Tori vs Dori

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[Daniel Mills]

Is there actually a difference? If so, what exactly, please? :)

-D.

[akiy]

No difference. "Tori" comes from the Japanese verb "toru" which basically means "to take." When some consonants are used after certain sounds, they undergo what's called "nigori" in Japanese or "becoming voiced" in linguistic circles. In this case, the "t" sound becomes boiced and becomes "d".

Hope that helps,

-- Jun

[Daniel Mills]

I didn't think there was any difference. I use Tori whereas a friend used Dori and proclaimed I was incorrect, so.. I set out to set him straight.

Many thanks :)

-D.

[kironin]

:freaky:

I am more worried about

doumo

vs.

dou mo

Craig

[BKimpel]

Speaking of romaji (writing Japanese using Roman letters), who finds the switch from the Hepburn system to the (Sin-) Kunreisiki ((new) Cabinet ordinance system) completely annoying? (Not to mention the earlier Nipponsiki (Japanese style), which is even more confusing)

For instance, doomo (Hepburn), written as doumo does not help English-speaking people pronounce the o longer (or emphasized o sound). It actually serves to confuse things more, naturally thinking of the sound as an oooo sound (like shoe in English).

Does anyone else have troubles with the Kunreisiki way, or is it just me? By the by, which way is used currently (assumingly outside of Japan)?

Also Jun, maybe you can answer this one for me:

Is tsuki (punch) and suki (opening) supposed to sound the same (both ‘ski’ because of the almost silent u)? Or is there supposed to be a different sound for the t in tsuki?

The reason I ask is because I have great difficulty discerning the two words spoken by Japanese (maybe that’s just me too).

[Nick Simpson]

Im most probably wrong but I was disscussing the similarity between tsuki and suki the other day. I was under the impression that you pronounced suki with more of a z sound, like "zuki", becuase otherwise the similarity is confusing, or it is to me at least...

[Kent Enfield]

Is tsuki (punch) and suki (opening) supposed to sound the same (both ‘ski’ because of the almost silent u)? Or is there supposed to be a different sound for the t in tsuki?I'm not Jun, but I can answer this. The two words do not sound the same. Both of have "almost silent" u's, but the intial consonant is different. Tsuki is pronounced with the ts. Though this combination starts no English words, it ends all sorts of them. Say "cats" without the "ca" part.

When the intial syllable becomes voiced (like when tori becomes dori), both become zuki. With a voiced initial consonant, the u is also pronounced.

Just like morote + tori = morote dori, morote + tsuki = morote zuki.

[BKimpel]

Thanks Kent.

Now is the z in zuki actually pronounced as a z sound (like in English), or is that just the new Kunreisiki way of spelling it (which completely confuses me!)?

By the way, what is the “nigori” rule anyway? I mean are all consonants “voiced” when another word precedes it, or only some?

From my Karate days I remember Keri (kick) becoming Geri when combined (such as in Mae-Geri (front kick), or Mae Keage-Geri (front snap kick)), and I have always known the tori switch to dori (as in morote-dori, of jo-dori).

[Kent Enfield]

Now is the z in zuki actually pronounced as a z sound (like in English), or is that just the new Kunreisiki way of spelling it (which completely confuses me!)?Yes, it's pronounced liked an English z. The Kunreisiki spelling would be tuki and suki, pronounced differently, going to duki and zuki, pronounced the same.
By the way, what is the “nigori” rule anyway? I mean are all consonants “voiced” when another word precedes it, or only some?Rule? I don't know a hard and fast rule. You just get a feel for it after a while. And there's not always a "correct" version. Some people say fukuro shinai, some say fukuro jinai.

[Rupert Atkinson]

In Aikido, 'Tori' is a noun meaning the 'attacker.'

-dori is from the same verb (Toru) but the T changes to a D sound when it is not in the initial position, i.e. ai-hanmi katate-dori.

Rupert Atkinson

[Edward]

I have the impression that the Z in zuki sounds more like "dz", but it might depend on the person speaking style...

[Don_Modesto]

NIGORI--Thanks, Jun. I didn't know the word for it.

kaeshi --> kote Gaeshi
tsuki --> oi Zuki
sen --> san Zen (1000, 3000)
tori --> kata Dori

Also,
hyaku --> san Byaku (100, 300)
hon --> iPPon (cylindrical thing, one cylindrical thing)
hon --> sanBon (cylindrical thing, three cylindrical things)

[saltlakeaiki]

Uh oh, you've hit a nerve :)

I can't help giving the full story, for those who may be interested. This voicing phenomenon (-tori -> -dori) actually has a name in Japanese: "rendaku" (the word Jun gave, "nigori", actually just means to voice an otherwise voiceless consonant). The rule that governs it is sometimes called Lyman's Law, because it was first written about in English by an American of that name, about 100 years ago.

The way it works is actually fairly simple, although most Japanese don't know it (consciously) and would have a hard time figuring it out if you asked them. In a compound word, an initial consonant in the second element of the compound will often be voiced as long as there is no other voiced obstruent in that second element. For those who read Japanese, the way you recognize a voiced obstruent is that it's got a nigori mark (two dots or small circle) when written in kana. Other voiced sounds such as m, n, r, w do not trigger the rule.

It is also more a "negative" type constraint than a rule that tells you exactly when to add voicing. In other words, if there is a voiced obstruent later in the word, rendaku is blocked, however if there is no such sound present, sometimes the initial consonant will be voiced and sometimes not. Thus the fact that both -tori and -dori are permissible pronunciations for attacks involving a hold. I believe that in these cases where rendaku is not blocked by the rule, whether to voice or not maybe sometimes be indicated lexically (i.e. it comes built-in to how the word is stored in native speakers' heads), or sometimes may be controlled by dialect variation.

Hope this has been interesting for the non-linguistics geeks among you :)

[akiy]

Hi David,

Thanks for the clarifications! Very interesting stuff.

-- Jun

[Charles Hill]

David,

Did you used to work for Asahi in Tokyo?

Charles Hill

[saltlakeaiki]

As a matter of fact I did... hey, I know you from Endo Sensei's seminars at Saku, right? I'll private-message you my email address so we don't take this thread too far off topic :D