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Chris Birke
12-13-2003, 06:06 PM
http://www.aikidog-sales.com/aikicenter/

And... discuss!

Thalib
12-13-2003, 06:25 PM
This is all I can say...

"Say what?"

aikidoc
12-13-2003, 07:34 PM
This looks like one for the Baffling budo section on e-budo.

tedehara
12-13-2003, 09:42 PM
Looks like blended aikido (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6415#post6415) to me.

Michael Young
12-13-2003, 10:08 PM
Well, there's really not much to say. I think anyone sincerely practicing Aikido knows this for what it is...blatant commercialism and self promotion at work. It's happened before and will happen again, and unfortunately this kind of bunk will attract a certain crowd. Maybe large mayber small(let's hope small). Just keep practicing with a sincere mind and heart, I say...and don't crap like this worry you. Oh well, it gave me a good chuckle.

Best regards,

Mike

Chuck Clark
12-13-2003, 10:59 PM
This fellow's stuff speaks for itself. It was only a matter of time before something like this showed up in the marketplace.

It's not worth another moment's thought...

p00kiethebear
12-14-2003, 02:43 AM
Cute...

shihonage
12-14-2003, 06:54 AM
He came up with the name Aikidog, a "catchy" name to inspire those who thought Aikido was an “uncool” art to practice as a discipline that may interest them after they read about it.
Hahahahahahahah.

Hahahahahahahhaha.

Haha.

(cough)

Hahahahaha.

wendyrowe
12-14-2003, 08:11 AM
Listen, guys, I know it's not what you're looking for --- but that's my Sensei, and he is truly an excellent and dedicated aikidoka and teacher.

It's just that he also happens to be a professional fighter and UFC veteran, and has been working for years to show people that aikido really is effective.

The writing style's not to my taste, I'll admit, but Jason DeLucia's the real thing. If you're ever in Massachusetts, come visit our dojo. He comes across much better in class than on the web.

wendyrowe
12-14-2003, 08:42 AM
I should have said Jason Sensei has been trying to show "outsiders" that aikido is effective. Most of us who are already training know that aikido is effective once we've learned enough.

Nafis Zahir
12-14-2003, 09:56 AM
Listen, guys, I know it's not what you're looking for --- but that's my Sensei, and he is truly an excellent and dedicated aikidoka and teacher.
Sorry Wendy,

But this site is garbage! Aikido has no kicks, it's not ju jitsu, it's not wrestling, it's not competitive, it's not violent, and most of all, it's a budo! No disrespect to your Sensei, but if this is what he wants to do, it's fine. But he shouldn't do it in the name of Aikido. Many people, such as myself, have studied other arts or tried to tie other things in with aikido for different reasons, such as for self defense on the street. But when representing Aikido, these things should be left out!

indomaresa
12-14-2003, 10:17 AM
hear, hear

Don_Modesto
12-14-2003, 01:10 PM
Wait a minute--Aikido for the MMA crowd?! They'd laugh him outta da park. The connection between aikido and economic success is not intuitively evident; perhaps not even empirically demonstrable.

Misguided, perhaps; ill-informed, maybe--but commercialism?

Don't think so myself.

Kieun
12-14-2003, 03:41 PM
Well, the content of the site nonewithstanding, the design of the site is really confusing and convoluted.

Wendy, how has your sensei done in these matches? Has he used aikido primarily or is he mixing and matching with other arts? And finally, when he teaches in class, does he teach aikido or does he teach MMA with aikido as a component?

wendyrowe
12-14-2003, 04:45 PM
His fight record is 34-20-1, so he's won lots more than he's lost.

I don't know much about MMA fighting so I can't say much about his technique in matches. But what I've seen includes aikido techniques and submissions but also stuff nothing like what we do in class (kicks, punches).

When Sensei teaches our aikido class, he teaches traditional aikido. Kuzushi is very important. He doesn't muscle his way through techniques and doesn't let us; when he sees us using brute force instead of kuzushi, he works with us until we get it. We use atemi, but it's a diversionary flick in some techniques, we don't go around punching people.

He also teaches a pancrase hybrid jujitsu class, and he's taught some MMA fighters, and he talks with interested students about effective "real world" fighting -- but his aikido class is pure aikido.

I'll be glad to answer other questions from you all, either here or you can PM me. Thanks to all of you for not flaming at me, I was worried when I first replied on this thread.

fvhale
12-14-2003, 05:17 PM
In a Japanese reference, Delucia's aikido style is called "combat aikido" or "sport aikido." He actually has a very impressive fight history which can easily be found on the Web, if you want to look for that sort of thing. A better "visual" presentation is a the Seishin page, http://www.seishinmaska.com/Instructors.htm

I doubt you would see many "traditional" aikido instructors in that "uniform."

We just had an outstanding "traditional" aikido sensei bow out. I hope we don't have a similar experience with this "sport/combat" aikido sensei, if he should decide to join the forum.

fvhale
12-14-2003, 05:39 PM
Just for the record, although I don't compete (are you kidding? I'm old enough to be the father of the retiring champions in my local karate dojo), I support those who practice "sport" martial arts. They put a lot into it, and they get a lot out of it. I'm not going to hold them up to whatever poor understanding I might have of "tradition." I have no problem with aikidog, or what Mr. DeLucia does, although the word confused me, being perhaps too old for the "coolness" of it all. At first I was thinking of akita dog sales, you know, those Japanese dogs. I'm slow.

sanosuke
12-14-2003, 08:03 PM
Welcome To Aikidog The Combat Aikido Website

:confused: :confused: :confused: :eek: !!!!

aikidoc
12-14-2003, 08:23 PM
Wendy:

What are Jason's Aikido credentials? He did not show what his aikido rank or affiliation are on the site. At least I could not find it.

I'm curious.

jk
12-14-2003, 08:36 PM
Well, at least he wasn't dressed in a red hakama. Wendy, any chance of convincing your instructor to jump into these forums? Most people here are nice; it's the shallow end of the internet pool after all. ;)

BTW, since you started this thread, what's your take on it, Chris?

fvhale
12-14-2003, 08:52 PM
Hello. Jason Delucia is actually registered with AikiWeb, although he has not posted since Feb. in the "NHB Fighting and Aikido" thread. His posts seem pretty friendly.

Maybe Chris, who started this thread, should send Jason an email invitation to join the discussion of his site? (Might be better than talking about him "behind his back.")

(Also, I think Jason really does have an akita, so I don't feel so dumb about getting confused about the dog thing.)

Chris Birke
12-14-2003, 09:03 PM
I've known about him for quite some time, he has written on this forum before with regard to MMA, actually.

Delucia definately has done a lot of martial arts. He does a lot of traditional Kung Fu and Daito Ryu, and is one of the few practicitioners of these arts still brave enough to enter a ring. (Kung Fu seems to be effectivly destroyed if grappling is allowed)

He hasnt't made himself a champion, or figured out something that works better than ground and pound, but he's trying.

I've heard second hand stories of his integrity, but they were mostly regarding Delucia's fights with Royce (both official and non). Never met him myself, so it'd be silly to judge.

I am interested in applications of Aikido philosophy to what may be new and more effective techniques. Delucia is trying to apply aikido technique to the MMA ring world. I'm quite interested to see if THAT works.

Otherwise, his website is silly. He needs a publicity manager. I'd noticed some people on this forum from his dojo, and that's why I figure'd I'd mention it and stir things up a bit.

Chris Birke
12-14-2003, 09:06 PM
BTW, I don't really care that it's Jason Delucia doing this. I'm curious as to how people react to his Aikido, and thats why I posted.

It's so appliciable.

PeterR
12-14-2003, 09:19 PM
Aikido has no kicks, it's not ju jitsu, it's not wrestling, it's not competitive, it's not violent, and most of all, it's a budo!
No comment on the site but ....

the above is a whole lot of what Aikido is and what its not. Don't be so sure and more specifically are you telling me the jujutsu and arts the include competition and kicks are not Budo?

To be Budo the martial must be maintained. How one does this varies.

Erik
12-14-2003, 09:34 PM
Aikido has no kicks
I don't know if you've heard of Hans Goto or not. He's a 6th dan and one of M. Saito's first students. Hell of a nice guy too. A few years back he did a series of articles on kick defenses in Aikido Journal magazine. I've seen several sensei's kick during their technique.
it's not ju jitsu
True, in a way, but it's not far removed either.
it's not competitive
A number of folks compete. The foremost are the Shodokan folks.
it's not violent
We've been here before but it depends on your definition of violence.
But when representing Aikido, these things should be left out!
Only if they are not part of it in the first place and regrettably that is not so certain.

Ron Tisdale
12-15-2003, 09:59 AM
As to aikido not having kicks, I was taught one kick by a 7th dan, and if you watch the AikiFriendship tapes, Saotome Sensei uses a kick on his uke (who happens to post here, actually).

I haven't checked out the site in question yet, I'll get to it shortly.

Ron

Roy Dean
12-15-2003, 11:58 AM
Jason is a great martial artist. He actually puts his body on the line to test techniques and fighting methods. I respect the fact that he's trying to breath new life into aikido with his hard earned fighting perspectives and personal interpretation of the art.

The man has skills, and attributes, and the fact that he teaches groundwork as a complement to traditional Aikido tells me that he's both open minded and progressive.

He's had some impressive wins, and some losses, and some injuries. He's been around the block and I think the Aikido community should be very happy that a seasoned fighter would be willing to invest himself in this beautiful art.

Just my 2 cents.

Roy Dean

Alfonso
12-15-2003, 12:04 PM
thanks, I'll pass on the dog..

Ron Tisdale
12-15-2003, 12:44 PM
ok, not my thing...but hey, if it floats his boat...no big deal.

I'd be currious about his teachers, and what they think of what he does. Not that its any of my business...

Just in passing, there was a time when proponants of Daito ryu and other arts were willing to step up. In some ways, its a shame that time has passed...but in other ways, man, am I glad!

Ron

Michael Young
12-15-2003, 02:55 PM
I've been following this thread and debating with myself about posting in it again, because I'm going to come accross as very opinionated, but here goes...

Masa Katsu...it's one of the complex principles of Aikido...does it apply here, and if so how?

I don't know this guy. I don't know about his skill level, personality, integrity, etc. All I do know is that he has posted a web site where the motivation is obviously self promotion...a site that, IMO, presents Aikido in a disrespectful light...and presents the wrong idea to the general public about what Aikido is. Yes, I know there is a lot of argument going on about what Aikido is and isn't...but I've never seen O'Sensei nor an Aikido Shihan wondering around in bikini briefs with knee pads on, flexing their muscles. Maybe I'm mistaken here (insert sarcastic tone), but from those Shihan and direct students of the founder is where Aikido is being handed down to us from...and maybe we ought to look to them a little more often for their guidance instead of making statements like "26 years experience in Martial Arts and over 50 professional fights " and "studying O-Sensei’s techniques from his many videos and books" as justification for claiming some type of unique vision that gives one the ability to present Aikido differently than is traditionally done (don't want to split hairs on how Aikido is traditionally presented..suffice it to say that this website is WAY out of the norm, thus the reason we're discussing it).
I respect the fact that he's trying to breath new life into aikido with his hard earned fighting perspectives and personal interpretation of the art.

I wasn't aware Aikido needed "new life breathed into it", with the growth of so many dojos and students it seems to be breathing just fine to me. I submit that maybe looking harder at how to practice Aikido more sincerely in the form it is being taught now, instead of looking for some half-baked,ill-concieved way of making it "better", would be the path to follow.
I am interested in applications of Aikido philosophy to what may be new and more effective techniques. Delucia is trying to apply aikido technique to the MMA ring world. I'm quite interested to see if THAT works.

AGATSU- The defeat of one's ego...without concern with winning and losing, life/death...pick another definition or interpretation if you like, but how does that apply here? I have a hard time believing that stepping into a ring with the intentions of winning and/or defeat over another, or winning a title or trophy, is application of Aikido. It may be application of techniques as learned in a dojo somewhere, but it is definitely not application of Aikido principles...many techniques of Aikido derived from Daito Ryu Aiki Jyu-Jitsu and other MA's, this doesn't mean that by practicing and applying those techniques that one is practicing or applying Aikido. I might apply a nikkyo or irimi nage to someone, but without the correct spirit and intention behind them, I'm not doing Aikido. To "advertise" and present Aikido in this light is misleading and incorrect. What is going on here is sport, nothing less, nothing more...if you really want to test your technique, go down to the local bar and pick a fight...yeah, picking fights at your local bar is not Aikido, but then neither is stepping into a ring...so don't present it as such.

That's my main issue here...not that DeLucia wants to make money or promote himself. If he wants to persue many martial arts and be a competitive winner in the ring, and use his Aikido practice to supplement this...more power to him, I hope he finds what he wants. But don't present this to the public as Aikido please.

I hate coming accross as hardline here...I believe Aikido encompasses many things and that anyone should practice who wants to...but if you want to present yourself as an instructor, there is a certain level of integrity and respect for the art that should be maintained.

Just my 2 cents

Best regards,

Mike,

always keep an open mind, but don't let your brain fall out in the process:D

Ron Tisdale
12-15-2003, 03:04 PM
Speaking of Masa Katsu Agatsu Katsu Hayabi...

There are some interesting comments on this phrase in the following thread:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=15895

Oh, the interesting comments are by Peter Goldsbury, not me...

Ron

Alfonso
12-15-2003, 06:44 PM
Mr. Ron, if you could posibly elucidate on that post over here... i assume you mean this part..
Masa-katsu ( = tadashiku katta = I truly won, i.e., in a proper fashion) A-gatsu ( = watashi wa katta = I won = It was I myself who won and no one else) Kachi haya-bi (•q‘¬?Ÿ‚Á‚1/2 = binsoku katta = I won with speed and agility).

sounds like Mojo-Jojo to me..

Noel
12-15-2003, 08:14 PM
Lots of glittery, sparkly things on that page. Kinda offends my sense of propriety, but I'm just a curmudgeon. (Ask my wife, she'll confirm it.)

Were I back in Eastern Mass, I'd probably prefer a place with less flash. For instance, there's little place on Mass Ave in Cambridge, just past Porter Square...

Michael Young
12-15-2003, 10:04 PM
Hail fellow Curmudgeon! Best regards to your offended sense of propriety and your astute wife...count yourself lucky to have both, as I do :)

Mike

Chris Raywood
12-15-2003, 10:48 PM
I don't know what to make out of this site, but I tend to side with what was previously mentioned by Michael Young and Kieum Kim.

Somehow the old phrase "Gargage in, garbage out" come to mind refering to information that has value.

If this man has anything to contribute to the art, either in whole or in part, then such contribution(s) will stay and be made use of. If he does not, his site (and/or ideas) will sooner or later disappear.

Personally, (and maybe through my own character flaw) I tend to be put off by any multi-faceted "expert" that claims to be the new messiah of any art.

On the other hand, and with the respect I have for martial artists who put their "money where their mouth is" and get in a ring, I will say this:

No art, whether martial or otherwise stays stagnant. It either evolves, or its dies. I'm sure I don't have to point out to the respondents on this site the number of times in history where an individual presented new ideas that went against traditionalist views or mainstream thought. Their contributions changed and benefited mankind from that day forward.

2 cents.

Regards,

Chris

PS My compliments to Ms. Rowe for jumping in and defending her Sensei. Even though I may not agree with everything she had to say, such an trait is certainly admirable.

Michael Young
12-15-2003, 11:25 PM
Thank you Mr. Raywood for you astute comments, it made me re-read my post, and realize I should have complimented Ms. Rowe on her bravery to stick her neck out as well. My apologies Ms. Rowe, I mean no disrespect to you or your instuctor, and admire your gumption, I also wish you both the best in your Aikido endeavors (although I still stand by my opinions about the website, etc). I would also like to say a general thank you to everyone replying to this thread so far, for keeping it a civil and respectful discusion.

Regards,

Mike

happysod
12-16-2003, 04:17 AM
Wendy, please pass on my support to your sensei. I like different takes on aikido and personally prefer his more "practical" take on aikido to those sites which prefer the esoteric approach.

To those who find the site an affront, all I can say is remember the aiki-golf one?

AsimHanif
12-16-2003, 01:25 PM
My 2 cents...

Aikido is just one of many means to an end. Since each individual in this world has a unique way of understanding, each individual will respond to different means. So no, aikido is not for everybody, although it's benefits can be shared by all.

To a deeper part of this question I answer with another question...

Has aikido been there for everyone?

I don't know of others experiences but I have ALWAYS one of the few Blacks in the dojo (if not THE only). I often wonder why that is. I don't feel that aikido has been accessible to certain demographics. I am not saying that is a fault of the art that we study but it may be a flaw in how we as practitioners market or reach out to others of the various ethnicities. I believe that if aikido is to spread and become relevant in the future somehow we have to reach a wider audience than what has been the norm for the past 30 years.

DaveO
12-16-2003, 07:04 PM
I've been debating whether or not to post on this thread; might as well wade in hip-deep.

Let's look at this:

Here's a guy who's been studying MA for - as he says - 25 years; primarily specializing in groundfighting. His venue of choice is the MMA arena - something in which while I'm not a fan; I'm certainly not against. It's just another venue.

During his travel through the MA world; he has turned to Aikido for a different skillset. He believes in aikido enough to devote a site - or part of a site - to it.

From his student; we see he's an honest, respectful teacher; teaching traditional (I assume aikikai) aikido while practicing its use in MMA for his own expansion.

People have a problem with this?

To put it bluntly; he does what turns his crank. No-one has the right to say he's right or wrong; any more than with anyone else's personal opinions, beliefs, practices, etc. Agree/disagree, debate, yes, but to state outright "This is garbage" is highly arrogant - hardly what aikido teaches, don't you think?

What he does in the MMA ring isn't true aikido? No, of course it isn't; so what? He's competing in a bloody hard field; no art in that field is 'true'. It's a blend of what the individual finds works best for him.

A couple people have stated they don't agree with - to quote one - "I tend to be put off by any multi-faceted "expert" that claims to be the new messiah of any art." Show me where on his site he claims that.

Another didn't like the chosen costume of briefs and kneepads - that's standard dress in the MMA ring. I don't particularly like it either; but if the rules say that's what one wears, then that's what one wears. (Besides, kneepads are just good sense in that venue.)

"Aikido is what it is for each person." That's been stated time and again by the best on this forum, and generally agreed to - until someone shows up and actually does change it to suit himself. Speaking for myself; I certainly wouldn't mind learning a bit from the Sensei in question; I'd learn a lot.

There is one thing about the site, and his technique, that I disagree with however; and Wendy; I'd be grateful if you'd pass this on to your teacher. :)

He's chosen to call his style 'Combat Aikido'. While it's a flashy name; I really don't like the word 'combat' being used so loosely - those of us who have seen real-life combat overseas find it somewhat offensive. Combat is about death, pain and fear. It's something no sane human wants to associate with; but go into anyway in the service of our country. No real objections here; just personal ones, but please tell him I said - with the greatest of respect and geniality - that if he knew the true, horrific nature of combat; he's be less inclined to use it as an advertising slogan. :)

Thanks. :)

Noel
12-16-2003, 08:14 PM
Personally, I have no problem with people teaching whatever they please, be it martial arts, curling, or koryu basket-weaving. Caveat emptor. I, however, have gotten a bad vibe every time I've been in a place that promises Combat-this, or Streetfighting-that. I've had friends get hurt (unintentionally) by the overly enthusiastic products of those kinds of dojo.

I think Wendy has guts for standing up and being counted. However, it doesn't change the fact that if I were looking for a place to practice, after seeing a website like that, I'd let my fingers keep walking, metaphorically.

BTW, what the heck is aiki-golf Ian?

Chris Raywood
12-16-2003, 08:57 PM
[QUOTE="Dave Organ (DaveO)"]A couple people have stated they don't agree with - to quote one - "I tend to be put off by any multi-faceted "expert" that claims to be the new messiah of any art." Show me where on his site he claims that.

Dave:

Maybe my wording came over a little strong, and if that be the case, I apologize to you. However, any person that states on their website that they have "a unique understanding of Aikido and groundfighting" well what can I say. Sounds like "one who deliveres a message" to me.

With best regards,

Chris

wendyrowe
12-16-2003, 09:20 PM
Re John Riggs' credentials question:

Jason Sensei told me he plans to post on this thread. So rather than my passing along secondhand info, I'll leave it to him.

Thanks for some good posts and an interesting exchange of ideas, folks. But I hope it winds down soon; I'm losing sleep because I keep sneaking downstairs to my computer to see what's popped up since last time I looked.

Chris Birke
12-16-2003, 10:04 PM
An aside: The reason people don't wear more clothes in mma is because they turn into little more than gripping handles on your body and a noose around your neck.

It's not a uniform because of it's look, its purely a matter of functionality.

The reason they wear tight pants is because muai thai shorts ride up when you grapple...

(the reason for any pants at all is to keep the cup securely in place, an unquestionably wise descision)

indomaresa
12-16-2003, 10:45 PM
[POOF!]

a suggestion?

wendy, why not take off the site's content and replace it with less self-promotion and more practical information

i.e ; fighting techniques, photos of him in the dojo,

and btw,

what's a cudmurgeon? what does 'caveat emptor' means? curious....

[POOF!]

Michael Young
12-16-2003, 10:52 PM
Have to jump back in an clear a couple of things up...

Like I put in my disclaimer on my first post, I was a little uncomfortable with responding to all this because I felt the tone of my post would come off rather strong...looks like maybe it did to some and not to others. Mostly I would like to respond to Mr.Organ's post. I won't speak for what others have posted but only for myself and the issues he addressed from my post.

Mr. Organ wrote:
From his student; we see he's an honest, respectful teacher; teaching traditional (I assume aikikai) aikido while practicing its use in MMA for his own expansion.
People have a problem with this?

I have absolutely no problem with this. As I stated in the last post, I don't know Mr. Dulucia, all I have to go by is what he posted on a website. My opinions were regarding the way Mr. Delucia is presenting Aikido on his website...it looks like you also have an opinion on this too, as regards his use of the word "combat" and how it does not portray the spirit of Aikido, or could give the wrong idea or conotation. My opinion about the site extends further beyond just that word, to the portrayal of Aikido to the public, please re-read my post, as I don't want to re-write all of the reasons...I will address a few more things, however.

Please note I did write in the post:
If he wants to persue many martial arts and be a competitive winner in the ring, and use his Aikido practice to supplement this...more power to him, I hope he finds what he wants. But don't present this to the public as Aikido please.

I try not to write any opinion like this lightly and think it through before I do, so I meant it in all sincerity when I said I hope he finds what he is looking for...I've got no problem in the world with any other martial arts, or anybody mixing martial styles, cross training etc...but combining Karate, Tae Kwon Do, groudfighting, and Tai Chi, etc., then calling it Combat Tai Chi is no more correct than what Mr. Delucia has done with regard to Aikido on his site.

Also Mr. Organ wrote:
Another didn't like the chosen costume of briefs and kneepads - that's standard dress in the MMA ring.

I'm sure that was a reference to what I wrote, but it is taken a bit out of context. I did not say I didn't like the chosen "costume", in fact I didn't say anything about my like or dislike of it, this is what I wrote:
I've never seen O'Sensei nor an Aikido Shihan wondering around in bikini briefs with knee pads on, flexing their muscles.

I'll admit, the language comes off rather strong, and I should have phrased it better or added to it. I'll take the opportunity to now: In the ring of commercial fights, I can see the practicality of wearing briefs and kneepads (I won't say anything about flexing muscles) I don't have a like or dislike of it anymore than I have a like or dislike of the uniform of a boxer or any other activity..it is simply a tradition and/or practicality of the chosen activity. But again, let me beat my dead horse some more, it is not the appropriate portrayal of Aikido (again, I'm referencing my experiences with how Aikido is given to us by the Shihan and thus indirectly, O'Sensei).

Another quote from Mr. Organ
What he does in the MMA ring isn't true aikido? No, of course it isn't; so what?

There is the problem sir, he is portraying that it is Aikido on this website...that is what, IMO, needs to change.

Please understand, I am not trying to personally attack Mr. Delucia, I simply disagree with the commercialized blend of martial arts he is trying to pass off as Aikido on his web site, and the way in which it is done. I am also very skeptical of people with only 10 years experience in Aikido making statements to the effect they have unique and better views of what Aikido is and the ability to change it to something better or new.

I hope I made clear some of what I meant in my earlier post, and in the process haven't offended. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to read my opinions Mr. Organ, your post gave me the opportunity to solidify what I meant and hopefully gave others food for thought as you have for me.

Sincerely,

Mike

Abasan
12-17-2003, 02:12 AM
Caveat Emptor is buyer beware.. essentially saying is, you buy a product service on as is where is basis. if you fail to like it later, thats your problem.

as far as cudmurgeon goes your guess is as good as mine and since i don't have a dictionary with me, it means i have to buy more readers digest and go through their word power section more often.

i thought i read somewhere in aikiweb that the jason delucia posting here was a fake one?

wendyrowe
12-17-2003, 03:46 AM
Ahmad Abas,

It was in the "No Holds Barred Fighting" thread that Jason Sensei posted and someone said it wasn't really him.

But you have my word that it really was him posting; he even remembers the exchange.

Wendy

indomaresa
12-17-2003, 05:33 AM
ahmad, thank you for the translation.

So if I were to use it in a sentence, it would be something like; "all of you caveats should emptor of empty promises from the vendors" :)

Caveat emptor is latin right? I wonder what's the latin for "takemusu aiki"

Curmudgeon is.... (flipping thru dictionary);

cur·mudg·eon

An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.

paw
12-17-2003, 06:26 AM
Let me see if I understand....

Aiki-Extensions = Good

Combat Aikido = Bad

KiAiGolf = ????

Disagreeing with Jason Delucia is ok, saying he's not teaching "true" aikido is alright, that's a difference of opinion. If Mr. Delucia stops posting in the general fora because of these concerns, that is what is it. Questioning another Sensei results in people being labled as "trolls" and if that Sensei stops posting in the general fora, then this site loses credibility.

Did I get that straight?

Regards,

Paul

Peter Goldsbury
12-17-2003, 06:32 AM
Mr. Ron, if you could posibly elucidate on that post over here... i assume you mean this part..



sounds like Mojo-Jojo to me..
I am not Ron, but No, it is not Mojo-jojo, whatever that means.

It is a translation/explanation of what the phrase Masakatsu Agatsu Katsu Hayabi actually means in the context where it was first used in written Japanese.

Best regards,

Ron Tisdale
12-17-2003, 08:42 AM
Hi Peter,

I decided to ignore the poster in question due to his rudeness. Sorry you had to see that. I hope all is well!

Ron

Erik
12-17-2003, 12:25 PM
Paul,

I'd say you nailed it!

Alfonso
12-17-2003, 12:56 PM
:) my apologies sirs, for indulging in being flippant.

apparently you're not parent to a little girl, so you wouldn't catch the reference to Mojo Jojo of Powerpuff girl fame (the literal english translation could be one of his rants)

I think the point of that particular discussion is related a bit to this topic.

Aikidog website is in a sense a transgression to Aikido traditions , aesthetics, it's "culture"... and yet, the "culture" and its traditions are questioned these days for being invented.

Take, the Masakatsu-Agatsu proverb. I learned (not sure how) the acception of overcoming oneself as the ultimate victory.

And yet, it appears that this is a product of our culture projecting our own beliefs onto the translation, if I am understading the discussion Prof Goldsbury offers in e-budo.

I shouldn't be surprised, given what I've been taught in Anthropology lessons, about what cultures are and how they come about.

I see mr. Delucia's presentation of Aikido as part of the change, the times that are affecting the "culture" of Aikido.

ah. my apologies again if my poor attempt at humor has offended you. :)

Ron Tisdale
12-17-2003, 01:30 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Alfonso. Yep, I'm generationally challenged, I've got no clue as to what kids watch these days. Sometimes I'm challenged in the humor department as well...

my bad.

Ron

SmilingNage
12-17-2003, 11:07 PM
I went to the website and Delucia has a response to the aiki forums questions.

One warning light that has been pointed out before, is the lack of credentials. All references are vague. And no teachers are directly mentioned. That to me speaks volumes.

He maybe a good teacher, but if you dont supply a detailed history citing previous teachers and awards, thats sound very suspect. That casts a serious credibility shadow over what he is trying to do.

I am not attacking the fellow, but I ve always been taught to research before you train.

Chris Birke
12-18-2003, 12:38 AM
I'm going to post Jason's reply here, for people who haven't gone to his website to see it. It seems he indended to post it here origionally. (Jason, I doubt they're blocking you; I bet it's just some weird internet bug, keep trying.)

//

Jason DeLucia Reply to Aikiweb Forum "What The Hell"

With regard to the individual and his comments regarding Mr. Ueshiba wearing tights.

Maybe you didn't know that Mr. Ueshiba was undefeated in sumo until he had a match against Sokaku Takeda and lost. What do you think these men wore when they did sumo. It's easy to be flipant when you've never put any thing on the line especially your life and then to stand around being condecending to people who have paid the real price of serious injury, broken bones, broken liver, brain damage ect. First, if you were trying to look clever you reveal ignorance. If your trying to show intelligence it's stupid and if you want to use fighting words, you better fight. As someone who has lived, fought and trained in Japan for the better part of a decade, being critisized by you in this manner is laughable.

Mr. Ueshiba took challenge constantly, so I see no need for Aikidoka to shy away if they choose to compete. If anyone is being disrespectful toward the art or it's practitioners, it's people who hide behind the premise of nonviolence but use fighting words a true pacifist does not not use words to insight violence. You can see from your remarks about Mr. Ueshiba in tights until you know that Ueshiba did sumo in a loin cloth you felt you were pretty clever or funny, you tried to be a beacon for something you don't know much about and in the same breath tried to put yourself on the same level with words that can only be acsended to with actions. This is common among arm chair Martial Artists, opinionated egotists and cowards. You want to pretend to have an understanding as deep as Mr. Ueshiba's or at least lead people to believe that you're some learned creature who has a unique understanding and insight.



I say with authority that you mislead people when you try to use a platform like this and embody it's antithesis. If you would honestly like to discuss something about Aikido, make it about Aikido instead of standing around pointing to what you think is or is not Aikido and being effrontery in the process.

p.s. If your wondering why these comments were not posted on the aikiweb, it's because we were denied access.

Chris Birke
12-18-2003, 12:49 AM
I think I owe Jason a partial apology, as I got him involved in this without asking him.

I wanted his take on Aikido to be discussed (and it is) but I didn't want to put the man on the line.

When you are discussing an idea, it's a fallacy to attack the man. Even an idiot can say 1 + 1 is 2. Saying he's wrong because he's an idiot doesn't make sense. Ideas must be evaluated independently.

My feelings in a nutshell are that Aikido needs way more randori training. Learning against a resisting opponent is invaluable.

Jason is closer to this approach than many, and although his website is goofy (sorry Jason, your website needs some serious simplification) his martial arts are rock solidly grounded for discussion.

People attacking his credentials: would you fight him in an even weight class if you had to? Would your respected sensei? Would you get destroyed? Is that reflective of something? Sometimes people can make their own credentials.

I evaluate a martial artist by his skill, not his lineage.

Erik
12-18-2003, 02:35 AM
Damn, I thought about doing the Sumo comment! :) Knee pads also are not that rare on the mat amongst the not so young knees.

However, this was an interesting comment,

p.s. If your wondering why these comments were not posted on the aikiweb, it's because we were denied access.

Knowing our host, this seems pretty unlikely to me, and, how hard would it be to register a second account?

Also,

People attacking his credentials: would you fight him in an even weight class if you had to? Would your respected sensei? Would you get destroyed? Is that reflective of something? Sometimes people can make their own credentials.

I can think of lots of people who could destroy me, on and off the mat, probably him included. It doesn't mean a damn thing as to whether or not they do aikido. Some of those people don't even do a martial art.

I would also like to see his "aikido" credentials. I'm not questioning his credentials as a fighter, nor the direction he's trying to take the art, which I'm inclined to think is positive. I'm simply curious who got him started down the aikido path? It's something I admit to having mixed feelings about. On the one hand, "the must train X years with a shihan" as the only way to learn aikido disgusts me as lunkheadedness. On the other hand, if you teach aikido, which for the most part still has it's lineage intact, then I don't think it's too much for someone to have spent a couple of years, at least, with a mainline Aikido instructor.

Chris Birke
12-18-2003, 03:29 AM
Eric, that's a good point you make, martial effectiveness isn't an end all determiner.

I regard it pretty highly, personally, as I tend to seek my philosophy from who I consider the best philosophers and my fighting from who I consider the best fighters, but, I must remember that by far my most skilled and favorite instructor is also a man of absolute integrity (the two go hand in hand very well).

I forgot that in Aikido things are a bit different in the sense of evaluating martial effectiveness and that the integrity of a person is tied in more tightly than mma at large. The question deserves it's own thread, and I done made it. =D

SmilingNage
12-18-2003, 09:51 AM
I dont want this to degrade into a melee, but posting credentials is important. It keeps crackpots from springing up claiming to be Martial Art teachers when they dont have the background or authority to open a dojo/training hall. That is just a general statement not direct at anyone in particular.

When I go to train at a dojo, I want to know the background of the teacher. Who were his teachers? How long have they been studying? How long have they been at this particular location? Who presented him with his rank?

This isnt personal attack. Its a search for answers to basic and honest questions.

Talon
12-18-2003, 10:11 AM
i participated in the past thread on MMA that Mr. Delucia was activelly posting in. I must say that I aways found his posts admirable. He comes across as a person with alot of experience in Martial Arts and a person that fell in love with Aikido like many of us. Furthermore, he comse acrros as an inteligent person that has no problems relaying information in a proper manner.

Whether his site is impressive or not doesnt really matter. Its the quick to judge comments that come from some of the people on these forums that are concerning to me. Some people didnt even know who he was yet they were quick to type their opinions of the site and the man.

I hope Mr. Delucia applies the Aikido techniques in the MMA events that he is intending to compete in. I for one would like to see him in the ring and chear for him. Remeber Aikido is a differnet path fro differnet people and O'Sensei never backed out of a challenge himself so there is nothing wrong with Mr. Delucia to chalange himself in the ring if thats his path.

As far as credentials are conserned, I belong to a small Dojo and my Sensei chose not to affiliate due to the hassle with politics and other costs and issues which have nothing to do with training. That was his choise and that doesnt make him any better or worse of an instructor than someone with a list of credentials.

When I picked my dojo I observed the way the Sensei perforemd techniques, explained the details of the techniques to their students and the way the students participated in class.

I pickd the dojo where the Sensei apperaed to me to be the best teacher and had the most realistic approach to Aikido since thats what I was looking for. The last thing that I was looking at were his credentials on paper, his past teachers or his affiliations.

All the best to Mr. Delucia and the rest of the Aikidoka on the forums.

Michael Neal
12-18-2003, 10:18 AM
I personally was more offended by the Aiki Golf site. The Delucia site is a little odd, but at least he is practicing Aikido as a martial art. I was even publically attacked by a senior member of my former Aikido dojo for daring to criticise the Aiki Golf site.
My feelings in a nutshell are that Aikido needs way more randori training. Learning against a resisting opponent is invaluable
I think this is a worthwhile endeaver, some Aikido dojos do no randori at all, the ones that practice randori don't do it enough.

Probably 30 minutes of every practice should be dedicated to it (or at least 30 minute a week), even if it is just one on one light randori.

Every once in a while Aikido students should put on padded grappling gloves, headgear, and mouthguards and not try and knock eachothers heads off but practice techniques against more realistic strikes and such.

These types of things will boost the average Aikidoka's confidence and refine their technique for practical application.

You can do all this and still preserve the traditional aspects of the art.

Ted Marr
12-18-2003, 11:16 AM
I've seen several references to this "offensive" aikigolf website on this thread... would someone be kind enough to provide a link for those of us who are curious?

Erik
12-18-2003, 12:41 PM
I've seen several references to this "offensive" aikigolf website on this thread... would someone be kind enough to provide a link for those of us who are curious?
www.kiaigolf.com

Don_Modesto
12-18-2003, 12:51 PM
I've seen several references to this "offensive" aikigolf website on this thread... would someone be kind enough to provide a link for those of us who are curious?
Google--> Kiai golf

Erik
12-18-2003, 12:55 PM
I forgot that in Aikido things are a bit different in the sense of evaluating martial effectiveness and that the integrity of a person is tied in more tightly than mma at large. The question deserves it's own thread, and I done made it. =D
Chris, this isn't what I meant. Aikido is a damn subtle and refined art at high levels. Without going into character, it's possible for someone to apply a shiho nage, have it work, and I would not call it aikido, or not "good" aikido. In my opinion, it's about feel and what the person is doing, rather than a person's character as such. Effectiveness is part of it, but it's not it, by itself.

I started to write more but realized it would be a long post, and not on the topic, so maybe another day and in another thread. I do have a couple of lineage stories to share in the other thread, eventually.

Michael Young
12-18-2003, 01:26 PM
In response to Mr. Delucia's statements about my posting.

O.K....I will not deny that O'Sensei practiced sumo, or that he wore a thu...or a loincloth...or even, might have been naked at some point in his life....but show me a picture or tell me a story you have heard of O'Sensei or his Deshi or any other Shihan or high ranking instructor with lineage and legitimate credentials practicing AIKIDO with blood on their chest, muscles flexing, and in tights. What is the purpose of displaying such pictures of yourself on a web site Mr. Delucia, is it to promote Aikido or to promote yourself? If it is the former and not the latter, then you have failed miserably IMO, and maybe you might want to consider (as some others here have suggested as well) re-designing the site. I have worn kneepads and knee braces and other bandages (haven't tried a loincloth yet ;)), etc. during my Aikido practice, but I was also wearing a keiko-gi and/or hakama at the time. I even have a drawing of O'Sensei given to me from Michio Hikitsuchi Sensei (he was one of O'Sensei's earliest students and he is the last 10th dan in Aikido living in the world, whom I had the opportunity to practice under him at one point)where O'Sensei is in a loincloth pulling a large tree out of the ground...but the picture is about a story from his history, not about his practice of Aikido. I don't want to keep splitting hairs over the statement I made about the description of your outfit on the site. IMO it was an example of what is wrong with your website. I was not trying to be flipant, or clever, nor was I trying to attack you Mr. Delucia, and in fact have posted a follow up pointing this out from the original post.

I will also not deny that O'Sensei took on challengers in his life...particularly the earlier years of his martial arts training. But I have heard stories, directly from Uchi-Deshi, of O'Sensei, as well as read from his and his Deshi's writings, that challengers were not allowed in the AIKIDO dojo...when they approached and demanded challenge they were denied or kicked out by the students. Why would O'Sensei deny challengers and do such things, if he truly was this purported great martial artist. Aikido is not combat, it is not fighting, it is not meeting aggression with aggrerssive response. Do your reading, asks high ranking legitimate instructors, and even preferably O'Sensei's direct students if you get the chance...I have Mr. DeLucia. ALL of my kyu and balck-belt rankings have come from direct students of O'Sensei. I too have practiced in Japan, and had the great opportunity to travel in Japan and meet and practice under a number of Shihan. Do I step into rings to test the effectiveness of my Aikido? No, and neither do your Mr. Delucia. Don't delude yourself or others into thinking you are practicing Aikido in a MMA ring. As I stated before...you may be applying some of the techniques and principles you learned in a dojo..but you are not practicing Aikido there. I don't deny that you may be a very good or even great martial artist...but just like me, you have a long way to go in your Aikido practice, and I wish you the best in that endeavor. Reading books, watching videos, and 10 years of Aikido practice doesn't give anyone a unique vision of Aikido, at least not insofar as to claim to have developed something new and better.

As to myself and why I think I can post an opinion. First of all, this is America and anybody can do so...hardly the best reason, but one none-the-less. I love to see most of the opinions and ideas shared here on the boards, rather from non-practitioners, beginners, different countrymen(and women), experienced practioners, and even those from other MAs. Rergardless wether they are an expert on some subject or not. Everyone has something to offer, including you Mr. Delucia...but here is my Caveat Emptor...keep it rational, respectful, and non-threatening. Don't hurl insults and challenges to others because they disagree with you...I try not to do so myself, and if something comes accross that way, I apologize immediately...It is simple courtesy that we all need to apply here, and sometimes, I guess, courtesy is not that simple, and needs to be practiced constantly...that is part of Aikido...not from my mouth, but from my instructors'.

Let me put some of your statements about me, into a question/answer format. Do I step into competetive rings to test myself? No. Have I ever? Yes. Do I put my body on the line to test my Aikido or myself? Well, that is a complicated question that deserves a little longer answer. My current Aikido instructor is in law enforcement, he prefers not to tell everyone precisely what it is he does, but he has no problem with me stating the fact that he was a street cop for a few years and worked drug vice in Baltimore. Now, his mettle was tested everyday he went to work...both in direct physical confrontations, and his communication and interaction with criminals and citizens. That is true life and death....not a contest in a ring. He is my instructor, his views and take on Aikido have been tested and developed directly in life and death struggles... someting interesting he has related to me is that everytime he got into a contest of trying to aggressively "beat" or "conquer" someone, it turned into a struggle of muscle to muscle and who was biggest and fastest. As he began to progress further in his Aikido, he learned how to manipulate aggressive criminals through Aikido principles...never thinking about winning/losing, defeat/conquer...but instead allowed the aggressor to "find where he/she needed to go". His instuctor in Aikido is a Shiahn and Uchi-Deshi of O'Sensi as well, that is where my instuctor's lineage comes from. He brings all of this to the dojo, and in fact I left another instructor and school to train with him because of precisely those reasons. So, do I need to go out and pick fights to test Aikido and see if it works? No I don't think so, I'll trust these guys.

We practice very hard in our dojo, with a critical eye toward the practical application of the physical and internal sides of Aikido, while not loosing site of the tradition and principles as of non-aggression...these things are not mutually exclusive...I don't say that from an "armchair" perspective either...

Not to turn this into a diatribe of self-aggrandizement, but you have inferred that I am both stupid and a coward for having the audacity to relate my opinions about your website...it doesn't really concern me that YOU think so, but I also think that if I am going to legitimately keep posting on this subject, I have to answer those allegations. Let me relate where I come from and why I study Aikido...I deal with life and death everyday too..I am constantly in harm's way...I work as a professional firefighter in the 9th largest city in the US. I can't even count how many times I have been in life and death struggles. I have been shot at while trying to stop the bleeding of patients; I have been inside burning building while they collapse around me; I constantly deal with the effects of crime, disease, and natural disasters and the harm they do to other people (including the crewmen I am responsible for) and myself. I have no delusions about the profession I have chosen, nor do I expect praise from others in order to do it...I know what I signed up for from the beginning.

What I do expect is not to be called a coward, I don't think I deserve that. As for being stupid...well, there is no denying that I have done stupid things...but I hardly think that qualifies me as wholly stupid. I have earned a college education and have promoted in my profession to the point that I now am an offcier in command of my own crew...There must be some trust in my intelligence from my superiors to be placed in such a position. Now, in my job and daily life, I have not had to engage in a direct physical confrontation with anyone...although I try to apply the principles of awareness, correct action, and courtesy in everything I do. What I have had many times is the opportunity to avoid physical confrontation, and help others to do so, when things have gotten heated, and I attribute this to my Aikido practice. I took striking MAs for years also, and competed in tournaments, but got tired of that stuff and decided to seek something else out...(there is nothing wrong with other MAs, I simply am doing someting else now). So, yes, Mr. Delucia I have and do put my life on the line...and am responsible for looking after others who do so also. Its not a ring with a referee, its real life, and it is where I try to test the mettle of myself and Aikido. I don't think any of that qualifies me as an "armchair martial artist".

None of my words were fighting words Mr. Delucia, they were simply opinions that you and others have the opportunity to discuss the legitimacy of, about your website. I also spoke respectfully about you to one of your students in a private message and on this thread. I never stooped to saying I am an expert on anything, or hurling insults or veiled challenges. I did say I had no knowledge of you as martial artist or instructor... I have no intention of fighting or competing with others Mr. Delucia, I have enough of that to do inside of myself. I do wish you, and your students, the best in your martial arts and personal developement...but I still stand by opinions about your website.

Regards,

Mike



PS. I'm not a pacifist either...but that's for another thread...

Don_Modesto
12-18-2003, 02:30 PM
Two days ago I prepared a note for this thread but it disappeared under Aikiweb's time limit. Oops! (My response at the time was not so moderate.)

Although I too would like to know who Mr. Delucia's teachers have been, even if he learned his aikido from a book, this is still following Osensei in practice, right? (We all do remember that episode where he was asked to teach Naginata which he promptly undertook to study by placing a pulp novel on the KAMIDANA and dreaming it's curriculum. If Mr. Delucia did that, we'd call him a fraud, right?)

I mostly support Mr. Delucia. Is what he does (juding by the site) textbook aikido? Hardly. But then, who among us follows the ideal so assiduously? Aikido has plenty of wiggle room here and there are sanctimonious bliss-ninnies cloaking their martial incapacities in universal-love rhetoric just as Mr. Delucia alleges.

If he wants to take his training into competition, it is not the venue nor his panties defining his aikido but his attitude. This is between himself and his conscience.

And if he promotes himself? It seems he stoops to commercialism and sponsorship. Well, maybe his father wasn't as wealthy as Osensei's. And remember, when that dole ran out, it was soldiers, admirals, spies, plotters, and assassins supporting the founder. Wiggle room, indeed.

More comments follow after my initials.
O.K....I will not deny that O'Sensei practiced sumo, or that he wore a thu...or a loincloth...

DJM: That was a clever rejoinder, wasn't it!

....but show me a picture or tell me a story you have heard of O'Sensei or his Deshi or any other Shihan or high ranking instructor with lineage and legitimate credentials practicing AIKIDO with blood on their chest,

DJM: "Blood on their chest." Assuming you're speaking metaphorically...The story is told, of Ueshiba accepting a challenge from a judo player, crushing the man's hip thus ruining his career (apologies for providing no reference; I think I read this on Aikidojournal.com or in one of Stanley's books). Shioda boasts in his Aikido Shugyo of breaking a bottle over a man's head and then driving the broken shards into his face. One of the founder's close students was executed as a war criminal (in Aikido Masters by Stanley Pranin, if I recall aright.) Several highly regarded Ueshiba Honbu Shihan are infamous for injuring students (see editorial by Stanley Pranin.) Many went out to try their technique in the street.

What is the purpose of displaying such pictures of yourself on a web site Mr. Delucia, is it to promote Aikido or to promote yourself?

DJM: Golly. What would we make of it if he circulated pictures in which he had pinned TWO men at once and was standing over them, er, as we have seen with pictures of Osensei?

....kneepads and knee braces...loincloth...keiko-gi...hakama...O'Sensei is in a loincloth...your outfit...

DJM: No stranger to the attraction of esthetics myself, I still have to remark that all this is ephemera--cultural, historical, or utilitarian perhaps, but hardly worth serious consideration. Aikido is not defined by underwear and skirts.

....challengers were not allowed in the AIKIDO dojo...when they approached and demanded challenge they were denied or kicked out by the students.

DJM: As were some interviewers. The UCHIDESHI infamously cloistered the man from things of which he himself seemed to approve (PAG relates, "I am struck by the powerful response which O Sensei's personal presence evoked in these individuals. And a number of them have very particularly remarked on his openness to foreigners even in situations where many around him were leery and advised against taking on one or another student for reasons of nationality or social status." see http://143.207.8.139/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000618.)

Why would O'Sensei deny challengers and do such things, if he truly was this purported great martial artist. Aikido is not combat, it is not fighting, it is not meeting aggression with aggrerssive response.

DJM: Yeah. I find that kind of disturbing, myself. Neither fish, nor fowl, nor good red herring is this aikido. When challenged, its' not fighting; when ridiculed, it is. More wiggle room.

Do I step into rings to test the effectiveness of my Aikido? No, and neither do your Mr. Delucia....you are not practicing Aikido there.

DJM: Whether he's trying to win a trophy or trying to ratchet up his level of ability with stiffer training--only he knows this in his heart.

Usagi Yojimbo
12-19-2003, 12:14 AM
Ai Carramba!!! Stumbled into a war zone here... alright, well in my opinion, as we've heard one too many times already, Aikido is in no way about fighting. So it's not really true Aikido in the sense that it's used aggresivly in fighting. I mean, I've been taught Aikido is all about pacifism and what not, to avoid the fight altogether if possible. Am I mistaken in this assesment of the art? If so, then I'm wrong and it really IS Aikido. If I'm right, however, then it's just fighting. I personally do sparr with a friend of mine. I LIKE sparring. I figure there's no way to get stronger without getting your arse kicked first. Of course I don't really use Aikido while sparring (one reason being I'm not fast and fluid enough to use it effectivly, two, as I said before, it wouldn't be true Aikido). Well, I altogether don't have a problem with the guy instructing or anything, as long as it's done in a more traditional method. One of the reasons I like Aikido, is because of its tradition, as all Martial Arts (although Karate I still haven't figured out...). The main thing that bugs me is the name "AikiDog" or whatever it was. In my thoughts, "what the hell?" applies directly to this. Aikido is something from Japan. Japanese culture is, or maybe just was, strewn (sp?) with honour. Honour was the very basis of samurai (yes I do realise they were people too and would act dishonourably at times, but there were still good samurai as well). And to call yourself a "dog" while practicing martial arts just makes me wonder what the holy hand pies is moving through that head of yours. One too many landings on your head perhaps? If you can get past the blatant self-promotion and the "dog" thing, then there's some good. ... Aikidog my ... foot...

Thalib
12-19-2003, 03:08 AM
Wow... long rants... but I agree with most of them.

Though I disagree with DeLucia's (Did I spell the name right?) Aikido, or should I say AikiDog, I do not believe it's worth the effort saying wether he's right or he's wrong. These type of things has a history that even dates back to even before I was born.

Yes, some of us are offended by DeLucia's use of Aikido, but as long as we keep true to ourselves, why are we bothering over this? What DeLucia is doing is his business.

Things like this just amuses me sometimes, but since it has no bad effect on my Aikido, all I do is just smile. :)

Michael Young
12-19-2003, 11:32 PM
In regards to the Aiki-golf site:

http://www.kiaigolf.com/

At least the guy is wearing a Hakama and Gi..;)

HAHAHAHAHAHHA!

-Mike

PS. Nobody get their hakamas (or whatever you wear on the mat;) ) in a wad please...I'm just poking some fun at myself.

aikidoc
12-20-2003, 12:04 AM
I see the picture with Doran Sensei causing her to vibrate is gone.

indomaresa
12-20-2003, 01:43 AM
can someone help Mr. Jason get online here? I'd like to hear from him too.

Maybe he can e-mail someone on this thread, to be posted here?

Michael Neal
12-20-2003, 06:52 PM
I see the picture with Doran Sensei causing her to vibrate is gone.
Actually its still there, LOL

http://www.kiaigolf.com/aikido3.htm

"Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei – and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"

Priceless

shihonage
12-21-2003, 06:23 AM
Actually its still there, LOL

http://www.kiaigolf.com/aikido3.htm

"Note the calm flow of Ki from Doran Sensei – and its vibrant electrical effect on Jamie Sensei!"

Priceless
"Causing the perverted enemy to attack

I must then stand behind his form

And so cut the enemy down

With a golf ball"

- O Sensei

SmilingNage
12-21-2003, 05:15 PM
Be the ball.....

Noonan,Noonan,Noonan,Noonan,Noonan,Noonan.....

Robert Neweef
12-23-2003, 11:08 AM
As someone who has lived, fought and trained in Japan for the better part of a decade, being critisized by you in this manner is laughable.
I'm sorry to see this type of bravado right off the bat.:(

cody
12-23-2003, 08:53 PM
The main thing that bugs me is the name "AikiDog" or whatever it was. . . to call yourself a "dog" while practicing martial arts just makes me wonder what the holy hand pies is moving through that head of yours.
"Aikidog" is a play on words, referring to Sherdog.com (http://www.sherdog.com), a very popular MMA website.

As for "sensei jeff's" website (is there some reason not to use the correct phrase "DeLucia Sensei"?), the only things about it that offend me are the poor grammar and web design.

Notice that no one jumps on Mitsu Yamashita or Fumio Sakurai for bringing MMA influences to Aikido. Also notice that DeLucia claims to have studied Aikido for longer than OSensei studied any of the various ryu that he based Aikido on. Is DeLucia unqualified to have worthwhile views on martial arts because he is non-asian?

PeterR
12-23-2003, 09:42 PM
Also notice that DeLucia claims to have studied Aikido for longer than OSensei studied any of the various ryu that he based Aikido on. Is DeLucia unqualified to have worthwhile views on martial arts because he is non-asian?
The claim is wrong of course and even then Ueshiba changed the name of what he was trained in to Aikido.

That said there are Japanese Aikidoists that also get flack for doing same but he's out there with a huge web site promoting it.

Put yourself out there is bikini briefs and you are fair game.

Peter R.

Usagi Yojimbo
12-24-2003, 02:37 AM
My whole point about that comment is to call someone a dog is a most dishonourable statement, and to therefore bind together Aiki and dog in such a manner is a dishonouring remark to Aikido, as if a dog could practice it.

Bronson
12-24-2003, 03:25 AM
My whole point about that comment is to call someone a dog is a most dishonourable statement, and to therefore bind together Aiki and dog in such a manner is a dishonouring remark to Aikido, as if a dog could practice it.
In Chinese culture the dog is a symbol of loyalty and honesty. See below from a website on Chinese astrology. A quick search for the Japanese zodiac found an almost indentical description.
People born in the Year of the Dog possess the best traits of human nature. They have a deep sense of loyalty, are honest, and inspire other people's confidence because they know how to keep secrets. But Dog People are somewhat selfish, terribly stubborn, and eccentric. They care little for wealth, yet somehow always seem to have money. They can be cold emotionally and sometimes distant at parties. They can find fault with many things and are noted for their sharp tongues. Dog people make good leaders. They are compatible with those born in the Years of the Horse, Tiger, and Rabbit.

From a site on Native American Totem Animals (http://www.allthingsspiritual.org/totems/animals.htm) I found this:


Dog energy is loyalty. It is through Dog that we learn to accept others as they are, and to serve others with no thought of self.

Some more folklore concerning dogs from choronzon.com (http://www.choronzon.com/efsd/animal.html#D) Dogs - Faithfulness and protection, strong spirit. In Celtic from the Hound or the Dog (Abach) is an animal of the hunt, frequently associated with humanlike intelligence. The hounds of Fionn mac Cumhail, Bran and Sgeolainn, are actually transformed humans, The Cwn Annwn, are the Gabriel hounds that accompany Gwynn ap Nudd during the Wild Hunt as well as guarding the gates to the Underworld or Annwn the kingdom of the God of the Dead, Arawn. Cuchulain the Champion of Ulster gets his name from replacing the Hound of Cuchul that he kills. He is called the "Hound of Ulster" from this event. The hound is also his totem animal.Guardian hounds occur widely in shamanic Otherworldly lore. The Altaic shaman encounters a dog that guards the underworld realm of Erlik Khan. When the Yukaghir shaman follows the road to the kingdom of shadows, he finds an old woman's house guarded by a barking dog. In Koryak shamanism the entrance to the land of the dead is guarded by dogs. A dog with bared teeth guards the entrance to the undersea land of Takakapsaluk, Mother of the Sea Beasts, in Innuit shamanism. The custom of burying a dog and the skin of a favourite reindeer with a dead man was still current among Ugrian people of Siberia earlier this century.

Bronson (who happens to have been born in the year of the dog and is damn proud of it :D)

PeterR
12-24-2003, 04:05 AM
Woof

Aiki-puppy

Thalib
12-24-2003, 09:07 AM
Meow...

Aikitten

Usagi Yojimbo
12-26-2003, 01:27 AM
So should we start calling people dogs randomly on the street as a compliment or something? It's still generally not something one would proudly accept. People don't normally wish to die like a dog, think like a dog, or simply be called a dog.

PeterR
12-26-2003, 02:17 AM
So should we start calling people dogs randomly on the street as a compliment or something? It's still generally not something one would proudly accept. People don't normally wish to die like a dog, think like a dog, or simply be called a dog.
LOL - deviating from Aikido discussion I know but no matter what the word I used if I started randomly complimenting people on the street I could get into trouble.

The Aikidog term wasn't applied to others but himself and I must say the use of self depreciating labels has a long history especially on the internet boards.

If my memory serves me correctly the owner of this forum - the esteemed Jun Akiyama - used a far worse Aiki compound. Aikidog is tame by comparison and no worse then several other members on this very board. Take a look at the member list.

indomaresa
12-26-2003, 09:21 AM
you lucky dog!

SmilingNage
12-26-2003, 11:18 AM
What I object to is the logic behind what Mr Delucia's calls his Aikido training, essentially reading a book. Reading a book doesnt make one qualified to become a teacher of any sort. Its not enough to be called a student either. At best you might qualify as a casual observer.

An example:

I am a long distance runner. At the local bookstore, There is a book on sprinting. After the book is read, I am now a sprinter.

Or a more relevant example:

Since I ve studied aikido x amount of years, I am qualified enough to read a book on Wing Chun and open up a Wing Chun training hall. If I trained in martial arts, then I can read a book on another martial art and become a teacher of that martial art. The logic is severely flawed.

Or yet another example:

I am a Aikido student. Since Aikido has roots in other arts like aiki jujitsu, etc, does that then qualify me to be a student if not a master/teacher of all the martial arts that make up the background of Aikido? Does it make me a Shinto follower as well. What the heck I might as well call myself a Shinto priest for that matter. In any case this type of logic is faulty and just doesnt add up.

Aikido is not a "if -then" statement. If I read an aikido book then I will be an aikido student or possibly a teacher of Aikido. Its very presumptuous and naive to have this perception. To label yourself an Aikido Teacher after such "training" is flat out fraudulent. Reading a book doesnt make you an Aikido teacher by any standards. You may say you teach Aikido, and have students, but having students doesnt make one a teacher of Aikido.

Mr Delucia may be a fine martial artist and fighter.I am sure he would make a great UFC coach to someone who pursues that style of fighting. Its a free country, He can teach what he has learned in the ring to whomever he wishes too. But reading a book doesnt convey the true knowledge of aikido techniques. That requires years of study and practice under the watchful eye of an Aikido Teacher, ie a person who has been certified to teach by other Aikido teacher(s) or Aikido organization. Dont call yourself an Aikido teacher if you havent earned that title thru training under a certified Aikido teacher.

The intent here is not to slander or disrespect Mr Delucia. Its my point of view that he is wrong to call himself an Aikido teacher. If he can produce Aikido credentials, then I have no problem with him calling himself an Aikido teacher. Further more I think its wrong and misleading to label your martial art movement as Combat Aikido. Dont associate what your doing with Aikido if you never trained in Aikido before. I am not doubting your system of martial arts. The name Combat Aikido implies that what your doing has something to do with Aikido, which it doesnt. Its your own style give it your own name. Dont bunch in a martial art's name, Aikido in this case, into your fighting style's name if you have never been instructed in Aikido before.

Be original in your name, its your style. Best wishes and good fortune in your endeavor.

Usagi Yojimbo
12-26-2003, 12:16 PM
The book must be read 10,000 times before one can truly master the art of page turning....

Don_Modesto
12-26-2003, 12:21 PM
So should we start calling people dogs randomly on the street as a compliment or something? It's still generally not something one would proudly accept. People don't normally wish to die like a dog, think like a dog, or simply be called a dog.
Pardon my shaky-hips, lily-white naivete, but isn't "dog" some sort of hip-hop slang for "buddy" or something like that? Mr. Delucia is much cooler than I so I imagine he's up on such things, er, that is, Down! Baby! He be DOWN! Thass what I'm TALKIN' 'bout!

Jeanne Shepard
12-26-2003, 11:48 PM
I'm an Aiki-Monkey.

Jeanne

TomanGaidin
12-27-2003, 07:23 AM
I'm an Aiki-Hamster, myself.

Just my take on this issue.. I think it's a matter (IMHO) of whether Aikido's physical techniques alone without the philosophy are still enough for it to be called 'Aikido', or if it requires the philosophy as well. Or, conversely, whether Aikido with just the philosophy and no physical techniques is still 'Aikido'. Then again, just the name 'Combat Aikido' and that he's a MMA fighter doesn't necessarily mean this contradicts the 'Aikido philosophy', persay.

Going from the videos on DeLucia's site, it looks like he knows Aikido techniques and isn't just dressing up some other arts under the name. Personally, I say give him a chance, no matter that the web-site mightn't be to the liking of some. The aikido training he gives would seem to be both a mix of traditional aspects and also a little 'something new', which (again, IMHO) is not necessarily a bad thing.

DGLinden
12-27-2003, 07:38 AM
This all reminds me of the to-do over gay marriage. We already know what Aikido is the same way we know what marriage is.

Just because someone wants to be thought of as doing Aikido (or Marriage) but wants to re-define the parameters, too bad. Either do it according to the definition or call it something else. That's hard on those who can't do it according to the definition or who want to rape a marketplace ripe for change, but at some point we need to embrace reason and call it what it is.

Chris Raywood
12-28-2003, 11:54 PM
[QUOTE="William Oakes (SmilingNage)"]What I object to is the logic behind what Mr Delucia's calls his Aikido training, essentially reading a book. Reading a book doesnt make one qualified to become a teacher of any sort. Its not enough to be called a student either. At best you might qualify as a casual observer.

William,

I'm just curious about the comment referencing DeLucia Sensei just reading a book. I can't seem to find any indication of that fact on this thread. Would you please advise.

Regards,

Chris

sanosuke
12-29-2003, 01:31 AM
I'm an Aiki-Monkey.

Jeanne
Me is Aiking-kong.

Vincent Munoz
01-16-2004, 01:31 AM
to all,

PLEASE BE MATURE IN AIKIDO, PEOPLE WHO CRITIZED aikido are those who have not yet attain their maturity in aikido. When aikido got into your heart and life, and understand its principle - only then you can infact say that aikido is the best. Little knowledge is dangerous. When your pride starts to rise, that's the time you'll start to fall down - head first.

one in budo,

bong

happysod
01-16-2004, 03:31 AM
Vincint, can you clarify what you mean, I have no idea how this relates to the thread? Did make me find a nice quote though

Maturity is often more absurd than youth and very frequently is most unjust to youth.

-- Thomas A. Edison

Michael Neal
01-16-2004, 01:57 PM
to all,

only then you can infact say that aikido is the best.
that statement lacks maturity, not that I am a shining example of maturity myself but ...

indomaresa
01-17-2004, 04:50 AM
Yes, nobody here is qualified to criticize aikido itself.

But we CAN criticize aikido training or techniques, and that's what most of us are doing now. To aikidog, that is.

I personally think that Aikido IS BEST, because it can fit whatever martial art situation, and non-martial art as well. All we've got to do to achieve it is keep training.

JasonFDeLucia
01-19-2004, 08:24 PM
Yes, nobody here is qualified to criticize aikido itself.

But we CAN criticize aikido training or techniques, and that's what most of us are doing now. To aikidog, that is.

I personally think that Aikido IS BEST, because it can fit whatever martial art situation, and non-martial art as well. All we've got to do to achieve it is keep training.
who ever is judging that ,nobody here is qualified to judge aikido itself ,is putting him or herself (at least in his or her own opinion)above everyone else.to criticize aikido training you are criticizing aikido.to say that the thing you're looking at is not aiki is like saying there must be no ghosts because i've never seen one.and a person who has done aikido only in dojos of traditional etiquete can can never have the same level as the one who has in addition a combative nhb experience ,never ever ever...

Qatana
01-19-2004, 08:35 PM
Huh?

Erik
01-19-2004, 09:03 PM
Huh?
I'd like to express a similar insight!

Suzanne Cooper
01-19-2004, 09:36 PM
DeLucia Sensei,

Your name seems familiar. I know NOTHING about martial arts of any sort, so I can't imagine why.

You weren't part of the Discovery Channel Extreme Martial Arts show recently, were you?

Please don't anyone laugh where I can hear you! :) My younger teenager and I watched it with rapt attention: I from the egg-headed, scientific side and she from the martial arts side. I do so poorly with names.

But was that you, Sensei?

PeterR
01-19-2004, 09:56 PM
OK that needed to be read a couple of times but I think I get the idea and, assuming I did, I might agree.

Anyone who has even seen Aikido can judge - the value of judgement reflects the level of experience. That experience does not even have to be in Aikido per se.

To even suggest that being critical of Aikido somehow lacks in maturity is about as foolish as you can get. There are, depending on your perspective, plenty of holes in the art and more to the point plenty of holes in the way it is practiced. The questions, comments and opinions expressed on this board are in fact nothing new and all have at one time or other been discussed by some very senior Aikido folk including major students of Ueshiba M..

Several of them tested their Aikido under very trying circumstance, some developed methods to do the testing under relatively safe circumstance. Jason chooses NHB, People like Shioda, Chiba, Kobyashi H. went prowling. Tomiki developed an Aiki randori. All knew that ordinary practice is not going to teach you Aiki without some sort of confrontational experience.

I once had a 5th Dan in a style other then my own tell me "I am a fifth dan you can not judge my Aikido". Thing is I had seen a good number of fifth dans that really could do the business. I was perfectly placed to judge even though I was only Shodan. I could have been wrong but the right to judge was still there.

indomaresa
01-20-2004, 09:23 AM
who ever is judging that ,nobody here is qualified to judge aikido itself ,is putting him or herself (at least in his or her own opinion)above everyone else.to criticize aikido training you are criticizing aikido.to say that the thing you're looking at is not aiki is like saying there must be no ghosts because i've never seen one.and a person who has done aikido only in dojos of traditional etiquete can can never have the same level as the one who has in addition a combative nhb experience ,never ever ever...
Glad to see that Sensei deLucia is finally chiming in.

There's hundreds of aikido styles out there. If I criticize aikikai, am I criticizing aikido? No.

Sensei deLucia, Am I criticizing your style? I don't know, I haven't seen it. But I don't approve the way you use aikido as a popularity gimmick. ( Judging from www.aikidog.com )

Plus I disapprove of your conduct in my heart only. Read carefully and you'll notice that my posts didn't even word anything resembling critic "on" you.

And... I AGREE WITH YOU that traditional aikido training can never be the same with the one with additional combative experience. If you had the time to ask one of your pupils, miss wendyrowe, you'll find out that I wholeheartedly approve with your realistic aikido training. I've discussed this previously with her via private messages.

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, you could be completely honorable person and your techniques and demeanor reflecting the very essence of aikido. But I DON"T KNOW THAT. I only have your site to judge with. ( and that martial art show on tv ) Don't mind me, I criticize aikido training all the time. Especially mine.

Mr. Rehse, IMO people should see every aspect of aikido before judging aikido itself. So I still think no one IS & WILL EVER BE qualified to judge aikido. only the training.

Judging someone's aikido is not judging aikido. We all know the difference. I haven't seen all of aikido, and I'm sure you or aikidog haven't, so there.

:) :)

L. Camejo
01-20-2004, 10:54 AM
Hi folks,

Isn't every person's Aikido different? Even within the same dojo? As it comes from that individual's particular abilities and combination of mind, body, approach toward training, experiences, mindsets etc.

If this is the case, then all we can do is judge Aikido at the moment in time that we are judging "someone's Aikido". The simple truth is that EVERYONE'S Aikido is different at some level, but the thing that makes "Aikido" different from something like Boxing for instance is a set of principles that define what each system is supposed to achieve.

Hence, if a person has a solid grounding and understanding of "the principles" (with Shodan being understood as someone who has a solid grounding in the basics in many places), then one who understands the principles should be able to determine for him/herself that (A) What they are seeing can be called Aikido (in principle), and (B) Whether it's any good (i.e. if the performer is adhering to the principles). Of course the principles that different groups may choose to focus on may be different, but that does not change the number of principles, only the ones that are focussed on.

I mean, do we need to see every possible permutation of kotegaeshi to be able to effectively understand and apply the principle of the technique? I hope not.

Peter gave the example of a 5th Dan who said that Peter could not judge his Aikido, but then if the principles that we adhere to as Aikidoka are the same, then why not?

If we do not adhere to the same principles, then maybe we are not doing Aikido as we had thought. The question then becomes, who determines what are the original core of Aikido's principles. I'm sure there is enough recorded history of Ueshiba M. in training to figure that one out though.

Just a few thoughts. When I first read this thread I began to wonder if Tomiki K. came across similar comments in his time.:)

Train hard people.

L.C.:ai::ki:

SmilingNage
01-20-2004, 04:24 PM
who ever is judging that ,nobody here is qualified to judge aikido itself ,is putting him or herself (at least in his or her own opinion)above everyone else.to criticize aikido training you are criticizing aikido.to say that the thing you're looking at is not aiki is like saying there must be no ghosts because i've never seen one.and a person who has done aikido only in dojos of traditional etiquete can can never have the same level as the one who has in addition a combative nhb experience ,never ever ever...
Well to say you are an Aikido teacher and not ever been taught in Aikido; That does leave yourself open to be criticized and rightfully so. You arent teaching Aikido, its your own special take on martial arts. You and what you are doing have no ties to Aikido. Take a look at what you call your style, combat Aikido. Look at the word Aikido and see what it translates to in english, the way of peace/harmony. So the name of your style is the combative way to peace/harmony? I guess it means I will beat peace into you. Maybe you mistook peace for "piece". Thus, I will beat you into piece(s)as your style's name would make sense.

JasonFDeLucia
01-20-2004, 06:52 PM
OK that needed to be read a couple of times but I think I get the idea and, assuming I did, I might agree.

Anyone who has even seen Aikido can judge - the value of judgement reflects the level of experience. That experience does not even have to be in Aikido per se.

To even suggest that being critical of Aikido somehow lacks in maturity is about as foolish as you can get. There are, depending on your perspective, plenty of holes in the art and more to the point plenty of holes in the way it is practiced. The questions, comments and opinions expressed on this board are in fact nothing new and all have at one time or other been discussed by some very senior Aikido folk including major students of Ueshiba M..

Several of them tested their Aikido under very trying circumstance, some developed methods to do the testing under relatively safe circumstance. Jason chooses NHB, People like Shioda, Chiba, Kobyashi H. went prowling. Tomiki developed an Aiki randori. All knew that ordinary practice is not going to teach you Aiki without some sort of confrontational experience.

I once had a 5th Dan in a style other then my own tell me "I am a fifth dan you can not judge my Aikido". Thing is I had seen a good number of fifth dans that really could do the business. I was perfectly placed to judge even though I was only Shodan. I could have been wrong but the right to judge was still there.
Peter Rehse ,thank you for your exact understanding.you said what i was thinking but was unable to write .simply because i am a fighter, does not mean that i don't think aikidoka don't fight .but i do think that generationaly practice becomes watered down if there isn't something to spur intensity.

nothing spurs intensity like getting knocked out.but simple competition will surfice.

jason delucia

JasonFDeLucia
01-20-2004, 07:01 PM
Glad to see that Sensei deLucia is finally chiming in.

There's hundreds of aikido styles out there. If I criticize aikikai, am I criticizing aikido? No.

Sensei deLucia, Am I criticizing your style? I don't know, I haven't seen it. But I don't approve the way you use aikido as a popularity gimmick. ( Judging from www.aikidog.com )

Plus I disapprove of your conduct in my heart only. Read carefully and you'll notice that my posts didn't even word anything resembling critic "on" you.

And... I AGREE WITH YOU that traditional aikido training can never be the same with the one with additional combative experience. If you had the time to ask one of your pupils, miss wendyrowe, you'll find out that I wholeheartedly approve with your realistic aikido training. I've discussed this previously with her via private messages.

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, you could be completely honorable person and your techniques and demeanor reflecting the very essence of aikido. But I DON"T KNOW THAT. I only have your site to judge with. ( and that martial art show on tv ) Don't mind me, I criticize aikido training all the time. Especially mine.

Mr. Rehse, IMO people should see every aspect of aikido before judging aikido itself. So I still think no one IS & WILL EVER BE qualified to judge aikido. only the training.

Judging someone's aikido is not judging aikido. We all know the difference. I haven't seen all of aikido, and I'm sure you or aikidog haven't, so there.

:) :)
maresa,i am only doing a literal take on the words used ,not intending to assert ill intent ,but some times ,like myself it happens that we write it not the way we thought it.it is not for me a popularity gimmic ,it is how i feed my family.any one who is comissioned to fight in any capacity,is in fact consistant with the legacy that brought the art to you .

JasonFDeLucia
01-20-2004, 07:19 PM
Well to say you are an Aikido teacher and not ever been taught in Aikido; That does leave yourself open to be criticized and rightfully so. You arent teaching Aikido, its your own special take on martial arts. You and what you are doing have no ties to Aikido. Take a look at what you call your style, combat Aikido. Look at the word Aikido and see what it translates to in english, the way of peace/harmony. So the name of your style is the combative way to peace/harmony? I guess it means I will beat peace into you. Maybe you mistook peace for "piece". Thus, I will beat you into piece(s)as your style's name would make sense.
once again you show what you dont understand.

the kanji for aiki has many allegories ,but the true literal martial meaning is to harmonize with every intension in order to control it.which is why hapkido is aikido.are you going to tell koreans that they can't use the kanji for hapki simply because it doesn't jive with your romantic notions of having a deeper understanding of peace and love ?no .these were allegorical translations by a very religious, pious man who wanted to make it more than just a martial art.but the fact is that the aiki kanji denotes the axioms and principles of the military form and it is a happy coinsidence that they validate pious precepts.harmony of energy militarily means ,when pushed ,pull,when pulled ,push,

when pushed ,turn,when pulled enter.you do not know this because you study from the religious perspective which was derived after the military.the kanji existed long before mr.ueshiba allegorized it.and if you've done your home work yould remember some significant quotes from mr.ueshiba...aikido is 99% atemi .thats right ..atemi.that means striking .i figured i would interpret it for you since you didn't know what aiki really meant . wakata?jason delucia

SmilingNage
01-20-2004, 10:41 PM
once again you show what you dont understand.

the kanji for aiki has many allegories ,but the true literal martial meaning is to harmonize with every intension in order to control it.which is why hapkido is aikido.are you going to tell koreans that they can't use the kanji for hapki simply because it doesn't jive with your romantic notions of having a deeper understanding of peace and love ?no .these were allegorical translations by a very religious, pious man who wanted to make it more than just a martial art.but the fact is that the aiki kanji denotes the axioms and principles of the military form and it is a happy coinsidence that they validate pious precepts.harmony of energy militarily means ,when pushed ,pull,when pulled ,push,

when pushed ,turn,when pulled enter.you do not know this because you study from the religious perspective which was derived after the military.the kanji existed long before mr.ueshiba allegorized it.and if you've done your home work yould remember some significant quotes from mr.ueshiba...aikido is 99% atemi .thats right ..atemi.that means striking .i figured i would interpret it for you since you didn't know what aiki really meant . wakata?jason delucia
Ok once again you dont understand. You have this perception you are actually doing something new and your not. Principles taught in Aikido dont need to be justified by you, countless men have died over the centuries pursuing these techniques. What O'Sensei has done is to group techniques that he had learned and modify them to some degree and gave what his special type of martial art and martial understanding a name, Aikido.

Do you see a theme here. O'Sensei learned techniques, changed some, and gave it a NEW NAME. And the name Aikido represented how he felt what his SPECIAL brand of martial art was meant to do for the world. To sum it for you, he gave what he was a doing a new name. Does an explanation get any simplier than that. Can you follow?

Again, you are using Aikido name to give what you are doing accreditiblity. What you are doing is not Aikido. You are leetching off of its name for your own means. Aikido is an established martial art. And yet again, you have never been trained in Aikido. Where do you get off using a name which you have no ties too. I am not to familiar with Mass. law but I would I go far as to say what you are doing is fraud and deceitful advertising. You are not an Aikido teacher, you are a pitfighter.

As for me, you dont know anything about me. So dont speak for what I do and dont know, what I believe and disbelieve. What I am giving you is the straight facts as presented by you. But I will let you in on a little secret, learning martial arts is about self mastery not self justification. It's not about taking what you have taught and justifying yourself by calling people out to fight you when they dont agree with you. Its shameful, anyone who behaves in such a manner shouldn't have never been trained in any martial art.

As always you continue to miss the point of conversation, instead you fire back with threats,lack of understanding and most of all a lack of humility. But with just 2 wins over the last 4yrs, 2 major leg injuries, the truth is being revealed to you. I would have been able to continue this conversation and enjoyed the exchange, but there is nothing you can no longer offer me but a boorish,self centered point of view.

Do you understand? William Oakes

PeterR
01-21-2004, 12:02 AM
Now this is getting silly. I re-read the thread and his site.
As always you continue to miss the point of conversation, instead you fire back with threats
Where exactly did he threaten you?
And yet again, you have never been trained in Aikido.
What I understood from the web site is over ten years of Aikido training including at least one visit to Aikikai Honbu and an attempt to see what's out there besides the teachers he's directly exposed to. Can't see how you go from that to no training. I'm curious as to who his teachers were but odds on I wouldn't know them anyway.

I must say I'm pretty close to Jason's view of Aiki. One could make an argument that the mindset required for NHB goes against the Aikido philosophy but even here you have two people choosing to test themselves - there is effect is no aggressor and both people tend to walk away relatively intact. As I mentioned before there is in fact really no difference from some very well known shihan in their younger days.

PeterR
01-21-2004, 12:28 AM
Aiki at it's best.

erikmenzel
01-21-2004, 04:59 AM
My probably way to late comment to all of this would be that I never trained with DeLucia so I cannot comment on his aikido.

I did visit his website and indeed he is guilty of making a poor website but then again so is 95% of the people making website (probably including myself also) and that has never been a crime nor has it been anti-aiki.

Can we nowgo back to the dojo and start training again?

happysod
01-21-2004, 05:13 AM
Eric, no, it's much easier typing than training. Anyway, we haven't fully discussed whether Jason has committed the ultimate crime of misrepresenting useful martial techniques as aikido :D

willy_lee
01-21-2004, 12:53 PM
If you have any questions about Mr. Delucia's aikido, he has several video clips and pictures available on his website (click on "Aiki Clips").

From viewing the plain aikido clips, it doesn't look to me like he learned it out of a book.... :)

=wl

Bronson
01-21-2004, 01:49 PM
O'Sensei learned techniques, changed some, and gave it a NEW NAME. And the name Aikido represented how he felt what his SPECIAL brand of martial art was meant to do for the world. To sum it for you, he gave what he was a doing a new name. Does an explanation get any simplier than that. Can you follow?
Hate to be a hair splitter here William but I don't think O-Sensei gave the art the name aikido. I'm working from memories here, maybe someone with a better one and more knowledge of aikido history could chime in. I think that the name was given by a commitee/commission and O-Sensei merely agreed to let it be called that. I think I remember reading that he wasn't particularly fond of it either but for political reasons let it stand (but I could be thinking of something else entirely on that point).

Bronson

indomaresa
01-21-2004, 02:39 PM
aiki-budo at first, then aikido later

Don_Modesto
01-21-2004, 03:34 PM
Hate to be a hair splitter here William but I don't think O-Sensei gave the art the name aikido.
http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/article.asp?ArticleID=87

AN INTERVIEW WITH MINORU HIRAI

by Aikido Journal

Aikido Journal #100

AJ: I believe you played major role in the name-change from aiki budo to aikido when you were a representative of the Kobukan Dojo to the Daí Nihon Butokukai

MH: I was the Director of General Affairs of the Kobukan beginning around 1942 and I helped out Ueshiba Sensei in daily matters. "Aikido," rather than being a specifically selected name, was the term used to refer to "Butokukai-Ryu" aiki budo within the Daí Nippon Butokukai. The headquarters of the Daí Nippon Butokukai was located in Kyoto and Butokuden centers were set up in all prefectures. Tatsuo Hisatomi from the Kodokan, and Shohei Fujinuma from kendo, were close friends of mine. The Butokukai was an independent, umbrella organization for the martial arts, and it also was in charge of martial arts in the police departments.

It was very difficult to create a new section in the Butokukai at that time. Mr. Hisatomi proposed the establishment of a new section including arts for actual fighting based on jujutsu techniques. The techniques of yawara (an alternate term for jujutsu) are comprehensive and also include the use of the ken and jo. I also made a number of suggestions and Mr. Fujinuma and Mr. Hisatomi understood my ideas. However, had I insisted on these things nothing would have been decided.

There was discussion within the Butokukai about the choice of a name for this new section. It was discussed many times in meetings of the Board of Directors, and particularly in the judo and kendo sections. We had to consider all of the different individual arts encompassed when we tried to come up with an all-inclusive name. It was decided to select an inoffensive name to avoid future friction among the different martial arts.

(More follows for subscribers.)

FWIW, this issue is also being discussed at http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=61666#post61666.

Roy Dean
01-21-2004, 07:16 PM
"...but i do think that generational practice becomes watered down if there isn't something to spur intensity."

That, friends, is the truth.

JasonFDeLucia
01-21-2004, 09:05 PM
william ,are you related to frank burns?

JasonFDeLucia
01-21-2004, 09:48 PM
Glad to see that Sensei deLucia is finally chiming in.

There's hundreds of aikido styles out there. If I criticize aikikai, am I criticizing aikido? No.

Sensei deLucia, Am I criticizing your style? I don't know, I haven't seen it. But I don't approve the way you use aikido as a popularity gimmick. ( Judging from www.aikidog.com )

Plus I disapprove of your conduct in my heart only. Read carefully and you'll notice that my posts didn't even word anything resembling critic "on" you.

And... I AGREE WITH YOU that traditional aikido training can never be the same with the one with additional combative experience. If you had the time to ask one of your pupils, miss wendyrowe, you'll find out that I wholeheartedly approve with your realistic aikido training. I've discussed this previously with her via private messages.

I'm pretty sure I could be wrong, you could be completely honorable person and your techniques and demeanor reflecting the very essence of aikido. But I DON"T KNOW THAT. I only have your site to judge with. ( and that martial art show on tv ) Don't mind me, I criticize aikido training all the time. Especially mine.

Mr. Rehse, IMO people should see every aspect of aikido before judging aikido itself. So I still think no one IS & WILL EVER BE qualified to judge aikido. only the training.

Judging someone's aikido is not judging aikido. We all know the difference. I haven't seen all of aikido, and I'm sure you or aikidog haven't, so there.

:) :)
maresa,part of the misunderstanding with all of this is words .every body speaks different english .much like our aiki,the french in my family don't speak english like the italian in my family,and thats my own family.but in this problem my web page was made by people who know me ,but are not me .i am not a business man.so what is done for the benefit of business doesn't concern me so much ,and the small details don't either .but business feeds my family so i give license to those who run my business.my job is only fight, teach and train.for me aikido is the most beautiful form even though i must consider all forms in my job .too much time is spent by some(william oaks)telling people to do what they want them to do ,instead of doing it them selves for them selves.can't we all just get along?

bcole23
01-21-2004, 11:54 PM
I don't really have much to say in interpreting this discussion. I will chime in with my opinions though. Mr. DeLucia, while obviously not currently holding a Ph.D. in English, seems to be a very down to earth and honest type of fellow. I can't say that I've found much fault with the things he's said. At least one person on this thread seems to take this whole thing as a personal attack and I feel that that person needs to go back and look at himself rather than post here.

I also agree with the comments that the invariably well spoken people on this thread have posited about the web site. I feel that if you publish, and you are publishing Mr. DeLucia, information that you should make every attempt to do your research (which you've done), develope what you want to say (which you've done but not very well), and then perform some kind of peer review (take for instance, this thread right here). It is you who are responsible for the information on your web site. You're entitled to say whatever you want, but from your replies it would seem to me that you've let other people say things and have provided them with an implicit consent to a work that you have not put enough time into making sure it is developed correctly.

I can honestly wish you the best of luck and respect in-so-far as I know about you. Please try to keep an open mind and listen to the people here whom you feel have valid concerns.

indomaresa
01-22-2004, 02:09 AM
No, no, sensei DeLucia, I'm not offended by your posts. Nor am I angry when I wrote it. You'll notice there are smiles under my posts

:) :) <<------

MY sensei had a similar experience of being an outcast in our foundation because of his practical approach to aikido. Teaching in the military and promoting the practical application of aikido seems to generate hostility from traditional dojos here (god knows why)

So, I feel some empathy with your current predicament

But now that you've cleared that the website design and wording wasn't made by you or in your knowledge, that's good enough for me.

However, if you don't mind my suggesting. Why not ask the web maker to modify the site, to be less promotional, and more informative? I found out that excesively promotional words can turn some people off ( which your site is guilty of). Properly worded information can catch more attention.

Btw, I'm a copywriter and designer. So I hope my suggestion can carry some more weight.

Budd
01-22-2004, 11:25 AM
I have more respect for a man like Mr. Delucia that is willing to break a sweat and try things out than for folks that philosophize and speak in quasi-mystical tones without ever taking risks to find out if their method of practice works.

I'm not singling anyone out (aside from Mr. Delucia, who has my respect), but I suspect I am being clear.

carloguevarra
01-23-2004, 09:18 PM
hey guys, mushin

Don_Modesto
01-24-2004, 01:27 PM
I'd still like to know where Delucia Sensei learned his aikido.

Sensei?

Thank you.

JasonFDeLucia
01-26-2004, 08:05 PM
to truely say who is responsable for my aiki it would be sifu frank heaney and grand master he il cho.and a list of fiftey or so others but i choose first mr rick masterson directly under sensei glen webber and o sensei takano of the azabu aikikai tokyo.

PS .SOME ONE SAID TO ME THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE DISCREPANCY REGARDING SENSEI TAKANO AND TAKANO SENSEI.NANI GA CHIGAU NO?EGO KANGAE SOSHITE NIHONNO KANGAE .RYO HO DAI JO BU

MATA NE

Mato-san
06-03-2006, 09:41 AM
Jason,
I have communicated my respect and support of what you are doing with you not long ago.
The most controversial man in aikido. Gotta love it.
Defeating Minowa earns that kind of respect.
For everyone that likes to put you down, I think that they should accept that everything on this planet goes through it`s stages of evolution, even aikido. Aikido has roots and they are deep roots solid roots, also has branches and leaves. You are a product of the roots that feed what you do, others may be a different branch or leaf but they all feed from the same roots. I believe you evolve from kung fu roots also. Like o`sensei evolved from mixed arts.Anyhow your record shows that you are not easily defeated so 'chin up' and your dojo is the first place I will visit when I come to the states.