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villrg0a
10-08-2003, 12:20 AM
Guys

Is there a difference between grappling and wrestling? Is grappling and shoot(?) fighting the same. Is aikido grappling?

I've practicing aikido now for more than a year but have not encountered an attack similar to a grappling style where they go for your two legs as made famous by Gracie Brazilian Jujitsu. Sure we could request sensei to ask ukes to attack us this way, but I really dont dont how to handle it.

The reason for my curiosity is that more and more people are into ground fighting and mixed martial arts these days. I was wondering how will i survive against 4 attackers if:
1 is practicing Thai Kickboxing and attacks me with combos, 1 is a wrestler who will try to suplex me, 1 a grappler who will shoot and go for my legs, and the last guy an escrima/kali practitioner who will go for a combo of stick strikes? if all of them attacks at the same time, what to do? MY number one problem would be the grappler..

Any input please?
:circle: :square: :triangle:

Abasan
10-08-2003, 02:32 AM
"if all of them attacks at the same time, what to do? "

Run like hell...and hope one of em ain't a ninja who'll throw a shuriken at you.

Seriously though :), why would you encounter the four sorts in a fight? If you want to test your skills (1 yr notwithstanding), why don't you spar with a judoka or wrestler for that matter. Maybe you'll lose, maybe not... whatever the case maybe as you continue your sparring, you will eventually learn techniques that can counter theirs and vice versa. Then you may want to try on the other guys. Of course this will take time, and unless you're one seriously rich martial artist fanatic, it won't be feasiable in a short amount of time.

You could instead keep on practicing hard in your aikido. and learn something else altogether that would prevent you from ever getting into fights.

fjcsuper
10-08-2003, 02:43 AM
I also have thought about a grappler attacking with a takedown.

I think a kaitenage would be effective in such circumstances... because both his arms are outstretched, and his posture is lowered. So, enter either side of uke, and execute Kaitenage.

By theory, it should work... if you can react properly as he is going to surge forward.

About the 4 attackers... I think it's impossible to launch their own specialty attacks simultaneously. So I think either some of them try to grab you first, then they do something with you. Or maybe they would encircle you, and some of them try to incapicitate you swiftly with a strike.

Normally... Aikidokas don't get into such deep shit. Unless you said or did something to them...

:D

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 02:47 AM
As i've said most people in my country are into MMA where grappling is the main ingredient, and that includes criminals. Of my particular concern is the shoot fighter, i understand their defense is pretty tight and they tend to charge in kamikaze style. my irimi might not work, i could grab his collar while heis on his way to my legs and do a tenkan, but that range might be too close for him to do his stuff and before i realize it im already down in his world.

any clubs out there practicing these kinds of attacks?

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 02:53 AM
kaiten nage might work provided he's got his arm stretched out. but some grapplers cover their face in an anticipation of a kick or knee strike, in this case it will be diffult to execute a good kaiten nage.

i also dont want that scenario to happen to me, but in this world you'll never know...

BKimpel
10-08-2003, 03:00 AM
As i've said most people in my country are into MMA where grappling is the main ingredient, and that includes criminals.
Paul (paw), you wanna "tackle" this one (he he, just kidding man - just a little ribbing).

Actually there are a few guys on this BB that either practice BJJ, MMA or have done some cross-training so hopefully they will chime in and give some advice.

Bruce

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 03:05 AM
thanks bruce

sanosuke
10-08-2003, 03:19 AM
The reason for my curiosity is that more and more people are into ground fighting and mixed martial arts these days. I was wondering how will i survive against 4 attackers if:

1 is practicing Thai Kickboxing and attacks me with combos, 1 is a wrestler who will try to suplex me, 1 a grappler who will shoot and go for my legs, and the last guy an escrima/kali practitioner who will go for a combo of stick strikes? if all of them attacks at the same time, what to do? MY number one problem would be the grappler..

step away from their line of attack....and adjust your ma-ai also....

Aristeia
10-08-2003, 03:28 AM
All right, if you are being attacked by 4 people, let alone 4 trained fighters your best defence is to offer them your wallet, your jacket and anything else you have of value. Failing that bend double and kiss your ass goodbye, no fighting system is going to help you.

In terms of defending a shot, a version of kaiten nage *could* work, and I've heard of aikidoka pulling it off in an MMA class. But generally it's low %. If you really want a strong defence against this attack you need to learn to sprawl (basically block the shoulders as you throw your pelvis to the floor). The best place to do this is an MMA school. If you are concerned about a criminal element who are likely to attack you with MMA type moves, if that's your motivation for training, Aikido's the wrong place for you. If you have other motivations for training but would like to be able to handle an MMA-er as well, you should look at cross training.

Jim ashby
10-08-2003, 04:43 AM
Someone "shoots" in for your midriff to take you down on the street WHERE THERE ARE NO RULES AND REFEREES calls for a hard elbow strike (or a series) to the back of the neck until the assailant stops. Sometimes there is not an "Aiki" way to deal with an attacker.

Have fun.

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 04:57 AM
thank Michael

Id do the same thing and give 'em my wallet etc., if their intention is to rob me, otherwise I could just run. However, I was wondering how our training especially in randoris help us out in such a rare situation.

Yeah that sprawl thing might just work. I have background in 2 other arts aikido is my 3rd and i just love it and would like to be able to continue training for a long, long time.

Nope Im not training to handle criminals, I would just like to handle MMA if encountered. I've read from somewhere that most cross-trainings would actually hurt your training instead of being able to help you. Instead do a concurrent training say if you're style is iwama instead of taking up tkd take up yoshinkan. I really dont know much about their difference.

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 05:03 AM
Someone "shoots" in for your midriff to take you down on the street WHERE THERE ARE NO RULES AND REFEREES calls for a hard elbow strike (or a series) to the back of the neck until the assailant stops. Sometimes there is not an "Aiki" way to deal with an attacker.

Have fun.
This could be my problem James, I think I am looking for a way out the "aiki" way.

paw
10-08-2003, 06:16 AM
Paul (paw), you wanna "tackle" this one (he he, just kidding man - just a little ribbing).

I'll try. I fear this will be long.

Grappling is generally (but not always) used to describe arts where the participants are close enough to grab, manipulate joints and throw (this doesn't mean atemi is not allowed, per se). I would describe judo, aikido, wrestling, sambo/sambo and bjj as grappling arts.

Striking arts generally (but not always) attempt to keep a certain distance using footwork and posture so that blows may be delivered with great force using hands, elbows, kicks, headbutts and knees. I would describe karate, tkd, san shou, and boxing as striking arts.

Shootfighting is a dubious term. It may refer to either the sport (shooto or shootfighting) where participants are allowed to strike, grapple and throw their opponents or it may refer to the hybrid style itself. Shootfighters generally (but not always) have some type of boxing or karate base for their striking, and a form of wrestling (with knowledge of submission holds) as their grappling base. As grapplers, they tend to favor leglocks and generally will attempt submissions regardless of the position they are in (but not always).

Does that make sense so far?
I've practicing aikido now for more than a year but have not encountered an attack similar to a grappling style where they go for your two legs as made famous by Gracie Brazilian Jujitsu.

First off, a year isn't a long time to train. Chances are you mean a calendar year, not a year a mat time. For example, at the end of 2003, I'll have trained for a year. But if I attend class 3 times a week for an hour each time, that's only a 156 hours....which isn't a lot of time. As long as you're making progress over time, I'm sure you're learning at just the right pace.

Second. It depends who's attacking. Shomen from someone who's been training for 3 months is no where near as daunting as a shomen strike from a 5th or 6th dan. With a year a training, you can handle a shomen from someone who's trained for 3 months, right? But shomen from a shihan...no offense, but you'll probably get knocked silly. So keep realistic expectations.

Personally, I think sprawling is the way to go. To me, it's intuitive and instinctive to a certain degree. Other people don't find that to be the case. Probably the best advice I can give you over the internet is to find a good wrestling (freestyle wrestling) club. They will teach you how to perform and defend wrestling takedowns. If there are no good freestyle wrestling clubs in your area, try asking a judo club about "pick ups" -- the double leg take down (biana in bjj, morotegari in judo) is one of judo's techniques, but not used as frequently as wrestlers -- or try a MMA club and asking them for help. The point is I'd strongly recommend cross-training for 6 months - a year.

Multiple attackers is a whole other issue, and frankly much more difficult and complex. I think George Ledyard has an article about randori on the site. If not, try contacting him directly or saving for his randori intensive seminars. I've not trained with Mr. Ledyard, but he has a solid reputation and his posts should be required reading on the forum.

Hope this helps....think I wandered....

Regards,

Paul

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 06:32 AM
Paul everything you said makes sense. I'm an expat here in Saudi and my repat is getting nearer. I have about 2 mos leave before I return to work.

I was planning to take up aikikai or yoshinkan back home to enhance my present skills and probably learn more. Now, considering the limited time I have to train (2 mos unless they give me a special course) - do you think it will benefit me better taking up BJJ instead of aikikai/yoshinkan?

And yes, in your opinion who's better off in ground plays wrestlers or BJJ's?

Many thanks again.

paw
10-08-2003, 07:48 AM
Romuel,
Now, considering the limited time I have to train (2 mos unless they give me a special course) - do you think it will benefit me better taking up BJJ instead of aikikai/yoshinkan?

I'm not sure what to suggest. I cannot speak to yoshinkan from personal experience, I've been in aikikai. However, from personal experience, there's a wide variation in aikikai schools. Depending on where you train bjj, in two months all you'll really learn is how to tap, especially if you have no previous groundwork experience.

If it were me, I'd pick which ever was most convenient and looked like the most fun.
And yes, in your opinion who's better off in ground plays wrestlers or BJJ's?

It depends.

Traditionally, in wrestling v bjj, the wrestlers get the takedown and control the top positions. The bjj'er fights from the guard as they are generally unable to sweep the wrestler or reverse positions. Wrestlers tend to be more athletic (faster, stronger, quicker, solid aerobic and anaerobic endurance, etc...) than bjj'ers. Bjj'ers have much better submission skills and manage their energy better (they know when and how to relax).

In the US, I think children are better off in wrestling, as there's solid, consistant coaching, numerous, well run wrestling programs, and wrestling creates a foundation for athleticism and a strong work ethic. You simply cannot argue with success, and the US consistantly produces world class wrestlers on a very limited budget with a fraction of the athletes that are available to "professional" sports.

The big issue is that wrestling really isn't available as anything other than a sport. For example, in the US, outside of Gene Lebell or Tony Cecchine, I don't know of anyone who teaches catch as catch can wrestling (old style wrestling that included submissions).

In contrast bjj has submissions from day one, and is usually run more "professionally" than other martial arts. By that I mean it is more likely the head instructor gets all their income by teaching bjj. While that does mean higher fees, it also means a nice facility and an instructor who will go the extra mile and coach each and every student they have one on one (generally....not always true. Like anything else there are some very bad instructors out there). Bjj is also more available to adults than wrestling.

I've never wrestled, so if it were me, as an adult, I'd jump at the chance to train at good wrestling club --- but ultimately I'd be back at bjj. I hope that helps.

Regards,

Paul

L. Camejo
10-08-2003, 07:53 AM
Hi Romuel,

As a person who cross trains in Judo, and MMA a bit, I'd say the kaiten nage idea is one of the better things an Aikidoka may be able to do in the event the shoot is one where the grappler's arms are outstretched.

In the event that the face/head is protected from strikes or the distance is closed too quickly on the Aikidoka, the sprawl is a good initial response as said earlier, but from this one can easily slip an arm into what we call Ude Hineri in Shodokan (think of the locking version of kaiten nage, across the elbow and controlling the shoulder). As the Ude Hineri is applied, one bends the knees out of the sprawl and moves to the outside of the grappler and drops into suwari waza to secure the pin on the shoulder as the grappler spirals around him towards the ground. If the pin is applied correctly and tightly enough initially, resistance on the part of the grappler can end up with a dislocated shoulder.

Personally, I think Aikido can be applied to many MMA situations, but we have to be able to free the mind and allow the natural adaptations to our Aiki techiques appear. Chances are they will not work in the traditional kata application, modification may be necessary without losing the "aiki" part of it. Ma ai, awareness, timing and kuzushi are very important here.

Here http://www.ttac.0catch.com/hiji.htm one may get an idea of how the technique is applied, from the point where Uke's arm is outstretched. Instead of a throw though, one drops into suwari waza and applies the lock across the back. Hope this helps.

Personally I don't think any particular style of Aikido will address this need exactly (though I understand Yoseikan Budo has a Judo element). I can say from experience though, that if you want the feel of someone lunging at you with or without a tanto and resisting your technique all out (which may be close in principle to a hip shoot), check out a Shodokan dojo.

Just my 2 cents.
L.C.:ai::ki:

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 07:58 AM
id probably try to visit the aikikai and BJJ schools and ill decide based from my oberservation. I dont think there are any legitimate wrestling schools in my country.

You're very helpful Paul - Ill let you know the outcome....

villrg0a
10-08-2003, 08:08 AM
Hey Larry we do practice that kaiten nage locking version a lot but mostly on our traditional attack mode only, have never really done it if attacked in non traditional mode.

We have a practice tomorrow, Ill give everybodys advise a try and let you know...

Cheers and have a nice w/end to all (opss sorry our w/end here falls on Thurs & Fris)

jxa127
10-08-2003, 08:19 AM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but what about men nage -- throwing somebody by their head?

My instructor did this to a wrestler who went for his legs. As the guy came in, my instructor did a tenkan while placing his hands on either side of the guy's head. During the tenkan, my instructor then turned his hands (and thus the guy's head) over. The wrestler's body followed and he flipped completely over.

We practice this technique every so often and I can see how it could be effective.

Otherwise, a sprawl combinded with a series of atemi may do the trick.

This is, of course, assuming that you can't get off the line of the attack.

Regards,

-Drew

Ron Tisdale
10-08-2003, 03:00 PM
Someone "shoots" in for your midriff to take you down on the street WHERE THERE ARE NO RULES AND REFEREES calls for a hard elbow strike (or a series) to the back of the neck until the assailant stops. Sometimes there is not an "Aiki" way to deal with an attacker.

Have fun.
Not to be offensive, but in my experience, this will not work with someone doing a proper shoot. I'd doubt it would work on someone heavier doing a football style tackle. But hey, maybe it works for you...

Ron

Ari Bolden
10-08-2003, 05:22 PM
Teaching aikido, Daito ryu, and grappling at my school, I think James Ashby hit the nail on the head: do what you can (elbows or otherwise to survive).

Aikido is very hard to execute from your back or on the ground. Other skills must be taught/learnt in order to deal with this situation.

It is arrogance to assume that an aikidoka would never find themselves on the ground. Our training is fluid and deals with attackers who attack in a committed way.

I really encourage you to cross train with someone who isn't an aikidoka. A wrestler, judoka, or bjj player. They will feign attacks, maybe shoot in for your legs, grab on to you in strange ways.

Having said that, aikdio deals with multiple attacks much better than the above mentioned arts. Aikido REALLY gives one the understanding of kazushi, timing, and body movement.

My two cents...

Ari Bolden

Aristeia
10-08-2003, 05:41 PM
thank Michael

Id do the same thing and give 'em my wallet etc., if their intention is to rob me, otherwise I could just run. However, I was wondering how our training especially in randoris help us out in such a rare situation.
The problem is you've set up an impossible scenario. Surrounded by 4 motivated trained attackers, you are *very* unlikely to get out. Randori is a great exercise and teaches alot of things about both technique and how to handle multiples. But even you you can handle a 4 man randori in training, don't go thinking you can handle even 4 untrained attackers outside of the dojo. The *huge* majority of people cannot.
Yeah that sprawl thing might just work. I have background in 2 other arts aikido is my 3rd and i just love it and would like to be able to continue training for a long, long time.

Nope Im not training to handle criminals, I would just like to handle MMA if encountered. I've read from somewhere that most cross-trainings would actually hurt your training instead of being able to help you. Instead do a concurrent training say if you're style is iwama instead of taking up tkd take up yoshinkan. I really dont know much about their difference.
I would argue the exact opposite. The more similar two styles are, the more harmful crostraining may be. For example if you are doing both iwama and yoshinkan, you run the risk that your kote gaeshi becomes a hodge podge of the two and perhaps less effective than either. Because your constantly asking your self which version of each technique to do. Whereas if you were to cross train in say Aikido and BJJ it's pretty simple. If I'm on my feet I'm using Aikido, if I'm on my back I'm using BJJ.

Wil Branca
10-08-2003, 05:44 PM
Of my particular concern is the shoot fighter...i could grab his collar while he is on his way to my legs and do a tenkan, but that range might be too close for him to do his stuff and before i realize it im already down in his world.
As long as his head's down & his arms are around the outside of your legs, nothing beats a good knee to the bridge of the nose (* If you can grab the back of his head & drive his face into your knee, so much the better).

An attacker will tend to lose his composure once his face has exploded. After that, feel free to subdue him with any Aikido technique you feel like.

;)

Wil Branca
10-08-2003, 05:54 PM
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned this yet, but what about men nage -- throwing somebody by their head?

My instructor did this to a wrestler who went for his legs. As the guy came in, my instructor did a tenkan while placing his hands on either side of the guy's head. During the tenkan, my instructor then turned his hands (and thus the guy's head) over. The wrestler's body followed and he flipped completely over.

We practice this technique every so often and I can see how it could be effective.
Yes! In pro wrestling there is a similar technique taught to me by Killer Kowalski:

Hook the inside of your wrists around the attacker's temples. Twist as you roll, sit-out, or sprawl.

I suppose that to an Aikidoka, with the objective being to blend with an attacker's motion, this might feel more "natural" than my "knee him in the face" technique?

Aristeia
10-08-2003, 06:07 PM
As long as his head's down & his arms are around the outside of your legs, nothing beats a good knee to the bridge of the nose (* If you can grab the back of his head & drive his face into your knee, so much the better).

An attacker will tend to lose his composure once his face has exploded. After that, feel free to subdue him with any Aikido technique you feel like.

;)
Unfortunately it's one of those things which seems good in theory but is actually nigh on impossible to pull off against someone with a good shoot. Which is why you don't tend to see alot of it in limited rules fighting, it's not a high percentage response (and in fact lifting a leg off the ground against someone trying to take you down turns out to be a really bad idea)

Wil Branca
10-09-2003, 01:28 AM
Unfortunately it's one of those things which seems good in theory but is actually nigh on impossible to pull off against someone with a good shoot. Which is why you don't tend to see alot of it in limited rules fighting, it's not a high percentage response (and in fact lifting a leg off the ground against someone trying to take you down turns out to be a really bad idea)
Fair enough. After reading through the other posts a second time, I saw your sprawl suggestion & posted my second response. Please disregard my first post if you're planning on entering any MMA competitions.

In a streetfight situation against a sloppy run at your legs, as opposed to a well executed shoot, a knee really isn't all that difficult to get away with.

Aristeia
10-09-2003, 03:39 AM
Fair enough. After reading through the other posts a second time, I saw your sprawl suggestion & posted my second response. Please disregard my first post if you're planning on entering any MMA competitions.

In a streetfight situation against a sloppy run at your legs, as opposed to a well executed shoot, a knee really isn't all that difficult to get away with.
Agreed. I think an average joe's attempt to tackle in the street would make most Aikidoka's eye's light up with glee....:)

villrg0a
10-11-2003, 02:23 AM
read you loud and clear michael

villrg0a
10-11-2003, 02:30 AM
thanks wil and all the folks who responded to this thread. I tried doing the sprawl thing during our practice session this w/end, this is my first attempt so I could not say i did it well, my uke is a lot bigger than me. Although Ill keep on practicing the sprawl technique and might try to combine or do the other suggestions one at a time.

I think I will consider BJJ when I get home.

God bless to you all!