before getting on the mat, the instructor has a harder time of it.

Worse case that ever happened to me was a guy grasping a book he read and wanting to discuss why what I was doing was not Aikido. Most cases is a student who moves the way he thinks he saw on the video. Better the empty cup.

Your Aikido starts in three months.

I would use the time to stretch (learning to sit in seiza is a stretch) and running or some other aerobic activity. Three months is perfect for a number of fitness inducing activities - sort of a shugyo. If you limit the activity to a time period you often can go much further with it.

For example - tell yourself that you will run 10 km - three times a week for three months at the end of which you re-evaluate how often you will run if at all. The benefits don't disappear - especially if another physical activity replaces it.

akiy
02-23-2004, 10:12 PM
Hi Jack,
I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a problem. I'm not really trying to cram all the techniques into my mind as fast as I can.
I wouldn't think of it as cramming techniques into your head. Rather, by studying out of a book, you're not receiving proper feedback on what you're learning and, therefore, probably picking up bad habits that you may not notice nor understand. Training with a qualified instructor will head off any of these bad habits from embedding itself into your body. Some of these habits might even be dangerous...
I get to start taking Aikido in 2-3 months (at this point it's looking like 3).
If you're really serious about doing aikido, then waiting three months is nothing if you think about doing it for the rest of your life.

-- Jun

Bronson
02-24-2004, 12:03 AM
Awww, Peter beat me to it :D

Bronson

Andy
02-26-2004, 04:14 PM
I understand your concern, but I don't think it's a problem. [etc etc etc]
Are you going to be this hard-headed with your Aikido teacher when you actually start training in "two to three months"? It sure looks here like you're ignoring advice from many sincere people with truckloads of Aikido experience.

My Aikido Eight Ball says "Cup too full. Empty and try again."

Janet Rosen
02-26-2004, 06:09 PM
You think you are learning kamae, movements, etc. but without an instructor, all you are doing is instilling muscle memory that may well be quite different from what is correct, that will make it harder to learn correctly when the time comes.

What do we say about sword cutting: better one good cut then 100 wrong ones?

Mark V. Smith
02-28-2004, 04:20 AM
Peter, Jun, Andy, Janet give good advice for the health and longevity of your aikido career. The time you have to wait is as nothing if you use it to prepare yourself to learn rather than infusing yourself with things which may need to be un-learned. I waited about 20 years to find the right place and time to learn.

Ask your instructor-to-be which non-technical books you could be reading to inspire you, open your mind, and prepare your soul for the journey you have ahead of you. Some books will be more philosophically compatible with your future dojo than others. Peter's post in General/Aikido Books is good:

--snip--

Two options. Do a search for old threads or go to Books in the Databases section (look to your left) and read the reviews.

In any case my advise is stay away from books until you've been on the mat for a few months, then read only what your teacher recommends for the first year and then, if readings your thing, explore.

__________________

Peter Rehse Shodokan Aikido

--snip--

In any case, technical books and videos are of no practical use to you until you have been trained how to SEE what is being performed in front of you. Just beginning to see will take you months on the mat. Be patient, be careful, most of all, be under the personal instruction of an expert.

John Boswell
02-28-2004, 10:14 AM
Hey Jack,

If money is the issue for you to start aikido, why not just go watch some classes?

Some instructors will give you a free intro course or class. Some will have no problem with you just watching on the sidelines.

If aikido is as big of a crack addiction as your letting on, I'd do whatever I could to meet the people involved, hang out with them during class, get a free intro, go watch seminars and camps, anything and everything you can think of until classes actually start for you.

Try not to get anything to "engrained" just yet. Use this time to find the right dojo, instructor, sempai, atmosphere, etc. Learn where you wanna go and what that organization is all about. Use this time to get the terminology down, learn jo or bokken katas (they're out on the net). Stretch! Exercise your wrists and joints and limber up so that when everything comes together, you can hit the ground running and not have to slow down for the really BASIC basics!

Good luck on your adventure!! :D

aikilouis
02-28-2004, 01:33 PM
What to practice before proper aikido ?

Seiza.

PeterR
02-29-2004, 06:25 PM
What to practice before proper aikido ?

Seiza.
That was trite.

Jack Robertson
02-29-2004, 06:46 PM
There's been a new turn of events: )

If all goes well tomarrow, I'll be on the mat the DAY AFTER!!!!!!!!!!

Yeeee Haw!!!!!!

rachmass
02-29-2004, 06:57 PM
If I am not mistaken, you are going to train with Mike Sidebottom Sensei; correct? Please listen to him, and watch him carefully, as he knows what he's doing. Please go with an empty cup, as has been discussed before.

Best, Rachel

Jack Robertson
02-29-2004, 07:14 PM
If I am not mistaken, you are going to train with Mike Sidebottom Sensei; correct? Please listen to him, and watch him carefully, as he knows what he's doing. Please go with an empty cup, as has been discussed before.

Best, Rachel
Yep, I intend to go with an empty cup.

aikidoc
02-29-2004, 09:45 PM
Jack:

I echo the senior people here about learning from a book. The book you seem to be referring to is Best Aikido. This book needs an experienced aikikai instructor to interpret. Glad to hear you are finally getting to train. The book will serve you as a nice supplement, assuming you are studying hombu aikido. Otherwise, it might confuse you.

Jack Robertson
03-01-2004, 02:24 PM
I'm so excited.... I couldn't sleep last night............

JohnnyBA
03-03-2004, 09:59 AM
Jack:

So how did your first night go??

--John

Yo-Jimbo
03-03-2004, 12:53 PM
Jack,

My answer to your original question is that your omote irimi nage should have more entry in the direction of your partner's shikaku. Uke stepping back is natural ukemi if nage pushes them that way. (Wait a second, Peter said this in the first reply.)

While it is dangerous to assume that progress can't be made without formal instruction, reverse engineering anything is also generally more difficult. I'm reminded of a story of a captured warship that was copied so well that every replica had the same patch on the boiler. At this stage, the odds are on the side of practicing ukemi and balance/breathing drills when not being taught by an experienced instructor. (Now I find myself chanting with the chorus; I hate it when that happens.)

That being said, I say train however and whenever you can/feel like it. We all gain bad habits that we need to unlearn. I don't think most of mine stem from my first three months or even my first three years. (I'm beginning to think that my worst habits have been reinforced in the last three minutes.)

Then again I don't know Jack...

Jack Robertson
03-03-2004, 02:10 PM
Hi,

First night went GREAT!!!!

James Giles
03-04-2004, 12:58 AM
Hi,

First night went GREAT!!!!
Hey Jack,

Glad to hear you are taking classes. I am just a beginner myself, and I really am infatuated with Aikido like you are.

I have a lot of books and videos on Aikido also, and I have discovered that although it is virtually impossible to learn to correctly apply Aikido techniques from books and videos, they have helped me a lot with learning and memorizing the names of techniques, stances etc.

As for iriminage, I am just now being exposed to that technique. I am learning shomenuchi iriminage. I am having a very difficult time getting it down, but my Sensei tells me it can take years to develop skill with iriminage (and all Aikido techniques for that matter!).

There are so many subtle movements within each technique that can't be detected in a book or a video. That is why it is a real blessing to have a dojo and a good Sensei to show you the ropes. I am glad that you found a place to train because it sounds like you are as hooked on Aikido as I am - it really is great stuff!

wendyrowe
03-18-2004, 10:17 AM
Jack,

Now that you've been in class for a couple weeks, what do you think?

You haven't posted since the start, so I've been wondering how things are going.

Kensai
03-19-2004, 05:21 PM
As I understand it,

You enter off center line,

Close down with the close hand and wait for the tsuki to pass you, then with that same hand make the throw and have the other hand on the shoulder.

Jack Robertson
03-19-2004, 08:35 PM
Wendy,

For the first week, the techniques just went in one ear and out the other. My partners were very patient and helped me out a ton!

On the 2nd week it was kind of the same. I was still having a lot of trouble doing the techniques.

On the third week, I missed monday and tuesday classes because it snowed, and I didn't want my dad to drive in it.

I just finished the last class of the 3rd week. I think I have a little bit more of an idea of what I'm doing now. Though, I still have difficulty with many techniques, Sensei is very helpful.

Qatana
03-19-2004, 09:26 PM
Sounds just about right! keep training (and don't fret about missing classes)

Kensai
03-20-2004, 07:48 AM
It doesnt get any easier for ages....

Just when you feel you have an idea about a technique, Uke ups the tempo and it all changes....

But just stay on the mat and the answers well come (apparently :S)

p00kiethebear
03-22-2004, 02:12 PM
it's the 20 year throw, practice it for twenty years, then come askin' for help ;)

j0nharris
03-23-2004, 09:35 AM
.... just stay on the mat and the answers well come (apparently :S)
I try to stay on the mat, but Sensei keeps saying, "Get up and come again!" :p

shihonage
03-23-2004, 02:02 PM
it's the 20 year throw, practice it for twenty years, then come askin' for help ;)
One more time I hear this nonsense, I'm going to pour a plate of borsch on that person's head.

Nick Simpson
03-24-2004, 07:55 AM
I thought I had it down pretty well after roughly 15 months and then we had to change some aspects of it for grading style/"now you know it like that, this is the right way to do it that I expect of a senior student". Caused me no end of frustration for a few months ;) But man, it's a lovely technique when you nail some one with it!