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Jeff Tibbetts
11-05-2003, 07:16 AM
This is a tough movie to talk about without spoiling anything. I'll wait for some other people to see it before I post my observations. Please feel free to post a reply when you've seen it, if you're going to. One thing I will say is that there is a rather interesting series of moral plays in this movie that kind of break from traditional Hollywood archetypes. I think that this was a good way to end the trilogy, and I can't think of many other ways to do it. For all the kung fu fans out there, though, there is less to look forward to here, it takes place almost entirely in the "real world" and there's less fighting going on than the other two. Overall, I think this makes the series a notch better, if viewed as a whole package. Anyway, like I said I don't want to give anything away, so please let me know when it's ok to talk about it... :)

Neil Mick
11-07-2003, 09:32 PM
I just saw it today. You're right Jeff: it's an excellent movie to end the trilogy (please, movie-gods: not a "fourth in the series," please ;) ), but I didn't get the big climax: didn't make sense.

So, how come Neo's not dead, in the end (a la what the Oracle said)? And the way he defeats Agent Smith doesn't make a lot of sense to me, either. But, I won't spoil the movie for those who haven't watched it.

Also, it sure broke the rumor going around that the "real world" is simply another level of the Matrix, and that Neo was simply another program.

In my book: it is almost worth a full price (which, in my movie-grading, is high praise indeed).

paw
11-09-2003, 06:02 PM
I guess I'm the first disenting voice.

Neil,

I believe you're incorrect about Neo.... He shares Trinity's fate.

Jeff,

Ironically, I saw this movie as a return to Hollywood archetypes. The original Matrix was much more radical. Matrix, as best I understood "The Boys" vision, was about the marriage of Hong Kong/Anime with Hollywood production values --- with a heaping dose of philosophy/religion thrown in. The original succeeded, IMO. But each subsequent chapter has been more action driven and less philosophy/character driven.

This finale? The heros racing to the rescue? Overcoming odds with daring-do at the last minute? The pauper (nameless nobody) becomes the price (big hero who saves the day) ---- I'm thinking of the "opening the gate" scene. The big rousing cheers.....That's Hollywood bay-be!...'cause they don't make 'em like that in HK.

Regards,

Paul

Jeff Tibbetts
11-09-2003, 06:36 PM
Paul, yeah... somewhat. As far as production values, it's clearly hollywood. Some elements of the story you mention are certainly familiar, as well. How could they get away from some of those scenes, though. I'm no film critic, but it has been said by people who are that you need some of those elements to make a good film. If there was no sense of urgency, would you have cared at all? As far as the cheers, well... that seems like another requirement. And it's not restricted to hollywood, when wars are over people usually cheer alot. Oh, and the pauper to prince thing makes more sense when you've seen the Animatrix, that's a story line that's been built in for some time now, and has more to do with the fate/choice concept than any rags to riches story --but they never really develop that particular story line in the main movies. So, I suppose you're certainly right about this film being different in tone from the first two, which is why I think it's good. So it may be a more normal movie on some levels; again I don't see how they could have shot or written those scenes without the sense of impending doom that you do find in so many other movies. I think the difference is in how they win the fight... or how the fight ends I should say.

Thanks for pointing some of that out, I guess I never did look at it that way. Next time I watch it I'll try to compare it with other war/action movies and see what happens :)

PhilJ
11-09-2003, 07:21 PM
Yeah, but did you see the great kotegaeshi in the Frenchman's bar? I believe Seraphim applied it, but can't remember.

My wife had good a take on the ending: Neo trapped Smith in his body, and because Smith was there, the machine plugged into Neo could erase it. I'll buy it. :)

*Phil

Neil Mick
11-09-2003, 08:45 PM
Neo trapped Smith in his body, and because Smith was there, the machine plugged into Neo could erase it. I'll buy it.
But if that's so: then why wasn't Smith erased the second he absorbed an Agent (as he did in the 2nd movie)? And: why were all the Smith's blown away, once Neo was absorbed? It didn't make sense.

But here's my explanation: Neo, being the "Source," was too big for the power of Smith to absorb. So, Smith, being like a series-circuit, shorted out.

Yeah I know: thin, but what the hey! It's show-biz, bay-bee. :)

PhilJ
11-09-2003, 09:56 PM
Well, maybe those little pulses the machine gave Neo after the 'assimilation' was what dealt the blow. And perhaps Smith was too big to handle from outside the matrix. :)

It's like a parent process maybe, in a system. Kill the parent process, all the child processes die too. Kinda like the nerd joke:

do

fork(agent_smith);

while true

Anyway, I'm sure this is being beat to death elsewhere on the 'net, ya bet? :)

Jeff Tibbetts
11-09-2003, 10:26 PM
I think you've both nailed it... and I'm sure it's being talked about on other boards. The difference is that we know about Aikido. The Aikido reference here is that Neo had to be willing to enter, willing to go to the place where he could lose. In this case, he entered the Smith program, and from there allowed himself to channel the power of the source. Sounds familiar to me.

Jeff Tibbetts
11-10-2003, 03:42 PM
Ok, so I watched it again. Paul, there are definately some scenes that are straight out of war movies and what-not, but there are still many that aren't. I think that this movie is really divided: on the one hand you have the scenes of the fight for Zion in the real world, which is all very typical (albeit well done) hollywood fare; but on the other hand you have all the scenes with Neo, which are at once both like the other Matrix movies and are entirely new at the same time. I think when I saw it, I was focusing almost entirely on the stuff that Neo was doing, and that's where I think the story really is. When you saw it, you saw more of the real-world stuff and that really is very much like hollywood archetypes. I have a tendency to quickly ignore or forget the things in movies that are not new or original (after watching movies for so long it all blurs together) and I think that this is what happened when I was thinking about the movie afterwards. So yeah, you're right on that for certain. I still do stick to the idea that there was a lot going on, particularily with Neo, that wasn't very hollywood at all, though. Anyway, thanks for making me look at the other side of it. :)

Amassus
11-10-2003, 04:27 PM
I'm glad that Neo died for the cause. Too many hollywood movies finish with the main heroes winning the day. Trinity died, Neo died. It was meant to be. They had already made their choice, as the Oracle would say ;)

I believe Neo was the link between the machines and Smith. Neo allowed the machines to cleanse the system once Smith assimilated Neo.

I have to say this...after seeing the APU by the gate in the 2nd movie, I had to see those mechs in action. My curiosity was satisfied!

..and how 'bout they way they had to be reloaded, screw being the reloading team!

PhilJ
11-10-2003, 05:22 PM
..and how 'bout they way they had to be reloaded, screw being the reloading team!
LOL :) VERY true.

That was a damn nifty part of the movie. They really had me feeling the tragedy of the defense, but it was relly slick nonetheless.

*Phil

Abasan
11-12-2003, 07:35 AM
I thought the way the sentinels drifted together in schools as very unsystematic. They could easily have swarmed everyone if they came from multiple angles. instead they just came in one stupid big chorus where every mech in that area can blow them to smithereens...

the neo and smith fight was a little to supermanlike for me. kinda defeats the purpose of the wushu thing they've been going at. still, it was pretty!

niobe... sassy lady!

Btw, my favourite part was the sword fight in animatrix. ohhh bushido orgasm!

Amassus
11-12-2003, 04:21 PM
Yeah the swarming sentinals was weird, not sure what the director was trying to do there.

Still, love those APUs.

The Smith Neo fight was far too much like Dragonball Z!

However I liked how the movie ended. I don't think it could have ended any other way.

Jeff Tibbetts
11-12-2003, 07:45 PM
I never thought that the sentinels acted all that weird, but now that you guys mentioned it they kind of did. Oh, and does anyone really have any idea when or how Smith learned to fly?

Amassus
11-12-2003, 07:56 PM
"Oh, and does anyone really have any idea when or how Smith learned to fly?"

I assumed that he advanced in power rather quickly once he realised he was outside of the 'system', remember most of the movie was continuing in the real world so Smith ahd lots of time to change the matrix how he saw fit (which he did). He basically owned the matrix by the time Neo fought him for the last time.

He was also supposed to be Neo's nemesis, so he had to at least equal Neo in power.

Jeff Tibbetts
11-13-2003, 12:19 AM
Dean, you're awesome. That makes perfect sense. Thanks.

paw
11-13-2003, 04:41 AM
The Smith Neo fight was far too much like Dragonball Z!

Dragonball Z (Unlimited) is currently in pre-production, with an anticipated 2004 release.

Abasan
11-14-2003, 01:44 AM
But if smith got so powerful after digesting the oracle, how come the oracle was such a weakling?

or maybe as smith had said, the oracle knew that smith would come and that the only way to truly defeat smith was to let him digest her so that he would then challenge neo thinking he was more powerful now and in challenging neo it was inevitable that he would try to digest neo which would then result in his own destruction.

or it was just plain dumb luck.

Amassus
11-16-2003, 08:42 PM
Glad to be of help Jeff :)