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solidsteven
10-29-2003, 12:24 PM
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?
I just cant get this question out of my head:grr:

Bronson
10-29-2003, 12:27 PM
I'd be like, "Dude, stop hitting me in the face and I'll teach you unbendable arm" :D

Bronson

Clayton Kale
10-29-2003, 01:00 PM
Avoid confrontation as much as possible. If that doesn't work, go after his legs. Don't know how much atemi your dojo uses/encourages, but a good front kick to the side of the knee will slow down anybody.

akiy
10-29-2003, 01:19 PM
The below thread has 100 posts on the subject:

http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1452

-- Jun

shihonage
10-29-2003, 01:29 PM
Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him.

twilliams423
10-29-2003, 01:35 PM
"Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him."

And this would be what kind of Aikido?

gamma80
10-29-2003, 01:52 PM
Your best chance....Do a rear break fall and play dead!

shihonage
10-29-2003, 02:32 PM
"Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him."

And this would be what kind of Aikido?
The one that has a chance if you're faced with a boxer.

Just look at the tackle as an atemi done with your whole body.

Brehan Crawford
10-29-2003, 02:38 PM
Well the best option is definitely to avoid the fight altogether. But if that's not possible, I'd say since boxing strikes are quick and short range, just get out of the way, or increase your ma ai. The boxer will have to either a: swing longer, which will give you more time to catch/deflect the punch and perform your technique of choice, or b: close the distance, at which point he'll be momentarily off-balance and you can just push or pull him over.

This is all theory, btw. I've thankfully never had to put any of it into practice aside from the first sentence.

aiki_what
10-29-2003, 02:43 PM
I just usually give my boxer a doggie treat and he leaves me alone.

aiki_what
10-29-2003, 02:44 PM
Until he wants another one.....

twilliams423
10-29-2003, 02:46 PM
I look at a tackle as exactly what it is, a tackle, which is wrestling, not atemi nor Aikido. Good Aikido has options against any kind of attacker short of abandoning Aikido for wrestling or boxing.

ikkainogakusei
10-29-2003, 02:51 PM
"Put on a boxing stance, throw 2 jabs while closing the distance, and then tackle him."

And this would be what kind of Aikido?
I'd vote for the avoid confrontation altogether. Grapple or run if diffusion fails. Boxers aren't necessarily track stars.

OTOH if you want to follow the 'aikido out the window' line already suggested, might I suggest the 9mm 'spray & pray' tactic, maybe a pipe bomb, or several starving rabid dogs....starving rabid children on ritalin, alligators, or really cross nuns.

:eek: :D ;)

itwasjustasuggestion

:ai:

shihonage
10-29-2003, 03:06 PM
I look at a tackle as exactly what it is, a tackle, which is wrestling, not atemi nor Aikido. Good Aikido has options against any kind of attacker short of abandoning Aikido for wrestling or boxing.
The "Aikidoka vs. a boxer" debate is pointless.

When you are willingly engaging a boxer in a fight, you have already abandoned the true Aikido mindset and have adopted a competitive mindset instead.

In real life there's a lot more going on than just "a boxer" "confronting" "an aikidoka".

Its one person who wants to beat the shit out of another person.

There's an intense emotional energy in a real situation. There are also all kinds of potential weapons lying around which can be used in the manner of a sword or a stick.

You may want to keep the Aikido distance where he can't reach you immediately, and rile him up emotionally to the point where he can't control himself any longer.

He will not have the patience to keep chasing you around, and instead he'll close the distance in a flash, while trying to hit you simultaneously with a dedicated, strong attack, and thats when you can apply Aikido.

But that is, of course, assuming that he doesn't have friends, or a knife, or that your wife isn't nearby, or millions of other possibilities.

Mr. Shioda covers these topics much better in his book "Aikido Shugyo" which is now available from Shindokan books online.

Apparently he dealt with a boxer who challenged him during a demo, by dodging his jab, grabbing his OTHER arm and "flattening" him with shihonage.

From my dabblings with an amateur boxing practitioner, however, I conclude that this type of feat would require the skills of someone like Mr. Shioda.

twilliams423
10-29-2003, 03:18 PM
"Apparently he dealt with a boxer who challenged him during a demo, by dodging his jab, grabbing his OTHER arm and "flattening" him with shihonage.

From my dabblings with an amateur boxing practitioner, however, this type of feat would require the skills of... Mr. Shioda."

This is exactly my point! Thank you.

L. Camejo
10-29-2003, 04:21 PM
The age old quote again - Aikido works, though your Aikido might not.

Train hard folks. Shioda's other hand shi ho nage is a good example of how Aikido works best by not letting our minds get bound into predetermined, comfortable patterns. There is no rule that means we must deal with the attacking limb at all in order to execute kuzushi and technique.

Of course I do not beleive that one needs to be Shioda or Ueshiba M. to pull these things off either, just train seriously with realism in mind, not BS-ing ourselves into looking good executing poor technique with a cooperative Uke.

Personally though, I think the best thing to use against a fast strike (if the boxer is using boxing alone) is a well timed atemi waza. Shomen ate anyone? :)

Of course self defence is not limited to any fighting style or rule, so it does not matter what a person does, except at the time of confrontation itself.

Just a thought or 2.

L.C.:ai::ki:

mj
10-29-2003, 04:50 PM
There is an aikido move where you drop down and apply pressure to his shin bone into the knee to make your opponent collapse and drop. Thus allowing you to kick him in the nuts.

I don't actually think that would work though, it will just get you a worse beating.

Do we have anyone, exept for me, who has fought boxers?

My only advice would be...strike first. With ki and shin and tai, and everything else you have picked up. (kitchen table, school bus etc)

Other than that...get to a boxing club :)

Kevin Wilbanks
10-29-2003, 04:53 PM
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?

I just cant get this question out of my head:grr:
I wouldn't. The way I train Aikido, it wouldn't be of much direct use. As suggested above, anything but standing around in punching range would be worth a try. I won't get into a fight over words or silliness, so if it came to that, I'd probably be looking to do something devastating with my knife or a nearby found object/weapon.

I don't think there is any reason you couldn't use Aikido against a boxer, and I don't think you'd have to be a 30 yr. veteran/master to do it - you would just have to train for it. I think the idea that you should just train in some set traditional way for a really long time waiting for some mystical level of mastery to set in is silly.

The first step is to find yourself someone with boxing skills and/or get some Aikido partners and take some boxing lessons. Next, experiment with entries and moves at reduced speed and power until you find a few things that seem useful. Finally, put on a bunch of protective gear and practice nearer and nearer to full speed and power.

If you want to fight a real boxer (athlete), then I'm guessing you'd have to train intensely enough that you'll be taking some hard, painful punches on a regular basis, and the boxer would probably be experiencing minor joint injuries (at least). I wouldn't feel truly confident about fighting a bona fide boxer without training at a level involving serious pain and injury risk... which is one of the reasons I don't train to be a fighter.

SeiserL
10-29-2003, 06:15 PM
IMHO, good boxer are hard to deal with for any system.

That being said, keep your distance and flow with the jabs, slip it as you enter and take balance. Grabs tend to be difficult so just enter and throw Irimi-nage or Shiho-undo.

Nacho
10-29-2003, 07:54 PM
I totally agree with Kevin's opinion.

And I would like to add that tackling someone to the ground would require knowing wrestling or grappling ability, not only for the ground scenario but also the tackling is not that easy. Also it isn't easy to throw jabs to a boxer to reduce distance. If you have doubts about something you have to test it, practice it, in this case with someone who knows boxing.

Nafis Zahir
10-29-2003, 10:14 PM
If you truly want to know how to defeat a boxer - here it is. Don't try to defeat a BOXER. In aikido, as well as any other martial art, it is a grave mistake to try to figure out how to defeat another style. By doing this, you have already been defeated, because you are going to compromise your art. The boxer is going to do what he does - box. As aikido practitioners, you should just do aikido. Blend with him, take his balance and control yourself. Sure, it is good to study other forms of fighting to look at its strengths and weaknesses, as well as to know how to better defend against them, but ultimately, you must be true to your art. When I was in high school, boxers who fought wrestlers would box, and the wrestlers would wrestle. Just as you should never pre-plan techniques for self defense, like wise you should not do the same for boxers. Remember, boxing is linear, aikido is circular - that's our advantage.

ikkainogakusei
10-29-2003, 10:41 PM
Okay, wait...you defeat a boxer by inventing a time machine, traveling back to early greek times and convincing the first 'boxer' that they should try wrestling or dancing instead, then there will be no boxers, no confrontation with the boxer, thus an aiki way to surely beat a boxer!

Or...uh...just get out of the way, set ego aside and don't confront, and uh...cover your ears to prevent nibbling.:D

p00kiethebear
10-30-2003, 02:34 AM
Timing is everything.

Increase your ma ai, when he swings wider to reach you, enter in quickly, and precisly, performing an atemi to the inside of his arm (where all the tender vital parts of the arm are). Grab said arm and pull a quick sankyo.

I was told this is how o sensei defeated a boxer of sorts. Though i make no claims that the source is valid (friend)

Wil Branca
10-30-2003, 03:39 AM
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?

I just cant get this question out of my head:grr:

Suwari Waza might screw up a
boxer's footwork... ;)

:circle:

philipsmith
10-30-2003, 04:57 AM
I have two students who have boxed at an amateur level, in addition Shihan Smith (UKA) also boxed in his youth and I can tell you that a short jab is hard to defend against!

The only real option is to get behind them with a strong irimi or irimi-tenkan movement as then they have to turn around (OK so it only buys time)or you can apply an irimi-nage.

Really I try to practise with them a lot and accept that I may get hit now & then whilst trying to apply technique.

thisisnotreal
10-30-2003, 08:24 AM
interesting.

i asked my teacher this.

He told me to try to box him.

I did.

He kept ma'ai until i got frustrated and really had to enter.

Then he did irimi tenkan so fast he literally disappeared, and then he was behind me at which point it was over, as he could do pretty much anything he wanted.

i learned a couple of things from that, most importantly, don't fight the way someone wants to fight. Keep distance, and don't let the boxer play to his strengths, if he wants to hit you he will really have to commit, at which point I believe a strike to the elbow (or block) with irimi tenkan ended the confrontation.

what do you guys think?

josh

Kevin Wilbanks
10-30-2003, 08:34 AM
Josh,

Are you, or have you been, a competitive boxer at the amateur or pro level? My understanding was that the scenario was trying to handle someone with serious experience and training, not just boxing-style attacks. The form of the attacks are part of what makes a boxer, kick-boxer, or muay-thai player dangerous. However, much more important in relation to most martial arts, including the way most seem to practice Aikido, is that they spend extensive time in a competitive, all-out, full-speed, freely interactive fighting scenario - developing reflexes, timing, instinct, etc... They also train their bodies as athletes, not hobbyists.

aiki_what
10-30-2003, 09:09 AM
Kevin,

That just about sums it up as good as I have ever read.

Nice post.

L. Camejo
10-30-2003, 09:12 AM
However, much more important in relation to most martial arts, including the way most seem to practice Aikido, is that they spend extensive time in a competitive, all-out, full-speed, freely interactive fighting scenario - developing reflexes, timing, instinct, etc... They also train their bodies as athletes, not hobbyists.
This is very important. Not only the technique, but the training methodology is important as well. Learning a technique during resistanceless kata does not necessarily enable one to apply it under resistance and other physical/psychological pressures.

Aikido will work, but the individual must train in a manner that will allow it to work.

L.C.:ai::ki:

aikilouis
10-30-2003, 09:18 AM
Hey Kevin, if you already know the answer, why bother asking ?

fjcsuper
10-30-2003, 09:48 AM
About keeping maai and luring the boxer in...

Now I know why they have rings with ropes tied to 4 poles to keep people in...

I wonder... will keeping maai in the ring work? What if you get cornered, or reach the ropes?

Just being curious :)

Kevin Wilbanks
10-30-2003, 10:41 AM
Hey Kevin, if you already know the answer, why bother asking ?
You oversimplify. I suspected a particular answer and explained why. The option to be contradicted is still there.

Erik
10-30-2003, 11:56 AM
Mr. Shioda covers these topics much better in his book "Aikido Shugyo" which is now available from Shindokan books online.

Apparently he dealt with a boxer who challenged him during a demo, by dodging his jab, grabbing his OTHER arm and "flattening" him with shihonage.

From my dabblings with an amateur boxing practitioner, however, I conclude that this type of feat would require the skills of someone like Mr. Shioda.
I seem to recall that there was more than one story of this type which typically ended with, and I'm paraphrasing more than a little bit, it wrecked his arm. In theory, in some circles, aikido has a paradigm of doing minimal injury to an attacker. Had this boxer attacked Rickson Gracie he likely (and I'm sure Rickson has tweaked a few arms in his career) would have been choked out and emerged virtually unharmed.

So, if I tackle someone, and I subdue them safely, it seems to me that such would qualify as perfectly acceptable aikido.

Johann Enslin
10-30-2003, 12:11 PM
A boxer needs to be balanced to box. Unbalance him! Make him over-extend.

shihonage
10-30-2003, 01:38 PM
I seem to recall that there was more than one story of this type which typically ended with, and I'm paraphrasing more than a little bit, it wrecked his arm. In theory, in some circles, aikido has a paradigm of doing minimal injury to an attacker. Had this boxer attacked Rickson Gracie he likely (and I'm sure Rickson has tweaked a few arms in his career) would have been choked out and emerged virtually unharmed.

So, if I tackle someone, and I subdue them safely, it seems to me that such would qualify as perfectly acceptable aikido.
Actually that's exactly what I've seen Rickson Gracie do vs. a boxer in competitive environment.

He put on a boxing stance, projecting full intent of making it a boxing match, threw two punches/jabs and immediately tackled the opponent.

Nick Simpson
10-30-2003, 01:58 PM
I went two rounds with an amatuer boxer in march, just messing around in someones back yard. Id never boxed before and this guy I know challenged me cos he knew I did aikido, I was reluctant to except but when everyone is shouting you on its a little tough (peer pressure I know but I didnt leave it there, shameful shameful pride ;) ).

Id never boxed before and this guy was taller than me and had a much longer swing so I got battered in the face as I tried to keep my distance, which I found impossible as his arms were so long. I realised I had to get close so I entered, jabbed him, he went down and I pinned him on the ground where things got messy, It was anything go's pretty much, so I could hit him on the floor till I got pulled off. Second round he was really mad (understandibly so) so he knocked me off a patio and into a flower bed. After that we decided we had no will to continue any further so we shook hands and had a few beers.

I wouldnt say that was aikido (try doing shionage with boxing gloves on :p) but I did use aikido principles such as mai and kushuzi and it worked. I would never ever want to properly fight a boxer though, it hurts way too much!

bob_stra
10-31-2003, 02:56 AM
how would you use Aikido aggainst a Boxer?

Short response:

My aikido? I wouldn't.

Long Response:

There maybe be elements of aikido that can work "against a boxer". I can think of a few, mostly that have been mentioned here.

But you need knowledge / understanding of both fields to make that work. For example, all the fancy, beautiful, gliding foorwork in the world will not save you against sharp, continuos, aggressive, quick angled attacks.

But unless someone has thrown such an attack against you while you try to pirouette about, then you won't know.

IOW

(1)Understand aikido (2)Understand punching (ie: boxing) OR (3) Change the game (wrestle, kick, weapons, leave, run him over with a car etc)

"Straight out of the dojo / never tried it against a resisting opponent / no other experience" type aikido? Good luck with that ;-)

Wil Branca
10-31-2003, 05:14 PM
A boxer needs to be balanced to box. Unbalance him! Make him over-extend.
That's kind of what I meant by:

"Suwari Waza might screw up a

boxer's footwork... "

i.e.; no footwork = no balance.

:circle:

mattholmes
11-01-2003, 12:51 PM
I think the argument for training with/talking with boxers is has a valid basis. If the whole world looks like a nail to a man with only a hammer, then all the world's conflicts will appear to be appropriately solveable with aikido to an aikido practioner.

I think it's a mistake to assume that any one thing has the answer (or anything approaching it) to the world. I may be a really sharp philosopher, but there are still some questions better answered by a chemist. Both fields are useful and necessary.

I think this is an easy mistake to make in any martial art. Because we don't usually study it in a regular (cumpulsory) school setting, we are taught by individuals who want to keep people coming back. I have the greatest respect for people who teach the martial arts, so please don't misunderstand me, but most students are more likely to come back to study with a system that they think has an "answer" than they are to one that is more technically-minded. Something like an elite society.

I'm getting a bit off topic here, and I appologize. My point is this: aikido has the capability to be an effective and useful skill set in a self-defense (against a boxer, for example) situation. However, this capability can be enhanced exponentially by viewing the entire situation through more than one lense.

Matt

SeiserL
11-02-2003, 09:03 AM
IMHO, one of the advantages of the irimi-tenkan is to enter and blend, to see from the other person's perspective by trading places with them. The best way to deal with a boxer, or any art, is to gain a better perspective of that art. Train in boxing. Every art has its vulnerabilities.

Kensho Furuya
11-02-2003, 11:23 AM
As in every martial art, we must follow the old adage of "know your enemy." I don't think we should deal in idle speculation but, at the same time, there is too much to learn in Aikido to go off and learn boxing too. Also, the point of Aikido is not to compare ourselves with others, nor compete with others. This is against our custom. I have had much experience with boxers and many other martial arts. Most of my good friends are not in Aikido but other martial arts and I cultivated a strong friendly relationship with many other teachers and share their knowledge and experience. As you get to know other teachers of other martial arts, you find that we are all about the same and share the same experiences and problems and all feel the same way about everything. I admire boxers, kung fu teachers, kali eskrima, taekwando, etc. and often find that they are in great admiration and respect of Aikido too. . . .

More than anything, most Aikidoists are fearsome of boxers from what we see on tv or in the ring. More than boxing technique, we are more stilted by the power of the punches, speed and onslaught. As far as technique is concerned, boxing is, by far, more limited in what it can do than the numerous techniques and applications of Aikido.

One problem, I see is that, more often than not, when we practice against tsuki or munetsuki or yokomen-uchi, the uke attacks much too slowly for effective practice and, more often than not, does not make contact but stops mid-way. Generally, I like to see my students practice powerful strikes making contact (this has the additional benefit of teaching the student to move with his whole body and to issue power) - with no or limited impact - with the beginners. In more advanced practice, controlled or lightly controlled impact is permitted. I am not trying to change the dojo into a boxing ring, indeed. So generally, I like to say, "Contact, without impact." As the students get accustomed to dealing with a punch which is actually making contact with some impact, they eventually and very naturally learn to deal with it. It takes just as much effort, training and time to practice a technique against a punch which nevers comes and has no power and to practice against a punch which has striking power and is aimed at reaching its target (your face or body). In Aikido, we learn to look at all situations from "do-able" circumstances and not make it an "impossible" question to deal with. . . . . . Thanks!

Usagi Yojimbo
11-15-2003, 10:23 PM
The General Self-Defense tactics of Usagi-san!

1) Adopt defensive stance

2) Give opponet a swift kick the groin

3) Repeat step 2

4) Repeat Step 2

5) Repeat Step 2

6) Repeat step 2

...

John Longford
11-16-2003, 06:59 AM
I do know from expreience that Aikido works against someone trying to punch you, but a skilled boxer who can tell?

One thing is for certain Atemi would be a waste of time, boxers are used to being hit.

I once witnessed a very real fight between a semi-pro boxer and a karate 1st. kyu. The karate guy lost not because he did not react but because the boxer just shrugged off his attacks and kept coming.

The best advice I can give is keep training, swallow your ego and the chances are you will never have to find out.

Atomicpenguin
11-16-2003, 10:45 AM
Well said, Mr. Furuya.

AsimHanif
11-24-2003, 03:00 PM
This is a topic near and dear to my heart. Let me first say that of course we are talking about both technically sounds participants. I can only speak from my own experience (and I am be no means a great boxer). I do have over 20 years of pro and am experience in boxing and kickboxing. But assuming that a boxer is vulnerable to kicks is a big mistake because most boxers know how to close the distance (irimi) very fast. Also (and this is the big one), boxers are conditioned for contact and recieving atemi will not deter unless it is in a vital area (which of course can go either way).

I have to add though- one thing that bugs me. I have been asked to attack nage (nage including Shihan level) and have been asked why did I stop my attack short?. Two reasons - One, I was asked to attack not hit (which is very different in boxing terms. And two - as a boxer you are trained to keep your balance (one point, center, etc) until in perfect position to deliver one or more blows.

I love Aikido but I do think we tend to miss the point sometimes when it comes to training with a martial mind. Sometimes (IMHO) we are to theoretical or philosophical.

And this is coming from a Ki Society member:-)

Alfonso
11-24-2003, 03:46 PM
why don't you bring it up?

I made a fool of myself asking Amdur sensei about this, actually about jabbing, noncomited strikes.

he basically demonstrated the same response Rick sensei had shown me. Again, not kihon but principled, response. Atemi, blending, redirecting.

I made a fool of myself because there isn't anythin esoteric about this issue. Want to experiment, try it? Want to experiment with a pro boxer , go ahead.

What's the big deal anyway? Why is this important?

Why do you practice Aikido?

There are many other ways of becoming an athlete if that is what you want.

kironin
11-24-2003, 03:49 PM
I have to add though- one thing that bugs me. I have been asked to attack nage (nage including Shihan level) and have been asked why did I stop my attack short?. Two reasons - One, I was asked to attack not hit (which is very different in boxing terms. And two - as a boxer you are trained to keep your balance (one point, center, etc) until in perfect position to deliver one or more blows.
Keep them honest Asim, keep them honest. ;~}

and if you whack one of them (black belts), just tell them Craig in Houston said to keep it honest.

former VKS member,

Craig

AsimHanif
11-27-2003, 12:05 AM
I'm not sure if I understand Alphonso or if he understood me but I'll give it a shot.

I do train with boxers still with the focus as Craig said "to keep me honest".

Also I don't think is a contradiction to be a good athlete and a good aikidoist (although that was not my point).

My point was a pretty simple one (maybe I made it sound bigger than it actually was) - a trained martial artist is a trained martial artists regardless of system. A committed attack to me is a balanced attack. As an aikidoist it would be incorrect to not be centered in my execution. As a boxer the same applies. Whether nage or uke.

We all practice for different reasons. That is a personal choice. The main thing is not to force our views on others. I practice aikido because to me it is a method of all around self improvement, besides the fact that I think it is a beautiful art. I don't practice to hit or injure people (ego) but I think it is inappropriate to assume that a Hidy Ochiai or a Roy Jones Jr attack is not committed. I use them only as technical examples.

I must add that my instructor is very good about this and we both learn from each other. And I sometimes train with judo players who have a totally different energy.

So it's not about being aggressive or non-committed. Every attack is different so each response should respect that.

I hope I explained that clearly and humbly.