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Erik
01-11-2004, 04:16 PM
I asked this question on another board but it got lost in the process.

To those of you who practice irimi nage with a collar grab as the dominate method, what happens when there is no collar to grab? And, why not practice it with the assumption that there won't be a collar to grab?

Hanna B
01-11-2004, 04:37 PM
Depending on the style of iriminage, while holding ukes neck you can put a lot of stress on it and risk injury. Because of this, grabbing the clothes instead of the body in my mind is a measure taken for security.

sanosuke
01-11-2004, 07:31 PM
I asked this question on another board but it got lost in the process.

To those of you who practice irimi nage with a collar grab as the dominate method, what happens when there is no collar to grab? And, why not practice it with the assumption that there won't be a collar to grab?
i never grab the collar, instead i prefer to hold uke's head close to my chest. for me it's easier to control uke that way.

Noel
01-11-2004, 08:31 PM
Can't help you Erik, I was always taught to do the 'hold the head' method cited above. My (lack of) control issues, mostly.

BTW, I saw Sugano sensei demonstrate a really vicious way to make uke do a face-plant from a collar grab.

rachmass
01-12-2004, 07:54 AM
Erik, I was taught to do the collar grab, and have now been told to hold the shoulder or head. Although I feel the collar grab is more effective, the shoulder or head works quite well indeed (although I worry about twisting the neck too much with the head). The collar grab allows a bit more of a torque in the opposite direction, rather sweeping the feet out from uke, but the head is very controlling. The shoulder is the most difficult for me.

Ron Tisdale
01-12-2004, 08:47 AM
Hi Eric, I replied on e-budo. Your question didn't get lost, I did, I prefer to spend my weekends sans computer... :)

RT

SeiserL
01-12-2004, 09:11 AM
We practice with a variety of holds; to the neck, to the collar, close to the shoulder pocket, etc.

IMHO, its important to learn the basics from each school of thought, there is a reason they do it that way. Then practice the variations. Then see the principle behind the waza and you will know why they all work.

Its isn't necessarily an either/or questions or application.

Steven
01-12-2004, 10:17 AM
Funny Ė we were just talking about this at the dojo this past weekend. I prefer not to grab, but have seen this done many different ways. I was taught a variation, assuming the left had is the grabbing hand, where the hand slides from the neck, or from where ever it is, to the lower back. The movement would be as if you were holding a basketball (or ball of your choice ... easy now) straight out in front of you, then turning if over. Or, like holding a steering wheel at the 12|9 position, (right had at 12 and left at 9), then turning to the left. This movement would be done in conjunction with turning your hips and shifting your weight all at the same time. The advanced students would also drop their weight straight down, making this a very hard fall, but extremely effective technique.

Personally, I donít like to grab because I feel if you can't make the technique work without grabbing something, the chances of you making it work in a real altercation with say, a bald and shirtless opponent, is highly unlikely.

Then again, Shioda Kancho of the Yoshinkan, for those who may be new and not know the name, would execute Iriminage without the use of the other hand. In most cases, this was dictated by ukeís attack.

Chad Sloman
01-12-2004, 10:58 AM
Perhaps y'all could give me some clarification on this. I've never been taught to grab the collar at any time during iriminage. Are you talking about grabbing it at the begginning when you turn uke to start his circle around you or are you talking about using the back hand to pull down uke during the throw? I've always been taught that the throw comes from the lead hand/arm turning with the hips causing uke to outrun his head thus falling backwards.

Erik
01-12-2004, 11:29 AM
Perhaps y'all could give me some clarification on this. I've never been taught to grab the collar at any time during iriminage. Are you talking about grabbing it at the begginning when you turn uke to start his circle around you or are you talking about using the back hand to pull down uke during the throw?
Chad, instead of putting the hand on the back of the neck when guiding uke through the technique some folks grab the collar, take out the slack and use the grab as a guide rather than the V of the hand. By your description it's at the beginning.

Any Iwama folks out there?

Erik
01-12-2004, 11:44 AM
Hi Eric, I replied on e-budo.
Got it!
Your question didn't get lost, I did, I prefer to spend my weekends sans computer... :)
I should probably follow this strategy.

Janet Rosen
01-12-2004, 04:42 PM
I used to train at a dojo where the default was the collar grab and essentially hurling uke to the floor (well, if nage outweighs uke, that's the effect--being a small woman I got thrown down on the opening forward movement most of the time). I never liked and never "got" iriminage. There didn't seem to be any blend or joining of centers.

Now I train where the default is a neck or, more often, a head hold--I really like cradling uke's head to my shoulder, uniting us, and then just moving. Both as nage and as uke, it "makes sense" to me. YMMV....

Lan Powers
01-12-2004, 07:43 PM
In our dojo, the grip is to the base of the neck, almost like the classic "vulcan melder".

Also, as Janet said, the head is pressed to the shoulder or VERY base of the bicep.

I like to grip the head in the kokyu-nage variations, but have been told to grab the neck instead for irimi.

(cool to pull down and break balance by the collar grip on taller ukes tho. :) )

Lan