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PaulieWalnuts
11-06-2003, 03:42 AM
Just heard the good news about Hitohiro leaving the aikikai and setting up the new organisation "

IWAMA SHINSHIN AIKI SHURENKAI

About bloody time we heard some more, This is great news for Aikido,now we know what sensei wants this has made me very happy cant wait to train in the tanren dojo its a great dojo.If any uchideshi have had the privlage of seeing sensei's own dojo you will know what i mean. dont know werehe'll teach buki waza though. maybe well still use the aiki dojo car park.As for losing the aiki dojo who cares we still have sensei and his amazing love for teaching. this is a message from one of sensei's very happy deshi. what are peoples thoughts on this i think this maybe good for both aikikai and iwama aiki

mj
11-06-2003, 04:15 AM
Why did they lose the other dojo?

aikidoc
11-06-2003, 09:54 AM
I have seen occasional references to this in the past. What has happened? Did Saito's son split totally with the aikikai or did he just give up the Iwama dojo? It would surprise me if there was a split with the aikikai since his father was such a staunch supporter of O'Sensei and the aikikai in the past. Anyone know the real story?

PaulieWalnuts
11-06-2003, 10:08 AM
Think of it more as splitting from the hombu and doshu.wether sensei was pushed out of the dojo or chose to leave is irelevent. what matters is real Iwama style aikido will carry on in its birth place. As for saito sensei being a big suporter of the aikikai i dont really know how true that would be as he didnt like most of the aiki coming out of the hombu in the 80s and 90s. he was probably a suporter of the organization idea behind the aikikai but not hombu aikido.But that should not be important some people like both style some like only one thats life

L. Camejo
11-06-2003, 10:20 AM
Is there any link online where we can get the story of this? Sounds interesting.

From my limited knowledge of M. Saito I think he supported and preserved the Aikido he learnt from M. Ueshiba, which may not be the same thing that was taught at hombu after O-Sensei's death.

Of course I don't pretend to know a lot about Aikikai and it's politics.

More info on this would be nice though.

L.C.:ai::ki:

mj
11-06-2003, 10:37 AM
At a recent seminar, a 7th dan Iwama teacher was saying that Osensei's other uchideshi (he named names but I will not) had not understood what Osensei was teaching.

This was on the cards after Saito died.

I don't think there is any such thing as 'honbu aikido' though. imo

Chris Li
11-06-2003, 12:12 PM
This is great news for Aikido
Great news! Just what every martial art needs - more divisions :).

Best,

Chris

ikkainogakusei
11-06-2003, 12:17 PM
Speaking as an aikidoka who practices the Iwama facet of aikido, I think that it is important to remember the 'ai' in aikido is not just about harmony of the body, but also harmony of the mind, and relation to our fellows.

Rejection and apathy seem to run counter to the 'ai' aspect and I would hope that any person involved would examine their part in the ordeal. Still, harmony is dynamic, so all parties are responsible for blending and adjusting.

I do not know the 'real' story of this move, nor do I think most of us will ever.I'll still accent on my preferred Iwama forms, and hold M. Saito and H. Saito in very high esteem, but I'll not question the legitimacy of any other style, nor will I think of myself as separate from any other aikidoka.

I would encourage all who have strong feelings about this subject to examine the origin of those feelings and perspectives, and begin to relate them to the 'ai' aspect.

:ai:

mj
11-06-2003, 12:18 PM
http://aikido-france.net/welcome/communique/200311/

Nafis Zahir
11-06-2003, 02:04 PM
Please read my response to the post under Hitohiro Shihan. It's post #2. What do you think? I've done both styles.

Steven
11-06-2003, 02:16 PM
So .. does this mean that folks who received dan rankings under Saito Sensei from the Aikikai, are no longer recognized by the Aikikai?

ikkainogakusei
11-06-2003, 02:21 PM
Please read my response to the post under Hitohiro Shihan. It's post #2. What do you think? I've done both styles.
I think what stands out to me is the idea that people say "my aikido is the True Aikido". I understand that a person can be passionate and feel loyal to their form and to their teacher, but noone is exactly O'Sensei in the sense that they do not have his body or his experiences, so we are our own manifestations of O'Sensei in the best manner that we can recreate.

So passion and determination can cause situations which stunt harmonic growth. Bummer.

Still, the argument that Brand x is more a true brand than Brand y can be heard from many directions and from many brands. It runs quite similarly along the fundamantalist lines of various religions. We do not know the details and truly I cannot assume that any one 'side' is solely in power to have made the decisions that have lead to this new dynamic.

s:ai: gh

Nafis Zahir
11-06-2003, 02:28 PM
I think what stands out to me is the idea that people say "my aikido is the True Aikido". I understand that a person can be passionate and feel loyal to their form and to their teacher, but noone is exactly O'Sensei in the sense that they do not have his body or his experiences, so we are our own manifestations of O'Sensei in the best manner that we can recreate.

So passion and determination can cause situations which stunt harmonic growth. Bummer.

Still, the argument that Brand x is more a true brand than Brand y can be heard from many directions and from many brands. It runs quite similarly along the fundamantalist lines of various religions. We do not know the details and truly I cannot assume that any one 'side' is solely in power to have made the decisions that have lead to this new dynamic.

I agree. Look at all the uchu deschi who trained with O'Sensei and all the different styles that they all teach now. Having trained in both styles and with other people, you can see the advantage in learning a technique in more than one way. I've done Iwama techniques at the Aikikai and they can show you why that way will not always work and it's the same at the Iwama dojo. Only at the Iwama Dojo they say no one else's technique works or is proper.

s:ai: gh

ikkainogakusei
11-06-2003, 06:41 PM
I agree. Look at all the uchu deschi who trained with O'Sensei and all the different styles that they all teach now. Having trained in both styles and with other people, you can see the advantage in learning a technique in more than one way. I've done Iwama techniques at the Aikikai and they can show you why that way will not always work and it's the same at the Iwama dojo. Only at the Iwama Dojo they say no one else's technique works or is proper.
Yes, it is important I guess to clarify (as on the other thread) those claims. I haven't heard claims such as this by any Shihan from any direction, though the undertone amongst aikidoka is pervaisive in many 'sub'styles.

I know it sounds like PC rhetoric, but I really have seen effective use of several different aikido forms and even within forms some students are more efective at using center, 3rd point, tenkan, and irimi. Some use strength, hips, speed, or leverage more effectively than others and still within one dojo I see many different takes on the same teaching.

The separatist mindset seems to run awry of the whole tenet of harmony. I get being proud of a tradition, or happy with execution of technique, but why does it have to be rated as 'better than', what is the purpose?

:straightf

L. Camejo
11-06-2003, 09:41 PM
Not that I'm even pretending to know what every other group does, but I think even Ueshiba M. realised in his lifetime that Aikido was a living, developing budo, with different students reproducing his teaching from their personal perspective. Being a creative process, this is natural.

Personally I think that separation is an important aspect of harmony. Just like conflict is a necessary element of harmony. Without understanding/utilising one, it would be very difficult (if not impossible) to manifest the other.

I think H. Saito's move may also have been the best way to maintain a peaceful position with the Aikikai, another aspect we try to train regularly.

The problem only arises when ego, emotion and politics get entwined together and we think that our way is the best way, and it does not matter if we are Aikikai, Iwama or whatever style, it's effects are the same.

I had always been impressed by M. Saito's Iwama Aikido, the bold move made by his son has just reinforced that impression. It's not the first time that one of Ueshiba M.'s students (in this case a son of one) has decided that to break ties. May be the best way to retain some degree of harmony in a situation that may have been continually strained by differing ideas on how things should be done.

Aikido is growing, there are not many things (if anything) in this universe that don't separate at some point in order to develop. Change is the only constant.

L.C.:ai::ki:

sanosuke
11-07-2003, 12:14 AM
Just heard the good news about Hitohiro leaving the aikikai and setting up the new organisation "

IWAMA SHINSHIN AIKI SHURENKAI

About bloody time we heard some more, This is great news for Aikido,
........:( ........