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View Full Version : The Principle of Ten

tedehara

11-20-2003, 10:26 PM

Chris Li started the thread on Tora no Maki (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2348). I was going to reply but discovered I couldn't because it was posted on the Voices of Experience area, so I didn't respond.

Just recently someone heard me talking about the Principle of Ten and pointed this out to me.

The principle of 10 states that if you're attacked with a power of 2 you meet it with a power 8. If you're attacked with power 5, you respond with power 5. Always equalize the opposing force to 10. This is a secret of Aikido, but it's impossible to do.

Everybody is different and you can't be everybody's friend. The only thing you can do is put yourself in accord with universal principles. Once that is done, others will be in harmony with you. Therefore the word Aikido is actually about putting yourself in harmony with the Universal Ki.

The last two paragraphs are a paraphrase from an introduction to one of K. Tohei's books. I'm not quoting because of the copyright, however you can see the flow of thought.

Just recently someone heard me talking about the Principle of Ten and pointed this out to me.

The principle of 10 states that if you're attacked with a power of 2 you meet it with a power 8. If you're attacked with power 5, you respond with power 5. Always equalize the opposing force to 10. This is a secret of Aikido, but it's impossible to do.

Everybody is different and you can't be everybody's friend. The only thing you can do is put yourself in accord with universal principles. Once that is done, others will be in harmony with you. Therefore the word Aikido is actually about putting yourself in harmony with the Universal Ki.

The last two paragraphs are a paraphrase from an introduction to one of K. Tohei's books. I'm not quoting because of the copyright, however you can see the flow of thought.

Thalib

11-20-2003, 10:55 PM

I would like to hear more of this actually.

So if one is overpowered by the power of 10, approach nothingness.

It is not just difficult to do, it is difficult to understand. The concept is so simple, yet...

Basically one compliments the other, one completes the other, to be in harmony. I don't believe that the 10 numbers represent scales or levels or any measurement in that manner.

So one "fills" in the missing pieces, there are no need to add anymore. Interesting.

So if one is overpowered by the power of 10, approach nothingness.

It is not just difficult to do, it is difficult to understand. The concept is so simple, yet...

Basically one compliments the other, one completes the other, to be in harmony. I don't believe that the 10 numbers represent scales or levels or any measurement in that manner.

So one "fills" in the missing pieces, there are no need to add anymore. Interesting.

kung fu hamster

11-21-2003, 08:08 AM

I don't think I understand. Can you give me an example of 'if he attacks me with a power of 1 I attack him with a power of 9." The inequity in force at that pole seems unbalanced to me...? Can you explain further?

Thalib

11-21-2003, 08:50 AM

I don't exactly know what "the principle of ten" is, but by the way Ehara-san explained it, the numbers are not a way of measurement. I mean not as in 1 less than 9 type deal.

In order to get to 10, 1 is a compliment of 9, and 9 is a compliment of 1, and so on:

_________

1&9 | 9&1

2&8 | 8&2

3&7 | 7&3

4&6 | 6&4

5&5 | 5&5

---------

Remember trigonometry? Complimentary angles and supplementary angles.

In order to get to 10, 1 is a compliment of 9, and 9 is a compliment of 1, and so on:

_________

1&9 | 9&1

2&8 | 8&2

3&7 | 7&3

4&6 | 6&4

5&5 | 5&5

---------

Remember trigonometry? Complimentary angles and supplementary angles.

paw

11-21-2003, 09:20 AM

As best I understand it, the point of the princple is maximum efficiency.

If the assumption is that it takes 10 total units to throw someone, if they attack with 8 units, one only needs to use 2 units to generate the 10 total units needed to throw.

IMO, it's just made-up example to teach a principle, as such it grossly simplifies a number of things

Regards,

Paul

If the assumption is that it takes 10 total units to throw someone, if they attack with 8 units, one only needs to use 2 units to generate the 10 total units needed to throw.

IMO, it's just made-up example to teach a principle, as such it grossly simplifies a number of things

Regards,

Paul

Don_Modesto

11-21-2003, 10:03 AM

The principle of 10 states that if you're attacked with a power of 2 you meet it with a power 8.... This is a secret of Aikido, but it's impossible to do....a paraphrase from an introduction to one of K. Tohei's books. I'm not quoting because of the copyright, however you can see the flow of thought.

Isn't this the way Kano described the method of judo (very rationally for his time)?

Isn't this the way Kano described the method of judo (very rationally for his time)?

mj

11-21-2003, 10:08 AM

Yup. I can't swear to it but I am pretty sure it is in the Kodokan book.

akiy

11-21-2003, 10:14 AM

This topic reminds me of something I wrote a couple of weeks back on Aikido-L:

One definition of "ai" in "aikido" that I've heard is that rather than it mean "to blend" or any such, it more means "to match" -- like two gears coming to interlock together or two columns of numbers adding up to the same amount. As such, rather than the old aikido arithmetic of "2+8=10," "5+5=10," and "9+1=10," I think it's more like "2-2=0," "5-5=0," and "9-9=0."

Just my thoughts...

-- Jun

One definition of "ai" in "aikido" that I've heard is that rather than it mean "to blend" or any such, it more means "to match" -- like two gears coming to interlock together or two columns of numbers adding up to the same amount. As such, rather than the old aikido arithmetic of "2+8=10," "5+5=10," and "9+1=10," I think it's more like "2-2=0," "5-5=0," and "9-9=0."

Just my thoughts...

-- Jun

tedehara

11-21-2003, 03:53 PM

The first time I heard about this was when I asked my sensei a question. I was having trouble with the uke attacking quickly. I knew if he attacked quickly and I moved quickly, I would lose him because he would spin-out from the throw as a result of the total force.

My sensei suggested I think of the situation as a 10. If the uke moves quickly at 7, I move slower at 3. However I needed to move earlier because I'm moving slower. That's where the skill comes in. If the uke attacks slower than normal at 4 then I need to move faster than normal at 6.

As Talib mentioned, the numbers don't really mean anything in a mathematical sense. What it does do is assume a relationship between uke and nage. They are not considered separately, but thought of as one unit.

This reminds me of a story I heard about O Sensei teaching in Hawaii. The uke attacked him six different times and he threw him using six different techniques. After the last throw, O Sensei said "Do that" and walked away.

The confused students found a spokesman who approached O Sensei and asked him, "Did you want us to do all six throws or just the last one?"

"Oh," replied O Sensei, "Just do the last throw. I had to do the others because his (uke) ki changed."

My sensei suggested I think of the situation as a 10. If the uke moves quickly at 7, I move slower at 3. However I needed to move earlier because I'm moving slower. That's where the skill comes in. If the uke attacks slower than normal at 4 then I need to move faster than normal at 6.

As Talib mentioned, the numbers don't really mean anything in a mathematical sense. What it does do is assume a relationship between uke and nage. They are not considered separately, but thought of as one unit.

This reminds me of a story I heard about O Sensei teaching in Hawaii. The uke attacked him six different times and he threw him using six different techniques. After the last throw, O Sensei said "Do that" and walked away.

The confused students found a spokesman who approached O Sensei and asked him, "Did you want us to do all six throws or just the last one?"

"Oh," replied O Sensei, "Just do the last throw. I had to do the others because his (uke) ki changed."

otto

11-21-2003, 05:34 PM

Explaining everyday life in numbers and mathematical logics , either produce super simple concepts to grasp or very abstract ideas to understand...nothing in the middle..

My view on this would be ; and ideal aikido's response to an attack should have an inverse proportional relation to that attack , so a combination of both is zero.

Newton's Law of Action and Reaction if i remember right... I pity the guy who comes at me with less than a 4 then :).

My view on this would be ; and ideal aikido's response to an attack should have an inverse proportional relation to that attack , so a combination of both is zero.

Newton's Law of Action and Reaction if i remember right... I pity the guy who comes at me with less than a 4 then :).

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