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Ari Bolden
10-22-2003, 03:42 AM
The kiai probably doesn't come easy or natural for most. Do you remember your first KIAI? Was it so soft it sounded like a chirp? Were you a little shy to really explode? Was is so loud that everyone stopped? Did you shout "HAI YAAAA" instead?

Aikido is about extension. The kiai is part of that extension.

To generate real explosive ki, the kiai is the focal point. One of my students bites his lower lip and his face becomes red (a sure sign of keeping your ki bottled up).
That equals a loss of power.

Don't strain...let it flow...and so then will your uke...and technique.

Cheers
Ari B.

kung fu hamster
10-22-2003, 08:43 AM
When we first moved into our new dojo there was a yoga studio above us that had a weekly class for pregnant ladies. The yoga people came to our teacher to ask him to tell us to quit yelling like that, I think they were afraid the kiai's would scare the fetuses. Though our piercing shouts were music to our teacher's ears, anyway he wanted to be considerate and he asked us not to kiai during the time frame of the pregnant ladies class. Funny, I don't think they ever complained about the loud booming noises we made as our bodies repeatedly hit the mat... maybe they figured we deserved the pounding... :)

akiy
10-22-2003, 10:25 AM
Then, again, there are those who would say that kiai need not be vocalized...

-- Jun

Ari Bolden
10-22-2003, 01:39 PM
Jun,

Expenditure of breath or simply exhaling could /would be sufficient.

There are as many kiais as there are aikidoka.

Ari

markwalsh
10-22-2003, 03:18 PM
Question:

Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai? I have never been taught to "say" a particular thing, and I think the varity one hears is interesting. Personally I favour a "heeee".

h/ vowel sounds seem the most common.

Mark

x

Ari Bolden
10-22-2003, 04:41 PM
yep.

SeiserL
10-22-2003, 07:11 PM
Then, again, there are those who would say that kiai need not be vocalized...
Aiki Koan: What is the sound of a kiai not vocalized?

If an Aikidoka kiais in the woods, and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

BTW, we (Tenshinkai Aikido) use kiai in our warm-ups but tend not to verbalize it during training. Curious.

sanosuke
10-22-2003, 08:48 PM
during warm up we do kiai on funekogi undo (boat rowing exercise), but on practice we don't usually shout but we exhale loudly instead.

Mark Balogh
10-27-2003, 10:18 AM
Question:

Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai?
I was on a course once where the teacher was asking his uke (who was making quiet kiai's) whether what he was saying was japanese. I think what he mean't was 'What are you saying?'. In kotodama there are different meanings for each sound and if used in Aikido some would be appropriate at certain times and not at others. Basically what I'm saying is it is a science in which few people are knowledgable. So in summary I would not agree with above question. HOWEVER, I have heard it said that once at a certain level, these sounds will come out naturally!!!! :confused:

Chuck Clark
10-27-2003, 12:27 PM
Question:

Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai?
No. The kiai (manifested, focused energy that is extended) must match the intent that focuses the force. Intent that is meant to be sharp and explosive for instance can not have kiai (audible or inaudible) that is a "sigh". Intent to do something very softly and subtle cannot be accompanied by an strong "yaaaah!"

Chuck.Gordon
10-28-2003, 01:49 AM
Would everyone agree that all verbalisations are OK for kiai?
Nope.

As cousin Chuck commented, in the traditional budo systems, kiai is taught integral to the kihon and there are often very specific sounds associated with specific events. These sounds are not the kiai, however, they are training aids designed to assist you in creation of kiai.

Now, on the other hand, if you're just exhaling forcefully in order to empty the lungs, tighten the diaphragm, etc -- which is NOT generating kiai, by the way -- then probably just about any sound will do.

The other Chuck

thisisnotreal
10-28-2003, 07:23 AM
kiaijutsu.

Is this a martial art solely devoted to kiai?

Apparently the kiai of winter *is* silent...

from: Ellis Amdur

@ http://www.aikidojournal.com/new/article.asp?ArticleID=153

This is a statement that I have 'sat with" for many years. It is remarkably similar to the teachings of other martial arts which explain methods of using kiai (aiki with the characters reversed) to the same end. Kiaijutsu is usually assumed to be a loud shout, but that is only its most trivial expression. First of all, kiai is always a psychophysical method to organize one's own energy and will. At the same time, it is a method of affecting another's inner world. This can be for a variety of purposes: to understand another's intentions, to deceive them as to your own intentions, or to neutralize an opponent's strong points by manipulating spacing, timing, even breath. Kiaijutsu can be amazingly sophisticated, taking many years to master. For example, in the Jikishinkage-ryu, a mid-Edo period school of kenjutsu (sword fighting), there are four kiai each of which embodies a season. Not only do they sound different (winter, indeed, is silent), but the processes engendered within and between the expressor and opponent are as radically dissimilar as the seasons themselves.

PaulieWalnuts
10-28-2003, 08:33 AM
I remember reading that Osensei said you cant do aikido without Kiai. Also has anyone seen any footage with sound of Osensei with out Kiai

kung fu hamster
10-28-2003, 09:00 AM
Hi Josh,

That is very interesting, is there any other literature or information existing that you know of which pertains to the Jikishinkage hojo and it's seasons/kiai?

Thanks for the previous info, more please...!

:)

Bronson
10-28-2003, 09:53 AM
The author of the article, Mr. Ellis Amdur, is an occasional poster on this very site. You can contact him through his profile (http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=2590) here on AikiWeb.

Bronson

Chad Sloman
10-28-2003, 10:29 AM
What different kiais do y'all use out there? In Yoshukai Karate, the kiai we use is something like "hussss!" although sometimes during sparring or breaking I'll throw out a "haaahh!" or a "hi yaaahhh!". In Atarashii Naginata we call our strikes which could be considered a kiai such as "men!", "sune!", "do!", etc... I've never had an aikido instructor talk specifically about kiai, but it is not necessarily discouraged either. Although they may have and I just missed that class. I personally think the loud verbal kiai helps me a lot. I feel more focused when I do. It also reinforces proper breathing so that I exhale during strikes.

kung fu hamster
10-28-2003, 11:55 AM
Any one of these - 'Yah!' 'Ei!' 'Toh!' is recommended to us, we use those in our zen training too... our teacher likes the focus and 'kime' that a sharp kiai helps to bring out in strike or attack, and I remember him telling me once not to use a certain high-pitched shriek (which I personally find quite comfortable), as it indicated that my energy was all up in my throat and shoulders, he told me to let the kiai come from my hara instead; it seems he can tell by a person's kiai how their center/aikido is refining and stabilizing.

Ron Tisdale
10-28-2003, 11:55 AM
What different kiais do y'all use out there?
ha -- cutting

ya -- throwing

toh -- striking/atemi -- also for recieving

ei -- pinning, atemi, cutting with bokken

I usually try to 'seal the breath' at the end of the kiai, so they often sound as if they have a 'p' on the end (as in 'hap').

Word of caution...I have known strikers who wait to see if someone uses kiai...so they can time a hook, cross, or uppercut to break your jaw when you use kiai.

Ron

markwalsh
10-28-2003, 01:38 PM
Cheers for the help guys, much appreciated.

My seasonal kiai would have to be:

Autumn/ Winter - ooohhh (cold)

Spring - raaahhh (hormones)

Summer - sluuuurp (Stella)

Mark

x

Pretoriano
10-28-2003, 08:53 PM
The thing is that theres an esencial difference between the sounds that comes out when a man "lives" on the upper part of his body than that ones from its lower abdomen that occurs when his lives "planted" and in close relation to earth.



Something that comes from the center is very solid, due to the fact that we Westerners mostly live in the upper part of our bodies always racionalising everything with a concept of "I" that is even bigger, makes our kiais sounding like screaming noises rather than beatiful sounds kiais.

A natural kiai comes from a relaxed concious center and it prevents those states of crispation which are originated on a "tensioned self" I believe that every correct kiai filling the above plus spirit, intent and proper unification get us closer to our very essencial form. Thats it.

Praetorian

Ted Marr
10-29-2003, 09:56 AM
Really, I'm surprised that any Aikidoka kiai. Well, maybee not surprised, but a little confused/dissapointed. You see, as I heard it from a previous instructor, although the Kiai has a venerable tradition, and even a couple of good stories about Grand Old Masters (tm) who did incredible things with theirs (chopped wood, killed small animals, knocked their opponents physically back), the modern kiai has more pragmatic roots.

He said that it was something that mostly started with Funakoshi teaching his Karate to schoolchildren in Japan. He wanted to make sure they were breathing at the proper times. Which is to say, breathing out as they strike. While this is easy to do in a small class, when you have lots of them, all standing in a line, it's easier just to tell them to scream their fool heads off. You can tell if someone isn't shouting easier than watching for their breathing.

While I am not qualified to comment on the veracity of this history, I do know that a kiai causes you to tighten up, at the very least around the diaphram and hara, and usually elsewhere as well. This is actually antithetical to channeling good power into your strikes, and certainly just a bad idea in general if you're practicing a relaxed, flowing martial art. I know I have enough tension to get rid of without adding to it.

That being said, one would hope that at least Aikidoka would kiai "correctly", which is to say, from the center. I've run into a few people, especially a few TKD black belts who kiai'd like a particularly vicious squirrel being strangled. Squeaky, high pitched, and with utterly no force behind it. They said that it was meant to scare your opponent in a sparring match. Personally, I would have been more scared if they had kept their mouths shut.

Not that I have an opinion on the matter

Ted

Don_Modesto
10-29-2003, 10:54 AM
Really, I'm surprised that any Aikidoka kiai. Well, maybee not surprised, but a little confused/dissapointed. You see, as I heard it from a previous instructor....it was something that mostly started with Funakoshi teaching his Karate to schoolchildren in Japan.
You heard it wrong. KIAI has long been a part of martial traditions in Japan long antedating Funakoshi. Btw, Ueshiba Morihei, Saito, and Saotome (as I have witnessed in person or on video) all KIAI.

Some teachers actively discourage it. I've heard from Kanai's students that he doesn't want to hear it, e.g. Don't know the rationale there.

Don_Modesto
10-29-2003, 10:58 AM
I usually try to 'seal the breath' at the end of the kiai, so they often sound as if they have a 'p' on the end (as in 'hap').
Were you doing that practicing KOSHI GURUMA at Kondo's seminar?

This technique opened up a new avenue of training inquiry for me, actually. I couldn't understand the category "KOKYU" to which Kondo ascribed it: "Aren't they all KOKYU?" I reasoned. I then began playing with the exhalation and stopped stopping it (as you say you do above.) It seemed to make the technique much stronger.

Ron Tisdale
10-29-2003, 10:58 AM
I actually know one MAist whose favorite kiai is based on the scream of a monkey...he constricts the throat to produce it. Doesn't sound beautiful, but he freezes **my** blood with it.

RT

Bronson
10-29-2003, 12:42 PM
Don't typically kiai with a verbalization. Will sometimes do a sharp exhalation from the diaphram.

Side story. One of my students is an ex TKD student. He was telling me that in his old school they were given sheets with written descriptions of the kata in Korean. He said that there were always people who would shout "KEEOP", which is the Korean word for kiai, because that's what was written in the description :D

Not very funny but I'm very tired from a visit to the emergency room early this morning which I'll probably relate in the current poll discussion...thanks for letting me babble :)

Bronson

Pretoriano
10-29-2003, 09:34 PM
I actually know one MAist whose favorite kiai is based on the scream of a monkey...he constricts the throat to produce it. Doesn't sound beautiful, but he freezes **my** blood with it.RT
----------------------------------------------

That monkey throat sounds are just screaming negative polar sounds... The solid (yang) positive sounds are those that are made it ventrally exteriorizing positive energy through unification.

It is just at the beginning that ones believes that it is used mainly as a surprise factor. At the end should be used as a magnetic procedure with different aplications.

Does somebody knows something that wish to share about the unaudible types of kiai?

Praetoriano

Manuel Chiquito Anderson

Venezuela

Ron Tisdale
10-30-2003, 04:04 PM
It is just at the beginning that ones believes that it is used mainly as a surprise factor. At the end should be used as a magnetic procedure with different aplications.
Ahh, actually, the person in question is highly ranked in aikido and koryu, and spent about 20 years training in japan. I wouldn't classify them as doing anything related to japanese MA as "in the beginning", or "a surprise factor".

Ron

Ron Tisdale
10-30-2003, 04:07 PM
Were you doing that practicing KOSHI GURUMA at Kondo's seminar?

This technique opened up a new avenue of training inquiry for me, actually. I couldn't understand the category "KOKYU" to which Kondo ascribed it: "Aren't they all KOKYU?" I reasoned. I then began playing with the exhalation and stopped stopping it (as you say you do above.) It seemed to make the technique much stronger.
Oops, sorry, missed your post...

Yep, I was sealing there too. Still do, since there are kokyu methods for 'stealing the breath' of your opponant, and strikers can knock the wind out of you if you don't control your breathing. But I'll play around with it a bit, and let you know. Thanks for the tip!

Ron

Ron Tisdale
10-30-2003, 04:15 PM
Really, I'm surprised that any Aikidoka kiai. Well, maybee not surprised, but a little confused/dissapointed.
Oh, that's too bad...
While I am not qualified to comment on the veracity of this history,
I can see that...maybe accurate for TKD, but not for aikido...
I do know that a kiai causes you to tighten up, at the very least around the diaphram and hara, and usually elsewhere as well.
Well, maybe YOU tighten up when you kiai...please don't assume others do as you do...

Actually, maybe you should do some research, and not just take that teacher's word on it. For instance, watch some film clips of Ueshiba [start with aiki-budo]. You might just be surprised...

Ron

Pretoriano
10-30-2003, 08:33 PM
Ha! Tisdale, I say good for him! my two last post resembles same.

Read this:

I also know that the effects that are produced on the physical plane (area) are similar to those on the mind plane, that means ej. that when you use your mind to create disorder and caos to those around you to indulge egotistical desires, it is the same as if you were screaming at people on the streets...

May sound weird but isnt false.

Research comes in a second place, I learn practising my own kiais and also how strong (spirit) mas people does, youll never hear weak people doing beatiful war sounds, these kiais are for high spirited people.

Praetorian

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2003, 07:50 AM
Praetorian,
indulge egotistical desires
has nothing to do with anything **I've** been talking about...

I actually think it is more egotistical to come on the board and make assumptions about the practice of others...

:)

Ron

Don_Modesto
10-31-2003, 08:22 AM
I had a teacher in school who had the very annoying habit of asking us to write as if we were explaining our ideas to our 85 year old Aunt Maude. That is, no technical jargon and no expectation that she had a clue as to what we were talking about. Could I trouble (annoy?) you for the same, please?

Would you explain the meaning or the meaning as related to KIAI of the words with an asterisk below (*)?

Thanks.
That monkey throat sounds are just screaming negative* polar* sounds... The solid* (yang) positive* sounds are those that are made it ventrally* exteriorizing* positive* energy through unification*.

It is just at the beginning that ones believes that it is used mainly as a surprise factor. At the end should be used as a magnetic* procedure with different aplications.
negative-

polar-

solid-

positive-

ventrally-

exteriorizing-

unification-

magnetic-

Don_Modesto
10-31-2003, 08:25 AM
Yep, I was sealing there too. Still do, since there are kokyu methods for 'stealing the breath' of your opponant, and strikers can knock the wind out of you if you don't control your breathing. But I'll play around with it a bit, and let you know. Thanks for the tip!
Thanks, back. I have been pretty narrowly focused on NAGE when playing with the KOKYU/KIAI. I hadn't even considered getting hit during one of those long exhalations. Food for thought (oomph!)

Ron Tisdale
10-31-2003, 10:44 AM
An interesting side not[e] on 'toh'...An ex Ki Society instructor I know taught that kiai as a protection against getting hit in the solar plexas. Its typically (yoshinkan and Daito ryu) used while entering with atemi. I've found that strong entries can sometimes get you hit on the way in, and the 'toh' kiai does indeed aid me in recieving blows without any effect (from the blows).

Ron(shite and uke as one) :)

Pretoriano
10-31-2003, 08:30 PM
Tisdale no confusion here, I was not trying to adress "indulge egotistical desires"

to YOU but as a general attitude of modern and man in general(but including myself)... no ofense, no apologies, cut the crap please.

I owe you Don Modesto, weŽll have time to discuss on this later, a Northamerican friend of mine gathered the block families all together to celebrate Haloween, I ate too much I guess, I cant think right know...

Tomorrow after karate dojo all day

trainning- shore Ill start the aunt jergon.

Praetoriano

Pretoriano
11-02-2003, 10:11 PM
Yes, people along their lives develop certain relation with earth, I mean our bodies

to earth, this varies from nothing, inconcious relation, to a very strong-concious

work.

The goal from this is not for to wipe peoples butt, but for to gain the base: vitality integration,strenght,stability,equilibrium,

potency,serenity, calmeness, and radiation. Three centers we use for to percieve mental and emotional waves: plexus, heart and upper head. I guess the real base is in the spine, the hara could act as a sintesis center, the solar center should compensate lower forces that exist in every human being (soul, personality), the goal we should aspire as Aikidokas is to take this to the heart, were the real no agression occurs (no fear, no cowardy), were one actively seeks the group armony, the impersonal acts, etc.

So wouldnt be correct to say:

That besides the brain wich percieves through fives senses, there are so called "mini brains" that can act above or below in the wave length.

Negative: pasive, femenine, like food, beverages, the soul, etc.

Polar: extremes, the oposites.

Positive: asociated to the sun, to the breathing, big simpatic, etc

Solid: wel established, not easy breakable

Ventrally: down, down, if you dont aspire to more, you end farting.

Exteriorising: showing, to the outside, positive cuality.

Unification: union, confluence, positive cuality.

Magnetic: related to magnetism, iman.

.-Far from good,I need a dictionary I guess.

.-Feel free to interact

ps: Sorry, but yesterday I have strenght barely enough to take out my clothes.

Praetorian