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Steven Tame
10-15-2003, 12:26 PM
I was injured about 2 weeks ago taking ukemi from my Senseis san-kyo.

At first I thought it would be ok cos I had a similar experience with yon-kyo and my wrist was fine after a couple of days.

Now it has been 2 weeks and my elbow is still painful when I take ukemi from shiho nage , 1-4 kyo... I have no idea what is wrong with my elbow... I already cancelled my yon-kyu test next month.

I can not afford to use a doctor/hospital because I have no health insurance and am basically living on a very strict budget.

What should I do? Continue training and do not take ukemi on that arm/elbow? Rest completely from Aikido and hope the problem goes away?

Any advice would be much appreciated...

ian
10-15-2003, 12:35 PM
Find another club where they won't injure you!

It is very bad form for your sensei to injure you - I would be quite distraught if I did this to one of my students. How the heck did you get injured from yonkyo!? Is it the rolling/flipping?

Really you should see a doctor (is there no one you could pay for a single visit?) Alternatively I would stop training if the pain is bad. You could try taking cod-liver oil (or glucosamine is very very good for joint problems and very effective but quite expensive), though it could be a ligament problem instead. Basically rest it - I've had a painfull elbow from stressing it in the wrong direction (do you do shiho-nage where you have to flip over?) - after around 8 weeks of rest it was OK.

Also, will your aikido insurance will cover medical costs? If you do not have aikido insurance this suggests your instructor is very dubious.

In our dojo we have a risk assessment procedure which means that all injuries have to be recorded, and any methods to prevent the injury in future have to be instigated.

Be careful out there!

Ian

ian
10-15-2003, 12:37 PM
P.S. make sure your instructor knows what has happened and explain the situation to him. If he brushes you off - leave the club.

Ian

Anat Amitay
10-16-2003, 12:34 PM
I agree with Ian.

Also- you didn't say, if your elbow swelled or colored. If it hurts only on a specific range of motion or all the time, even while resting. All this makes a difference if you have an inflammation or stretched/ crushed something.

I suggest rest, and if you train tell your sensei about it so he and all the others will go easy on that hand. When at home or just working (don't know what you do) try to keep the elbow warm by wrapping it in a scarf or something. Did you rub anything on it like Ben- Gay, Tiger Balm? though they are better for muscles and you seem to be talking of more boney parts (though you didn't specify).

It's your life and health, and I don't know the rules in your country but it's a big risk doing MA's with no health insurance.

Take care of yourself and be careful.

Anat

DGLinden
10-16-2003, 03:40 PM
For most sports related injuries there is a standard formula. RICE Rest, Ice (lots) Compression (after swelling fades) and Elevation. If you are in pain then do not practice. If you are in pain then do not practice. If you are in pain then do not practice. Do you understand?

Janet Rosen
10-16-2003, 04:16 PM
You have a soft tissue injury--probably tendons--and these take 6 to 8 wks to heal.

If you continue to train or otherwise work the injury, it may never heal and instead of an acute soft tissue injury you will have a chronic injury. This is avoidable and you will never forgive yourself if the elbow/using the hand gives you trouble for the rest of your life....

Rest, ice, both very very good. In my experience, compression to this area may not speed healing but may give you a false sense of security so you go out and re-injure it before its healed....others may have different experience.

I definitely suggest not doing any weapons work until you are pain free as the cutting and turning movements involved with bokken and jo will probably aggravate this injury.

sanosuke
10-16-2003, 08:31 PM
you can either rest, or slow the pace of your training (your injury might take longer time to heal, though), if you decide to keep on training, make sure before training you rub your elbow with pain reliever/balm and massage it thoroughly, then put on elbow guard so that it won't be so painful. And don't forget to compress it with ice after training. Do light stretching on your elbow before entering the mat, that way your elbow is already warmed up before you warm up your other body parts.

But, if the pain get worse, i'm afraid you gotta take some break.

good luck and get well soon, steven

akiy
10-16-2003, 11:16 PM
you can either rest, or slow the pace of your training (your injury might take longer time to heal, though), if you decide to keep on training, make sure before training you rub your elbow with pain reliever/balm and massage it thoroughly, then put on elbow guard so that it won't be so painful.
Hmm... From what I've heard, all that the "pain relieving" ointments and such is cause irritation on the surface (ie the skin) and doesn't penetrate in to do any good. Supposedly the irritation just distracts from the "real" pain and doesn't do too much. Also, wearing a brace/pad over such ointment doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

I agree with Janet's caution that if you ignore this and keep training, it may very well become a chronic injury. Heck, I'd rather be off the mat for a while than to affect my training (and, for some people, even off the mat movements) for the rest of my life...

-- Jun

philipsmith
10-17-2003, 02:51 AM
There has been a couple of studies recently that suggest anti-inflammatory gels are helpful in soft tissue injuries (Ibuprofen or sodium diclofenac)but there really no substitute for proper medical advice.

As for the comments such as find another club where they wont injure you; this assumes that the injury is deliberate; accidents do happen from time to time.

Steven Tame
10-17-2003, 04:56 AM
firstly san-kyo and yon-kyo are the wrist-twist and wrist pin techniques.

Basically my elbow feels fine unless I take ukemi on that arm ie. shiho nage,1,2,3 or 4 kyo,kote gaeshi to an extent.

If shiho nage is done gently it does not cause me any pain. Same for ikkyo. 2-4 kyo are always painful.

I want to keep training so I think I will explain to the senseis that I can not use my left arm....

I think I will invest in some health insurance although it is a bit late on this occasion.

I think Janet is right about my type of injury

damn 6-8 weeks is a long time but I certainly will regret it if I get a permanant problem.

As for the Sensei.... there are many Sensei at Hombu. In the begginers class we hardly ever practice san-kyo or yon-kyo. This was pretty much my first time to take ukemi from san-kyo. I think the sensei way overestimated my ability. I only have Go-kyu.

Kevin Wilbanks
10-17-2003, 09:23 AM
As for the Sensei.... there are many Sensei at Hombu. In the begginers class we hardly ever practice san-kyo or yon-kyo. This was pretty much my first time to take ukemi from san-kyo. I think the sensei way overestimated my ability. I only have Go-kyu.
I'm guessing this is exactly the kind of thing that inspired Ian to tell you to go elsewhere. A sensei whipping an sankyo on a beginner that causes a serious tendon or ligament injury is a heinous event. "Way overestimating" your ability is not the kind of mistake a Sensei, or any Aikidoist should make. It means he/she wasn't perceptive enough to see where you were at, wasn't connected and paying attention to your response, or just didn't care. None of these are acceptable for someone who puts themselves out as a teacher.

It would be one thing if you tripped or something slipped, or if something like this happened during rough play between people at a similar level. This was an expert misusing a beginner. If the same thing happened here in the states to me, I would explain the situation to the teacher. If they did not offer to pay for treatment, I would ask them to. If he/she refused and/or I did not like the response, I would talk to their superiors. If the medical treatment was sufficiently expensive, or if it interfered with my work, I would consider legal action to recoup the damages.

TheFallGuy
10-17-2003, 12:11 PM
Well, people have mentioned this but try the R.I.I.C.E. program. (Rest, Ice, Ibuprofen, Compression, and Elevation.) The ice is good for a short time after the event of the injury. Then you can try using a little heat on it after a couple weeks. This helps stimulate blood flow to the area and enhances healing.

The way I see it 6-8 weeks is not a long time anymore. I did a partial seperation on my shoulder last fall, and although it is mostly healed, it still aches everyonce in a while. Actually, it has had a positive effect, I can't muscle my way through techniques, so I have to learn how to use my body properly.

Since it hurts especially when you do 2-4-kyo avoid them at all costs. Bite nage if necessary. Give your body the best things in order to heal properly.

And since you're there in Japan find someone who does Kiatsu. That might help get things back in working order. (My gf has fibromyalgia and gets spasms occasionally. When I do a kiatsu on her it helps relieve the pain and loosen the contracted muscles --gives me extra points!)

Speaking of Kiatsu (sorry don't want to hijack the thread - the police might shoot me on site) but does anybody know where I can learn more about it? I've read Koichi Tohei's writings on it. I'm more intereseted in technique rather than the stories like "It helped my golf game." Which I did to my sisters father-in-law and it helped him go out and play golf the next day. You can Private Message me on this or send me an email. Thanks!

TheFallGuy
10-17-2003, 12:14 PM
Kevin, I just read your sig and honestly, that is quite disturbing. If suicide is really an issue with you please chat with some who loves you (Dojo sensei/cho, family members, etc.)

Kevin Wilbanks
10-17-2003, 03:08 PM
Frank,

I'm glad to see that you are also a Dorothy Parker fan.

Peter Goldsbury
10-17-2003, 05:32 PM
I was injured about 2 weeks ago taking ukemi from my Senseis san-kyo.

At first I thought it would be ok cos I had a similar experience with yon-kyo and my wrist was fine after a couple of days.

Now it has been 2 weeks and my elbow is still painful when I take ukemi from shiho nage , 1-4 kyo... I have no idea what is wrong with my elbow... I already cancelled my yon-kyu test next month.

I can not afford to use a doctor/hospital because I have no health insurance and am basically living on a very strict budget.

What should I do? Continue training and do not take ukemi on that arm/elbow? Rest completely from Aikido and hope the problem goes away?

Any advice would be much appreciated...
You are asking for trouble if you are living in Japan without any form of health insurance and it is a condition of training in my own dojo here that people take out insurance against injury and also sign a waiver before they train.

The Aikikai Hombu Dojo actually has limited insurance against injury and so you should tell someone about the injury. In any case not to say anything about it at all helps no one.

The Aikikai Hombu has a reputation for being somewhat rough and people like Doshu and the members of the Instruction Department sometimes need to be made aware of this.

Best regards,

Steven Tame
10-18-2003, 01:42 PM
Ok I will try to talk to someone about it on Monday.

What exactly should I say cos it has been about 2 weeks now....

At first I continued training thinking it was no big deal but then I realised the problem must be more serious when the pain didn`t go away.

Who do you advise talking to cos my Japanese level isn`t that good.