PDA

View Full Version : Uke with large Ego


Please visit our sponsor:
 

AikiWeb Sponsored Links - Place your Aikido link here for only $10!


Jeanine Perron
02-11-2004, 09:48 PM
I need insight on how to handle an Uke that hurts me every time we work together. He hurts other students as well. He teaches American Karate and uses karate when he does randori and other Aikido movements. I have talked to him several times before about his need for more control. I am a 2nd Kyu while he is a 5th Kyu. Today, I got a elbow strike to my nose. I am tired of putting up with lack of control for 1 and 1/2 years. His ego is also as big as his testosterone.
What to do while maintaining my health and Aikido like temperament?

Thank you,

Jeanine :triangle:

Mark Jakabcsin
02-11-2004, 10:03 PM
Jeanine,

If you don't want to get hit in the nose move out of the way! It truly is that simple. The uke that you describe is really a treasure to be enjoyed. While he/she might cause you frustration from time to time enjoy the challenge. If you can learn to move, avoid, protect yourself and still complete the needed work you will be much better off. If that fails take advice form Don Angier 'kick him in the nuts, then apply aiki.'

mark

Amassus
02-11-2004, 10:22 PM
I think this is where cooperation is important in Aiki training. Sure, this guy is providing useful strikes to test aikido techniques on, but at what cost to his partners.

Aikido is a place to have fun and learn at the same time. Jeanine doesn't sound like she is having fun. Good strikes do not allow for an arrogant attitude either. If the guy can continue to give honest attacks but leave his ego off the mat, life would surely be easier.

The next step is to speak to the instructor of the club and voice your concern. Aikido to me is not just technique, but also attitude.

Nacho_mx
02-11-2004, 10:26 PM
Thereīs a lot in the aikido olī bag of tricks that you can use if you are willing. When you have trained regularly for some years, you begin to understand that when you take and control ukeīs balance, they are quite in a vulnerable position and open to all kind of harmful and possibly deadly responses (this is the part in which we work on our selfcontrol and compassion for others). Ocasionally it may be acceptable to spice your technique, to get your point across, specially if you are past talking sense to him. Of course if you donīt feel like exercising this option you can always excuse yourself from practicing with him.

Bronson
02-11-2004, 10:58 PM
Refuse to work with him. In aikido we learn to protect ourselves. Standing up for yourself and your safety by telling him and your sensei that you refuse to work with him does not fall outside an "aikido like temperment"

It's been said that aikido teaches the spirit of loving protection for all things. I'm pretty sure if you check that includes you ;)

Bronson

PeterR
02-11-2004, 11:26 PM
Just curious - what's the size difference?

If he's much bigger your dojo has a major problem.

Same size - you've got an opprotunity.

Much smaller - the problem is yours.

Only half way tongue in cheek.

stuartjvnorton
02-11-2004, 11:30 PM
I need insight on how to handle an Uke that hurts me every time we work together. He hurts other students as well. He teaches American Karate and uses karate when he does randori and other Aikido movements. I have talked to him several times before about his need for more control. I am a 2nd Kyu while he is a 5th Kyu. Today, I got a elbow strike to my nose. I am tired of putting up with lack of control for 1 and 1/2 years. His ego is also as big as his testosterone.

What to do while maintaining my health and Aikido like temperament?

Thank you,

Jeanine :triangle:
Has your sensei or senior students had a word to this guy about his lack of control?

Chris Li
02-11-2004, 11:46 PM
Refuse to work with him. In aikido we learn to protect ourselves. Standing up for yourself and your safety by telling him and your sensei that you refuse to work with him does not fall outside an "aikido like temperment"
That may or may not be necessary, but it's pretty much guaranteed to cause resentment. I've seen that kind of approach almost destroy dojos before.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's an "aikido like temperment"? And why didn't Morihei Ueshiba require one from people like Sadateru Arikawa (the 9th dan) while they were damaging people?

Best,

Chris

Bronson
02-12-2004, 12:07 AM
That may or may not be necessary, but it's pretty much guaranteed to cause resentment. I've seen that kind of approach almost destroy dojos before.

I'm almost afraid to ask, but what's an "aikido like temperment"? And why didn't Morihei Ueshiba require one from people like Sadateru Arikawa (the 9th dan) while they were damaging people?

Best,

Chris
I can see how what you describe can happen but I've also seen it work the other way. We've got a guy who was like this. After nobody wanted to work with him and he was left standing on the mat without a partner a few times he got the point.

As for the "aikido like temperment"--I quoted it from the original post. Not exactly sure what it would entail myself ;)

Bronson

Williamross77
02-12-2004, 12:31 AM
well........

i would say that you could partner up and the moment you had the oppertunity punch him in the throut, just so he got your perspective. this is not un aiki, you should re harmonize him to the way. some times that means giving what you get. only if he is really bigger than you and the sensei has not done this first. but ultimatly if it were on the street he would need that Atemi to ditract his lack of control or aggression. do not become like him, make him become like you, maybe,,,

some will say that is not AIki, but you are there to harmonize and learn not to get beat up by some OUFe or how ever you spell it. protect yourself and one or two well placed knife strikes to the esophogus will even the field, i mean hey your no master yet you are allowed to make mistakes... IE "sorry i missed your shoulder are you ok?, just sit down and it will go away... so sorry i did it again, gosh i just need to learn more CONTROL don't you think?"

just dont kill him or do it in anger.he might identify with your plight. best of luck...

Williamross77
02-12-2004, 12:36 AM
oh yeah, 1 .5 years and still a Gokyu?

well don't be just like him, maybe ignoring him is the best way????????

i don't really know. when i see a student doing that to some other student i make them uke for me and put a litte fear into them, not bullying just fear. your sensei should handle this...

MaryKaye
02-12-2004, 01:43 AM
I think you can learn a lot faster, and a lot more safely, if you are not constantly at risk from your partner. In particular, learning difficult new moves seems to me to require trust--you'll have to be vulnerable while you're learning.

I was a crummy forward roller, took a long time to get it. One of the best moments of my aikido training was jumping a senior student at speed and having him throw me, with perfect control, at speed--I came up on my toes grinning from ear to ear. Best roll I'd ever done. Would never have happened if I'd been afraid of him or thought he would hurt me.

My advice would be to talk to sensei about this if you possibly can. It may just get you a lecture on how to protect yourself better (happened to me once) but that's useful too.

Mary Kaye

kironin
02-12-2004, 03:15 AM
And why didn't Morihei Ueshiba require one from people like Sadateru Arikawa (the 9th dan) while they were damaging people?

Best,

Chris
Just maybe because any wisdom he had was more hype than reality ?

some essays by Ellis come to mind.

Craig

kironin
02-12-2004, 03:49 AM
I need insight on how to handle an Uke that hurts me every time we work together. He hurts other students as well. He teaches American Karate and uses karate when he does randori and other Aikido movements. I have talked to him several times before about his need for more control. I am a 2nd Kyu while he is a 5th Kyu. Today, I got a elbow strike to my nose. I am tired of putting up with lack of control for 1 and 1/2 years. His ego is also as big as his testosterone.

What to do while maintaining my health and Aikido like temperament?

Thank you,

Jeanine :triangle:
I ran several responses over in my head, but as a teacher myself it keeps coming to where is your teacher in all of this ? I would feel pretty dissapointed if one of my students felt that they had to go to the internet rather than talk to me or that I hadn't taken care of such a situation long before a year had passed.

You talk about lack of control and ego, it's not clear whether you feel what he does is intentional or not.

If it's perceived as intentional, I can't imagine letting a new student intentionally hurt other students in my classes for a over a year. If a new student appears to be problem for other new students, he generally finds me as a partner until I feel I know what's his story and then some of my senior students and then the anyone. Nothing overt.

On the other side, if he is just being aggressive and a bit wild in his attacks and my 2nd kyu student is having trouble handling that I would want to look closely at what is going on.

It would be pretty stupid if it came down to kneeing someone in the nuts or overt refusals to practice with certain individuals in class. But I suppose that is going to happen as long as some think all there is to teaching class is to demo a technique several times quickly and then standback to let mayhem ensue for several minutes and then repeat.

Craig

Creature_of_the_id
02-12-2004, 04:39 AM
I'm a firm believer that you cant change other people, you can give them the opportunity to change and they can choose or not to choose to take that oportunity. but often they do not understand why they should.

But, one thing that you can change, is yourself.

in a case like this I believe you should ask yourself why he bothers you so much?

is it because he is highlighting problems in your technique when you would prefer to believe there are none?

there can be many reasons why it would bother you, but surely in trying to change him and his actions you are fighting against him.

where is the harmony in that?

why not find what it is inside you that is bothered by him and then change it? that way he can continue to do what he is doing and you have changed something inside you which either changes your technique and stops you getting hit or changes your beliefs and stops your ego from being bruised.

then there is no fighting of any sort, no one is hurt and the situation is resolved because you understand exactly what it is you do and do not have control over.

you have control over your own actions, movement and reactions within any given moment. Aikido teaches awareness of what you have control over in order to give you freedom of movement. You dont try and change the attack, you take what is given and choose your own course of action from the choices of technique available...

that was kinda long winded wasnt it :p

happysod
02-12-2004, 04:48 AM
Jeanine, does he attack everyone in the dojo the same way with the same intensity? If so, then why have none of dan grades tried to remove some of his tendencies to over aggression? If he only trains this way with the more senior students, I'd take it as a rather poor, back-handed compliment in that he believes you're capable of handling that level of aggression and work on making sure you protect yourself more.

Jeanine Perron
02-12-2004, 07:53 AM
To Mark Jakabcsin

"If you don't want to get hit in the nose move out of the way! It truly is that simple. The uke that you describe is really a treasure to be enjoyed"

Your first question should be: which technique are you doing? I was teaching this guy a Ushiro Ryokatatori Kaiten Iriminage. There was no way to avoid a hit with that close of a technique. We were the only two people in the room for practice. It is a special practice for those who want to excel. No one else showed up.

Retaliation should not be used on the mat. He has hit others in response to their aggressiveness. Yes, he is a hypocrite.

Jeanine

Jeanine Perron
02-12-2004, 08:18 AM
To answer some questions:

I am 112 pounds 5'4" in height and he is 5'8" and weighs around 225.

Does the instructor know about his aggressivness, I don not know yet? I have called a special meeting with the instructor today.

In fact, the more he hurts me, the more I become softer in my techniques with him. When he kicks (we are supoose to hold our hand out with a knife and let the person ligtly kick the knife out of our grasp), there is no way to avoid being kick. Others in the thread have responsed with "get out of the way". If I did that, then I would not be allowing the Uke to learn the technique. This guy kick my arm so hard that I felt stars and I had a bruise from the kick.

Jeanine Perron
02-12-2004, 08:34 AM
Ian,

There is only one other belt higher than me in this dojo.

Yes, he does treat me with more aggression. I have my thoughts on that as well. Off the mat, we are joking and talking. He brings his aggression to the mat.

For two years, I have studied solo with 3 black belt Aikido/Omei teachers before I came to this other dojo. I have never gotten hurt with con tolled techniques. Yet I was flying all around the room and being thrown in an Aikido style manner.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Jeanine

Jeanine Perron
02-12-2004, 08:54 AM
Craig and Mary,

Thanks for your response. I have scheduled a private meeting with my instructor today. I have been trying to handle this situation myself by emailing him, talking to him, and by showing him in techniques that one does not have to use muscle to perform a technique.

All has failed, so I wanted a students advice on how they might handled a bad Uke.

In the past with this Uke, when I have performed a technique swiftly and correctly without muscle and with control, he falls and complains about his arthritis and gets up and then muscles the next technique on me. I think in retaliation. In turn, I get hurt and ignore him as soon as possible. I think to "fight back" would not be a good idea.

He hates to be thrown and he complains about getting his wrist torqued. Bad Uke and bad Nage.

I hope all goes well in this meeting.

Thank you,

Jeanine

Ron Tisdale
02-12-2004, 09:41 AM
Sounds to me like you've got a bully and a whiner. Just from what you have said. Because of the size difference and his experience with another martial art, I don't believe escalation will work with him.

1) I would never train with that person without supervision...ever.

2) I would speak to the instructor privately about his behavior on the mat.

3) When training under supervision with him, work purely on form...no fast or hard technique untill the instructor resolves your problem.

One thing though...I think Mark is correct in that this uke's experience and power represent a huge opportunity for your dojo. Experienced folk from other arts do a lot to improve our technique in many ways. But bullying on the one hand, and whining on the other should not be tolerated.

Best of luck with this,

Ron

John Boswell
02-12-2004, 10:00 AM
Not only is that guy a bad Uke... he's a whiney baby. Your Sensei is the one that needs to explain the purpose of attacks during training: committed, but non-damaging.

It is for the Uke's protection, as well as your own (nage), that Uke's attack the way they do. Your Sensei MUST stress the importance of it all. If he doesn't like his wrist being torqued, then he's in the wrong martial art... or he's freaking RESISTING the ACCEPTENCE of the technique!

http://143.207.8.139/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000116

This is a link that may address some concerns you have.

Really, my only other piece of advice would be to A) Extend like you never have before and B) ATEMI! He comes in with an elbow to the face... punch him in the ribs. He kicks your hand way too hard? Pull back so that he kicks the knife and NOT your hand.

Your Sensei has TOTALLY got to take control of this situation. The fact that he hasn't noticed or been effective up till now is a red flag, imho. You need to seriously think about that as well. I have no idea who your instructor is, but it sounds like he needs to establish some serious authority and discipline in the dojo.

2 cents.

SeiserL
02-12-2004, 10:12 AM
IMHO, if you have already talked with him several times, simply respectfully bow and refuse to work with him. Be honest about why, his lack of control and to stick within the art being taught. Embarrassment can be a great motivator.

Talk with your Sensei. We had a gentleman who hurt several people in training and eventually Sensei asked them leave because it was a Dojo problem now.

Talk to your Sempai. As a senior student I feel it is part of my responsibility to facilitate a proper training environment for my kohai.

OTOH, you can learn about facing your own fears and being effective as tori/nage and uke by training with someone bigger and tougher. He may be an excellent training opportunity for you. Learn to blend and flow with his aggressiveness. While you are both a bit young in the art for that. Its an option.

happysod
02-12-2004, 10:37 AM
Pull back so that he kicks the knife and NOT your hand. Totally agree with an addendum, angle the blade slightly so the point is towards the attacking foot - if he cannot (or will not) control his attack, he will cause himself pain/damage.

Agree with the other "whiny bully" comments - if you are willing to cause pain, you must be willing to accept as much or more pain in return.

Williamross77
02-12-2004, 11:43 AM
hear hear!!

claim your space!

explain if he can't take it ,,,he should not give it.

your sensei should be his partner for a while.

Jeanine Perron
02-14-2004, 05:29 PM
Thank you for all the insights.

I talked to the Uke and he responded that he never knew he was hurting me. I guess lying on the floor with my hands over my nose, or holding my arm, breast, etc, in pain is not enough. He said that I need to slap him up side the face to let him know next time. HMM....

Yes, he is a challenge and that should not be overlooked. I should see the situation in a positive light. I will try harder to embrace that fact, but sometimes the pain overlooks that. I do no think of my self as a whimp. I had heart surgery, and was back in three weeks. I use to be on the rough side as well, due to my other Aikido training. His background in MA, like mine, sometimes gets in the way of performing Aikido. But I guess, on the streets, one has to be ready for any attack and attacker.

Jeanine

Chris Li
02-14-2004, 08:12 PM
Just maybe because any wisdom he had was more hype than reality ?

some essays by Ellis come to mind.

Craig
I don't think that Ellis ever said that his wisdom was more hype than reality. I think that what Ellis was saying was that peoples's usual conception of that wisdom was (and is often) different from the reality. In other words, what people think of as "an Aikido-like temperment" might well be different than what Morihei Ueshiba thought or permitted.

Best,

Chris

indomaresa
02-15-2004, 09:23 AM
refuse to train with him

sincerely say that you are worried about his arthritis and joints.

IF he said he could take it... you know what to do.... hehehheee

sanosuke
02-15-2004, 09:50 PM
Jeanine,

in aikido training both parties should learn from each other. If you can't learn from your partner although you already try, leave him.

Ron Tisdale
02-17-2004, 03:13 PM
I talked to the Uke and he responded that he never knew he was hurting me.
Good for you! Direct is usually best...and sometimes what we think is obvious isn't. I think you might have just gotten one of the best training partners ever. Just don't let him get away with that whining bit...

:)

Best of Luck,

RT

It occurs to me that my best friend and I used to hurt each other a lot when training. Somehow our aikido just didn't mesh...too competitive or something, I don't know. It looked like two bulls trying to occupy the same china shop. Several years down the road, and now he and I can train basically injury free...I'm sure part of the solution is that I'm no longer trying to be better than he is (I'm not). Not sure this helps any...

Jeanine Perron
02-18-2004, 07:55 AM
Hello Ron,

My thoughts are that this Uke must think that he needs to use muscle to overcome practice and knowledge. I have seen him "clothes line" a Shodan that is 6'5" and 250 pounds in Randori with a hand chop.

I have talked and sent emails to this Uke several times. His sensitivity to the outside needs some "tweaking". Isn't this part of what a good Aikidoist needs to be!

And your right, learning to work with some people takes time.

Thank you for your input,

Jeanine

Mark Jakabcsin
02-19-2004, 07:15 AM
"I have talked and sent emails to this Uke several times. His sensitivity to the outside needs some "tweaking". Isn't this part of what a good Aikidoist needs to be!"

All this focus on someone else. What they need to do. What they need to change. What they do wrong. What they need to accomplish to become a good aikidoist. Seems to me all this focus and energy would be better spent looking in instead of out.

mark

Kevin Masters
02-19-2004, 03:31 PM
oh yeah, 1 .5 years and still a Gokyu?
What's wrong with that? My dojo holds tests 2 times a year.

I'm glad you had it out with the guy, Jeanine. I hope the rest of your training is more enjoyable.

Kevin.

An 18 month old gokyu.

:p

Jeanine Perron
02-20-2004, 01:59 PM
Thank you Kevin,

In my old dojo, we held belt testing once a year. In my new school, it is twice a year. It is interesting to know how many hours others need to study before testing and moving on to the next belt.

I am still working with this Uke and the instructor now nows about the situation. In the past, I have let my guard done, but now I must remember to defend myself at all times. Good lesson to learn.

Jeanine

aikidocapecod
02-20-2004, 02:26 PM
After reading the original post, I thought back to a fellow aikidoka that was once in our class. Same issue. Big, strong, aggresive and also a student of another martial art.

After getting hit by him...let me tell you the evening stars on a clear night have never been that bright....I stood there hands behind my back and just looked at him. No word spoken. total eye contact. After a short period of time, Sensei came by asking why we were not practicing. I asked Sensei what I did incorrectly in my technique that allowed Uke to punch me full force in the face?

Sensei said, "you failed to partner with an Uke that has learned self control." He went on to stop class and apologize to the entire class for being such a bad Sensei. He said, If I had taught you all that aikido class is a place of learning and partnership and friendship, then one would not feel they had to strike, full force, their partner.

He then ended class......

Weeks later, the big strong aggressive guy who bruised his knuckles by smacking me in the face showed up again in class.

Humble...and the perfect partner...