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Justin Cole
01-04-2004, 03:32 PM
Hey, I start Aikido tomm under the teaching of head instructor, Van Bushnell, and i noticed that the type of aikido that I was taking is Yoshinkai Aikido.

What exactly is the difference in these types?

Thanks,
Justin

Peter Malecek
01-04-2004, 04:51 PM
That's easy. Yoshinkai Aikido is just like Aikikai Aikido except we call the techniques by different names as we find that this keeps the riff raff out. In addition not only do we confuse the h*ll out of you with techniques that look easy (that is until you try them of course - just like the Aikikai folks) but we also have basic movements (kihon dosa) that make you feel like a prat from day one.

Ok seriously now, according to the late Gozo Shioda (the founder of the Yoshinkan)it's all aikido, given that he was one of Morihei Ueshiba's students his point of view is hard to argue with.

The usual explanation for the difference in style between Aikikai and Yoshinkai is that Yoshinkai is more linear than Aikikai due to the fact that it reflects pre-WWII aikido form, but I'm not so sure about that. I've trained with a number of people from the various aikido styles and good aikido is good aikido is good aikido (i.e. when done well it's as fluid and as direct/linear/circular as it has to be in order to be effective and efficient). Although Aikikai doesn't appear to have the kihon dosa movements (which are intended to help develop strong and flexible legs and hips)several good aikidoka from other styles were/are just as hung up on hips and legs as us Yoshinkai guys.

As for the name (i.e. Yoshinkai), that I was told is a result of Shioda's father who came up with the name for the actual building/place where Shioda opnened up on his own (i.e Yoshinkan)and was not intended as a break with Morihei Ueshiba. In fact, I was told that Ueshiba helped, or arranged for some sponsors to help, finance the start up of the original Yoshinkan. Although I do not pretend to know if the above is accurate (as I said it is what I was told - by who and when I can't recall - but I did drink a lot so some memory loss can be expected) I do however know for a fact that a picture of Morihei Ueshiba was up in the kamiza at the Yoshinkan and Kancho Sensei bowed to it before taking class.



So I guess the bottom line is that the styles are more similar than different - except of course for the fact that we (Yoshinkai) have a better secret handshake than the Aikikai guys (ask your instructor to show it to you).

Don't get too worried about styles just train.

shihonage
01-04-2004, 05:15 PM
The initial poster asked about Yoshinkai Aikido, and you replied about Yoshinkan Aikido.

Are you sure there's no difference ?

Peter Malecek
01-04-2004, 05:35 PM
Yup, I'm sure. The poster asked about Yoshinkai aikido which is a style of aikido that takes its name from the dojo that Gozo Shioda opened, i.e the Yoshinkan.

Hey, its just another trick we have to confuse people (worked on me for the first few years he he).

Peter Malecek
01-04-2004, 05:43 PM
Ooops, what I meant to say was , "worked on me for the first few years heh, heh ".

indomaresa
01-05-2004, 05:27 AM
thank god you corrected the pronounciation peter, or I wouldn't ever know you were laughing

:) :)

anyway,

There's another difference, yoshinkai aikido techniques are more regulated and precise ( what with the 32 and 47 degrees kamae and all). Yoshinkais please correct me.

While us the aikikai folks can do techniques more liberally, with less rules. Which probably explained why there's so many aikikai style branches

And peter, we don't do the secret handshake anymore. We grew up. mwahaha

:) :)

Greg Jennings
01-05-2004, 05:48 AM
What exactly is the difference in these types?
Hi Justin,

You might search for threads in the forums using "styles" and similar key words.

You could get an even better answer by visiting the other dojo in B-ham. There is Shodokan/Tomiki, Aikikai-ish and, I believe, Obata-ish aikido there in addition to Bushnell Sensei's dojo. If you wanted to make a wider investigation, there is Yoseikan AikiBudo in Tuscaloosa and Huntsville and Iwama-style in Montgomery.

Best regards,

Ron Tisdale
01-05-2004, 08:42 AM
Yoshinkan / Yoshinkai are basically the same thing...the first specifies the school (kan) while the second specifies the organization (kai). An example of a related but different oranganization / school is the Yoshokai, established by Takashi Kushida-Sensei, who left the yoshinkan.

In his autobiography, Gozo Shioda speaks of his father's establishment of a judo dojo named the yoshinkan. Shioda Kancho decided to use that name for his own aikido dojo.
Yo means cultivating; shin means spirit or mind; kan means house; thus Yoshinkan is the house for the cultivation of mind.

Taken from Kimeda Sensei's web page.

I think the other posters have covered the differences pretty well, and there are many posts in the archives (use the search function) with detailed discussions.

Ron

Peter Malecek
01-05-2004, 12:34 PM
Ron - Thanks for joggong my memory. Kimeda sensei (my first teacher) told me about the origin of the name when I came home for a visit, given that I was celebrating something (being home I guess) the detail was a little blurred (or it could be the fact that it has been over 13 years since I first heard the stoy - how did I ever get this old).

I was also going to trot out the explaination of the name but given that my first attempt to make small talk with a girl in a bar in Japan ended with me saying she was frightening rather than cute (kawai rather than kawae - or was that the other way around)I thought it best to leave the Japanese translations to those who know what they're doing.

Maresa - 37 and 42 degree kamae ? While it looks like we have more rules you have to remember that when the Yoshinkan began teaching the police aikido a systematic approach had to be found (25 pairs of guys can be dangerous - not to mention pretty funny looking - if left to their own devices in a dojo). Accordingly, the instructors broke down basic techniques into steps (yet another story I once heard). This makes beginners look like they are doing aikido by numbers but I can assure you that once you see yudansha train the techniques are fluid (i.e. there are no set ways to do ju waza).

Justin - How did you make out on your first day?

Steven
01-05-2004, 02:48 PM
Peter,

Are you practicing at a Yoshinkan dojo in Prague? I don't have one listed in my directory.

Steven
01-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Yes Justin .. how did your first class go?

I had the pleasure of training with one of the instructors from your dojo back in 2000. Had a great time.

Peter Malecek
01-05-2004, 03:17 PM
Steven,

At present I'm training/teaching at the Sei Dojo in Prague. It was founded by an Aikiki sensei back in 1990 but has been run by his former students for at least the past 5 years (he has since gone back to France). I teach regular Yoshinkai classes on weekends (at first I used to come in and do ju waza with the instructors who then started doing the kihon dosa with me and it's gone from there, i.e. they asked if I would teach, I said ok, I don't want to get paid - its not what I do to feed myself - but I can train anytime I want ).

Check out my introduction for more details.

Justin Cole
01-05-2004, 06:52 PM
Just got back, it was GREAT. We learned two new moves, I found an advantage of being short. If you work with taller guys, you're able to get them off-balance easier. I had a great time though.

p.s. - First funny (only I noticed) when i got home, the bottom of my uniform was inside out :)

Justin Cole
01-07-2004, 08:39 PM
Man first two days and you get lost pretty quick lol

destiny
01-13-2004, 04:06 AM
Reading all the posts , am I accurate in saying that the Yoshinkan style of Aikido just employs a different teaching method from that of the Aikikai style ? But the techniques and spiritual beliefs are still the same ?

ross_l
01-13-2004, 06:38 AM
Reading all the posts , am I accurate in saying that the Yoshinkan style of Aikido just employs a different teaching method from that of the Aikikai style ? But the techniques and spiritual beliefs are still the same ?
How about this? The techniques are completely different yet exactly the same.

Shioda-sensei also stripped the spiritual beliefs from Aikido. Please correct me if I'm wrong Yoshinkan aikidoka.

I like the idea that one can bring whatever spiritual beliefs they hold and apply it if they want to or leave it out if they prefer.

Steven
01-13-2004, 08:19 AM
I wouldn't say that Shioda Sensei stripped the spiritual beliefs from Aikido. O'Sensei never forced his spiritual beliefs on him or anyone else, so there was nothing to strip. From what I've read in Aikido Shuygo, Shioda Senseiís biography, he believed that it was through the training of the mind and body, that you reached the levels they did. He also says that despite being an atheist, he always accompanied O'Sensei to the Omote campus and taught and trained in Aikido.

Now to say the difference between the Yoshinkan and the Aikikai is in how Aikido is taught is an accurate statement. And to say that they are the same, but different is accurate as well. One has to decided for themselves what a technique is and is the technique Aikido, or Aikido the technique, or something else all together.

I say it is the principles behind the techniques that make all Aikido the same. What is different is how we teach and apply those principles.

Ron Tisdale
01-13-2004, 08:20 AM
I guess you could say that Shioda Sensei made a decision to teach the techniques of aikido, without focusing on the Omoto Kyo teachings and influence. But I believe that saying he stripped the spiritual componant out of aikido might be a little bit of an overstatement. I think the practice of Budo, regardless of 'religious' undertones, is in and of itself a 'spiritual practice' of sorts. This is one of those areas that can be very hard to define, and is best left to the individual practisioner, in my opinion.

I'm not sure, but even as a self-professed agnostic, I think Shioda Sensei felt something like I do. His autobiography, Aikido Shugyo, provides some insight here.

Ron

Ron Tisdale
01-13-2004, 08:22 AM
Steven and I must have read this at the same time! :)

RT

Steven
01-13-2004, 08:30 AM
Steven and I must have read this at the same time! :)

RT
:cool:

Justin Cole
01-13-2004, 07:53 PM
Either way I'm lost as crap heh

Reuben Lee
01-14-2004, 05:07 AM
Steven, may I say that every form of Aikido

has basic unchanging principles ; And that

the only difference is the way they are

taught ?

Steven
01-14-2004, 08:03 AM
Steven, may I say that every form of Aikido

has basic unchanging principles ; And that

the only difference is the way they are

taught ?
Amen!