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smith
12-30-2003, 12:34 PM
Hello,

After practicing Judo for eight years, age 10 to 18, and not studying at all in the last two years (after moving to a new city), I have become interested in studying Aikido, but would like some input.

I truly love Judo, and would practice every day if could find the people and the place, and I've won many tournaments in my time. But with few dojos in my area I have found it difficult. There are however a few aikido dojos.

Has anyone here studied both judo and aikido. Will I be able to bring any of my skills with me? How do the philosophies differ? What do you imagine would be the most difficult aspect of this change for me? What do you think the two arts have in common?

Thanks,

-Elliott

mj
12-30-2003, 01:13 PM
It all depends on your club. :)

Some clubs will be interested in your experience and technique (I find that some aikido people just love the way judo people can tie them up in knots or throw them).

Other clubs (rarely) will not.

As for the most difficult thing...well for me it is aikido strangles. They are just laughable. Don't make the mistakes I have by pointing it out, just let it go or you get a hard time.

Other than that enjoy. Most Judo techniques work on 2 points or a triangulation, Aikido can work on as little as one point.

mj
12-30-2003, 01:14 PM
Oh..they don't like to be thrown on their backs either..just let them roll away ;)

Jim23
12-30-2003, 01:26 PM
Oh..they don't like to be thrown on their backs either..just let them roll away ;)
Do you mean they get stuck like a ninja turtle, Mark? :D

Jim23

Kensai
12-30-2003, 03:42 PM
I did Judo strait for a year and now on and off.... same with any grappling really.

And I've been doing Aikido for about a year and a half, so near got it perfected... </sarcasm>

Just go for it, some teachers will even let ya take Judo grips for a time for us its more or less 10th form.

But get on the mat and see what happens.

I am sure that it will be a most interesting time for you and them.

All the best.

Michael Neal
12-30-2003, 06:29 PM
Make sure to take it easy on the Aikidoka. I got very enthusiatic when I started taking Judo and dumped a few people on their heads by accident, I still feel bad about it almost a year later.

Most Aikido practice is done cooperatively like uchikomi in Judo, sometimes people like to resist and rough house a bit which is great fun but you may instinctively think randori and then do a big throw that they are not prepared to take.

Aikido is like practicing the Goshin Waza all the time with a little Aikido randori thrown in on occasion. Aikido randori is much different than Judo randori and can be alot of fun but still resist doing Judo throws unless you are sure the person can take it. Aikidoka are used to taking falls forward or backward and rolling out of them, many can not take ukemi well from hard slams on the mat, especially the throws that land you on top of them like Harai goshi.

But if you are paired off with a black belt and they start to try and roughhouse then let go and have fun :)

Aikido has a lot of great stuff and I think you will enjoy yourself, but do not give up Judo.

smith
12-30-2003, 06:31 PM
Actually the thing I'm most nervous about is using weapons. That's as forign an idea to me as punching a guy in the face.

How big a part do memorization and vocabularly play in class. Are you expected to know the names of moves by heart in most places.

I guess i could just start going to watch and see how it goes but i guess i'm just a little worried.

Michael Neal
12-30-2003, 06:35 PM
No worries the weapons practice is slow until you realy know what you are doing, it is only kata so you never really spar with weapons.

sanosuke
12-30-2003, 06:36 PM
Dear Elliot,
Will I be able to bring any of my skills with me?

at least you don't have to spend a lot of time learning ukemi. and your knowledge of ne-waza will be a great advantage.
How do the philosophies differ?

the most common difference is the competition, i think. in general, aikido do not encourage competition. 'randori' in aikido means you take turn to be the thrower (nage) and the one being thrown (uke) using any aikido techniques you like. You may take some time in adopting this kind of attitude.
What do you think the two arts have in common?
the principal of non-resistance, i guess. if i'm not mistaken in judo "you pull when being pushed and pushed when being pulled", whereas in aikido "you turn when being pushed and enter when being pulled", might be a bit different but these two share a something in common, that is you do not fight force against force.

smith
12-30-2003, 06:47 PM
Dear Elliot,

the most common difference is the competition, i think. in general, aikido do not encourage competition. 'randori' in aikido means you take turn to be the thrower (nage) and the one being thrown (uke) using any aikido techniques you like. You may take some time in adopting this kind of attitude.
That's really a shame.. I found compitition to be very stimulating. Espically when working with the sensi or the advanced students. I really felt that i got across somthing that would be very dificult to teach. For example... When your stuck in a difficult strangulation it's easy enought to say how your going to get out, but when it comes to actually doing the move while you cant breath is somthing i think would be hard to teach.

I guess this is not really a fair thing to say since i have only really leaned one way. Maybe the non-coompetition way can be just as efective.

Michael Neal
12-30-2003, 08:01 PM
I don't think the training methods of Aikido are as effective as judo to learn real world application, this is one of the weakneses I found with Aikido. You never really learn to use technique against fully resisting partners. As anyone who has any Judo or similar training knows, this makes a very big difference.

However the training methods of Aikido do allow some more dangerous techniques to be taught that are not allowed in Judo competition. And it does teach you how to deal with multiple attackers. There are also many other benefits of Aikido that people here will surely explain to you.

I do think Aikido is effective, I just believe that it takes much longer to learn than many other arts. I also firmly believe that Aikido is not the wisest choice for a first martial art, it is a finishing school to polish your skills and add a new dimension to your abilities.

As with any art it has its strengths and weaknesses.

I personally started with Aikido and stopped to take Judo. I may return to Aikido one day but only when I have reached at least shodan in Judo and possible blue or purple belt in Jiu Jitsu.

PeterR
12-30-2003, 09:12 PM
Elliot;

Are you seriously trying to tell me there is no Judo in Montreal - look harder, take the Metro.

Kenji Tomiki considered Judo and Aikido to be the same thing separated only by combative distance. Aikido is basically what you do before you get within grappling range.

In my opinion (and there is a story there that I wont repeat) Judo compliments Aikido and vice versa. Aikido is my main art but I train in Judo.

Try Aikido - you might even prefer it over Judo - but don't stop what you devoted 8 years to.

Training wise (with the exception of randori) its about the same. Just as uchikomi has varying degrees of resistance so does Aikido kata. The trick is discovering what the appropriate level is.

mj
12-31-2003, 09:02 AM
Do you mean they get stuck like a ninja turtle, Mark? :D

Jim23
OMG where you been Jim? :D

Chris Birke
12-31-2003, 09:54 AM
Micheal, you heretic!

Jim23
12-31-2003, 10:14 AM
OMG where you been Jim? :D
Such language Mark! I've been tossed on my back - just kidding. :D Just been very busy, but I pop in every once in a while to see everyone blending with each other.

Jim23

kironin
12-31-2003, 10:35 AM
I don't think the training methods of Aikido are as effective as judo to learn real world application, this is one of the weakneses I found with Aikido. You never really learn to use technique against fully resisting partners. As anyone who has any Judo or similar training knows, this makes a very big difference.
This like any generalization is complete nonsense. It really comes down to the local teachers and how training is conducted in individual schools. Training methods vary a great deal and there are schools where one learns to use techniques against fully resisting partners. That is IMO a true test of aikido technical skill. Getting someone to cooperate that has no intentionor or interest in cooperating. It of course has to be worked up to in stages.

Seems like he should be first looking for some Tomiki style related club. Hard to imagine that they wouldn't look very favorably on his judo experience.

Craig

Michael Neal
12-31-2003, 10:37 AM
Yes I am definately an Aikido heretic :)

mj
12-31-2003, 12:02 PM
This like any generalization is complete nonsense. It really comes down to the local teachers and how training is conducted in individual schools....Craig
I know you meant no offense there Craig, but I wonder whether it is based on knowledge of both Judo and Aikido training, or if it is only your opinion?

NagaBaba
12-31-2003, 01:38 PM
Hello,

I truly love Judo, and would practice every day if could find the people and the place, and I've won many tournaments in my time. But with few dojos in my area I have found it difficult. There are however a few aikido dojos.

-Elliott
Hi Elliott,

In Montreal you have THE best judo dojo in Canada --- Nakamura sensei's dojo.He is chef instructor of National Team of Canada and many members of Team moved from all Canada to Montreal only to be able to practice in his dojo every day.

If you rather like to stay with aikido --- the most difficult thing will be, you will find ALL aikido techniques as fake. You will find aikido completly non--efficient in a sense of judo's work. That will be most difficult part.

Also methodology of training is different. There is plenty of techniques "useless" from practical point of view.

Of cours/e, there are some reasons for such reality.

If you still like aikido :D , come to my dojo, we will have fun ;)

Mark Barlow
12-31-2003, 01:53 PM
For the first few years of my training, I practiced Judo two nights a week, Aikido two nights a week and Jujutsu on the weekends. It always seemed to me (and still does) that it's a case of same church, different pew. Once the basics are understood, the differences start to fade away.

L. Camejo
12-31-2003, 05:36 PM
Hey Mark, glad to see you on the forums again :), hope things are coming along well for the Winter Camp. My regrets at not being able to attend.

Once again, Peter beat me to the punch.:)

As someone who supplements my Shodokan Aikido with as much Judo as I can get, I'd have to echo Peter, Mark B. and Craig's comments.

Just to add, there IS competition in Aikido and it DOES provide one with a similar place to attempt techniques under skilled resistance to better appreciate how to apply the principles, how to escape and how to counter. I think you would be right at home at a Shodokan dojo, in the event that you don't find a Judo dojo of course. The approach to kuzushi between the 2 systems is particularly similar in my book.

As far as finding "aikido completly non--efficient in a sense of judo's work", I say it depends on where you train, this has not been my experience at all. It's all in the approach, and Shodokan's training system is highly Judo influenced in a very positive way I think.

Peter may be able to give some directions as regards a good Shodokan dojo in the Montreal area (I think :)).

In any case, go visit with an open mind, train a class and see how you feel.

L.C.:ai::ki:

Paul Sanderson-Cimino
12-31-2003, 06:54 PM
In case there's any doubt, I'd like to take this time to point out that, as there are probably many styles of judo, there are many styles of aikido. Within a single style, variation in training and even technique can be found as well.

For one thing, there's more to aikido ukemi (in some styles) than forward and backward rolls. ^_- Yoshokai, and presumably Yoshinkai as well, also do what I've heard as more 'judo-style' falls for when you're thrown harder/faster/at a bad angle.

Considering what I've heard from judo people, there's also a difference in that aikido has many more joint controls.

I'll try to avoid being stupid and making any more attempts to make 'general' comparisons between two arts.

Let me just finish by noting that from what I've heard, it's best to 'empty the cup'; err on the side of being a total beginner, at least at first. As your aikido grows, you'll probably find ways to synergize with your judo training to increase your understanding.

PeterR
12-31-2003, 07:02 PM
Larry - I was the only Shodokan dojo in Quebec much less Canada.

Montreal has plenty of choice. There are both good Aikido and Aikibudo dojos available.

AsimHanif
12-31-2003, 08:53 PM
Elliot, I think the biggest adjustment you may have to make will be the freedom from competitive rules employed in judo. Also you will probably notice aikido's economy of motion in many similar techniques. For instance you can get up much quicker if you can roll instead of breakfall!

sanosuke
01-01-2004, 07:17 PM
That's really a shame.. I found compitition to be very stimulating. Espically when working with the sensi or the advanced students. I really felt that i got across somthing that would be very dificult to teach. For example... When your stuck in a difficult strangulation it's easy enought to say how your going to get out, but when it comes to actually doing the move while you cant breath is somthing i think would be hard to teach.

I guess this is not really a fair thing to say since i have only really leaned one way. Maybe the non-coompetition way can be just as efective.
no, no Elliott don't say that. only that coming from such competitive environment in judo you may think at first that aikido is sissy (sorry to say) because in aikido generally there's no competition, sometimes too much cooperation. But as Peter says, Judo complements aikido as aikido complements judo. give it a try and see how you feel.

PeterR
01-01-2004, 08:24 PM
Just to chime in once again.

Both Judo and for instance Shodokan Aikido randori is not real fighting (neither is BJJ, UFC or whatever) but they come closer than kata training only. More importantly they develope attributes that are important in their own right in addition to testing your [insert chosen art] under trying circumstance.

If you can't have that in Aikido I think it is vitally important to continue taking Judo. The lessons learnt in Judo randori are directly applicable to Aikido, and yes I do mean direct not indirect.

I started Judo because quite frankly my Shodokan Aikido sucked. However when I was in Honbu I tended to concentrate on the kata I needed to learn. Judo gave me more randori time and since I was quite far away from Honbu - more Budo time. It was not a mistake with the end result being that my horizons are expanded and my Aikido is far better.

Bronson
01-01-2004, 09:13 PM
Hmmm, a quick Google search turned up Judo Contacts in Canada (http://www.judoinfo.com/clubcan.htm). They have it broken down by province and territory, with seven contacts in Montreal. If there is truly no judo around you how about starting some. If you've been at it for 8 years you might be able to start a little club if there is nothing around.

Bronson

kironin
01-01-2004, 10:07 PM
I know you meant no offense there Craig, but I wonder whether it is based on knowledge of both Judo and Aikido training, or if it is only your opinion?
Yes, I have trained in Judo. Played with Judoka competitively. Taken classes from teachers with decades experience in both arts etc.

I am not really sure that is terribly relevant to what I said. It's all only my opinion and I just strongly disagreed with what you said in that post and tried to offer another viewpoint. Nothing personal intended.

Craig

Creature_of_the_id
01-02-2004, 02:39 AM
Hi Eric,

there are some links to some Judo clubs in Montreal here:

http://www.judoinfo.com/clubcan.htm

and here:

http://listingsca.com/Quebec/Montreal-Region/Sports_and_Recreation/Martial/

if you do decide to try aikido out I am sure you will enjoy it. From what I have found the most important skills you will bring with you from judo into aikido is a sense of confidence about yourself and also ukemi.

if you forget everything else for a little while and try not to make comparisons in the beggining then everything will run very smoothly.

smith
01-02-2004, 10:28 PM
WOW... Thanks so much, everyone. I signed up here just to ask this questions. But the quality of oppinions has been amazing. Thanks so much for the advice and links. I'm very impressed. I think I might stay around to participate myself.

As for my plans... Once i read all of your comments over a few more times and get back into sync at school i will definited let you know what happens. I am so happy to be thinking about this stuff again after so long.

Thanks again.

smith
01-02-2004, 10:56 PM
Make sure to take it easy on the Aikidoka. I got very enthusiatic when I started taking Judo and dumped a few people on their heads by accident, I still feel bad about it almost a year later.
I hear what your saying. I started studing Judo when i was pretty young. My club was large at the time. About 40 kids age 10-13. By the time i was 17 i diden't have anyone may age/size to train with so for the last three years i trained only with the teachers. I though had everything under control.

One night i was doing a little randori with my teacher and tried soto makikomi (outside wrap trow, maybe you know it). I diden't control as much as i could have, he put down his arm to block and broke his elbow.

i felt really bad, i was 17 he was 35.

Ends up i broke my shoulder two weeks later.

Circle of life i guess. That's actually when i stoped training. After a year and a half out it was hard to go back, my whole life had changed.

I guess since i'm getting so excited about all this it mean its time to go back.

AsimHanif
01-04-2004, 08:12 AM
There is also the option of possibly finding something like Tomiki style aikido where there is competition.

deepsoup
01-04-2004, 11:20 AM
There is also the option of possibly finding something like Tomiki style aikido where there is competition.
Shodokan would certainly fit in well with judo. (As I think Peter R. already covered.)
Unfortunately, as Peter also mentioned, there's next to no chance of finding a Shodokan dojo in or around Montreal.

Sean
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