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Paula Lydon
02-03-2004, 07:28 AM
~~Meaning? :D ~~

Thalib
02-03-2004, 07:53 AM
Tracing the old?

Ron Tisdale
02-03-2004, 08:03 AM
To reflect deeply upon the past...

Ron

ze'ev erlich
02-03-2004, 09:15 AM
The Kanji and the original meaning of the word "keiko" had deep and spiritual meaning.

However in everyday Japanese the word simply means: "practice; training".

Ze'ev.

Paula Lydon
02-03-2004, 04:42 PM
~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?

Thanks!

Don_Modesto
02-03-2004, 04:58 PM
~~Yes, 'training' is all I'd ever been told of this word. I am interested in this older meaning/intention; why and how did it change?
Probably the same way (as someone suggested on these boards recently) that practicing "Martial" arts doesn't imply worship of Mars. :)

If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.

Peter Goldsbury
02-03-2004, 05:34 PM
If you want to look into it more, do some TACHIYOMI at Borders in one of Draeger's trilogy (sorry, forget which one). He comments at some length on the difference between "KEIKO" and "RENSHU", roughly practice and training if I recall aright.
Hello Don,

The place you are thinking of is probably Chapter 4 ("The Method") in the "Classical Budo" volume, except that Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once. Basically, training is what you do until you attain the heights of the DOU level, after which it becomes practice.

It is a nice, romantic, chapter, similar in tone to what aikido teachers sometimes adopt over a beer after keiko/renshu, when they wax lyrical and spice the discourse with gnomic quotes from M Ueshiba. I have heard the Draeger chapter expounded a number of times so far, so please pardon my laid back tone.

The problem is that Draeger is of no value for distinguishing between 'keiko' and 'renshu'. Both terms can apply equally to all stages of the process he describes.

Best regards,

Thalib
02-03-2004, 07:28 PM
A shihan from Aikikai honbu dojo on his visit to Indonesia, during practice before yudansha test, was quite angry looking how most of us(Indonesians) were training/practice. I'm not going to go into the details.

One thing that he said made me think, "Everytime you go into the dojo to train... no it's not training... practice... no it's not practice either... it is keiko... it is tracing the old..."

P.S.: 3 periods (...) symbolizes pause... :p

Peter Goldsbury
02-04-2004, 02:18 AM
Here is some relevant information concerning ‘keiko’, ‘renshu’ and ‘kenshu’ from the ‘Nihon Kokugo Daijiten’. In all cases the meanings are given, together with the earliest references given in the dictionary. I have added a few notes and comments, but I apologize that time commitments have prevented an English translation. I leave that to the Japanese experts in this forum.

Keiko

稽古

1. 古事を考えて、物事のかつてあったあり方とこれからあるべき姿とを正確に知ること。

三代格−十七・弘仁十三年(822)三月二十六日・太政官符

2. 書を読んで学問すること。また、学んだところを復習すること。学問。学習。

三代格−一・弘仁格序(830)

3. 修業。練習。特に武術、芸能などについていうことが多い。

平治(1220頃か)上・信頼信西不快の事

4. 修行の功を積んで、学識や才能がすぐれていると高く評価されること。

花園天皇宸記−元応二年(1320)九月二日

5. 特に、刻苦勉励して古事につくという意を強めていう。

名月記−承元元年(1207)十一月八日

Note: The connection with ancient learning, probably Chinese learning & the rote learning of ancient texts, is quite strong and the earliest reference to keiko as training in the martial arts is for 1220, which is, quite appropriately, in the middle of the Kamakura bakufu.

Renshu

練習

学問や技芸などを繰り返し学習すること。また、一定の作業を反復して、その技術を身に つけること。

明衡往来(mid-11C)

Note: The reference here to internalization by repetition is noteworthy, whether in scholarship or the arts.

Kenshu

研修

学問や技芸などを、みがきおさめること。また、ある職域で、職業上必要な知識や技能を 高める職員を一定期間教育することやそのため講習という。

黒い眼と茶色の目(1914)

Note: This is quite different from the other two and has the connotation of honing a skill or undertaking special training for a particular purpose.

Best regards,

Don_Modesto
02-04-2004, 01:22 PM
Draeger does not mention the words 'keiko' and 'renshu' even once.
You're right. I obviously interpolated the Jpn terms.

Thanks for the detailed post on the two terms.

Tatiana
08-25-2004, 03:30 PM
It depends on the kanji. It can be a girl's name (in fact, before I found this forum, That was the only way I knew it... hehe)

It is kind of like training, but there is a more spiritual connotation (I think). For regular sports, like baseball, you would say renshu. It could also mean practise, or to reflect deeply on the past...

稽古 KEIKO. This is a compound word composed of
(1) 稽 The 大字源 Daijigen gives 'kanga(eru)' and 'todo(meru)' as readings for this word. There are several basic meanings: to think or dispute, to stop, and to bow low. The Chinese-derived reading (from ji / qi) is KEI. This is combined with:
(2) 古 furu(i), inishie, meaning old or ancient times. The Chinese-derived reading (from gu) is KO and the combination gives KEI-KO, which means to consider or contemplate ancient matters and by transference, to pursue scholarship, academic learning, or other training.

saltlakeaiki
08-25-2004, 03:39 PM
Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this :D When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat :D

akiy
08-27-2004, 12:55 AM
Hi David,
Tatiana, you threw me for a loop with this :D When I saw your last post, in the "shin" thread, I categorized you in my mind as a non-Japanese-speaker, and then you pull this out of your hat :D
It looks like Tatiana was merely quoting other people on the AikiWeb Forums:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=71398&postcount=3
http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showpost.php?p=71600&postcount=6

Tatiana, please do follow basic netiquette and let us know when you're quoting others... Thanks.

-- Jun

Ron Tisdale
08-27-2004, 07:17 AM
I like that phrase "to trace the old"...seems to convey a little something extra. Thanks all for the contributions.

Ron