View Full Version : Informal poll, who would you rather have?

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11-30-2003, 05:50 PM
Hello everyone,

Out of curiousity, I would like to know who you would train with given certain perimeters. Say the dojo fees are the same, the distance to your home/commute the same, the number of students the same, etc. Who would you prefer to train under:

A. A teacher with 25-years of experience but only a nidan. Great teacher, very helpful and insightful, but absolutely no panache, no flash. Emphasis more on proper technique and less show.

B. A younger teacher, say training 15-years, but a yondan. Again, great teacher and very helpful and insightful. Quite flashy in movement. Emphasis on proper technique but in a showy manner.

Please think about it and provide your answers. Once there are a number of them, I'll continue with my idea on this thread.

Thanks for your indulgence! Rachel

11-30-2003, 06:35 PM
Well, I would love to choose your options, but my sensei right now is a B in years of experience but is an A in manners and attitude. He's not even a 4-dan yet.

Brian Crowley
11-30-2003, 06:54 PM
Usual disclaimer: I would NEVER ever make an actual decison based only on these facts. Personality and other experience of the teacher & other students, stylistic preferences, methods of training, dedication to teaching, etc. would be some (of many) additional important facts I would consider.

Having said that, if I HAD to choose based only on these facts I would pick the higher ranked, based on the hope that his demonstrated talent, dedication & ambition would ultimately result in better instruction.

Deb Fisher
11-30-2003, 07:59 PM
Flashiness would be very distracting for me.... I would go for Door Number One.

Jeanne Shepard
11-30-2003, 08:04 PM
Hard to say, with info given!


11-30-2003, 08:33 PM
With the same disclaimer as expressed above, I would go for the greater experience. I'm not really sure what flashy means, though.

The most important question remains unanswered though....who is the better teacher?

11-30-2003, 09:11 PM
i pick A, why? because my teacher is exactly the 'A' type and i'm very happy to train under him.

11-30-2003, 10:30 PM
I'd also like to tag along on the above disclaimer. If I had to choose only on the given criteria I would probably choose A.


Lan Powers
12-01-2003, 12:02 AM
From the info in your post.......A

But it really depends on who you learn the most readily from.

My Sensei is an A and patient enough for my poor learning skills to learn from.
I need that.


12-01-2003, 12:26 AM
let's seee...

rachel, when you say 'flashy'

what do you mean exactly?

A hakama with glitters? :)

about your hypothetical situation;

since they're both great teachers and very insightful, i'll go to both

dojo fees don't matter to me, distance does.

12-01-2003, 04:26 AM
For me the answer has to be 'A' - I'd much rather have substance without style than style without substance.

12-01-2003, 06:11 AM
Okay, interesting replies.

What I mean by "flashy" is the person who everyone in the dojo wants to be like. You know, the one everyone ooos and ahhs about. We all have them, we all love their flying ukemi and presence. The "A" teacher on the other hand is extremely understated, very powerful and very centered. The "A" teacher doesn't stand out in a crowd. It is more when you train with him that you realize how damned good he really is. I think we have all met these people too.

Thanks for your continued indulgence.


12-01-2003, 07:32 AM
I believe when the student is ready the teacher appears. i.e. the grade of instructor is irrelevant. There are lots of low grade instructors which are good teachers, or alternatively, have something new to offer you which particularly suits you - not all 3rd Dans are the same, let alone 6th dans. For example, when regularly see an instructor who, when I started, I didn't think was very good. Whether he's changed or I've changed I'm not sure (probably both), but currently I feel I am getting alot out of their instruction.

Advice? Follow your instincts.


12-01-2003, 08:29 AM
Ah. Based on your description Rachel, I am even more apt to go with Door #1.

Before I delve in any further, I'd like to point one thing out - the only reason I selected the greater experience was because I didn't have much else to go on. I will never feel that an instructor, or an uke/nage has nothing to offer me in terms of instruction. The experience was a tiebreaker.

I would select the "A" instructor for two reasons:

1) The implied focus on basics, centering and effectiveness. While I would hope that any qualified instructor would focus on these things, it sounds to me like the "A" instructor is one of those martial arts teachers that constantly goes back to basics. I like that.

2) I am never going to fly, and trying to (which I know I would :-) ) would be a distraction. With the "A" instructor I would probably be trying to emulate something a little more achievable.

12-01-2003, 10:43 AM
I would go for option A as I think the sensei is more realistic in practicing Aikido. Aikido is a martial art, thus we are to train honestly. I strongly believed in simple effective techniques. Flashy and high flyer ukemis are bonus.

Dario Rosati
12-01-2003, 11:35 AM
Door #1 for me, hands down.

Experience is far better than rank... many over 3rd dan titles are given anyway more for political reasons than for real talent, skill and mastery in teaching...


Hanna B
12-01-2003, 05:43 PM
I do not like what kind of group teacher B sonetimes build around him. I most often prefer the dojos of teacher A.

Another factor I would take in consideration would be dojo size. If one dojo was big and the other small, I am likely to head for the smaller place.

12-01-2003, 06:07 PM
To me, neither time spent in the art nor rank really translates to whether I want to study under that person, so I'd personally factor those two things out of the question.

Also, Rachel indicates that both of these people are a "great teacher and very helpful and insightful." The only difference, then, is that whether I prefer someone who is "flashy" to someone who isn't.

It seems to me that this is already a loaded question. "Flashy" connotes to me an excess of unnecessary fluorishes and such. I wonder how people might have reacted had the first instructor in her question been labeled as "stodgy" or perhaps "boring"?

Furthermore, I've been happy training with people who might be called "flashy" and also those who might be called "stodgy." On the other hand, I've also trained with people in both camps whom I probably would not train under, either.

So, in other words, I guess all I'm going to be able to say is that I'd have to see and experience these two folks before I could make any substantial comment...


-- Jun

12-01-2003, 06:17 PM
I would go with A.

all other things being equal, rank doesn't mean squat in this case.




of course, I should make the disclaimer that I happen to be a nidan in charge of a club and our techniques are not flashy, just effective.

:p :D

12-01-2003, 06:24 PM
Okay Jun!

Person A is a frumpy older man with a bit of a beer gut, but very strong technique and basics.

Person B is a young guy who looks really good and has strong technique, but adds flourish where it is not needed.

I was planning on going somewhere with this line of reasoning, however I might not have staged the question properly to begin with and made Person A out to be the one everyone would lean towards.

Remember this is a hypothetical situation and you have to chose one or the other. Both are really good teachers; one is just without any flourish, or maybe even "sharpness", but has a wealth of experience and not much rank. The other is younger and more of a "elite" type martial artist, with quite a significant less amount of experience, but with a higher rank.

Still voting overwhelmingly for A?

12-01-2003, 06:39 PM
of course, I should make the disclaimer that I happen to be a nidan in charge of a club and our techniques are not flashy, just effective.
Cue ORE music?

Actually, Rachel, I find your question quite interesting! I hope you didn't find my post annoying... I'm curious to see how this discussion develops.

-- Jun, off to the dojo

Jeanne Shepard
12-01-2003, 07:38 PM

do you have specific individuals in mind? Not to name, but because these seem to be real "types" to you and I wonder if you offer these as examples from personal experience.


12-01-2003, 08:37 PM
I've seen enough people who are completely unassuming outside the dojo, who literally can send me flying on the mat. I also know an Iaido nidan who waited 17 years after his shodan to test. You're asking us to choose between a Porsche and a minivan, effectively. I vote for a couple of test rides.


12-01-2003, 08:40 PM
Jun's initial post stated my position, and much more eloquently than I would have. The interesting thing is it seems almost everyone gets the hives when presented with "flashy." I tend to roll my eyes when someone is showboating, but there's nothing wrong with being flashy as long as you can back it up on a consistent basis.

I'd have to get thumped by both instructors and their students to get a clearer picture of whose aikido I'd want to steal.

12-01-2003, 09:56 PM
As pointed out, it's a loaded question.

Besides, we all have such incredibly large egos that we'd never admit we were interested in something "flashy".

12-01-2003, 10:39 PM
Besides, we all have such incredibly large egos that we'd never admit we were interested in something "flashy".
Heh. I sometimes like flashy... Some teachers I know will suddenly go into "Combatto" mode during their seminars and show some pretty flashy (but effective) stuff. I still can't get the tantodori using only my feet...

-- Jun

12-02-2003, 12:22 AM
Heh. I sometimes like flashy... Some teachers I know will suddenly go into "Combatto" mode during their seminars and show some pretty flashy (but effective) stuff. I still can't get the tantodori using only my feet...
One honest person in the group. :D

12-02-2003, 01:08 AM
A/B what's the difference so long as you continue redefining your abilities? Aikido will grow out of all it's teachers, young and old, yudansha and whatnot, rank is only what you make of it; it's the "Do" that matters.

aubrey bannah
12-02-2003, 01:19 AM
I'll have to go with the higher rank instructor. "A" would have to be a gifted instructor to go with him, and what dojocho of a international org would allow a good instructor to stay at 2nd dan, let along a gifed instructor. My only real queston with instructors is who IS their teacher.

12-02-2003, 02:08 AM
I would choose the one that better suits my interest in style of aikido. Cannot choose based on the information at hand and I would therefore have to take a couple of lessons from both of the instructors first.

12-02-2003, 02:34 AM
since no one's voting for B guy...

I like flashy techniques
can't live without them...

what's the point of learning aikido if you can't amaze people every now and then?

remember that aikido is a martial "ART"

12-02-2003, 03:16 AM
Yeah, it impresses the womenfolk...what other reason do you need? Maybe Jun can tell us about the massive increase in his dating frequency after he started being flashy in aikido... :D

12-02-2003, 03:49 AM
First, it seems to me that Rachel really wants us to vote for A. Second, I myself would like to train with both, but if I have absolutely to choose one, I would go for B. I am aware that A is probably the better choice with solid basics and strong technique, but B is probably more fun with irrealistic but breath-taking ukemi, and flashy extravagant techniques. So basically I would chose fun over quality. Anyway that's why I practice aikido, to have fun.

12-02-2003, 05:20 AM
Hello Edward, thanks for your comments everyone. No, I don't want anyone to chose "A", but I think I set up my own prejudice by the way I phrased the question! Sorry, that wasn't my intention.

Both have substance, both are about equal in their abilities, one has rank and better physical prowress, the other has more experience, less rank and very quiet mannerisms on the mat. Still a hypothetical.

Please, I am not asking advice on whom to train with, this is a hypothetical exercise trying to get at peoples perceptions on whom the would honestly be drawn to over the other and why.

Thanks again for the continued indulgence!

L. Camejo
12-02-2003, 08:09 AM
Personally I'd be drawn to the less flashy one. To me, true strength is silent and knows itself and does not have to show off at every juncture. To me, flashiness is like ice cream - sweet to the senses, with not much nutritional content, and melts when placed in the heat. :)

This is an interesting question to me, cuz its exactly how I chose my dojo many years ago. Was faced with flashy, deadly, effective, ninja-looking aikijujutsu on the one hand - which was very impressive, and was also faced with clean, precise, controlled and deceptively effortless Aikido on the other hand.

One had an obvious outward power, the other had a steady, calm, subtle power. I chose the subtler one and have had absolutely no regrets.

Funny, my Aikido sensei thought I would have gone the other way when I showed up to class the next day. :)

Not to mention, I have yet to meet a flashy martial artist who could hold their own against an almost equally skilled realist.

Just my thoughts.


12-02-2003, 09:50 AM
...trying to get at peoples perceptions on whom the would honestly be drawn to over the other and why.
Oops, I didn't give my "why". Mostly because if given the choice of the type of instructor I'd like to be, it would be A.

I will agree with Erik and Jun (and others) that flash is fun. Every so often sensei will bust out with something off-the-wall and it's a blast to practice it, but I don't think I'd want to train it like that all the time.


Cliff Geysels
12-02-2003, 10:46 AM
Just a remark with description B: fifteen years of training and already yondan?!

Ted Marr
12-02-2003, 11:06 AM
OK, since we're discarding issues of who has "better" technique, as measured by how it feels to get thrown around by these people, we can devolve to secondary issues.

First, your style will eventually come to resemble that of your teacher, so really any expression of preference is to become like one or the other of these people. Given that, I'd want to be the guy who had practiced forever and just stopped caring about rank at some point.

Second, I know that in a lot of cases, people who naturally excel at something for whatever reason often don't make terribly good teachers of it. The more problems you have to work through, the more you know the problems that other people might have.

Third, when you're comparing across styles of martial arts, and even across organizations that have different ranking schema, the most often used, and most reliable measure of "how good" a person is is how long the person has been studying.

Lastly, I have seen the "sensei belly" effect quite often... I have a pet theory that as your practice gets better, you use less energy to accomplish the same thing. As a result, this thing that you were doing as your sole form of exercise in your youth (4 days a week of Aikido) suddenly isn't burning the same amount of calories anymore. If intake doesn't drop, or if your practice isn't supplemented with some time on a stairmaster, you get a bit of a gut. If this is true, you might actually look for a bit of a belly as quality assurance on your teachers. That, or you can say that I'm just trying to set up an excuse for myself 10 or so years in advance *grin*

Long story short, I'll go with A

12-02-2003, 11:09 AM
It's trendy to say A because it's politically correct to poo poo "flash". So I had a bit of a think about that.

Then I though, "screw you guys, I'm going with flashy. Flashy will keep the juices going".

But then I realized that I'd probably feel like a klutz around a guy like that.

Wouldn't learn a great deal that way.

Also, I'm not much for flashy techs, rather simple techniques done with panache (ease, fluidity, flow etc)

Given the limited info then chalk another one up for A.

Addendum: Does "flashiness" extend to basic personality? If so, how do you define it? Outgoing, friendly etc. If so, I'm changing my vote back to B. Above all, personality counts.

(hey, ambiguous questions get non committal answers ;-)

Deb Fisher
12-02-2003, 01:03 PM
Since everyone's jumping all over the word flashy...

I am already flashy in other parts of my life (if by flashy we mean flourishy, charismatic and confident). I certainly don't want to disparage my own flashiness, but I will say that I am taking aikido (an art in which I am all flail and no flash) because I want to become more than flashy overall. I want to learn how not to be that great at something and love it anyway, to be deeper than a flashy person might be, to be unconfident.

So I still choose A.

Sharon Seymour
12-02-2003, 07:49 PM
Guess I'll join the fence-sitters here. I'd have to go to the person's dojo and experience one of their classes. Years and rank are certainly a consideration, but the "feel" of the dojo is very important to me.

Interesting question ... thanks!

kung fu hamster
12-03-2003, 09:52 AM
I’m going to go out on a limb and try to imagine how my own teachers would respond. I think they might say something like, “Same aikido, different flavors. Both types of instructors attract students. The real question is, how can we, as teachers with different ‘flavors’, work together cooperatively to give the students the best training possible, and what steps can we take to make the highest quality training available for people in the future?” People surely do have different styles - I've been hearing the word 'non-discrimination' in our zen studies lately and been pondering it's meanings and applications...

12-03-2003, 11:20 AM
I'll go for A.

Why? My current teacher is A type & i feel that my training under him is worth everything. (i can't say every penny coz it's free :)). He's old, low in rank, teaches boring stuff, but a very good teacher. He is kinda flashy too... but from the inside. (you just know he is a good & nice person -just because-).

My former teacher is B type. I had a good time training with him too, .. but i just don't get the flashiness. hahaha..

(it's like he's really trying to be flashy.. and it feels fake sometimes)

Lan Powers
12-03-2003, 06:11 PM
OK Rachel.........drumroll please, as the troops can't stand much more suspense. :)

Have the answers to this question given you the info/insight/"feel for..." etc. you need?

The question is concerning the nature of what kind of person you wish to emulate, more than anything else, I think. Equal skill-just personality differances.

Interesting idea........I keep seeing the differance as more stark than you probably intended.....(Mr. Muyagi vs. the Cobra dojo-cho)


Funny how thoughts roam, huh?


12-03-2003, 06:38 PM
Hi Lan,

Yes, I've been thinking of my response all day (in between my work of course), but the poll actually turned out to be quite different than what I had expected, so now I have to really take some time and formulate my response. It will be forthcoming in the next day or two (I am in class all day tomorrow and friday).

In the meantime, please keep them coming.

I have found the responses really interesting, and frankly there is a lot more maturity and insight out here in the responses than I had expected. Glad to be hearing all this from you folks!


12-04-2003, 12:34 PM
I would pick the one that I click with most on a personal level. For me it's not about "experience" or "rank" as both are milseading indicators for picking a teacher.

If one is looking for a teacher and wishes to become a student, I think they need to decide which student - teacher relationship is a better fit for them.


John Boswell
12-05-2003, 11:34 AM
As given in my signature, I'm a big believer in experience as much as I am of knowledge of things.

For an instructor to be young, gifted, talented, strong in body and throws in flash for good presentation? (Instructor B) I'd have to ask why this guy was 1... in such a hurry to attain rank within 15 years and 2... what purpose is there in presentaion and flash? Is there a purpose to it?

As for Instructor A who has some rank but is older, more strict and definitly grounded in the basics as well as an all around knowledge of technique... that's all I'm looking for. To associated with Hombu is also a factor I'd look for, personally. I have a great deal of respect for many of the Sensei in the world, but you have to admit... Doshu rocks! :D

12-05-2003, 01:47 PM

your question is really a very deep.

I have noticed something in all martial arts - maybe you have had this experience.

Ever been to a seminar where there are various instructors (some flashy, some not, some powerful, some subtle, whatever.) - and been able to pick out their students without initially knowing or seeing some type of insignia? In other words just by their demeanor not necessarily their technique? I have.

I prefer the understated and profient instructor. I receive information better that way and I gravitate more towards that type of personality. I prefer to take the simple and make it mine:-)

12-05-2003, 07:31 PM
When I started this thread, I thought the responses would be quite different than they are. I had an objective in mind, and your thoughtful and often insightful responses have changed my way of thinking to a large degree. I truly thought the majority of readers would be more interested in the flashier and younger teacher than the more staid but experienced teacher. I thought rank really does matter, but at least on paper (or on the web) that appears not to be the case.

The whole thing that got me thinking about this, and posing the question, is in regards to a teacher whom I know and respect. This teacher has a full-time dojo and has been practicing for upwards of thirty years. For whatever reason, s/he seems to have been overlooked. This person is understated and has no flash; I’ve even heard folks on the mat rather disparaging of this individual, yet I have absolutely no doubt in my mind of the effectiveness of this person’s technique and the ability to impart knowledge to the students. I think it is precisely because this person is middle-aged, slightly overweight, and lacking in any flash, that they have been overlooked. The younger teachers in the organization are invited to teach at seminars, and this person attends, but rarely seems to teach. It has dismayed me for years, as I have never really understood why this happened. I have also been surprised that this individual was, until fairly recently, a 3rd Dan, when many of the younger teachers were higher ranking (4th and 5th Dan) with far less experience (even 15-years in one instance). Because of all of this, I was deducing that something is missing, and thought it was the lack of flash, or maybe “presence”.

I see a whole new generation of young teachers coming up who have a certain spark to them. Something that makes them interesting to watch, something with a bit of flash even (this is part of what I define as flash; the other part I define as flash has to do with the embellishment of a technique or as uke, where not needed). Often these younger teachers have a ton of energy and have a lot of really good things to pass on. They have a lot to offer. So does the aforementioned instructor.

So anyway, these were my musings. From the responses in this thread, it appears however that I was wrong in my assumption that most folk would prefer to train with the younger, higher-ranked and maybe more vigorous teacher than the lower ranked and more experienced teacher. The point I was going to make, but cannot now, is that rank does matter (and this was in response to an earlier thread where rank was debated). So, you all taught me a lesson over the last week.

Best regards to all, Rachel

12-05-2003, 08:24 PM
Hello Ms Massey

You pose an interesting question. From my perspective I regard myself as a student of aikido and regardless of the "flashyness" of the younger instructor or the experience of the older instructor, I am sure there is something that I could learn from both.

I guess I am looking for the substance in what they have to offer, whether they be the instructor or a training partner.

For me its not their rank but what they contribute to the energy of the dojo.

As a result, I don't have any preference per se.

Happy training :)

12-05-2003, 08:48 PM
Thank you Mayland, I thought that it was interesting, and if I found it so, others would too. It is satisfying to see other people chime in and express their opinions on the matter. I really don't think one way is correct, or the other incorrect; it is purely our preferences. What was actually most interesting to me about this thread was how my preconceived ideas could be completely wrong! Thank you for contributing to the thread; you always have good things to say. Rachel

12-06-2003, 12:54 AM
Something I just thought about: I answered the question as if I were deciding between the two instructors as I am now, with just over 7 years of aikido practice. I may have answered differently 8 years ago.


12-06-2003, 01:25 AM
maybe the mentioned no-flash teacher didn't wan't to teach seminars? because there's always some politics involved in aikido dojo gatherings

and some people try to avoid that

L. Camejo
12-06-2003, 01:25 AM
Hi Rachel,

Regarding the situation you indicated above, could it be that its not a matter of flash or presence at all that has held the sensei back from increasing rank?

I know generally in most martial arts, rankings in the range of 4th Dan and upward have not only to do with your abilities and training time, but what you have done to promote the art/style in a unique way etc. In other words, politics.

Just something that hit me when I read your response, that's all.


12-06-2003, 05:44 AM
I know generally in most martial arts, rankings in the range of 4th Dan and upward have not only to do with your abilities and training time, but what you have done to promote the art/style in a unique way etc. In other words, politics.

In this instance, the teacher has contributed a fair amount (I don't know the workings of this teachers mind), and has sucessfully run a dojo for at least 10 years. There is undoubtedly a lot that I don't know about the situation; it is just something that has struck me over the years.
Something I just thought about : I answered the question as if I were deciding between the two instructors as I am now, with just over 7 years of aikido practice. I may have answered differently 8 years ago.

Good point! The people who answered this poll have mostly been practicing for quite awhile, so perhaps we are a bit skewed on this, and don't really have the majority answers.

I have certainly found in the past that when people make comments about folks they've seen on the mat (this is new folks, or newer ones), that they are invariably drawn to the physically elite and not necessarily the teacher.

Thanks for all the comments!

12-06-2003, 06:14 AM
I'd have to ask why this guy was 1... in such a hurry to attain rank within 15 years and 2... what purpose is there in presentaion and flash? Is there a purpose to it?
I personally think that it is not unusual to reach the rank of 4th dan after 15 years of training. It is quite normal actually.

I myself would ask the opposite. An instructor with 25 years of experience should be at least 6-7 dan. The fact that he is still 2nd dan raises questions for me about his character as he probably must have some kind of issues with his organization.

12-06-2003, 06:29 AM
Hello Edward, you said An instructor with 25 years of experience should be at least 6-7 dan. The fact that he is still 2nd dan raises questions for me about his character as he probably must have some kind of issues with his organization. I think it depends on organization to organization how quickly one obtains rank. For the most part, in the org I belong to, it takes about 14-17 years to get to sandan, and about 20 to get to yondan (typically, not always). Sometimes it takes considerably longer, in particular if one's teacher doesn't recommend for one reason or another, that his/her students test. I know personally of one teacher who ignores his older students in favor of the young ones, and so that there is a student who has been training diligently for 15+ years who is only a shodan, due to this teachers dismissal of him (and his aikido is very good!). Happens to be that this fellow is 55 or so years old and started aikido around 35 (he was off for a few years in the 80's). This happens all the time.

L. Camejo
12-06-2003, 06:58 AM
Personally I don't interpret rank as an indicator of teaching ability, merely time spent training and ability to complete syllabus requirements.

Personally, I've met Yondans whose Aikido would not stand up against some Ikkyus I know of. I guess this is part of why training a few classes with each person was a common answer on this thread. I default to the Gracie quote "The belt only covers 2 inches of your butt, the rest you gotta back up with skill.":)

Gambatte and train hard.


Hanna B
12-06-2003, 07:09 AM
Rachel, the answers we give you here do not really say which choice we would do in reality. They say what choice we like to think we would make...

Another thing that matters when we judge a teacher is charisma (if you say that in English). It does not matter when you've gotten to know your teacher if he has charisma or not, but as they say - you never get a second chance to make a first impression.

12-06-2003, 07:22 AM
Hi Hanna :)

You make an excellent point. If you aren't impressed by the teacher when you first see him/her, then most likely you aren't going to give this person a try.

Personally I am not swayed by presence or charisma (too much, I admit to "somewhat") as much as I am swayed by a quietness and calmness of a person. I love to see a warm smile free of artiface. I'll train all day long with someone who emits warmth, and shy away from a fierce type of person (who of course might be the superior teacher), but that is just me.

Good point.

12-06-2003, 10:04 AM
...My only real queston with instructors is who IS their teacher.Been thinking about that question recently. The answer I came up with is this:

You learn by making mistakes. When you are learning Aikido you are trying to correct your own mistakes. When you are teaching Aikido you are trying to correct the mistakes of a roomful of people.

So any honest instructor will tell you that they learn more from their students than their students learn from them.

:cool: cool