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argengon
02-19-2004, 07:07 AM
Hi,
I have a dout, in aikido teach about how to use the bokken, but want to know about the katana, if it is a real sword o a sword of wood. I refer to the samurai sword.
The only sword is the bokken (that's made of wood) or also is teh katana that is made of metal?

Sorry for my ingles in firsth time, and thanks you for read this.

Salute

Yann Golanski
02-19-2004, 08:50 AM
Katana are swords made of metal. Generally they have a sharp edge. However, others have a blunt edge and are used for training.

A bokken is a safer version of a katana since it is made of wood.

Jack Robertson
02-19-2004, 08:55 AM
If you know how to use a bokken, you know how to use a katana. We practice with bokken because they are safer.

akiy
02-19-2004, 09:29 AM
If you know how to use a bokken, you know how to use a katana.
I disagree. I've seen plenty of people who have trained only with bokuto in an aikido context go up with a shinken (live blade) for tameshigiri (test cutting through rolled up tatami mat covers or bamboo), only to have their hasuji (blade angle) off or use too much strength so that they basically just knock over the target.

Even in the few times in which I've done tameshigiri and watched good kenjutsu folks, I can see that there's a lot that's missing in using just bokuto.

-- Jun

Yann Golanski
02-19-2004, 09:36 AM
Does anyone know how Aikiken compares to Kenjujitsu or Kendo? Anyone cross-training cares to join in?

(Yes, I do have an opinion but it's based on very little training in either kendo or kenjujitsu so I'd rather keep quiet. *shocker*)

Brian Vickery
02-19-2004, 10:11 AM
Does anyone know how Aikiken compares to Kenjujitsu or Kendo? Anyone cross-training cares to join in?
Hello Yann,

Well, I've crossed trained in Shinkendo, which is different than kendo in that a live blade is used for tameshigiri (target cutting), battoho (drawing & resheathing), and suburi (individual cutting practice), and bukuto/bokken is used during tachiuchi (paired sparing). It's my experience that aikiken techniques are only appropriate for use in aikido practice, like tachiwaza (sword taking techniques). An aikidoka wouldn't last a second against a shinkendoka during tachiuchi, and the aikidoka would not be able to use any of his tachiwaza techniques, he'd be cut to ribbons.

Aikiken is ok for what it's intended for, to improve your aikido skills, but it's a far cry from being even close to actual swrdsmanship!

...but that's just my opinion ...I'd suggest anyone truly interested in swordsmanship to go give it a try themselves!

PS: Tameshigiri is truly a BLAST!!! ...if you ever get the chance to try it, go for it!!!

MikeE
02-19-2004, 11:11 AM
Brian, I too have trained in Shinkendo and a few other sword ryuha.

You sound like you are parroting Obata Sensei. I agree most modern Aikido uses the sword as a training tool to see where taijutsu originates, or give a reference for energy.

I think that Aikiken infused with the idea of striking first and to kill, can be just as effective as any sword art. It usually comes down to the practitioner. True, in Aikido we train less for killing and more for control with our tachiwaza, but, if need be, a good Aikidoka who trains diligently would hold his own.

I agree totally on tameshigiri. I teach it at my schools as a form of tanren.

Rich Babin
02-19-2004, 11:34 AM
True, in Aikido we train less for killing and more for control with our tachiwaza, but, if need be, a good Aikidoka who trains diligently would hold his own.

Several of us in our dojo have been doing Iaido and Battodo for years. I think it may be dojo specific. Most aikiken seems to me to be used for learning timing, distance and Zanshin, not as a sword art in its own right. Aikiken is certainly similar to some kenjutsu but it is not like using a live blade. On the other hand kendo and iaido are not like fighting a battle with a sword either.

At least in Aikikai circles, more emphasis is being placed in two man kumitachi with bokken. They can certainly be done with real blades too, but not as safely.

Jack Robertson
02-19-2004, 11:51 AM
I disagree. I've seen plenty of people who have trained only with bokuto in an aikido context go up with a shinken (live blade) for tameshigiri (test cutting through rolled up tatami mat covers or bamboo), only to have their hasuji (blade angle) off or use too much strength so that they basically just knock over the target.

Even in the few times in which I've done tameshigiri and watched good kenjutsu folks, I can see that there's a lot that's missing in using just bokuto.

-- Jun
I see your point Jun. I agree, there is a difference between the live blade and the wooden sword. But I think there's just a little getting used to it, that needs to be done.

I think if you gave someone with no sword training experience a live blade and you gave someone, who trained with a bokken, a live blade, the one who trained with the bokken would be a better swordsman.

Gabriel A
02-19-2004, 12:05 PM
I noticed that there is a difference in the bokken used in aikido and Iaido. Is it ok to use either one?

Regards

Gabriel

Brian Vickery
02-19-2004, 12:51 PM
You sound like you are parroting Obata Sensei.
Mike,

Yah, I guess training in Obata Sensei organization for 12 years has had a strong influence on my training & views of both aikido & shinkendo, but I was responding with my own experiences when it comes to swordsmanship, rather than just mimicing my instructor views.

..and granted, a very, VERY highly skilled aikidoka would be able to do some sort of tachiwaza against an average swordsman (...although I'd just suggest doing some sort of tai sabaki to avoid from getting cut, then just running away!) ...but thank God in these days that will never be put to the test!

I've also done some training in Toyama-Ryu, which to me, seemed closer to aikiken then Shinkendo, but that was just my take on it!

Regards,

Brian Vickery
02-19-2004, 01:57 PM
I think if you gave someone with no sword training experience a live blade and you gave someone, who trained with a bokken, a live blade, the one who trained with the bokken would be a better swordsman.
Hi Jack,

Well, neither one of them would be a "swordsman" by any means ...*LOL*..and they'd probably just kill each other ...which might be the outcome if they actually were both trained swordsmen anyway...kind of like discussing who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee or the Green Power Ranger, you know what I mean?!?!

Rich Babin
02-19-2004, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE="Gabriel Arias (Gabriel A)"]I noticed that there is a difference in the bokken used in aikido and Iaido. Is it ok to use either one?

I'm not aware of any difference. Getting a bokken that fits you and is strong enough to take a lick is all that is important.

Chris Li
02-19-2004, 02:33 PM
I think if you gave someone with no sword training experience a live blade and you gave someone, who trained with a bokken, a live blade, the one who trained with the bokken would be a better swordsman.
I can't count the times that I've seen people trained with bokken in Aikiken have real trouble cutting when given live blades - two many ingrained bad habits. OTOH, I've seen many first timers cut with no problems at all - just set them up and tell them what to do.

What it comes down to, I think, is that most people training (and teaching) Aikiken with bokken have very little idea what they're doing in terms of swordsmanship.

Best,

Chris

kironin
02-19-2004, 04:18 PM
I can't count the times that I've seen people trained with bokken in Aikiken have real trouble cutting when given live blades - two many ingrained bad habits. OTOH, I've seen many first timers cut with no problems at all - just set them up and tell them what to do.
I have to say that has been exactly my experience also. Just the most recent example that comes to mind was iaido camp this past August. Beginners after a little basic instruction did a beautiful job of cutting.

and again last night I was watching two iai students of mine do cuts. One is a sandan in another style of Aikido who has extensive experience in practicing Aikiken and is still fighting some atrocious habits after over a year of training in Iaido. The the other began with me when he was about 3rd kyu in that other style of Aikido. He did not have the habits and it shows.



Craig

MikeE
02-19-2004, 09:27 PM
Brian,

In my experience, I've found that someone who is interested in sword will often step outside of Aikiken (like myself) to get a deeper understanding of kenjutsu.

Also, I see alot of Toyama-ryu in Shinkendo. In fact, if I am not mistaken Obata Sensei says the roots of Shinkendo are found in Toyama-ryu (I'll have to check my copy of Samurai Aikjutsu) but, I think I paraphrase correctly.

BTW, when I say tachi-waza, I'm talking about cutting in tachiuchi, as well as, grappling. Lord knows I wouldn't want to try to grab a guy with a 3 foot razor blade.

Brian, you should check out budowear.com

Pretty cool Daisho shirt.

Brian Vickery
02-20-2004, 07:33 AM
Brian,

Also, I see alot of Toyama-ryu in Shinkendo. In fact, if I am not mistaken Obata Sensei says the roots of Shinkendo are found in Toyama-ryu (I'll have to check my copy of Samurai Aikjutsu) but, I think I paraphrase correctly.
Mike,

You are correct sir! Obata Kaiso developed Shinkendo after many years of training in Toyama-ryu. Toyama-ryu is fun to practice, especially for someone like myself who is primarily interested in studying aikido, due to it's limited curriculum as compared to Shinkendo. My instructor used Toyama-ryu to get dan-ranked aikido students to study the sword more in depth, to take them beyond what aikiken had to offer. And once those students got the tameshigiri "bug", it was hard not to want to cross train in Shinkendo! I don't know if it's just me, but tameshigiri is VERY addictive!!!

Brian Vickery
02-20-2004, 07:50 AM
If you know how to use a bokken, you know how to use a katana. We practice with bokken because they are safer.
Hello Jack,

You know, I had practiced with a bokken for years before I started cross training in Shinkendo, and I thought the same thing you do about using a live blade, but I came to find out that there's a HUGE difference between the two ...the weight, the balance, just the 'feel' of the blade in my hands! But the biggest difference came when it was time to resheath the blade, pretending to resheath a bokken into your empty left hand is just child's play when compared to putting a real katana back into its saya!!! ...try it some time!

Brion Toss
02-20-2004, 09:20 AM
Hello,

My experience has been mostly with Aikiken, but I have done a little bit of cross-training with other styles, and what I've seen is at odds with most of the above postings. Certainly Aikiken is primarily a way to develop Aikido principles, not for sword fighting, but it seems to be a sound art in itself.

Perhaps other correspondents have encountered less-skillful practitioners -- or perhaps I have! -- but there doesn't appear to be anything intrinsically inferior about Aikiken, at least in regard to bokken use.

As for cutting, that practice must surely inform one's bokken use, but again, this isn't the core of the art; any ryu practitioner unaccustomed to cutting is unlikely to cut well, and likely to need re-education.

Tachi uchi, actual sparring is such a wide-open experience that it would seem difficult to make generalizations about it. Invariably, you're likely to descend into a style-vs-style debate. Much better, I think, to seek out friendly practitioners of other styles, for constructive comparison and mutual evolution. Sparring can happen too, but the context will be less rivalry-inclined. There is, for instance, a very experienced sword person in my weapons class. He is very generous with his perspective, offering variant techniques, tactics, and strategy that complement our curriculum. And he keeps attending because Aikiken has something to offer him.

Finally, tachiwaza is a long-odds art, no matter what style one is facing, which is precisely why it is so valuable a practice. If Shinkendo,or any other art, has attacks that are harder to perform takeaways on, then that is a good art to practice with.

Yours,

Brion Toss

kironin
02-20-2004, 05:12 PM
Finally, tachiwaza is a long-odds art, no matter what style one is facing, which is precisely why it is so valuable a practice. If Shinkendo,or any other art, has attacks that are harder to perform takeaways on, then that is a good art to practice with.
I think sometimes it's not emphasized just how long the odds are. I have never seen any aikido tachiwaza that didn't require some assumption of a mistake in the basics that a competent swordsman is pretty unlikely to ever make.

I am reminded of the story of O-Sensei and the marksman that was summarized on another thread.
Shortly after O'Sensei performed his "Bullet dodging" feat; he was challenged by a master Japanese shooter; whose name I cannot remember. As the story goes; when the man readied and raised his weapon; Ueshiba raised his hand; said "Stop!" and conceded; saying essentially, "I cannot beat a man who aims before he raises his weapon."

Idiots are another matter of course and a student of mind who is a police officer did one time end up taking away a sharp HSN blue ninja whatever special from a nut case. Saved his partner at the time from being cut and saved he nut case from being shot most likely to death. He didn't have time to think about the wisdom of doing it.

Craig

otto
02-20-2004, 09:05 PM
Agree with Jun..

I havent had the lucky chance to try cutting with a live blade yet , but according to what i've saw during bokken practice and what ive read about proper cutting technique with a katana...I would say the problem is that most Aikidoka tend to "cut" instead of "slice" while doing waza...

So it makes plenty of sense that when trying a live blade against a cutting target "I" will probable knock it off rather than cutting it....

yours in AiKi

argengon
03-06-2004, 03:57 PM
Thanks you to everyone, im very glad to read all yours replys and i understand all that you wrote.

And i have learn some things more.

Thanks!

Robert Cowham
03-12-2004, 05:43 AM
I agree that there is a quite a bit of difference between a katana and a bokken. A katana is a lot more challenging than a bokken and requires a well developed tanden in my experience.

It also depends on the size and weight of the bokken and what you do with it though. We practise KSR as taught by Inaba sensei. KSR bokken have to survive frequent clashing in some kata, and so are straight and quite heavy in comparison to many aiki bokken. This changes their nature and brings them closer to a katana in my experience. (Because they are heavier you tend to learn better how to move your body in order to move the bokken).

The key thing I find with kenjutsu is that people often take a while to become aware of how inaccurate their cut is in terms of the position of the blade and back of the weapon at all points during the cut. It usually takes a while to get the weapon moving in a flat plane as opposed to some curvy 3-d trajectory - which would result in getting stuck in tameshigiri, quite apart from being less efficient.

My one go at tameshigiri was a lot of fun!

Robert

Mark Uttech
03-18-2004, 06:35 AM
After a few years of training with bokken, I bought a katana set- both long and short swords. After practicing with them outside on my farm for awhile, it dawned on me that "swordsman, or samurai play is a strange fantasy" So I put the katanas away and went back to the bokken (again, both long and short) Here I found a study of natural body movement intriguing, especially out in the woods, on uneven ground, in all sorts of weather. There is no end to this sort of personal study. It is especially useful when practicing with a jo on uneven ground out in the woods. No offense to anyone intended, this is my practice experience. In gassho.

kung fu hamster
03-18-2004, 08:09 AM
Hi,

Ive got a question for those of you who have done tameshigiri. In the past I think I remember being told that the power of the cut/slice should be focussed/extended into the tip of the sword, since if you were cutting flesh, a long shallow cut (2-3 deep?) will suffice to do the job. Would you say its the same feel in tameshigiri, or is that more of a power slice with the pressure exerted/applied throughout the length of the sword from hilt to tip?

Brian Vickery
03-18-2004, 10:03 AM
Hi,

In the past I think I remember being told that the power of the cut/slice should be focussed/extended into the tip of the sword, since if you were cutting flesh, a long shallow cut (2-3 deep?) will suffice to do the job.
When you cut with a sword, the tip should lead the cut, primarily to generate enough blade speed to pass completely thru the target cleanly. You're NOT trying to just make a 2"-3" deep cut in the target. If you lead the cut with your hands, instead of the tip, you will NOT generate enough blade speed to cleanly cut thru the target, the blade instead will 'bite' into the taget, flattening out the angle of your cut & get stuck.

kung fu hamster
03-25-2004, 01:37 PM
Hi Brian,

thank you for your helpful reply, it gave me a lot of food for thought (I've never done tameshigiri but I would like to try it some day). I have another question, wondering since you have done training in other sword arts, do any of those ryu have kata which are intended as 'sacrifice' kata? Meaning, you practice executing the technique knowing that the end result would be that you would cut the other guy but lose your own life in the process... in other words, draw your blade and go to your 'glorious death'...? Just curious.

arderljohn
05-14-2004, 01:10 AM
the differences between the Katana and bokken is the weigth in each of them. if you practice long time in katana then suddenly change it to bokken there will slightly problem you will might be little bit confused how to hold properly. or its the same in bokken. Practice makes perfect...repetition is the only solution and concentration. :)

PaulieWalnuts
05-14-2004, 01:40 AM
The original Aikiken that Osensei let has nothing to do with japanese swordsmanship or sword arts it is completely independent. Aikiken only represents taijutsu thats what it was desgined for. The founder was a sword master when he realised that the techs in his art could be so related to the movments in ken/jo. He spent years in Iwama working on the rei between ken/jo/taijutsu in the end his final result was the art he felt was worth being called Aikido/Takemsu Aiki.
Although many students and teachers do incorparate other martial sword and jo arts in to there aikido taijutsu for different reasons. Some because they never got to see or practice the Iwama system from Osensei and felt that the rei would still be there, which im sure it is.

Remember when doing ken think taijutsu/ when doing taijutsu think ken. there is no difference in the body movments as All of Aikido was designed around this approach.

aikitim23
06-10-2004, 11:47 AM
I disagree. I've seen plenty of people who have trained only with bokuto in an aikido context go up with a shinken (live blade) for tameshigiri (test cutting through rolled up tatami mat covers or bamboo), only to have their hasuji (blade angle) off or use too much strength so that they basically just knock over the target.

Even in the few times in which I've done tameshigiri and watched good kenjutsu folks, I can see that there's a lot that's missing in using just bokuto.

-- Jun

this is true, i began some iaido training and it has been amazing how bad my cuts were and how much they have improved, that whoosh is soooo satisfying.... :p

:ai:
:ki:
T
I
M
2
3

Chuck.Gordon
06-11-2004, 12:20 PM
I think if you gave someone with no sword training experience a live blade and you gave someone, who trained with a bokken, a live blade, the one who trained with the bokken would be a better swordsman.

Not necessarily. Some folks who use a bokuto (bokken to you gendai types) learn some very bad habits that make it hard to teach proper sword ...

No, really.

Aikiken is a great tool for refining your aikido, but never assume it's actually got anything to do with using a live blade.

Chuck

Chuck.Gordon
06-11-2004, 12:25 PM
Would you say it's the same feel in tameshigiri, or is that more of a power slice with the pressure exerted/applied throughout the length of the sword from hilt to tip?

Depends on what you are doing. The primary cutting portion of the sword is the monouchi, pretty much the distal third of the blade. However, there are other instances wherein the proximal third is used (generally in close-in proximity), and in some cases you want to draw the blade quite deeply.

An inch-deep cut across the torso works great, but if you want to remove an arm, you need a slightly different approach ...

Chuck

philipsmith
06-14-2004, 04:32 AM
If you want to see how Aikiken relates to "real" sword work try some Tamaeshi-giri (test cutting).

Most Aikidoka cannot succesfully cut through a straw target whereas most Iai-doka can. Perhaps that says something about the relative cutting abilities of the two disciplines.

Gareth Hinds
06-14-2004, 11:05 AM
If one wishes to try tameshigiri, and one does not have convenient access to any schools that practice it, what does one need in order to set it up oneself? Some cutting mats, a steel katana, and someone who knows the proper technique? anything else? Are there any good books or videos on the subject?

Chris Li
06-14-2004, 11:24 AM
If you want to see how Aikiken relates to "real" sword work try some Tamaeshi-giri (test cutting).

Most Aikidoka cannot succesfully cut through a straw target whereas most Iai-doka can. Perhaps that says something about the relative cutting abilities of the two disciplines.

I disagree with that - I ran into many, many iaido and even koryu kenjutsu students in Japan who couldn't cut well in tameshi-giri. Basically, the people who cut well in tameshi-giri are the people who practice tameshi-giri, whether they be from Aiki-ken or Shinto Katori Ryu.

That being said, I wouldn't characterize either iaido or tameshi-giri as "real" swordwork, although they are both good technical exercises.

Best,

Chris

George S. Ledyard
06-14-2004, 04:23 PM
If you want to see how Aikiken relates to "real" sword work try some Tamaeshi-giri (test cutting).

Most Aikidoka cannot succesfully cut through a straw target whereas most Iai-doka can. Perhaps that says something about the relative cutting abilities of the two disciplines.

Tameshigiri is to combat sword fighting what board breaking is to empty hand fighting.

PeterR
06-15-2004, 04:58 AM
Tameshigiri is to combat sword fighting what board breaking is to empty hand fighting.
Hi George - well first it doesn't hurt as much.

My first experience with Tameshigiri - I still cringe at the photo - was actually quite successful. At the time I had next to no weapons exposure (Shodokan tanto excepted) knowing at most how to hold a sword and that it wasn't a baseball bat. It was made clear to me that it is a slice rather than a hit and I was supposed to use the last six inches or so of the blade.

I stood up - took a bit of time adjusting ma ai - and die ninja scum. Hey so I have an imagination - shoot me. In the dozen or so times I did it that afternoon, with a few notable exceptions, I improved rapidly (always managed the cut). Unfortunately the one photo taken was one of those less stellar times - posture was a bit reachy. That coupled with the fact that it was outside on a cold winter day so you see me in the fashionable dogi and leather jacket look. The short dogi pants were accentuated by socks and black shoes with the whole ensemble topped off with a woolly cap.

My friend came along and looked much better. Cute, sexy, Japanese female, in knee high boots and a sharp sword. In a word hot.

Since then I spent some time doing TSKR kata via the Sugano heresy and I really must say that the feel of that training is not different from my Aikido training. If anything the times I've trained with Koryu folks its been more relaxed than my regular training.

Just my experiences.

Don_Modesto
06-15-2004, 12:00 PM
My first experience with Tameshigiri - I still cringe at the photo....you see me in the fashionable dogi and leather jacket look. The short dogi pants were accentuated by socks and black shoes with the whole ensemble topped off with a woolly cap.

My friend came along and looked much better. Cute, sexy, Japanese female, in knee high boots and a sharp sword. In a word hot.

Upload the SECOND picture.

Kent Enfield
06-15-2004, 03:54 PM
Upload the SECOND picture.That would be the one below, right?

http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/1999_japan/pics/japan07.jpg

PeterR
06-15-2004, 06:51 PM
Ah memories.

The picture doesn't do her justice. The one of me on the other hand is just about right.

kironin
06-16-2004, 01:28 AM
Ah memories.

The picture doesn't do her justice. The one of me on the other hand is just about right.


"knee high boots and a sharp sword. In a word hot."

:hypno:

You are killing me here!

Craig

Ron Tisdale
06-16-2004, 08:50 AM
Ok, clicking on that link and seeing the aikiweb logo was WAY disappointing!

Ron :)

Chuck.Gordon
06-16-2004, 09:19 AM
Look here:

http://www.aikido-l.org/seminars/1999_japan/pics/index.html

Chuck

Ron Tisdale
06-16-2004, 10:20 AM
Hmmm...

Thanks Chuck! Anyone want to comment on the cutting form of aikidoka? My own pics show many of the same weaknesses (and specifically in my case, the overuse of strength)...

Ron (way too embarrased to post MY pic...)

akiy
06-16-2004, 10:37 AM
Anyone want to comment on the cutting form of aikidoka?
Personally, I've seen really crappy cutting form and I've seen superb form in aikido folks who have tried tameshigiri. In the same way, I've seen aikido people who, in their first time trying tameshigiri, managed to knock the target over, send it flying, or get their sword stuck; I've also witnessed aikido people who, in their first time trying tameshigiri, sliced right through without any problems.

In other words, I think all of this really depends on the manner of aikido "swordwork" learned by the aikido practitioner...

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
06-16-2004, 11:13 AM
Well, I wasn't referring to NOT cutting through...more to the form EVEN THOUGH the target was cut. In the style I tried, the goza is *set* on the stand...there is no spike to hold it in place. For the most part, I still succeeded in cutting the target...but my *form* was still for crap, from a sword work basis...even an aikidoka ( :) ) could see my hands going one way, my shoulders tense, my waist another way, my hips yet another (we'll stop now, before I embarrass myself even more...).

Ron

kironin
06-16-2004, 12:57 PM
First off, I can see a lot to be critical of in my form and to improve from pictures but here is two action shots capturing a double cut I did. Would like to have pictures of how it looked when I cut throught double wrapped mats but I had no control over when pics were taken.

First lets start with getting rid of making fish faces!

:D

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=184&stc=1


http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=185&stc=1

Ron Tisdale
06-16-2004, 01:08 PM
oh man, if you can do it...lets see if I can get this scanned...

:)

Ron Tisdale
06-16-2004, 02:02 PM
Ok, let's see if this works...and beware the light shining off my bald head...the sun was pretty bright that day...

Ron :)

PeterR
06-16-2004, 06:38 PM
Pictures are terrible. They never capture the perfect pose.

In the series of pictures mentioned above one of the people is a sword guy (Peter Boylan) embarrassingly caught leaning forward.

I gave up analyzing Budo form from pictures long ago.

Ron Tisdale
06-17-2004, 08:58 AM
Thank god, then you don't see ANY of my flaws, right? :)

I still like to analyze my flaws from pics and vids, it helps me to focus on things to improve, and makes me somewhat more self aware. I'm sure there are negatives to that too...

The funny things is when you see newbies (like me) critiquing senior folk from pics on websites...there were a couple of non-sense threads like that on AJ for a while. But then there was the really long karate people with katana thread on e-budo...now THAT was funny!

Ron

kironin
06-17-2004, 09:43 AM
Thank god, then you don't see ANY of my flaws, right? :)
Ron

Just too many, where does one begin. :D

Like Peter said. it's very difficult to analyze pictures of others.
That picture is so late that I can't even be really sure what angle of cut you made or if you actually suceeded in cutting through. Doesn't look clean though. But that's fairly tough to do without a pegged mat while doing what looks like a crosscut.


I think it is worthwhile looking at pictures of yourself because you can remember how you felt. The picture can sometimes just confirm what you suspected or really motivate you to change because of how silly you look.

Craig

Ron Tisdale
06-18-2004, 07:57 AM
or really motivate you to change because of how silly you look. :) Yeah, that one! :)

I believe it was a horizontal cut (I forget the name of that particular stance and cut just now, though we do use it in the Doshinkan version of Hashugiri). I just about made it all the way through the goza, but the lack of focus or hasuji or something made the cut end in pushing the small amount of remaining fiber rather than cutting it. It didn't help that I over cut way past the target...this particular school focuses on never over cutting as it leaves great big whopping suki...kind of like the one you see above. :)

Ideally, even without the spike, the bottom piece after the cut should still be on the stand :) The instructor did that with all sorts of different cuts...some of the students managed it too. I don't think I ever did though...

Ron

kironin
06-18-2004, 10:02 AM
It didn't help that I over cut way past the target...this particular school focuses on never over cutting as it leaves great big whopping suki...kind of like the one you see above. :)


yes, in general and certainly for us, you never want to cut way past the target for the reason you give. One of the things you learn in iai is to cut with power but still leave yourself in a position to respond immediately if they successfully evade your cut. Horizontal cuts I find the most difficult to maintain proper hasugi. I wonder sometimes if I am fighting muscle memory from swinging a baseball bat a lot as a kid.

You are right not having a peg there for a good cut is more a mental issue. A peg makes it a little more easy to make multiple cuts on a single target though but it won't stop a bad cut from launching the target off the stand.

As to comparing test cutting to board breaking as mentioned earlier in this thread, it reminded me that while I was in Tokyo last November, I happened to catch an early morning show which was doing a news bit on a local club that was about 15 years old. It was like a gym and they all had shinken. The whole practice was test cutting of all sorts. Men and women (talk about babes with sharp swords!). As I recall they called what they do Toh-Do. It does sort of bring up the same image as would a karate dojo that only practiced board breaking.

best,
Craig

Ron Tisdale
06-18-2004, 10:30 AM
Ah...board breaking...."bowrds dont hit bock"...and neither do goza...:)

after I get more of a clue to the aiki-buki-waza taught where I train, I'm going to give iai a proper shot. I've always liked it (from my occational exposure), but can't seem to maintain the practice of each separately. Not to mention several friends now completely uninterested as far as aiki-ken goes after stints in iai. I'd like to avoid that myself.

I have an easier time keeping the daito ryu and aikido separate...although my teachers might not be as sure about that as I am... :)

Ron (really likes the chokes in Daito ryu... :crazy: )